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D&D Miniatures Changes Explained
Last Post 27 Oct 2008 09:42 AM by Corim Danex. 65 Replies.
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Bert the Troll
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23 Oct 2008 03:50 PM
Or soon to be, it seems they are about to stop the speculations..... D&D Miniatures Changes Explained article

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23 Oct 2008 04:03 PM
D&D Miniatures Changes Explained


As many of you know, we announced some big changes to the Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures line on Tuesday. If you missed it, the announcement is here.

I want to follow up on the announcement that was made and take the time to shed some light on why we made these changes. I’ll start by giving you some background and then follow with some Q&A that I’ve pulled directly from the message board threads that we have been following.

I really need to step back a few years to give you the big picture. 2006 was a successful year for the entire D&D gaming line and D&D Minis played an important role in that success. In 2006 we released War Drums, a new minis starter, the War of the Dragon Queen Huge set, Blood War, and two D&D Icons Dragons. Although fans were embracing the new minis lines, 2006 was also a year when we started to see the D&D Minis line strain under the increasing costs of manufacturing. Labor, shipping, materials, tooling, and production costs were all creeping up so that in late 2006, after much analysis and many meetings, we made a decision to increase the price per pack to insure quality and profitability were maintained within the line. When we did the price increase our goal was that it would sustain the D&D Minis for at least two to three years. Unfortunately, we could not predict the sharp increases that we’ve seen in manufacturing costs over the last 12 months.

That same year we started to see a decline in sanctioned skirmish play. Typically sanctioned play will wax and wane monthly, so over the long haul we want to see general stability or growth. Even prior to the 4th Edition announcement in August 2007, we were seeing steady declines in sanctioned play.

With increasing costs and decreasing play we began to consider how we could turn the ship around. We explored many options from both the production side and the consumer side. On the production side we began to model minis in CAD (computer aided design). In the beginning, CAD is more expensive than modeling in clay but over time it will save us money as we can re-shape and re-skin models much the way they do with action figures. On the consumer side, 4th Edition was a big shot in the arm for the whole D&D line. In many ways both these efforts worked, but the "wolf of increasing costs" was still lurking at the door and the minis line continued to suffer. It became increasingly difficult to maintain the high standards of quality with the increasing costs. Every set was an exercise in fiddling with the deco-ops (the paint steps on the minis), sculpts, and tooling in an effort to maintain the quality.

Earlier this year senior management began looking at the issue. They spent months looking at the business from the bottom up, examining a multitude of options, from a fixed SKU non-randomized business model similar to that used by producers of metal minis, to changes to the randomized model including price increases and/or reduction of minis per pack.

Where all this netted out was that there was no silver bullet answer that would slay the wolf at the door, so we were faced with two options: continue with the current model and eventually succumb to the wolf, or charge the wolf head on and score a critical hit. In the end we chose the later and here we are today.

As we announced on Tuesday, we are launching a new line of miniatures products with roleplayers in mind. We believe that this is the best way to sustain our miniatures product line.

That is an in-depth explanation that I hope adds some context to the news. So now onto the questions.

Amira
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Default Re: DDM: Player's Handbook Heroes

I'm just a little concerned that the price point is the same for the 5 fig semi-randomized boosters as it is for our current 8 fig randomized boosters (14.99 US). Maybe they'll be making the minis better quality? Better sculpts and paint jobs? I hope so, because I already miss those 3 extra minis.

Why the change from 8 miniatures to 5 miniatures per booster?

When we set out to re-imagine the Dungeons & Dragons Miniatures line, our goals included increasing the quality of the product, dealing with the rising costs associated with producing the line, and optimizing the product as a D&D Roleplaying Game accessory. To that end, we are providing fewer figures per Monster Manual-themed booster, but these figures are of a higher quality. In effect, each booster contains two rare-quality figures (the visible Large figure and the randomized rare figure). In general, we’re providing nearly a 50% increase in paint steps per figure, which makes even the common and uncommon figures in the set look better, adding more vibrancy and detail. We have also decreased the overall set sizes to make collecting all of the miniatures in a set easier to accomplish. With a visible Large figure in each box, you also get some choice as to the figures you are purchasing, and each miniature is a monster miniature—making each booster perfect for a Dungeon Master seeking monsters to fill encounters with. Finally, the stat cards included in each booster have been redesigned to use the friendlier Monster Manual-style RPG statistics layout so that Dungeon Masters can use the cards for in-game reference.

Keithric
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Default Re: DDM: Player's Handbook Heroes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaukrie View Post
do I have this correct?

1 box of heroes – 3 minis, $11?
1 box of monsters – 5 minis, $15?

So, $26 for what I used to get for $15?

If I'm right about heroes being of higher quality, then no - you're getting less lower quality minis for more cost. I mean, let's be honest, you can get commons for a quarter each, so if we're doing the equivalent of trading 2 commons for 2 rares, then that's a big difference.

Though it's difficult to compare by rarity in non-randomizes heroes packs.

I actually wonder if it'll be a lot more about using the monsters packs than the heroes ones. Though the heroes ones would be great for commander, letting you guarantee a certain core of your band then using the monsters for the rest. Hmm.








Why is the price per miniature higher for the player character figures?

With the Player’s Handbook Heroes Series One figures, we’re providing miniatures of rare or better quality in visible, fixed packaging. In addition to the increased quality per figure—equivalent to three rare figures per pack!—you get to buy exactly the figures you need to match your player character concept (or villain concept, if you’re a DM). Add to that the brand new, unique, nonrandom character class power cards available in these packs, and you get an unparalleled value for players.

SquareKnot
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Default Re: DDM: Player's Handbook Heroes

Quote:
My question is this: Do these new boosters include DDM Skirmish stat cards?

It didn't sound like it from the announcement, unless "D&D Dungeon Delve" means skirmish game stat card in some twisted way. I took the term to mean "can be used with the organized play Delve games easily."

What does this mean for the skirmish game?

Wizards of the Coast has chosen to concentrate its D&D miniatures-creation efforts on an accessory line optimized for D&D Roleplaying Game use. November’s release of Demonweb will be the last new set that includes skirmish statistics. We will continue to update all miniatures stats from previous sets to the current D&D Miniatures ruleset as promised, with the conclusion of that process scheduled for mid-2009.

In addition, official sanctioning of D&D Miniatures skirmish events will cease right after D&D Experience in February. We hope to see skirmish play continue at the grassroots level, using the hundreds of miniatures produced for the game over the past six years and encouraged by the passionate fan sites that exist for the D&D Miniatures skirmish game.

The skirmish game has many dedicated fans, and we appreciate the years of enthusiastic support that these players have shown to the line. Unfortunately, despite this enthusiasm, the number of skirmish players has been dropping steadily over the past couple of years. We had hoped that improvements implemented during 2007 and 2008 would change that trend, but they have not accomplished enough toward that end. At this point, we can no longer justify the design, development, and production resources required to support the skirmish game.

Iswald
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Default Re: DDM: Player's Handbook Heroes

Does this imply that the Feywild and the huge set for next year will have their minies moved into the new sets? Of course, only medium and large minies are in the Dangerous Delves line. No small minies for you! Is another set planned to incorporate the huges?

What does this mean for the Feywild set?

The Feywild set will not be released. We needed to make room for this new approach, and early 2009 is the best time for that to begin. However, many of the sculpts that were in the process of being created for Feywild will find homes in the new D&D Miniatures products, as appropriate, and with the increased quality levels we’ve established for the new line. Each set will include Small, Medium, and Large figures, as has been the practice since the inception of D&D pre-painted plastic miniatures.

As for Huges, yes we have a set planned for the Summer of 2009. The Huges in that set will be the visible minis, including a Hive Mother Beholder and some Dragons. More details to come!

Solik
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Default Re: Its offical WOTC will put out non random minis.

You guys are focusing on the wrong thing. Yes, visible minis are great. But look deeper.

THEY ARE RELEASING NEW CHARACTER POWERS IN THESE MINI BOXES.

That means, you have to buy these boxes of minis to get new rules for creating characters.

I am praying that these cards actually match the minis rather than being randomized. Because... if they're randomized... you can actually call it D&D: The Gathering without being a troll.

Will the unique power cards in the Player’s Handbook Heroes packs be available anywhere else?

As I mentioned above, the power cards in the packs will match to the minis in the pack so the distribution is not random. These brand-new character class powers will be added to the D&D Compendium and D&D Character Builder databases on D&D Insider. Eventually, they may see inclusion in a D&D game book.

We know that this is a bittersweet announcement and for many of you it downright stinks. All of us at Wizards are thankful for the great years of D&D miniatures play that we’ve had and we are excited about the possibility the future offers.

We hope this helped to answer your questions and we thank you for your continued support.

Sincerely,

Scott Rouse
Senior Brand Manger
D&D Games

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23 Oct 2008 04:25 PM
Skirmish is dead. Long live RPGs!

Seriously for those who loved the sanctioned play my sympathies. It always sucks to lose something you love.
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23 Oct 2008 04:31 PM
Wow, worse for skirmish than I had imagined. I had figured they'd give it a slow death by having downloadable cards only,
but this was as swift as a knife to the throat.
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23 Oct 2008 04:35 PM
Wow.....

I do feel sorry for the skirmishers.  It's good that they are planning on re-formatting the other sets.  However I do feel they are going to lose a chunk of customers over this.  As far as the quality for the not-Feywild set..... I'm going to wait until I see it in stores.
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mazra
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23 Oct 2008 04:54 PM
Hi Everyone,

It sounds like "improvements implemented in 2007 and 2008 to change the trend," means in other words, 2.0 SIMPLY DID NOT WORK!

Are there anyone here really surprised by this? Was 1.0 really broken? Making another whole new game system was not going to bring new players to the game.

The first rule to increase sales is to market your product. Did WotC market DDMs? With the exception of the FLGS and a few web sites, did anyone see or hear about DDMs elsewhere? The 80's stigma associated with Dungeons & Dragons looks to have ultimately killed Skirmish. I have seen SWMs at Target. I have seen MtG at both Target and Walmarts. I have NEVER seen anything associated with DDMs at a Target or Walmart. The long coats of the old D&D stigma likely prevents these huge discount department stores, the largest retailers in the world, from accepting the DDM line in their stores for fear of any kind of customer backlash.

What WotC needs to do is work on the Dungeons & Dragons image. The fact that our heroic Soldiers stationed around the world play Dungeons & Dragons, a game that emphasizes HEROES, may be a good place to start retooling the image.

Later,

Mazra

P.S. Bert the Troll was this rant OK?



Bert the Troll
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23 Oct 2008 05:11 PM
Posted By mazra on 10/23/2008 4:54 PM

{snip}

P.S. Bert the Troll was this rant OK?




Absoultly. Heck, You could go further and still not be close to limit.

Thank you for your consideration.
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23 Oct 2008 05:36 PM
ok but now that DDM/skirmish is dead how long until 4.0 goes down?
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23 Oct 2008 05:41 PM
Posted By Wolfgang on 10/23/2008 5:36 PM
ok but now that DDM/skirmish is dead how long until 4.0 goes down?

I know here in chicago, of my gaming groups - approximately 300 or so, there is virtually no-one who wants to play 4.0.
Then again, there weren't that many of them who played DDM at all either. I tried, change is bad i guess.

Time to get my THAC0 charts out again :)
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23 Oct 2008 05:58 PM
I have mixed feelings personally. I was just starting to get into skirmish and had put a lot of effort into trying to build it at the LFGS. Without sanctioned play or retailer support from WotC, I don't think I'll continue even at a grassroots level. I can use my Monday nights for much-needed homework instead.

Demonweb will be my first and only DDM release. Kinda bittersweet. I love opening boosters, sorting cards, figuring out what I do and don't need, setting up trades, opening those boxes that show up in the mail... I'm a little worried about what sort of hit trading might take.

I'll still buy cases of Demonweb as I need the trade fodder to get my Aspect of Demogorgon and my Beholder and other things, but once I've got my collection pretty well finished, I'll be moving to after-market methinks. If I'm going to be looking for RPG-specific figures, I would rather just buy them flat-out.
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23 Oct 2008 06:09 PM
Offering to continue with restatting the old sets while simultaneously ending the sanctioned play is simply a kick in the nads if you ask me.

oh well. It was fun while it lasted. maybe I'll break out my Spellfire cards. or (gasp) take up Tragic: the Garnering.

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23 Oct 2008 07:01 PM

Very interesting indeed.  I have never played skirmish, but I can absolutely understand the feelings of the many who do.  Losing something that you enjoy is hard to take.  It would be like if they discontinued the line entirely, then as a RPG'er I would be very sad!

However, with many out there having such an abundance of minis (including myself) the change may not be too bad.  Yes the cost per mini has increased, but in the long run I feel that I may actually be saving money.  With case buying I usually end up with at least 5+ extra human, elf, dwarf, etc minis which I have no need for.  I usually buy around 3 cases along with singles and spend around $300 per set.Â

Recently I usually only desire 1 of these human, elf, dwarf, halfling types considering that I have collected enough sculpts of these type to be used in mass already.  By being able to pick up one box of heroes I have all I need for the price of about $11 or less.  I am then done.  No need to buy numerous boosters to find that 1 human rare that I need.  Yes you could also buy them individually, but you would pay about $5-$9 depending on the mini.  So now I have them all for $11 and no need to either trade or buy singles.  I still do enjoy trading, however.

As for the monsters it may not be as great considering most will still be random and if you need a number of one creature type you will still have to buy additional boosters, trade or buy singles.  However, with the large being the visible one you at least get a choice of what you will be getting with this.Â

All in all I am not entirely disgusted with the change and feel that it may have actually helped me curb my collecting needs and not have a box of about 1000 unneeded minis for trade.  I have so many extra dwarf, elf, human, gnome sculpts that in truth nobody wants because they have just as many duplicates as I and they are not that often wanted in huge numbers.

I am curious to see what the minis look like and am glad that the line will at least continue.  I do think this will significantly hit the trading market, especially with the new minis.

Give me more MIND FLAYERS!

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23 Oct 2008 07:23 PM
Tis dead, tis dead, the game is dead; alas the mighty is fallen.
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23 Oct 2008 07:32 PM
Feywild will be my first and only DDM release.


no it won't demonweb will be
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23 Oct 2008 07:39 PM
"With a visible Large figure in each box, you also get some choice as to the figures you are purchasing, and each miniature is a monster miniature—making each booster perfect for a Dungeon Master seeking monsters to fill encounters with."

So what would that mean for non-monstrous humanoids to build armies with (i.e. Axe Soldier, Shieldwall Soldier, Royal Guard)? Would they have to be collected through the heroes packs (a VERY expensive proposition)?
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23 Oct 2008 07:41 PM
Ouch.
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23 Oct 2008 07:42 PM
Posted By AnarionZelle on 10/23/2008 7:39 PM
"With a visible Large figure in each box, you also get some choice as to the figures you are purchasing, and each miniature is a monster miniature—making each booster perfect for a Dungeon Master seeking monsters to fill encounters with."

So what would that mean for non-monstrous humanoids to build armies with (i.e. Axe Soldier, Shieldwall Soldier, Royal Guard)? Would they have to be collected through the heroes packs (a VERY expensive proposition)?


Hadn't thought of that wrinkle. Ugghhh.
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23 Oct 2008 07:45 PM
The skirmish game has many dedicated fans, and we appreciate the years of enthusiastic support that these players have shown to the line. Unfortunately, despite this enthusiasm, the number of skirmish players has been dropping steadily over the past couple of years. We had hoped that improvements implemented during 2007 and 2008 would change that trend, but they have not accomplished enough toward that end. At this point, we can no longer justify the design, development, and production resources required to support the skirmish game.

Now...... Didn't Dreamblade come out a few years ago?  Could it be the skirmish players dropped due to Wotc putting out a competing mini game?
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23 Oct 2008 07:59 PM
How many visible larges will be seen in a set?

I would guess four. All uncommons.

How many boosters to a case?

I would guess still 12.

If distribution was even in a case, then you would get 3 each of the large visible uncommons. That might not be too bad.

But if you were buying individual boosters, then you may cherry pick the large visibles more. A cool large visible booster may sell out quicker than another less desirable large visible. FLGS may be stuck with boosters of less desirable large visible uncommons. I could see this causing a problem. You go into the FLGS and all they have is boosters with Giant Slugs as the visible and you already have three of them.

Later,

Mazra




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23 Oct 2008 08:13 PM
It amazes me that no one at Wizards (or probably more accurately, at Hasbro) seems to realize that, unlike say Clue or Monopoly, when you change the rules to an existing game like D&D or DDM, you alienate a portion of your current players. The rules changed with WarDrums in 2006, which alienated some players. Then DDM2 came along and alienated a whole LOT of people (particularly when they thought all of their old figs were wiped out at once). So, of course skirmish participation declined.... they did it themselves.

As far as I know, they never wiped out half a dozen or more previously released sets at once in Magic. So, why would they do it with DDM?

And for production costs, how come McFarlane can do incredible paint jobs on huge figs and only charge $20, but Wizards can't? Or Safari Inc doing an incredible phoenix for $9.... or.... there are a lot of examples I could give. There's something someone missed somewhere. But I can't see that anyone will be able to change the corporate decision at this point.


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23 Oct 2008 08:44 PM

Well this was in the wind.

Can't really say I'm sorry. I enjoyed 1.0 skirmishing (and enjoyed it more after the changes in Aberrations) but I never really got into 2.0. I do feel bad for the skirmishers out there but clearly if the numbers were falling then the game was gonna go. Star wars minis still seem to be going (with some changes) so I guess it really is mostly the D&D skirmishers who have been leaving the hobby.

For me skirmishing was never more than an aside. The main thing was always the RPG.

The only thing I'm not sure of is with the increasing costs and the success of 4.0 why not stop producing minis altogether.

Without the skirmish crowd to boost sales I don't think the RPG market alone will be big enough. I mean I'll pick up a few boxes but not a lot.

I'd think they'd be better off pushing cheaper options such as character tiles like they have in the D&D RPG starter set. Nice quality tiles on thick paper are easily as nice as minis and a lot easier to care around.

Then things could go back to the way they were with third parties producing most of the RPG minis for mini fans and wizards could focus on the books.

However as it stands I am quite curious about the breakdown in the 40 mini monster manual sets. I was guessing...

6 visibe larges
12 rares
12 uncommons
10 commons

This would mean in theory one case of 12 boosters could get you the whole set...assuming extraordinary luck or organization.

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The Fortress of Solitude

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23 Oct 2008 10:40 PM
Posted By AnarionZelle on 10/23/2008 7:39 PM
"With a visible Large figure in each box, you also get some choice as to the figures you are purchasing, and each miniature is a monster miniature—making each booster perfect for a Dungeon Master seeking monsters to fill encounters with."

So what would that mean for non-monstrous humanoids to build armies with (i.e. Axe Soldier, Shieldwall Soldier, Royal Guard)? Would they have to be collected through the heroes packs (a VERY expensive proposition)?

Scott, I'm afraid that you are correct.  Merric once said that randomized packaging was the only road to cheap miniatures.
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West Valley City, Utah

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23 Oct 2008 11:12 PM
Posted By mazra on 10/23/2008 7:59 PM
How many visible larges will be seen in a set?

I would guess four. All uncommons.

How many boosters to a case?

I would guess still 12.

If distribution was even in a case, then you would get 3 each of the large visible uncommons. That might not be too bad.

But if you were buying individual boosters, then you may cherry pick the large visibles more. A cool large visible booster may sell out quicker than another less desirable large visible. FLGS may be stuck with boosters of less desirable large visible uncommons. I could see this causing a problem. You go into the FLGS and all they have is boosters with Giant Slugs as the visible and you already have three of them.

Later,

Mazra




Actually, they explained how the visible things will be.  They will be rare equivalents.  All of them.  Large?  Perhaps.  They said that the huges in the huge set would be the ones in the visible window, including dragons.

They also said that in the first monster set that there will be exactly 8 different visible minis--all of rare equivalence.

Before we panic too much about price, notice that the 5 mini boosters will have:
2 rares
1 uncommon
2 commons

I don't think that is a bad deal.  If the sculpts and paint are rare quality for the rares, and the others are even improved as they mentioned, this could be very good.  I personally look at the two minis they showed as rare quality and think they are definitely high quality  in sculpt and paint.  I will still want to see all the minis previewed and not the 1/3 to 1/2 they have been targeting recently.  Especially to demonstrate the high quality.  Since there is no skirmish side, I don't see any reason to keep it secret.Â

I personally don't see that large is necessarily always better for the rares.  I think it matters what it is.
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West Valley City, Utah

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23 Oct 2008 11:15 PM
Posted By minatoman38 on 10/23/2008 8:44 PM

I was guessing...

6 visibe larges
12 rares
12 uncommons
10 commons

I don't know about the other slots, but they said 8 visible rares in the first monster set in the article.

"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
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Netherlands

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24 Oct 2008 12:40 AM
I really don't like losing Skirmish. But on the other hand, I was leaning a bit more towards RPG over skirmish anyway the past months. Glad I never gave RPG up though...

Double feeling, sad bout skirmish, but not that disturbed. And I do think the new packaging could work out pretty good.

They haven't lost me yet as a customer,

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24 Oct 2008 01:16 AM
Well, that's it. We'll always have RP, I guess, but the changes will probably turn quite a few consumers off with the higher prices... Yes, I realize you're likely still better off buying fewer figures that you really want, but I don't think everyone considers that.

Overall, weird times.
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Netherlands

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24 Oct 2008 04:16 AM
I must say, I am surprised (not negatively btw) by the lukewarm responses this all creates on the forum. People seem to have been much more vocal about the 1.0-2.0 change than they are about the cancellation of skirmish altogether..

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24 Oct 2008 04:23 AM
I'm not shocked by this at all..seeing I have been around since Harb and have never seen one DDM game played in my city. This does not effect me but I feel sorry for the DMMers. :(
I'm a little excited about this new approach as I'm a DM and I have waaaaay to many humans/elves/dwaves for armies. So this will slow that down and get me some of the monsters I need. But for the talk of 4th ed. I'd hate to say it but I still see way more 3.5 and 2nd edition in my city then 4th ed. So time will tell. Actually i don't know anyone here that plays 4th edition except the odd person that tried it once and went back to whatever edition they were playing before.
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24 Oct 2008 05:17 AM
My condolences to the skirmish crowd. Seriously, this sucks for you guys.
WotC has plenty of people all too willing to tell them how wonderful they are. I'm not one of those people.
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"I mean c'mon, even evil has to poop."

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24 Oct 2008 05:18 AM
Posted By Pale Rider on 10/23/2008 4:25 PM
It always sucks to lose something you love liked.


Yeah, like 3.5
WotC has plenty of people all too willing to tell them how wonderful they are. I'm not one of those people.
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