Anthraxus
Warrior
212 Posts
    
 | | 06/01/2006 2:53 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
Really? When I went to a WotC press conference at GenCon in 2003, shortly before the release of Harbinger, I got the distinct impression that the product was a skirmish game made up of creatures that, by no coincidence, were designed also for use in RPG play since they came (pretty much) straight from the books.
Besides, the RPG stats are on the back of the cards. [)]
Two devs at WotC walking down the hall- one carrying a load of new RPG books, the other with an armfull of plastic minis... Suddenly, they crash into each other!
While gathering scattered minis from the floor, one exclaims, "You got your RPG in my Skirmish game!"
The other, picking up his books, responds, "You got your Skirmish game in my RPG!" [)]
But seriously, as a ~90%RPG/10%Skirmish person, my main incentive to buy is the cool rares. If I see a bunch of nice looking and well sought after rares in a set, I buy by the case. Otherwise, I can pick up 5-10 rares and a bunch of Uncommons I want off the secondary market for less. | |
Yeah, I really need to work on my H/W list one of these days...
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 2:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Anthraxus
Two devs at WotC walking down the hall- one carrying a load of new RPG books, the other with an armfull of plastic minis... Suddenly, they crash into each other!
While gathering scattered minis from the floor, one exclaims, "You got your RPG in my Skirmish game!"
The other, picking up his books, responds, "You got your Skirmish game in my RPG!" [)]
And then the cop shoots them both, right? | |
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DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 3:07 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
You people are way too worried about the cute little tree guy and not spending nearly enough anger on the fact that the blackguard will FALL OFF HER HORSE as soon as a fight starts because SHE DOESN'T HAVE A DANG SADDLE.
Ahem.
EXCUSE ME SIR BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW YOUR D&D RULES BECAUSE IF YOU WANT TO RIDE A MOUNT IN COMBAT THE DC TO STAY ON A HORSE WHEN YOU TAKE DAMAGE OR THE HORSE DOES SOMETHING UNEXPECTED IS DC 5 BUT RISES TO DC 10 BECAUSE OF THE -5 PENALTY DUE TO A LACK OF SADDLE AND A BLACKGUARD HAS TO BE AT LEAST 7TH LEVEL WHICH MEANS THAT THEY CAN EASILY HAVE AT LEAST A 9 SKILL IN RIDE SO THAT THEY NEVER FAIL A DC 10 RIDE CHECK SO THE SADDLE WOULD BE A WASTE. [}:)]
Besides, some people just like to ride bare-back.
You're forgetting the circumstance penalties for having no hands free and for "you try to grab the mane to stay on the horse's back and OUCH HOLY CRAP ITS ON FIRE." | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 3:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ridureyu
Remember the Wardrummer?
Anybody still complaining that it's rare?
I think that the Wardrummer is a different beast. In most orc fighting bands there are more warriors than drummers. For a RPG representation of orc camp only a few drummers are needed. Not to mention the fact that by the time we got the drummer we had plenty of other orc sculpts.
I, too, would love to see the Wizened Elder a common miniature. I wouldn't count on it for my tree terrain as it's still too expensive for that but those I'd get from my cases could have been nice variation in the forest. | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 3:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
RPG is mentioned first in every reference.
And the RPG stats are only in the back of the card if you happen to see them that way [)]
You're putting a lot of stock in the order in which things were written, simply to make better-flowing sentences. And, I'm sure it's not possible that the text on those web pages could be different from how the product was introduced at the press conference I mentioned. | |
My H/W list is not current...
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Brimulk
Sneak
162 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 3:23 PM |
| Using War Drums as an example, I'm not sure I'd agree with the sentiment that most Rare choices are skirmish-based. Here is the list of all the Rares, broken down by how good a choice for Rare they are and (IMHO), why (skirmish and RPG).
Excellent choices:
Aspect of Moradin - Titan & God-like figure.
Aspect of Hextor - Titan & God-like figure.
Hill Giant Chieftan - Titan & chief.
King Obould - Unique & Leader
Shuluth - Unique & could be mindflayer leader
Warduke - Unique & iconic character
Sand Giant - Titan & Good giant (not commonly encountered)
War Troll - Titan & Troll leader (compared to Uncommon Troll Slasher)
Warbound Impaler - Big plant & not needed in bunches
Large Bronze Dragon - Dragon & Dragon
Gulgar - Decent skirmish figure & decent RPG use, but not uncommon
Chimera - Sculpt & complexity make it rare.
Good choices:
Arcane Ballista - Skirmish-limiting & Object (some people could use lots, some would not like lots)
Snig, Worgrider - Unique & larger than normal Worg rider (not ideal for pack of Worg riders)
Ogre War Hulk - Titanish & Ogre leader (to lead Ogre Skirmishers comming out soon)
Warforged Barbarian - Good in skirmish & not a common warforged type (compared to the bodyguard or commander)
Questionable choices (or could have gone either way):
Dragonne - Cheaper in skirmish & has a pack mentality. Sculpt was probably a factor, even with the few colors of paint.
Orc Wardrummer - Cheap in skirmish. However, drummers should be few and far between in an Orc warparty, compared to the troops.
Night Hag - Not complex sculpt. However, solitary creature in RPG, so probably made more sense to be rare.
Wemic - Pack creature. However, sculpt and skirmish power probably played a factor in making it rare.
Zakya Rakshasa - Good in groups. However, sculpt and/or future rakshasas may have lead to it being rare.
Khumat - Not a commonly used creature makes for a good rare. However, two-tone paint job made it look more uncommon.
Dragon Totem Hero - Bland paint job, looks uncommon. However, fairly high cost makes it a better than Inspired Leiutenant as a Rare.
Uncommons that could have been Rare:
Inspired Leiutenant - Best paint job of the uncommon commanders. However, matched in ability more by other uncommons when compared to Rare commanders.
Hill Giant Barbarian - Has the skirmish stats that would make Rare justifiable, but the designers seemed to have wanted to give RPG players an uncommon hill giant, and included a chieftan in the set to boot.
Fiendish Girrilon - Less common than Wemics or Dragonnes in groups, but simple paint scheme made it an easier choice for uncommon.
I'd say, at least in the last set, the designers did a good job of setting rarity to satisfy both skirmishers and RPGer's. There are definitly a few that could go either way, but they have to consider both types of players. They also have to consider complexity of the sclupt, and perhaps some that got bumped were replaced with simpler sculpts in order to complete the set run on time.
Just my two cents. [:)] | |
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 3:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
quote:
Originally posted by glumag
RPG is mentioned first in every reference.
And the RPG stats are only in the back of the card if you happen to see them that way [)]
You're putting a lot of stock in the order in which things were written, simply to make better-flowing sentences. And, I'm sure it's not possible that the text on those web pages could be different from how the product was introduced at the press conference I mentioned.
No, I am simply putting a lot of stock in the way things have been written and remained written since. Do you have a transcript of the press conf? (and we would have to take your word on it) cuz if not then we have to take the official page of the product I am afraid.
I know you like arguing for arguments sake but why are you even disputing the actual product page? they wrote it, it is there for all to see [eyes] [)] with any common sense and comprehension of the language it clearly gives you the feeling they were promoting an accessory product to RPG with a bonus feature of battle/skirmish! [:)] | |
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Cthulhufnord
Warlord
11113 Posts
Umass Amherst Baby!
| | 06/01/2006 4:04 PM |
| | A rare eh? That's very disapointing. I had this fig pegged as an uncommon at the most. | |
Pathetic Earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void - without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe - anything at all - you would have hidden from it in terror. | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 4:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
I know you like arguing for arguments sake
I do? I do?!? You're one to talk.
quote:
why are you even disputing the actual product page?
I'm not disputing it. It clearly says what it says. I am simply saying that mentioning something first doesn't mean that it's the primary function. Many sentences require that you put things in a certain order to make sense, especially if you have multiple points that you want included. To use the website example, it makes grammatical sense for them to mention the skirmish game last because they also want to mention the skirmish rulebook, and it would confuse many readers (possibly you?) to mention a rulebook and then the RPG aspect of the miniatures. After all, if the rulebook was mentioned first, then it must be the primary focus according to your rules.
quote:
with any common sense and comprehension of the language it clearly gives you the feeling they were promoting an accessory product to RPG with a bonus feature of battle/skirmish!
It may give you that feeling, but it's becoming clear that you don't have the requisite comprehension of the language to which you refer if you reach that conclusion so easily. Just look at how you reacted to (read into) Wayne's recent essay. | |
My H/W list is not current...
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 06/01/2006 4:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ridureyu
punctuation. please. punctuation.
*Sigh* doesn't nobody not got no sense of humor these days? | |
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Please note: The use of the  indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 06/01/2006 4:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
[...You're forgetting the circumstance penalties for having no hands free and for "you try to grab the mane to stay on the horse's back and OUCH HOLY CRAP ITS ON FIRE."
Just to be a butt-head:
Using no hands is a separate DC 5 ride check. Once made, you don't need to use your hands while riding for 1 rd.
As for the flaming mane... with a 9 ride skill, you pretty much don't need to worry about grabbing a mane when you're riding a skilled mount. There are a few maneuvers that would require a higher skill to do flawlessly. Leaping a bare-backed mount requires a 19 skill to risk no accidents... but maybe this is a 9th level blackguard with max ranks in ride, skill focu: ride and an 18 dex... | |
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Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 4:30 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
It may give you that feeling, but it's becoming clear that you don't have the requisite comprehension of the language to which you refer if you reach that conclusion so easily. Just look at how you reacted to (read into) Wayne's recent essay.
Oh Gawd! [eyes] Are we desperate enough that you are still holding on to that discussion so you can make a case for your thin argument? please, give it a rest Kith, when you are recalling crap that is in the past because you got nothing else to hold on to it only makes your point that much weaker.
You have to reach a conclusion quickly, they are not expecting anyone to "read between the lines" and understand what they mean...it is worded in a simple fashion...English might not be my first language but I sure do understand and know enough of it to get a point across; if I have to read some advertising twice to understand it then they are not doing a good job at marketing.
Besides, the only really arguing here is you, I can honestly give two craps about what points you try to put across [)] I was merely backing up Dariustad with proof and fact, not my interpretation of something I heard almost 3 years ago while attending an even with probably little sleep [:)]
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zenthrus
Warlord
5132 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/01/2006 4:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
As for the flaming mane... with a 9 ride skill, you pretty much don't need to worry about grabbing a mane when you're riding a skilled mount. There are a few maneuvers that would require a higher skill to do flawlessly. Leaping a bare-backed mount requires a 19 skill to risk no accidents... but maybe this is a 9th level blackguard with max ranks in ride, skill focu: ride and an 18 dex...
18 Dex and wearing full plate? Now you're just being silly [:P]
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 5:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
[...You're forgetting the circumstance penalties for having no hands free and for "you try to grab the mane to stay on the horse's back and OUCH HOLY CRAP ITS ON FIRE."
Just to be a butt-head:
Using no hands is a separate DC 5 ride check. Once made, you don't need to use your hands while riding for 1 rd.
As for the flaming mane... with a 9 ride skill, you pretty much don't need to worry about grabbing a mane when you're riding a skilled mount. There are a few maneuvers that would require a higher skill to do flawlessly. Leaping a bare-backed mount requires a 19 skill to risk no accidents... but maybe this is a 9th level blackguard with max ranks in ride, skill focu: ride and an 18 dex...
Yes, I am aware the ride rules are broken.
Heavily armored mounted combatant figures without saddles is 100% stupid. Period. Especially on a flying mount. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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KuH
Warrior
293 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 5:58 PM |
| I'm glad to hear from Shoe that this mini was originally concepted as a common or uncommon. At least our views are being taken into account, even if it didn't work out in this case.
I am very excited about the Tavern Brawler as an RPGer (though I'm torn between hopeful and fearful about the sculpt).
I don't really define certain minis as pure 'skirmish' minis. I guess a skirmish mini would fit one of the following categories:
1) Has a totally craptacular sculpt but great stats.
2) Has a rarity which doesn't match its' RPG desirability.
3) Is from an over-represented race/look (dwarf axe-wielder/orc fighter) rather than from an under-represented one (gnome/gnoll).
I for one loved the Orc Wardrummer. It looks really cool and you will only encounter one in most RPG situations. | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 6:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
An example would be a creature like the Red Slaad- it's a fairly simple sculpt with a fairly simple paint job. It's also the lowest CR of the Slaads and a creature likely to be encountered in multiples. All of these things make it a perfect choice for a large uncommon. However, it is assumed that because of its skirmish stats its a rare. A similar case can be made for the chain devil and numerous other figures that we RPGers want in droves.
Neither the Red Slaad or Chain Devil is any good in skirmish, so if the reasoning you were using is that these minatures are good in the skirmish game, and so occupy a rare slot, then I disagree. *something* has to be rare, and usually the 'cooler' figures tend to be the rarer ones. For RPG I'm sure having PC types as rares, and monsters common/ uncommon would be perfect, but for skirmishers, and the forgotten group (collectors), this is not the sort of rarity scale that would make the product attractive. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 06/01/2006 7:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Arandae
I can understand the reasoning that the 'Rare' status may be explained by the mini having lots of levels in a class - I'll bow to the sagely wisdom of those who are pointing that out [:)].
However, I don't understand how the decision to do that was reached. Having decided to make an obscure tree creature, they could have:
a) made it a low cost creature that worked in skirmish, and could be a common that (many) RPGers might have been happy to use as trees;
b) made it a high cost creature that worked in skirmish, but could only be a rare, resulting in frustration and bafflement for those RPGers who only found value in it as scenery.
Surely, any mini can be turned into a Rare by adding levels. It would be possible to make a mini of a cow pat and make it Rare by giving it levels in Assassin. But why do it, if a big section of your market is just going to end up being frustrated by it? I'm confused [?]
Agree totally. 'cept I want to see cow pat minis :| | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 06/01/2006 7:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by KuH
I'm sure you're right that this guy has some mega spell-casting powers.
And that's a fair comment about buying my trees elsewhere.
The truth is I haven't looked until now: I have been taking the default option of buying only DDM minis as my only role-playing figures and props. I also have the cleanliness of having everything fit together in terms of size, style, look, etc.
Maybe it is time to give up on that and start accepting that minis will fill only some of my RPG needs, and adjust my buying accordingly.
I may do the same.
I think it was clear though that they were made with the intent of dual use for scenery - why else state RPGers would want a bunch for that exact purpose. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 7:54 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
quote:
Originally posted by KuH
I'm sure you're right that this guy has some mega spell-casting powers.
And that's a fair comment about buying my trees elsewhere.
The truth is I haven't looked until now: I have been taking the default option of buying only DDM minis as my only role-playing figures and props. I also have the cleanliness of having everything fit together in terms of size, style, look, etc.
Maybe it is time to give up on that and start accepting that minis will fill only some of my RPG needs, and adjust my buying accordingly.
I may do the same.
I think it was clear though that they were made with the intent of dual use for scenery - why else state RPGers would want a bunch for that exact purpose.
Keep in mind what Matt writes, he writes himself. I don't think he's necessarily doing it with any special extra insight into what the design team was thinking, but is forming his own impressions. He doesn't typically even have the stat cards, I believe. | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 9:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by glumag
You have to reach a conclusion quickly, they are not expecting anyone to "read between the lines" and understand what they mean...
Well, you're not one to take people at their word, so this will mean nothing to you, but no native English speaker needs to "read between the lines" to somehow interpret that simply because the RPG is mentioned first that it's the primary focus of the product. Those who use it primarily for RPG purposes may believe it's that way, but that's not automatically the case based on the wording. Sorry. I majored in English and my career has been almost entirely proofreading and editing, so I know what I'm talking about. But then, you probably won't believe that either and demand some sort of proof.
quote:
I can honestly give two craps about what points you try to put across
Likewise.
quote:
I was merely backing up Dariustad with proof and fact
All you've proven is that you believe that the first thing anyone mentions in a list is the highest priority. Ever hear of "saving the best for last?" | |
My H/W list is not current...
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 10:05 PM |
| | Guys, stop the personal attacks. | |
Owner of The Original Rust Monsters!
DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 10:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ridureyu
Guys, stop the personal attacks.
Well, I'd just like to point out that glumag took some sort of offense to my first post in this thread and decided he had to "prove" me wrong. *shrug*
I guess I really just need to ignore him.
Any way to block certain users' posts from view, like at the WotC boards? | |
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blackthorne
Warrior
294 Posts
Sandwich, MA
| | 06/01/2006 10:34 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
Any way to block certain users' posts from view, like at the WotC boards?
I wish. | |
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 10:36 PM |
| Nah. Just respond all civil-like, like this.
"oh, dear, that is a very rude thing for you to say. I believe in honesty, chivalry, and politeness. Also, your mother is a prostitute." | |
Owner of The Original Rust Monsters!
DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60
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Kypdurron
Underboss
1206 Posts
Broken Hill
| | 06/01/2006 11:35 PM |
| | oh wow this has strayed a bit! | |
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glumag
Warlord
5968 Posts
| | 06/01/2006 11:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kithmaker
quote:
Originally posted by Ridureyu
Guys, stop the personal attacks.
Well, I'd just like to point out that glumag took some sort of offense to my first post in this thread and decided he had to "prove" me wrong. *shrug*
I guess I really just need to ignore him.
Nope, didn't take any offense, just thought I give my point of view, but I guess it doesn't count because you must be right. I never felt I needed to prove anything either, I just like to get my point across. I didn't feel any insults from you and I am hope neither did you.quote:
Any way to block certain users' posts from view, like at the WotC boards?
I've been asking Jai for that feature for over 6 months...unfortunately it aint going to happen on the current database.
I am sure we can ignore each other quite easily [)] Specially since I know you wouldn't call my mother a prostitute nor would I yours; that's just childish. | |
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ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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