Hey all,

I'm just looking for a little input on 3.5 D&D books and other accessories.  I used to play D&D back in the late 70s and early 80s, but have had a long time away.  In the last year though, my gaming buds and I have gone from Magic to skirmish to now a mix of RPG and skirmish.  We meet once a week at best, and sometimes we RPG and sometimes we skirmish.  I have the 3.5 core set of books (Dungeon Master Guide, Players Handbook, Monster Manual I) but was considering expanding.  It is unclear to me if the Dungeon Masters Guide II, and Players Handbook II are 3.5 and even if they are, are they worth buying?  Is there another Monster Manual that is a must have?  Many of the other books look interesting (Complete Mage, City Scape, Dragon Magic, etc.) but are they worth getting for a group that plays every other week on average.  There is certainly enough with just the core books to keep us going for a long time, but I wouldn't mind having options for expansion.  I also prefer to homebrew my own dungeons/quests, but time isn't abundant for this father of 4, so what adventures are worth the $$$ to pick up?  So, just hit me with your thoughts on what is a "must", what would be "useful", and what is a "don't bother".

Oh yeah, what is 3 Dragon Ante?  Is that useful for RPG?

Thanks in advance for all inputs,

Gary

3 Dragon Ante is not useful enough to use for rpg to buy it.
So your using homebrew so there's no point as getting into the setting books. I would stick to the monster books then, fiend folio and Monster Manual 2 wasn't that bad.(even though they were 3.0)
Heard good things from the Complete Adventure
Also I like the Spell Compenduim for mages.
Dungeon Mag can really come in handy if you have a near by Flgs to get it.
I skipped both the DM2 and PHB2 I just didn't see enough great stuff in there for me to make the purchase.

Also welcome back to the world of gaming!!!!

Both the PH II and DMG II are 3.5. The DMG is mostly DM tips, basically a 'how to' book for DM's. If you're an experienced DM it's useful, but not essential. The PH II is mostly crunchy bits (feats, spells, etc.) for characters. I wouldn't consider this an essential book either. The complete series also adds crunchy bits and a new core class, or three. If you haven't played much 3.5, the core books offer plenty of options for long term play. The problem I see with some of the splat books is that they're generally balanced aginst the core rules, but not against each other. Do you prefer one off adventures or a longer epic quest type stuff?

PH2 has a lot of good stuff in it. Some of the abilities (Abrupt Jaunt) and spells (Wings of Cover) are a bit munchkin-esque, but overall it's a decent investment.
The splatbooks offer a lot of customization/prestige options but are generally unneccessary (particularly if you have DMed for a long time). Sometimes having too many options is detrimental to gameplay. I'd stick with the core books and consider investing in the PH2.

Three Dragon Ante is a pretty fun card game in its own right. It's not a terribly useful addition to D&D, however, since it's somewhat time consuming. It can be a nice way to introduce characters to each other during an introductory gaming session, but as an RPG tool per se I'd probably pass on it.

As to adventures....Red Hand of Doom is one of the best values you'll find. It's well written, complicated, compelling, and deadly. Good combination. Castle Ravenloft looks very well put together (haven't read it in depth since one of my players wants to DM it). Generally speaking, WotC has done a good job with adventures. The 3.0 adventure path (Sunless Citadel et al) was fun although a couple of the adventures were not as well written as others (and it's 3.0 so there's some minor tweaking that needs to be done).

Thanks for the inputs folks! Keep them coming!

Yack, thanks for the "welcome back". 3.5, is a bit different than the rules I remember. But, from what I remember of the old, I very much like the changes. We're having fun with it. But the 5 of us are friends, and we would have fun even if we were playing a flavorless old card game.

nyjastul69, I don't know if I prefer one of adventures or epic adventures. I think either are good. But my players are commenting that they would like to be a part of something bigger. I've started them out on one of types (they are currently 5th level), but I'm thinking toward something epic. They are currently working off a debt for a ships captain. He has them serching for an artifact on a very dangerous island. . . this has the potential to be epic like.

zenthrus, I've read bits and pieces about the Red Hand of Doom and have been considering it (even more now). It's for ~10th level characters?

The reason I've asked (besides the obvious that I'm playing again and the input would help), is that I've been given the green light to purchase a few books to put under the Christmas Tree for my self. I'm really curious about the City Scape book that just came out. I've always liked city gaming, both as a main adventure focus and tie in spots between adventures.

I haven't read Cityscape, but I found the other "setting" books interesting especially if you are focusing on a type of adventure. If you have limited funds, here is the order I would get them in:

PHB, DMG, MMI (The classics and must haves to do anything), Spell Compendium (Collects the spells from many sources into one book and make them more balanced).

After that, it's your choice. I'd avoid the Complete series for now, even though I use them a lot. They are great for players and for Pclasses for NPC, but there are so many that it'll be hard to get al of them and your players might get them anyways for their characters. Borrow them from them! You also might want to consider getting PDFs of some of these boks. While I find them more annoying than a hardcopy, you usually only pay a fraction of the price ($5 on average). It's a much better way to stretch out limited funds and if you decide to get them in hard cover in the future you haven't really wasted any money.

I've heard nothing but great things about the Red Hand of Doom module.  Other folks who have run it can tell you better, but I believe the thing is for characters around 7th to 8th level at the start.  Characters should finish more in the 11th - 12th level I think.  I thumbed through Shoe's account of the adventure, and it looked rather spicy.Â)

Find out about the [Something] of Gruumsh Module too, I know you like orcs a lot.  I don't know much about this module other than it was a lot shorter and may have been set in Ebberon.  I think it's for lower level characters too, which would help our group since we're functionally brain dead and would probably get ourselves killed in correctly adjusted difficulties.

I'm fairly certain that one of the members of your group will have the MMII by christmas, so I'd take that one off your list.  I'd agree that the "Complete" books aren't necessary as our group is also just "rediscovering" D&D, at least in the v.3.5. context.  Also, unless you have decided that you are definitely going to remain a homebrew campaign, the "Environment" books may be a good read, but of little use.

If you don't hear from him, PM Count Dooku, he's run and read an awful lot of the modules and may have good advice.  He turned me onto the Sunless Citidel to try with newer players.

Lastly, could someone explain the difference between v3.0 and v3.5 source materials.

Okay, first, Sons of Gruumsh was set in the Forgotten Realms. It could be adapted, but that takes work.

Now 3.0 v 3.5. Without knowing more specifics on what you might want to know this might be vague. If you need more please say so. The problem with 3.0 material is balance. Much of it was good, but there were some game choices that might have worked well in theory but when apllied with the new mechanics were causing problems. For instance, 3.0 haste which was the best for spellcasters vs 3.5 haste which was toned back to its original intent of improving melee and ranged combat. The same problem happened with some Pclasses: they were just too good compared to others (some were too weak as well!), not written clearly enough, or in practice were different than the intent of their design. 3.5 addressed a lot of these problems and with 3 years of experience under game designers' belts, design issues were better worked out. Not to say 3.5 is perfect, but it corrected a lot of problems before they got out of hand.

Hey Kat_Dawg33, glad to hear that you're getting back into RPGing! I hope you and your group has fun as we do, though the way you're putting it, it appears likely.

I'm a minimalist in D&D, and after having reviewed many books, i now stick with the three core books only. All other splat books and rule books, i don't use. I've been playing 3.5 for 2 years now (touched 3.0 for a few sessions), and i've played basic then AD&D 1st Ed for about 15 years a while back. I love 3.5, for what it's worth.

If you're starting and you and your players only play occasionally , i would really recommend that you stick to the core books for now. The other books introduce a lot of stuff that, in my opinion, is not necessary and only offers additional options to power up. Moreover, and there lies the danger, some combinations taken from some books become very deadly, a.k.a. munchkin-esque.

However, if you and your group are fans of power builds, then the splat books are for you. (This reduces the actual scope of the splat books, but it's true nonetheless.)

Concerning the monster manuals... again, i'm not a fan of those books at all. I've actually owned the MM2 and the Fiend Folio, but eventually traded them away because i did not like them for the most part. I've also briefly looked through the other MMs, and i find that the new monsters, for the most part, lack the flavor that i find in the MM. The MM includes a lot of the old stuff, based on monsters from our world's legends and myths such as demons, vampires, werewolves, mummies and undead, dragons, and so on. While the new monsters are often weird creatures that have some merit in themselves, but otherwise lack interest for me since they simply spring from the mind of one (or a few) persons.

Adventures: this is another matter from my personal standpoint. I've bought the Shackled City Adventure Path (Paizo, hardcover, initially published in Dragon Magazine), and started playing it for 3 players. Up to now, it's great fun, and the story has depth and fantastic flavor. I very strongly recommend it. One poster commented that it leaned a bit heavily on the dungeon-crawl side, and i agree, moreso in the initial stages of the adventure path, but some dungeon crawl is not so bad, is it? Hehe. (I'm not a fan of dungeon crawls usually.) But there is also some good RPing to be had in there. This book is a campaign in itself, taking your adventurers from level 1 to level 20. Maps are great, detail level is high. It can be adapted to just about any campaign setting.

I've also bought the Red Hand of Doom adventure (WotC). It is a well-done adventure, fun to play. I've started DMing for another group of three players. I find that it lacks the depth of the Shackled City AP, but it's still a good buy i believe. It takes your adventurers from level 5 to level 10.

I've also bought Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (takes your adventurers from level 6 to level 10, if i recall correctly). I haven't finished reading it yet, and of course have not played it either. There are three portions in the adventure, and i've read two and started the third. The first chapter left an awful impression on me, but the adventure appears better in the other two chapters. Still, i preferred the other two adventures discussed above.

You said that you skirmished, so i assume that you have minis already in suitable numbers. If you want to spend your money somewhere, i'd buy one or more adventures, see which one you want to play, and then buy or trade for minis that you need for said adventure(s). That's what i've been doing, and i'm rather comfortable with my choice. Reading the board and seeing the results of some of the splat books that allow players to deal more and more damage and combine this and that feat... i feel it deters from the gist of the game: fun at role-playing, instead of continuously looking for ways to maximize your PCs and having arguments over the zillion rule options (and of course, NPCs have to follow PCs, 'cause you need to keep up or bite the dust). This being said, i respect that many players like to power-build, but it's not my stuff.

Sky

More good inputs... thanks folks!!!

Well, if you hadn't figured out by Zoons post, we're part of the same group. And I guess I've got one vote for the Red Hand of Doom. Stop reading about the adventure if you want to play the dang thing Zoons.

I am an Orc fan, like Zoons said, and I've also read and enjoyed a handfull of Forgotten Realms books. I'll have to consider the Sons of Gruumsh I guess. I'm not an Eberron fan when it comes to RPG, although I like some of the minis with the Eberron flavor for skirmish. Hey gss, what did you mean when you said the Sons of Gruumsh could be adapted?

Sky, thanks for the input again (you gave me advise at the other site on "How to give out Magic"). The 3 book basic set sure seems like enough, I just wanted to know if I was missing anything. Maybe I'll just hold off for now and get some MORE MINIS! The group does have plenty of minis. . . 4 of the 5 of us collect and one of those 4 is Zoons, so we have at least one of everything. Zoons is a "collectem al"l and I'm a "horde the ones I like", so we're doing pretty good with the minis. . . but I still want more.

What I meant is you could go through and change references where appropriate. For instance, certain gods are FR specific, so you'll have to change them. Same with place names. It's a low level adventure, so a lot of the stuff that would be harder to change, like Realms specific Pclasses, aren't there, so it is easier than some, but you still have to do prep work ahead of time if you were going to use it.

Ahh, that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

You're quite welcome Kat. Of course, my opinion is just my own, and many players have a different take on how to play the game (of course). Also, having little actual hands-on knowledge of the splat books, my judgement is to be taken with a grain of salt, so to speak. All i can say is that i've been happy with the way things have turned out up to now, i have the impression that my campaign is far away from power-creep, which is fine by my standars, and my players tell me they're happy about the way things are going on.

Good luck with the campaign,

Sky

Here is a fairly comprehensive guide to the changes between 3.0 and 3.5.

http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/dnd/dnd-revised.htm

I really like 3 Dragon Ante, but don't really associate it much with D&D. In other words, for me, it is a game by itself. It takes a lot of time if you are trying to incorporate it into a session.

I have been running Red Hand of Doom. I think that what level you start at depends on the number of characters. If there are 4-5 characters, level 7 would be a good place to start (maybe . I had a party of 8 level 5 characters start. They have been a bit overwhelmed at times. There have been 3 deaths. One due to a really unfortunate fumble by the ranger, which resulted in a critical hit to the back of a very wounded fighter. One due to a powerful creature that appears for the first time in MM4, but which was raised from death by magic item. One was due to clumsiness and poor choice of player (stuck around to be in two breath weapons of a large red dragon). I very much have enjoyed Red Hand of Doom and think it's a great idea for you to get it.

I recommend the Spell Compendium. I would say regarding the PHB2--the main thing to me are the feat options and the four new base classes in it. Skim over the book--if you like the sound of those base classes, it may be worthwhile to you. I bought it and like it.

I don't buy every book that comes out. I have completely skipped the Complete (Whatever) books.
The format of the MM4 is better than MM2 or MM3, but there are not as many monsters in it as I expected. Those that are in it are well developed and there is good detail on them.

I play every other weekend with my group and after doing it for several months, I find that it's just about the right time between sessions for us.

Well, that pretty much settles it, Red Hand of Doom sounds like a must. Thanks Corim. And although I want to remain similar to Sky with keeping it minimal, that is a good point about the new basic classes. I'll check out the book for those classes and make a decision based on that. I'm still considering Cityscape, but will need to know more about it. And I'm also still considering Sons of Gruumsh and the Howling Horde (might be a good one to start my children off with, but I'm going to have to sell the wife on the idea first).

This was helpfull, and if anyone else has input, I'm still listening. I may have to start a new thread for discussion about DM tricks of the trade. . .

Whoa,  not tricks.  Just trades please.  He'll start mopping the floor with us.   BTW,  I think I know something from your list that'll be in my stocking this year too.

I'd like to add a plug for the monster-type series of books.  They are (in chronological order of appearance):
1.) Draconomicon (The book of Dragons)
2.) Libris Mortis (The book of Undead)
3.) Lords of Madness (The book of Aberrations)
4.) Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss (The book of Demons)
5.) Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells (The book of Devils)

I have #1, #2, and #4.  I like them all.  For a new DM, I think #1 and #2 are quite good (especially #2) since you will probably use a lot of undead in your campaigns and you will also probably run a dragon or two at one point or another.  These books give great background and flavor for these different creature types, along with feats and spells that either the DM can use to augment these creatures, or the players can use to slay them.  Each one also contains a chapter with some new monsters that fit the theme of the book (again, Libris Mortis has a nice set across multiple different challenge ratings), and some prestige-classes that are nice fits for powerful NPCs or that players might use to give their PCs some special flair.  Overall these books provide great strategies for the DM to run these types of creatures and add flavor to encounters that include these creature types.  These are nice tools that complement the Monster Manual quite well and have bits and pieces that work well for "plug and play" into just about any adventure you want to run.

I think these books are nice to have, but aren't good if you only can buy a limited amount of books. While they do provide flavor, and are great for campaigns that focus on those types of creatures, a DM can get by really well without them. What wildmage says is true, too. But I feel in the scope of what the responses have been you may want to wait on them.

Oh, you might want to think about getting the Basic Game if you are looking for something to start your kids on, or even for yourself as a first time DM. It is designed especially for that purpose, and maybe a good warm up to see how things work and try out characters.

I'd recommend.

- The Complete Series... Complete Warrior is almost "must have"
- DMG II and PHB II are both good, but not dire essentials. PHB II and Complete Warrior are great for improving the melee classes to the point where fighters are not completely outshone.
- Spell Compendium is a fantastic buy. If you have PHB, SC, and PHB II, I recommend telling the PCs to limit their spell lists to what is in those 3 books, and any other spell must be subject to DM approval.

Depending on your needs and setting, the Fiendish Codex is a very solid supplement, but obviously only if you use Demons and such enough to merit it.

If you have discretionary cash, sometimes it's better to buy minis than to keep buying new books.

The Combat System, even grappling, is very solid, and it's rewarding to see an intricate battle play out on tiles or a map once you've slowly mastered all the rules.

I DMed in the old days too, and, I have to say that combat was a lot more hack-n-slash back then, and movement and positioning wasn't nearly the vital factor it is now. (maybe you handled it better than I did)

The thing is, combat, done properly, isn't mindless and boring, and miniatures/maps/tiles are a MASSIVE help to the experience.

Red Hand of Doom, I believe, even comes with scale maps for use with the minis...

www.thewarstore.com or gameoutfitter or battleworks are solid places online to buy boxes and cases at reduced prices... even Amazon.com has pretty good discounts.

The point is, instead of buying 2-3 more $30 books, you might be better off using that $90 to get 8-9 boxes of minis (and the D&D Mini game is fun in and of itself).

So.... I'm in a simillar/same boat as K_D33 and want a quick refresher...
Haven't actually played in a l_o_n_g time (early 90's). Assuming my imagination/roleplaying skills are still intact. What do I need to relearn to get up to speed and not make my cousin embarrassed for letting me in to his games?

Is it just a matter of learning the new mechanics?

PS this site is gonna get me fired! (been reading posts for 4 hours)

Probably the best thing is to get a PHB. What you'll find is that while much has changed, a lot has stayed the same only now it makes sense. The best thing to do, and what helped me at first was to continually say to yourself: high is always good (oh, and THACO is dead, sorry, but monks are back! ). Character building is very similar, although you'll want to spend some time on the feats section just to get a feel for them, as they are probably the newest mechanic to you. The rest has been there, although more in optional rules or rules we probably all ignored, like the stuff in combat. It's probably the other section you should read over a couple of times. Now that the game utilizes maps more, combat isn't gestalted as much as it used to so how you fight on maps is important (although, if you do DDM you are most of the way there).

Oh, and o answer your other question, yes, it is just a case of learning mechanics. As with any other group, you can have a wide range of games and game styles, so it really depends on the game your brother decides to run.

thekidxii!
there is some great advice above there! Starters is the PHB its a must (no you can't borrow mine). Also I'm thinking of starting a smaller beginner gaming group and will invite you to that bud, but play a couple small sessions first. But gss_000 gave some great advice.

Thanks to all!
gss_000,
Monks are back! Excellent (Yack hates them)
Yack,
You forget that I have a certain book already to ramdsom you with... this board rocks!

Cheers,
Dugal, Kram and Ringo (pre-gem phase)

Hi thekidxii, welcome around!

The rules may appear like a hassle to read at first, but really i think that a vast majority of the players believe that the new version of D&D is an improvement over the older ones. THACO may be dead, but it's replaced by a much more intuitive and simple system, really. Likewise for many things. You'll find you have more options available that are covered by the rules. But the flavor remains the same, so the monk and the paladin still have their classic abilities, and so on.

Cheers, and have fun!

Sky

Oh, and if you decide to play a monk, as a friend of mine says, at low levels flurry means you get to miss twice a round.

Haha. Good one

I have a question on monks... i'll start a thread.

Sky

Yacker,
Your PHB is now safe! The practical side if me is pissed that I bought the same book 3 times now(1st; 2nd & now 3.5) ... but the pages are so shiny
After reading throught it quickly, I have to say I'm impressed. I'm so geeked to play, I don't know what class to be. Thanks for all the info guys!

Cheers,
Kid

BTW...

I played AD&D back in High School, and ran a 3 year campaign.

It takes a while to get used to the new rule set, and, there will be times when you look at something in an old context and think that the new ability is totally broken.

I was shocked when I found out how many ways a Rogue could Sneak Attack.

Then, I learned how many ways there were to prevent a Sneak Attack.

Like I said before, you might want to just go with the 3 Core books at first and use your excess cash to buy miniatures.

The combat system really works well, and WoTC has written some articles recently on the site about how to use your miniatures in RPG with limited added cost.

Read and re-read the combat section about five times, and then still wait a few sessions before trying Grapple.

I fully understand the grapple rules now, but, they are the toughest to master.

Any time you look at a rule or ability and think it's too good, I'd recommend trying it for a while, posting about it, and see if you're really looking at it from all angles.

I found that I was wrong about a lot of initial complaints that I had about 3.0 and 3.5

Maybe that's just me, and maybe you're better at not rushing to judgement. I had to work through it after complaining about imbalances and having people correct me and show me some of the counters.

Heh.

Good luck, have fun gaming.