Sirohk
Commander
4350 Posts
    
USA
 | | 12 Jun 2007 03:41 PM | | Posted over on Hordelings and ddmspoilers: For your reading displeasure, the Dread(ful) Wraith: LE Dread Wraith 70pt
Level: 8
speed: F8
AC: 19
HP 70
Melee attack +14 (10 magic + con drain)
Type: Large Undead
Special Abilities: Incorporeal d, flight, Undead Traits
Constitution drain +5 ( whenever this creature’s melee attack deals damage to a living creature, the damaged creature must make a save, or it takes +5 damage that this creature gets +5 hp; DC 20)
Fearless
Melee Reach 2
A very huge dissappointment.Â Â Â
So sad for LE if these indeed are the stats.Â
Looks like I'm turing to CG or CE.Â
Its the Dark side for.Â
| | Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
DDM Guild Chapter Master Buffalo and Western New York
Champion of all Rahshasa's (Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan) | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 12 Jun 2007 03:59 PM | | Thats 70 pts ?
Hopefully got pointvale filled in by HP twice or something.
Could last a long time with inorpeal & life drain, but about as much threat as the zombie white. | | "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Izeya82
Sneak
151 Posts
| | 12 Jun 2007 04:35 PM | | I think it's a little dissapointing, but I will be one of those guys facing it and find myself rolling crits to hit but missing conceal =/. Â Thanks for the stats keep em coming =) | | | | |
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Ryoga
Underboss
1142 Posts
Coquimbo - Chile / Italia
| | 12 Jun 2007 04:43 PM | | Posted By Izeya82 on 06/12/2007 4:35 PM I think it's a little dissapointing, but I will be one of those guys facing it and find myself rolling crits to hit but missing conceal =/.  Thanks for the stats keep em coming =) Use Sacred watcher and you problem is over.... all attacks hit and do great damages.... I dont wnat to say nothing about this junk, because the post will be full of bad words. Bad news friend Sirokh | | Dealing with new life... new country and life without DDM :(
Some day I will be back in board | |
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Sirohk
Commander
4350 Posts
USA
| | 12 Jun 2007 05:18 PM | | Compare versus the Sacred Watcher:
Sacred Watcher
18 points
Type Undead
Level 5
Speed F6
AC 21
HP 30
Melee Attack +10 (10)
Special Abilities:
Undead Traits
Flight
Fearless
Incorporeal
Undead Slayer
Level 8 DW : Level 5 SW
HPÂ DW 70 : 30Â SW [2.3 ratio]
AC DW 19 : 21 SW
Att DW +14 (10 Magic + Con Drain) : +10 (10) for SW
DW is Large with Melee Reach 2
SW is Medium, no Melee Reach
Both have Incoporeal
DW has Constitution Drain (with a DC), SW has Undead Slayer
HP to cost ratio DW = 1:1
HP to cost ratio SW = 1.67:1
I can't see why the DW had to be costed 2.3 more than the SW. Or at a cost of 70 points, why not give it some damage output to make it at least an annoyance (say like 20 or 25 Magic damage). One can fit multiple SW's in a warband. One will not be able to fit in multiple Dread Wraiths in a warband (2 max and not much left for anything else).Â
I'm very sad about this piece.Â
| | Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
DDM Guild Chapter Master Buffalo and Western New York
Champion of all Rahshasa's (Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan) | |
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Custom Title
WakeXX
Warlord
10163 Posts
Edinboro PA
| | 12 Jun 2007 05:32 PM | | Not too good...however 70 fearless incorporal hitpoints could go a long way. | | | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 12 Jun 2007 05:36 PM | | Sad about it too. Maybe so bad so the RPGers get a chance to get one .. :/
Or hopefully something has been left off the card.
It will stay around - maybe a LE cordon specialist. | | "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Man of Renown
Wraithborne
Warlord
6031 Posts
Lortab Land
| | 12 Jun 2007 07:45 PM | | Meh, would be overcosted at 30 points. | | Posted By Wraithborne on 04/27/2008 7:54 PM
Yup, I'm a regular blasphemator of the English Lanuage. | |
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Vendelphian
Warrior
212 Posts
Flint, Mi
| | 12 Jun 2007 07:46 PM | | The only thing I can say positively about this piece is the fact that it is 70Â HP of incorpreal beef. That is going to be its saving grace in any format. I mean this is the only reason I can see it being costed this much.
Question: Does WoTC play test its minis to determine point values? If so then the DW's incorp must have really proven useful with this kind of HP | | VENDELPHIAN CHAMPION OF ELDEVERE
As the once great Zanin Arthasad would say...
ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!! Lets charge the gates!!!! | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2058 Posts
Portland OR
| | 12 Jun 2007 09:35 PM | | I posted this before already in the other thread but here are my feelings on this piece of...
I looked up the RPG stats not too terribly long ago but I'll err on the low side...
the dreadwraith in RPG had 105hp!!! 105!!! yes 35 more than the mini...
at that cost and being incorpreal you can easily justify giving him the +5 for a touch att... maybe they already did but that still seems very low...
and I know they bluff dmg on critters all the time... he really really reallly really needed to do 15m dmg...
for 70 pts you should have no less than
100 hp
+16 att
15m dmg
and you might might might be powerful enough. Luckily the con drain dc is 20. Still a chance to pass and still only works on living...
vs. 2 sacred watchers...
at half this guys cost I'd put my money on the 2 sacred watchers if they were flanking... They might even kill him before he kills one of them!!! and that is not okay.
I really hope those aren't the stats but I'm pretty sure they are... what could have they left out... cleave? big deal... death strike... still not a big deal... reduce commander 4... maybe... (still don't know what figure has that ability from the inset spoiler. My guess is big goldie gets + cmd 2 or so).
Basically if they would have straight RPG stated him and erred on the high side he might have a chance... after thinking it over I reduce my previous 55pt guess to 37-39. That's still a ton o fearless incorp hp with regen possibilities. Not bad on a large base wiht melee reach in the faction that makes this guy almost auto hit.
But as is he is definatly the dreadful wraith... so much potential squandered again... | | Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Sirohk
Commander
4350 Posts
USA
| | 13 Jun 2007 03:10 AM | | Think of the Dread Wraith this way:  70 hit points that does very little damage and therefore is not even a threat to your opponent. Thus if I'm playing against a Dread Wraith, I ignore it and focus my full 200 point warband on your 130 points of warband remaining. Who's gonna win that batle?Â
| | Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
DDM Guild Chapter Master Buffalo and Western New York
Champion of all Rahshasa's (Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan) | |
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Temysry
Sergeant
529 Posts
| | 13 Jun 2007 03:44 AM | | Posted By Sirohk on 06/13/2007 3:10 AM Think of the Dread Wraith this way:  70 hit points that does very little damage and therefore is not even a threat to your opponent. Thus if I'm playing against a Dread Wraith, I ignore it and focus my full 200 point warband on your 130 points of warband remaining. Who's gonna win that batle?Â
That's certainly one way to look at it. If it's possible to use this piece, it certainly won't be as a "traditional" titan. We do have to remember that with 70 hp and incorporeal it'll behave like it has an effective 140hp (sometimes less, sometimes more). On top of that, if a living creature fails the con drain save, it gains an effective 10 hp. Furthermore, if you have a source of negative damage to heal it, that healing will also effectively be doubled. That makes this creature probably one of the most survivable titans in the game. Of course, as people pointed out - he gets eaten alive by sacred watchers. As you mention, everyone will try to ignore the thing and try to take out the other 130 points of your warband first. Naturally, this would be a great strategy assuming 2 things - 1. You can get to the rest of his warband, 2. The rest of the warband is easier to take out than this guy. Now, I'm not saying it's a good idea, but if you had two of these guys in a warband, it'll be quite difficult to win if you ignore 140 points of the opponent's warband. Of course, there are other ways to make extremely resiliant LE warbands. Off the top of my head, I'd say the Beholder Lich and the new Lifeleech Otyugh would be candidates as well. I don't think this would win any top tournaments but it could give some popular bands a run for their money. | | A Proud Gelatinous Dude and DDM Guild Chapter of Vancouver
www.gelatinousdudes.com
www.ddmguild.com
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10713 Posts
United States
| | 13 Jun 2007 05:00 AM | | Yep, the Dread Wraith appears to cost more than it should. I'm sure playtesting will reveal if this is the case. One problem is that it's probably hard to build an effective, 7-activation, 130-point band that can accompany this thing.
I'd imagine that Ultroloth/Dread Wraith is just too expensive to build around, so, you'll want a cheaper commander for the rest of your band.
Dave | | Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Bring_it_On_DDM
Sneak
125 Posts
Canada
| | 13 Jun 2007 06:06 AM | | WOTC once again has WAY OVER COSTED EVIL UNDEAD... maybe if I shout loud enough Lida, Shoe or anyone else in the D&D Minis game design department will listen.
Make EVIL UNDEAD costed to be competive in skirmish not just limited but constructed as well.
I going keep a close watch on all undead going forward and write a report later for all undead pieces. | | I'm new to DDM. But have played D&D for 13 years!
Called Shot Icons
Gargantuan Silver Dragon | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
10590 Posts
| | 13 Jun 2007 07:25 AM | | I'm suggesting Blich x2 + Dread Wraith as a viable warband, I'll be giving it a try once I get my DW. | | Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
"I sense a disturbance in the zing, as though one or two voices were joking around, but then were suddenly silenced." | |
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Bring_it_On_DDM
Sneak
125 Posts
Canada
| | 13 Jun 2007 07:29 AM | | Greyhaze,
Interesting I will give it a try as well but with something else. Can't wait for the prelease | | I'm new to DDM. But have played D&D for 13 years!
Called Shot Icons
Gargantuan Silver Dragon | |
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 13 Jun 2007 08:02 AM | | i don't think so greyhaze. if you go triple B-Lich you do (maybe!) 5 less damage, just about as pesky to kill, 2 more activations, and have a shot for some real damage. | | | Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2058 Posts
Portland OR
| | 13 Jun 2007 09:00 AM | | So if these are the real stats... here's the question...
What in LE this set makes this piece so much more amazing??? Is the prisoner that good??? Does he have beneath contempt, attendent, mob 2, allies can target this creature, any ally that kills this creature gains death knell (+2 att +5 dmg +10 hp), futile (this creature may voluntarily fail saves)... then you could use the dreadful wraith... but you'd probably just use a fire giant forge priest... then you could kill up to 3 in one round... assuming these stack... which they wouldn't so you wouldn't need more than one and they'd just overcost the prisoner because of these worthless abilities and LE would get screwed in the end again... yep... rant over...
But seriously... the design team needs to weigh in on this guy... how did you play this guy to justify this cost??? how do you justify this cost??? sure he can do thirty if strahd is paired with him and strahd's bloodstar goes off but then again so will a sacred watcher (possibly 40!)... sure you can heal him with the beholder, beholder llich, aspect of nerull, or other LE pieces, but how many of those pieces are worth thier inflated cost too??? Did you lift the hp cap restricitions on things??? that would be a start... and how about letting death strike bring this guy back from the dead, making him that much harder to kill??? nope probably still not worth 70pts, even if you did all that... seriously rant over this time...
Anyone else got any ideas??? Anyone want to say anything... fess up to a super uber incorpreal boosting commander coming out with an undead boosting aura and swift inflicts for heals??? someone, anyone, help... | | Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1507 Posts
Spain
| | 13 Jun 2007 09:04 AM | | The new wraith is similar to the old wraith.In one word: [edit: it was two words, and don't belong here]. Another typical useless monster wich has huge interest in RPG play.For skirmish is a junk.But...Now we can only wait to the shadow.Maybe it will be a better creature (I seriously doubt it). | | | LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
10590 Posts
| | 13 Jun 2007 09:19 AM | | The Shadow CE and costs too much to be brought over easily to LE. | | Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
"I sense a disturbance in the zing, as though one or two voices were joking around, but then were suddenly silenced." | |
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Bring_it_On_DDM
Sneak
125 Posts
Canada
| | 13 Jun 2007 09:28 AM | | Hey Greyhaze,
How do you know the new Shadow CE will cost too much? Yes Strahd is the way to bring him over to LE.
| | I'm new to DDM. But have played D&D for 13 years!
Called Shot Icons
Gargantuan Silver Dragon | |
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Ryoga
Underboss
1142 Posts
Coquimbo - Chile / Italia
| | 13 Jun 2007 09:57 AM | | I agree iluvxtina. Lord Rock: I dont think that WoTC release an prisioner that gives death knell it will be awesome... but this people dont want to see LE to progress and Dread wraith is a clue of this. We can't find the right power up for this one.... this unit will go directly to the junk trash. Im really bored about silver warbands and WoTC dont give us hopes.... BAD | | Dealing with new life... new country and life without DDM :(
Some day I will be back in board | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 13 Jun 2007 09:59 AM | | Such paranoia... | | | I am not gone. | |
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
891 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 13 Jun 2007 10:10 AM | | I was wondering if the Dread Wraith would be viable with Count Strahd to give it +10 damage. But I think you'd be better off taking a Vampire Dire Wolf instead, with more points left over. I agree that I think it was deliberately overcosted to make it more of a pick for the RPG players rather than minis players. | | | |
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E Thug of the
Round Table
Wolfgang
Warlord
7224 Posts
Milton, Ontario Canada
| | 13 Jun 2007 10:20 AM | | Meh, would be overcosted at 30 points. you got that right my friend | | Member since March 26 2005
Champion of the SIVAK DRACONIAN
Completed trades: (99)
Bad traders(2) DJchuckles, sardal
Called shots:Bazz Draconian in SE
Times that this has been my called shot - 1
Vindicated :Sivak Draconian Trade References
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
10590 Posts
| | 13 Jun 2007 11:08 AM | | Posted By Bring_it_On_DDM on 06/13/2007 9:28 AM
Hey Greyhaze,
How do you know the new Shadow CE will cost too much? Yes Strahd is the way to bring him over to LE.
This is as close as I can say. http://www.ddmspoilers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620&start=30&sid=829f7073322520fda96c26c9c6c690cd(man, what is wrong with the design thing here... rrrg) | | Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
"I sense a disturbance in the zing, as though one or two voices were joking around, but then were suddenly silenced." | |
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Sirohk
Commander
4350 Posts
USA
| | 13 Jun 2007 02:31 PM | | Posted By Wolfgang on 06/13/2007 10:20 AM Meh, would be overcosted at 30 points. you got that right my friend Ditto (sadly).  30 point costed Dread Wraiths with the stats they have would have been useful and maybe even fun. 4 of them at 30 points plus Ultroloth (182 points plus filler) would have been a low damage fun point denial warband to run (and maybe even competitive). | | Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
DDM Guild Chapter Master Buffalo and Western New York
Champion of all Rahshasa's (Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan) | |
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Ryoga
Underboss
1142 Posts
Coquimbo - Chile / Italia
| | 13 Jun 2007 03:30 PM | | Hye guys... where do you get the stats? I ever quess all the time this question... | | Dealing with new life... new country and life without DDM :(
Some day I will be back in board | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10713 Posts
United States
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2058 Posts
Portland OR
| | 14 Jun 2007 10:07 AM | | ohh ohh ohh... i bet they forgot aura of fear 5...
nope still not worth it... | | Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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