| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
| | Author | Messages | |
Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6686 Posts
    
 | | 05/14/2006 12:05 AM |
| Ok, so here's my beef... I consider the Dragon Shrine map to be a LE map. Why? Well, it is supposed to be Tiamat's temple... seems logical it would benefit her followers, right?
Yet, which faction has a large amount of decent cost hitters with elemental damage boosting their generally crappy damage? Hmmm... Lawful Evil?
The chaotics generally come with heavy damage units, that already have their magic weapon. Lawful tends to rely on energy damage to suppliment their damage to moderate (15) and that does not include a magic weapon to beat DR.
To me it seems rather ironic that a Temple of Tiamat, nerfs its own faction so to speak.
Anybody else kind of annoyed at this?
It takes too long to get into the room (2-4 rounds, fastest I found was the Green Dragon in 2 rounds) on the far side of the map, then you'll have another 2-4 rounds (or 3 rounds with the Green Dragon against a Wardrummer after breathweapon on 2nd round) trying to kill whatever is in there.
IMO is should have added +5 elemental damage to all attacks and been 5 2x2 squares near the center columns... afterall, weren't WotC trying to speed up the game? Nerfing damage tends to slow down game play (well unless you're chaotic). Also making fire and ice the start points seemed to be the ultimate F-U to things like the Chraals and Helmed Horrors.
I feel the Dragon Shrine is bunk, and honestly, something should be done about it - again, just my opinion.
And don't even get me started on the Wardrummer. Just what CE needed, now all we need is a musician for;
LG: adds +'s to hit, or +'s to move, or countersong for 19pts.
LE: add +'s to damage, or -'s to saves, or countersong for 19pts.
*gasp* *gasp* *holds chest*
/rant(s) | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
|
Aravis
Underboss
1155 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 12:22 AM |
| | It is kinda silly that a temple to the LE Aspect nerf's its own faction. But its a great defense map! I love it! | |
Welcome to Eternal Crack...
"Corn is no place for a mighty warrior!"
Champion of the Frost Salamander | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11492 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 05/14/2006 12:29 AM |
| From an RPG standpoint, you're right. But, remember that skirmish only loosely follows its RPG roots. Here are a few more things that people used to gripe about when DDM Skirmish was first released:
1) Melee reach doesn't threaten two squares away, only adjacent ones
2) The nerfing of spellcasters and ranged units but forcing them to target the nearest ally/enemy
3) No 5 foot step
Note that the latter two really hurt the chaotic good faction. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
| 
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 1:38 AM |
| I think the primary concern was to make a map that nerfs various kinds of elemntal damage. The idea to make it T-Momma's Temple seems like a logical extension of what they wanted to do.
I think the bigger irony is that Tiamat herself cannot be played in her own temple, since it's not an Epic map. | | | |
|
True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 2:13 AM |
| | Yea I just kind of see the "Tiamat's Temple" thing as more of fluff. As in there were just trying to figure out a way to nerf elemental damage, and they thought that the name would go along with it. I try not to look too much past that. It does suck that you start on either fire/cold. And in a LE band, you could easily have both, so you are screwed over either way. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
|
scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 05/14/2006 2:34 AM |
| | It doesn't really bother me that much. Sure, it seems a little silly, but it serves it's skirmish perpose well. | |
Champion of the Revenant
Knight of the Elf Duskblade
Complete Trades: Oni, Kidkach, Melrune, callidusx3 | |
| Darastrix Maekrix
dariustad
Warlord
6322 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 2:50 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
I think the primary concern was to make a map that nerfs various kinds of elemntal damage. The idea to make it T-Momma's Temple seems like a logical extension of what they wanted to do.
I think the bigger irony is that Tiamat herself cannot be played in her own temple, since it's not an Epic map.
Then, they should have built in a home-field advantage for her if she could. That's too much synergy to pass up. | |
Trade & talk in real time on IRC! SERVER: irc.psionics.net CHANNEL: #maxminis SOFTWARE: PC | PC (free) | MAC
Champion of ALL Dragons and the Dragon Shaman
][ My Trade Shoppe ][ Vindicated Champion of Aspects of Draconic Deities
| |
|
Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 3:19 AM |
| | The map would be quite interesting if it would increase elemental damage done by your warband. Then again the though of Helmed Horrors doing 20 damage per hit is a bit scary... | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6803 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 05/14/2006 3:20 AM |
| | While each dragon color can do a type of damage, that same dragon is immune to that type of damage, so it makes sense for there to be immunities. It would be odd if stepping on a fire shrine gave all units +5 fire damage instead of +5 Fire Resistance. | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
|
IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 3:22 AM |
| | I don't see a theme issue. The 2 relevant pieces in LE are the chraal and helmed horror, neither of which have anything to do with dragons or Tiamat. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6686 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 9:05 AM |
| Alot of people are saying to look at this as a skirmish tool, if that's the case, then skirmish-wise the Chraal and HH are very skirmish orientated and it should have been accounted for (which I believe it was - as a negative). With it adding +5 elemental damage, it would have been more of a positive.
From RPG, I don't see how resistance is a better alternative to damage. If everyone gains +5 elemental damage and the dragons are immune (excluding Blue Wyrmling) to a particular element, it kind of works in a dragon's favour to play on that map then, cause they'd have immunities in particular areas.
For the +5 elemental damage, I meant to anyone standing within a sacred circle type area, not just those creatures that already do elemental damage.
HH's would be scarey dealing 20 potential damage, but there are alot of fire immune creatures out there and Couatl (which seems to be very dominate right now in this neck of the woods). I don't think it would be too overpowering. A HGB would be doing 35dmg +5 to medium +5 elemental damage for a total of 45dmg per round! So, it wouldn't be faction specific. Ranged units could do their 5dmg +5 elemental damage, cause it wouldn't just be for melee. And it wouldn't be one guy supporting your whole warband, the mini activating would have to do it on the area in order to get the bonus.
I agree about the nerfing for CG ranged and spellcasters - has anyone here checked the rules for starwars minis? They have a rule that if you have cover and there is someone else infront of you you can not be targeted - this is an AWESOME rule, we should only be so lucky, and otherwise you can target anyone - HELL YA.
I can't wait for the LG map that gives anyone standing in their removes fearless from their enemy, or a CG map that reduces your enemy's speed to 4... /sarcasm. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
|
PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 9:56 AM |
| Tiamt is window dressing. Change the name to Protection from Elements map, and remove all the dragons, and suddenly you have no complaints?
The map was designed specifically as a counter to all the elemental damage that is out there. It was needed, and appreciated.
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
|
robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 10:09 AM |
| Yeah, what's all the hub-bub? It's a map that gives other factions some Couatl like capacity. Sure it nerfs some of the most popular LE pieces. Here's a hint: If everyone at your meta uses it don't play Chraals and Helmed Horrors! LE has a few other pieces that are just as cool, plus you can always send over an assassin piece to kill the mini that's causing the nerf. So what if it takes a few rounds. Are most of your games over by the third round? Most of mine aren't. It's a cool map and will see a lot of play so get used to it.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6686 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 12:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
Tiamt is window dressing. Change the name to Protection from Elements map, and remove all the dragons, and suddenly you have no complaints?
I believe the nerf is the complaint, not the window dressing - I just found it ironic that the window dressing chosen results in nerfing it's "own faction".
Hub-bub: It actually detracts from the Couatl's uniqueness of offering elemental resistances.
Even if it's not the current meta-game in the area, you still must account for it when building your warband. I don't think a map choice should cripple 2 warband choices this much, a little sure, but this really really hurts em. Infact I think it warps the meta-game, cause what lunatic is gonna play HH or Chraals with this map out there? Enter Marut/Couatl warbands en-mass.
I tried the assassination thing, it takes way too long and moves the battle back to that start area, where even more opponents swarm in, making it impossible to dislodge that warband from the location. No the games don't usually last 6 rounds because the HH's end up destroyed long before the offending figure can be dispatched. And generally a new one can takes it place immediately, or you've been based duking it out heavy hitter on moderate hitter on the spaces you're trying to avoid in the first place.
I'm saying this could have been done differently, and should've. I hope this map gets pulled from legal play. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
|
Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 1:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by greyhaze
Infact I think it warps the meta-game, cause what lunatic is gonna play HH or Chraals with this map out there? Enter Marut/Couatl warbands en-mass.
Well, if a lot of the players at the EU Championship qualify as lunatics, I guess. Reading through that warband list was kind of funny. "Helmed Horror, Helmed Horror, Helmed Horror, Helmed Horror...Chraal, Helmed Horror..."
Yeah, the winner was a CG player, but there were a LOT of Helmed Horrors there. Even the existence of this map hasn't forced them out of play; it's simply added another layer to the metagame considerations.
And I really hope it doesn't get pulled from legal tournament play. Sure, not playing on Dragon Shrine helps me; my default band uses a lot of elemental damage. But I'm willing to accept the risk that comes with playing on it if someone wins map init. I am essentially saying that I feel the risk of running into Dragon Shrine is outweighed by the advantages I'll get against certain popular pieces. | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6686 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 2:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus Knight
Yeah, the winner was a CG player, but there were a LOT of Helmed Horrors there. Even the existence of this map hasn't forced them out of play; it's simply added another layer to the metagame considerations.
Kind of proves the point. LE had a shot, obviously people think so, but along comes Dragon Shrine. So, speed and massive hps continue win. Now, I'm certain that all of this can't be attributed to Dragon Shrine, but I'm sure the smartest players know it's too much of a risk as it is. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
|
Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 3:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I don't see a theme issue. The 2 relevant pieces in LE are the chraal and helmed horror, neither of which have anything to do with dragons or Tiamat.
Speaking purely from an unmitigated hate position, I wish Dragon Shrine did more to nerf Helmed Horrors and Chraals.
The interesting thing is that it's not a terrible map for either piece. It has two central sacred circles, one of which is a shared victory area. Sure, you might lose fire or cold damage (and you might not), but you're also picking up free magic damage (and a +2 on attacks), which is great against the ever-more-popular Marut/Couatl (for which band the Dragon Shrine actually provides very little ... and yet they keep choosing it). | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
| |
|
True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 3:26 PM |
| Honestly with more and more maps being released, I doubt this map will be seen *all* the time. Its obviously a favorite right now, but I think somewhat thats because of the metagame. You'll see certain maps rise and fall as the game changes. And with more and more coming out, I'm sure this wont be the only one out there.
Also this gives you another reason to try to have a higher commander rating then your opponent. So you can win map initiative.
Dragon Shrine, Drow Outpost, Teleport Map, and King's Road seem to be pretty big favorites when you look at tournament reports. I've seen a few uses of the Broken Demongate tho. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
|
zenthrus
Warlord
5082 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 05/14/2006 5:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
The interesting thing is that it's not a terrible map for either piece. It has two central sacred circles, one of which is a shared victory area. Sure, you might lose fire or cold damage (and you might not), but you're also picking up free magic damage (and a +2 on attacks), which is great against the ever-more-popular Marut/Couatl (for which band the Dragon Shrine actually provides very little ... and yet they keep choosing it).
Couldn't agree more. Tri-horror played right might start in the fire nerf (losing side init), but won't stay there long. If your opponent wants to park there, you've got a very large map with the shared VP area/Sacred Circle in the middle. That's where the action takes place in about 90% of the games I've played on the Dragon Shrine. Granted, every piece in that region's going to rout on a failed morale check, but that just helps Helmed Horrors (and other fearless critters). | |
Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
|
cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 8:24 PM |
| | I don't like it either. LE is my main faction, but I'm starting to play more LG. Each faction and every warband has its weaknesses, but it seems like LE is just too easy to totally shut down. I might start another thread about that, but on the current topic- yeah, the Dragon Shrine seems like overkill. | |
Mine is an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
-Wash, Firefly | |
|
Kypdurron
Underboss
1206 Posts
Broken Hill
| | 05/14/2006 9:24 PM |
| | Nope i like It! | |
my trade data
email
Completed trades:Nixlord,Lexander , DarkFather x2 ,minotoman38 x2, Mojoical, Smilin Irish, Smithmeg, Bugsy, Doone, gmd316,Bossman.Dargoth
Bad Trades:Chaotic Good ,
,Champion Of Plush Wrackspawn | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6686 Posts
| | 05/14/2006 9:48 PM |
| | Nice to know someone else feels it. LE is my main choice too. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
|
orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 11:07 AM |
| I find the location of the exit are far more important factor on this map then the energy resistance. It is a great map for fearless or morale check causing bands.
ie CE wardrummer bands
LG warprist bands
LG fearless bands
LE fearless bands
Undead
etc
etc
| |
Yes I am Gelatinous.
www.gelatinousdudes.com
| |
|
Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 11:19 AM |
| I think it is a great map. It has interesting sight lines, the energy protection areas are a unique feature, it has the magic circles, great victory area, great locations for the exit (making fearless more important). I like the map.
I just don't know why tiamat would build a temple that protects her enemies from her aspect's/servants'/pets' breath weapons (RPG wise it makes no sense).
| |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 11:22 AM |
| I don't see it as particularly nerfing to LE. I mean Helmed Horrors and Chraals suffer on it, but I've played several non-HH/Chraal LE bands on it to good effect, particularly Shuluth Duergar Quad.
Its one of the most interesting maps in the game right now, and I don't think there is any reason to ban it. | |
I am not gone. | |
|
| | You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
| |
ActiveForums 3.7 | You must be signed in to participate in the
games. |