Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
    
 | | 04/28/2006 4:26 AM |
| Tonight I saw my first Star Wars Miniatures preview, mostly out of random curiousity. I'm referring to the Champions of the Force Preview 1, since I saw something in that preview that I really like.
They posted what look like full gameplay stats, or else nearly so.
I have little RPG value for the figures, so the competitive Skirmish game is my focus. Much of my purchasing plans for DDM revolve around the stats I'm aware of in a set. Because of this, I was wondering...could we get full stats posted in DDM previews as well? It'd be sweet if this was also done as a retroactive update to the other previews -- getting stats on the Storm Archer for example -- but I'd take what I can get. It seems like a nice idea. Pictures satisfy the RPG crowd, stats give Skirmishers food for thought.
Any way this could be done? | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
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Amurayi
Underboss
1471 Posts
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Hejas
Sergeant
435 Posts
Poland
| | 04/28/2006 7:37 AM |
| | It's more fun the way it is! | |
~Polish~DDM~Elite~ ;-)
Champion of the Psion Killer.
Knight of the "Baldur's Gate" Characters.
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reezel
Sergeant
555 Posts
| | 04/28/2006 8:44 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Amurayi
Nahhh.. takes away the surprise for the draft booster events.
When was the last draft where the minis community didn't know all the stats? | |
Champion of the Beholder and Beholderkin
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. | |
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Grim
Sergeant
482 Posts
| | 04/28/2006 8:49 AM |
| | We always have the spoilers before set release anyway, we might as well have them a trickle at a time. It would let us try out different bands with proxies as well. Win-Win. | |
I am a leaf on the wind...Urrk!!--Wash, "Serenity" | |
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 04/28/2006 8:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by reezel
quote:
Originally posted by Amurayi
Nahhh.. takes away the surprise for the draft booster events.
When was the last draft where the minis community didn't know all the stats?
Agreed. I'm with Pegasus Knight, enough of the childhood fasincation reclamation crap. Give me the goods. | | | |
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ilarue
Underboss
1259 Posts
| | 04/28/2006 9:17 AM |
| | Shoe gives almost all the skirmish stats in his previews, yes sometimes you have to work to figure them out exactly, but for the most point they are all there. So I wouldn’t complain too much since we are getting way more than we used to. | |
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes--Who will gaurd the guards?
Champion of the Commoner Mob Leader | |
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DaemonKain
Warrior
312 Posts
| | 04/28/2006 9:36 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus Knight
I have little RPG value for the figures, so the competitive Skirmish game is my focus. Much of my purchasing plans for DDM revolve around the stats I'm aware of in a set. Because of this, I was wondering...could we get full stats posted in DDM previews as well? It'd be sweet if this was also done as a retroactive update to the other previews -- getting stats on the Storm Archer for example -- but I'd take what I can get. It seems like a nice idea. Pictures satisfy the RPG crowd, stats give Skirmishers food for thought.
I understand the sentiment here, but I have to respectfully disagree. I like the fact that we don't know the skirmish stats of the figures until just before release time, because I think it allows the metagame of currently released figures to reach maturation. If we have a constant stream of new miniatures stat sets that are released, one at a time, you can't focus on the set of miniatures that are currently in the metagame. Rather, you have to divide your attention to focus both on the current tournament scene, and on playtesting the new figs as they are released. I think the tournament community especially needs extended periods of time where the figure list doesn't change for the actual powerful builds to rise to the top. It commonly takes several months for all the potential bands to be 'discovered.'
Take a look at the current meta. We've got quite a few cores that are actively being played:
3x HH
4x Chraal
Dual HGBs
Monks
Marut/Couatl
Mixed LE
Mixed CE
The ebb and flow of the popularity of these bands has been significant over the last few months. With Underdark, we saw the rise of Monks and mixed LE. The popularity of monks decreased the value of many of the LE choices, and pushed HH bands into a better slot. HH bands practically took over, and Monks dropped off the face of the map. Then we saw the Marut+Couatl build, which while it can be in trouble against 4x Duergar Champs + tech or especially 4x Monks, eats HHs. This pushed HH's down a little bit, and, oh, here comes CE, and mixed LE, again.
And that's the simplified version of underdark. The point is that it actually reached a stage of stability. There were a lot of bands being played, but I feel like it had been 'solved.' Or at least we didn't feel like there were a lot of untested or undiscovered gems there. Of course, it got solved right about the time of the Wardrums release.
Wardrums is doing the same thing. HGBs, which splatter CE and Mixed LE, became all the rage, preying on the builds that were preying on the Marut+Couatl (I blame WakeXX DoubtofBuddha for this one, but the California boys were doing it too). That sort of pounded us for a month, and then we see the old favorite of Multi-Chraal builds becoming popular (blast from the past!) as a solid counter against HGBs.
Of course, Multi-Chraal is hard to play against flying enemies that do fire damage... And so here comes Multi-HH again. (Dagni's win at the Cal open aside, I think Multi HH has favorability here)
Now we've got all these bands in the metagame, and it's still developing. I've seen Arcane Ballistas get serious debate time (what? You're running a lot of Chraals / HGBS? Go pound on my high AC Marut while I fire my big azz gun twice a round) even though they got laughed out of town at Wardrums release time. There has been enormous churn in the metagame, and we had all the figures from the beginning! If we'd also had to contend with a new miniature or two having stats released every week, I don't think we would have even gotten to this point. Sure, they couldn't be played at tournaments, but playtesting on Vassal and in smaller groups is where the top players develop the metagame changing bands. Now we'd lose that.
I like the hints as much as the next guy. But I think we are actually well served by having a closed set of information that we have significant time to explore and analyze. Adding new variables one at a time makes it much harder, and I actually think the tournament scene might suffer from it.
Hmm, post wasn't supposed to end up this long. Forgive me, and thanks to those who made it this far. ;) | |
-DaemonKain
Proud Mascot of Team Amish | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6681 Posts
| | 04/28/2006 10:41 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ilarue
Shoe gives almost all the skirmish stats in his previews, yes sometimes you have to work to figure them out exactly, but for the most point they are all there. So I wouldn’t complain too much since we are getting way more than we used to.
Uhm, they are NEVER all there. They usually give AC and leave out HPs for example, or give speed but no attack bonus; it is never fully revealed.
I'm in the boat that would like to see full stats during a preview. Makes my job of tracking them on lemonbutter much easier (don't have to check for corrections when all the spoilers come out at the end). | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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kreylan
Sneak
61 Posts
| | 04/28/2006 10:48 AM |
| I totally agree with DaemonKain!
in my opinion the new sets are already released at a fast pace and what good is it to proxy the minis of the upcoming set whilst you still havent played all the minis from the last one?
Having a peak at the stats is nice, but getting them all...no. | |
Champion of Tika the barmaid | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 04/28/2006 10:54 AM |
| | I think it would be nice to see the full skirmish stats... and if you don't want to put them all in the preview, you can just send them to me to review. [:D] | |
Champion of Remorhaz, and the Mighty Goblin Frog Riders | |
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Grim
Sergeant
482 Posts
| | 04/28/2006 11:00 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kreylan
I totally agree with DaemonKain!
in my opinion the new sets are already released at a fast pace and what good is it to proxy the minis of the upcoming set whilst you still havent played all the minis from the last one?
Having a peak at the stats is nice, but getting them all...no.
I'm not saying give us all the stats, just those of the preview minis. That way you can see potential themes for warbands and spot any power creep or potential metagame chaning trends early.
On a side note, why wouldn't you have played with all of the minis of the last set? You've had months. :) | |
I am a leaf on the wind...Urrk!!--Wash, "Serenity" | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
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LargeMarmot
Sergeant
463 Posts
| | 04/28/2006 11:56 AM |
| | I love the speculation that comes with little hints here and there. I do think that Wizards needed to throw SW:M a little something extra. | |
Champion of the Tohr-Kreen.
WotDQ Called Shot: Fang Dragon. | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 04/28/2006 1:52 PM |
| This wouldn't have to be a "One or the other" thing; the previews could have it both ways. If you'll look at the WotC forums, you'll notice they have 'Show' and 'Hide' buttons for concealing signatures. Those could probably be adapted to house stats in previews.
Granted, once the stats are out of the bag, metagame discussion will begin. I'm not sure how to practically accomodate that and allow some people to stay in 'speculation discussion' -- to give it a broad term -- and I'm not even sure it'd be possible.
Personally, I don't enjoy the guessing game but I don't despise it either. Yet I like to know up front what I'm getting, and the larger a time-window I have it known in, the better informed I can be about my purchasing decisions. But I can understand why others do enjoy it, and it certainly is neat to have Shoe drop by and leave playful little hints about things.
Ultimately, the week before retail release is often not the best time for me to finally know what I'm getting. The week-before megaspoiler might tell me "Yes, I want those!" or 'No, just eBay the four or so singles you want', but by then it's often too late to get into a Wave 1 Pre-Order, isn't it? | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
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Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7545 Posts
Sector 2814
| | 04/29/2006 9:54 AM |
| | I think, from a marketing standpoint, that it is a bad idea. The point is to steadily increase the fervor for the set as release comes closer, hopefully culminating in maximum desire at release date/tournament. this is more effectively handled by not revealing the stats, but keeping even the earlier previews a topic of discussion by not revealing the stats, and having speculation on them. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
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Queen of Lurkers
lurkinglidda
Warrior
231 Posts
| | 04/29/2006 11:44 AM |
| | This very topic, and all the arguments for & against it discussed here, has come up a number of times in the past several weeks at WotC. There are good reasons to, and not to, show stats in our spoilers. We've revamped our preview plan twice now so it's hard to keep all the details straight, but IIRC we're going to show stats soon...I just don't remember when/how/where. [shameless plug] Continue to watch the wotc minis site and your favorite pubs to see if we will go forward with the idea or not [/shameless plug] | |
Assoc. Brand Mgr
D&D Minis
Wizards of the Coast | |
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Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 04/29/2006 5:29 PM |
| I'm not worried about the stats since I collect them for RPG, so that debate hasn't concerned me in a good while. I know it's a big thing for others, and I don't begrudge them that.
I tend to find the 2 mini previews more of a bummer since I only get to see two new minis that will be released instead of three. Of course, this was before the new 80% preview plans were put into play. | |
Trade & talk in real time on IRC! SERVER: irc.psionics.net CHANNEL: #maxminis SOFTWARE: PC | PC (free) | MAC
Champion of ALL Dragons and the Dragon Shaman
][ My Trade Shoppe ][ Vindicated Champion of Aspects of Draconic Deities
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 04/29/2006 7:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lurkinglidda
We've revamped our preview plan twice now so it's hard to keep all the details straight, but IIRC we're going to show stats soon...I just don't remember when/how/where.
Thank you for the response! I'll admit stat-previews definitely are a hard topic; there's good cases for and against it and I would've been pleased with a reply regardless of if it was yes or no. The fact the answer is "we'll probably be doing that" makes me even more pleased, but in this case the response is just as nice as the content of it. | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
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PrometheusEnslaved
Sneak
78 Posts
Central Florida
| | 04/30/2006 6:54 PM |
| Personally, the two changes I'd most like to see with the previews are:
1. Full stat disclosure. Go ahead and show the stat cards so we can read for ourselves exactly what's printed on them. One, it gives us a clear idea of skirmish usefulness. Two, it will save Guy a lot of trouble. You always see questions pop up on the WotC message boards, asking about how abilities on unreleased minis might work with other abilities. A lot of the time, Guy has said that without reading the actual text on the card he can't offer an answer. And a lot of the time, people have these questions because the abilities are just hinted at or paraphrased. If everyone could read the stat cards, it might cut down on the number of questions or, at the very least, allow Guy to accurately answer them.
2. Photos of Out-of-the-Box Minis. Seriously, do away with the paint Masters. I can appreciate the idea behind showing them and that desire to present them at their finest, but it's misleading, even fraudulent, and often disappointing when what we get doesn't remotely resemble what we saw. Don't show us the minis as they could be if we were professional painters. Show us what we'll actually be pulling from the boosters. Yeah, there will still be some variation from mini to mini because they're hand painted, but at least we won't experience the whole War Drums debacle again. Plus, I think it would be a strong motivation for WotC to keep on top of quality control. If they're embarrassed to show the mini in a preview, it should be a sign that someone, somewhere, dropped the ball and they need to go back and fix it.
Those two changes would make a world of difference for me. Because, really, if they aren't telling us exactly what the skirmish application may be, or they aren't showing us what the minis we buy will actually look like, then what's the point of the preview? Why not just release a setlist with the names, factions, and rarities of the minis? | |
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 04/30/2006 6:56 PM |
| | I want you guys to use WIlly Wonka technology so I can reach into my screen and take the mini. | |
Owner of The Original Rust Monsters!
DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60
Dreamblade: All | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 04/30/2006 7:05 PM |
| | I like the shoesim sadism of showing a few hints on stats. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 04/30/2006 7:39 PM |
| | I prefer no stats. As someone who doesn't have the time to review all the stats from previews and proxy build and get used to the "new" figures before the pre-release, I like that right now I am on a nearly even playing field in limited when maybe for a day or two at most others have had the stats to go through. I don't feel like I am going into pre-release tournaments at a disadvantage. If all the stats or even most were released before hand then I would have to seriously consider not playing in pre-releases. | |
Champion of Cyclops
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11492 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 04/30/2006 8:02 PM |
| | I like the hint of the stats that the previews give us. I'll have lots of time to look over the cards when I get my minis. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 04/30/2006 8:09 PM |
| | I agree with nameless - I prefer hints to full stats. | |
Owner of The Original Rust Monsters!
DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60
Dreamblade: All | |
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Queen of Lurkers
lurkinglidda
Warrior
231 Posts
| | 05/01/2006 2:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PrometheusEnslaved
2. Photos of Out-of-the-Box Minis. Seriously, do away with the paint Masters. I can appreciate the idea behind showing them and that desire to present them at their finest, but it's misleading, even fraudulent, and often disappointing when what we get doesn't remotely resemble what we saw. Don't show us the minis as they could be if we were professional painters. Show us what we'll actually be pulling from the boosters. Yeah, there will still be some variation from mini to mini because they're hand painted, but at least we won't experience the whole War Drums debacle again. Plus, I think it would be a strong motivation for WotC to keep on top of quality control. If they're embarrassed to show the mini in a preview, it should be a sign that someone, somewhere, dropped the ball and they need to go back and fix it.
This has already been addressed and resolved. | |
Assoc. Brand Mgr
D&D Minis
Wizards of the Coast | |
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