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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
    
 | | 06/14/2006 5:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by trollbill
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I actually think the pre-release disqualification is fairly odd in DDM. I understand it a little better in MtG, where synergies are usually less obvious and there are more cards in a set and thus more things to keep track of, but DDM sealed play is still pretty much straightforward stuff.
While the official policy is likely a holdover from MtG, I am not going to complain about it. I will dearly miss pre-release tourneys, but I was given a choice of being given info that would allow me to write articles with more topical relevance to the community and not be allowed to participate in pre-releases, or not getting this info and being able to participate in the pre-releases. I, and others, decided we would rather better the community. So we were given our options and we made our choice.
Oh, I've never heard Guy or Derry complain either about not being able to play the pre-release. I'm probably just projecting it because I know it would annoy me to not play. [)] | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 06/14/2006 5:16 PM |
| Yes, seeing the stats ahead of time will give people an advantage over those who haven't seen them. But as others have said, this isn't an unfair advantage because the stats are available here for anyone to see.
Also, as has been already mentioned, skirmishers will have an advantage anyway, due to the numbers of RPG only folks who show up for prereleases. Additionally, anybody who frequents these boards will probably have an advantage over those who do not.
While people could in theory do practices for the prerelease with randomly generated boosters, I don't think that this would offer much advantage over those who've just seen the stats. Also, I think that the people testing new pieces on VASSAL (at least the few I've seen) are doing testing of constructed warbands rather than prerelease practice.
Honestly, I believe that player skill is a much more important factor than knowing the stats of all figures. A strong player will be able to pick the most competitive pieces from their pulls to build a warband. Knowing the figure's stats will only really help when making a choice between equally competitive pieces. This is where knowing the meta can help you make the right choice. For example, Angelfire had a lot of DR, so magic damage was important. Underdark had a lot of Conceal, so Blind-Fight/Blindsight were more useful than normal. In War Drums, you had to have a plan for dealing with the HGB. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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MechaKingGhidra
Sergeant
632 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 12:19 AM |
| | Actually, the only advantage I see for myself if I even find a way to go to the Edmonton pre-release, as it is the closest one, I'll only focus on how to maximize the minis of which are included of my favourites of the set. For example, if I hypothetically pulled an Aspect of Bahamut and a Small Black Dragon in the same booster(I know the pre-release gives you two boosters but I'm just focusing on only one for the purposes of this explanation), from the stats we have available it doesn't matter if I get the most powerful huge pull from everyone there and they all got double Huge Fiendish Spiders because I will have focused on how to use the Small Black Dragon most appropriately and I could easily lose using the AoB. My preferences are my downfall, I know. I'm obviously in the minority here but I'm saying that even those who know all of the stats beforehand won't necessarily focus on how to maximize their potential, taking in every factor and whatnot. Like I said, I could quite easily lose because I don't like a lot of minis and the concepts of which they were obtained from and at least in my mind that plays a major role on skirmish performance. Just my two cents. | |
Champion of the Prismatic Golem
MechaKingGhidra: Infamous for his absolute despisement of Red Dragons and devout worshipper of all Black Dragons. | |
| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 2:11 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Oh, I've never heard Guy or Derry complain either about not being able to play the pre-release. I'm probably just projecting it because I know it would annoy me to not play. [)]
I don't complain, but I do get very jealous! [:)]
I *really* enjoy playing limited events, but given my judging duties at the major cons, I don't have very many chances to play in limited events. There is a pretty small window of opportunity to play in limited events locally right after a set's release, and the prerelease is *the big one*, which – of course – I am forbidden from playing in due to advance knowledge of the stats.
Worse yet, for some sets, we don't schedule very many limited events locally. I only played in one for Underdark, and none for War Drums.
But to be honest, if I have the choice to get clarifications ready prior to a prerelease OR playing in that prerelease, I would choose to do the clarifications every time. Which is good, since I do have that choice [:)] | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 2:35 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Oh, I've never heard Guy or Derry complain either about not being able to play the pre-release. I'm probably just projecting it because I know it would annoy me to not play. [)]
I don't complain, but I do get very jealous! [:)]
I *really* enjoy playing limited events, but given my judging duties at the major cons, I don't have very many chances to play in limited events. There is a pretty small window of opportunity to play in limited events locally right after a set's release, and the prerelease is *the big one*, which – of course – I am forbidden from playing in due to advance knowledge of the stats.
Worse yet, for some sets, we don't schedule very many limited events locally. I only played in one for Underdark, and none for War Drums.
But to be honest, if I have the choice to get clarifications ready prior to a prerelease OR playing in that prerelease, I would choose to do the clarifications every time. Which is good, since I do have that choice [:)]
That kinda sucks that you can't play though. I'd think that given that last two sets have had all stats known before the pre-release/release that it wouldn't matter that much if you had prior knowledge. WotDQ is still weeks away and we know most of the set stats and all so I'd think you playing wouldn't be a problem. I certainly wouldn't mind if you did.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 4:22 AM |
| And we thank you Guy for making sure the Clarifications are ready =).
Honestly even with knowing the stats, its all a big random thing. So theres not much you can do without knowing what figures you are going to have ahead of time, which you dont. I dont really see it as a big deal, but then again it may seem like that to me since I've already seen the stats on here. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
| DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 4:32 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Oh, I've never heard Guy or Derry complain either about not being able to play the pre-release. I'm probably just projecting it because I know it would annoy me to not play. [)]
I don't complain, but I do get very jealous! [:)]
I *really* enjoy playing limited events, but given my judging duties at the major cons, I don't have very many chances to play in limited events. There is a pretty small window of opportunity to play in limited events locally right after a set's release, and the prerelease is *the big one*, which – of course – I am forbidden from playing in due to advance knowledge of the stats.
Worse yet, for some sets, we don't schedule very many limited events locally. I only played in one for Underdark, and none for War Drums.
But to be honest, if I have the choice to get clarifications ready prior to a prerelease OR playing in that prerelease, I would choose to do the clarifications every time. Which is good, since I do have that choice [:)]
The main reason I never complained is that I have been pretty quiet about the advance information. I know some may feel a little jealous and I have avoided it being a topic to avoid making anyone feel uncomfortable.
As for whether pre-release information is useful competitively, the information that Guy and I receive has been information that inhibits my competitiveness. Differences between the early and final versions of creatures (intentionally or not) are especially hard to remember. Changes to rules that occur and claifications of issues caused by new creatures are also things that make it difficult to remember and to play the game as it is today.
Thinking the arc of how warband choices evolve over time during the era of a release, I try to anticipate what warbands will emerge over time. This occurs prior to release, and may be great for anticipating and resolving issues. But once the set is out, I try to stop looking at the horizon and focus on the current reality. I have found it very challenging to focus on the game as it currently is.
If my primary goal was competitive play, I would have dropped receiving ANY advance information for two main reasons. The first and most impacting on me are the issues mentioned above. Wearing only the hat of a competitive player, I would much rather enjoy the game and see the spoilers like everyone else and have the same exploration discussions with the community. The second main reason having this information impacts competitive play is being shut out of some events due to the rules and my interpretation of those rules on what is fair. This means getting not getting to play in most prerelease and also not in some other events. Not getting to play impacts our local scene and the enjoyment of the game for Guy and myself.
I have been fortunate to be able to judge the major conventions for DDM (and still get to play in the championships that are not impacted by advance information.) This has an effect on my competitive rating because I play big events less, but judging has been a lot of fun and having major events go well is way more important to the community. I spend a lot of time building community locally, and judging at major events is just an extension of that.
I know that I like having solid information. Most of the key issues get at least semi-resolved prior to the pre-release events. This really limits the negative impact of rules issues on those events. The process of having that | |
Member of the Low Post Count but High Post Content Society | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 1:09 PM |
| Reading spoilers on a new set before the prerelease: fine
Reading articles on piece evaluations before the prerelease: fine
Bringing the article with you to the prerelease to help you build your warband: against dci rules | |
"Why am I all sticky and naked? Did I miss something fun?"
-Vindicated champion of Tordek, Dwarf Champion | |
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stephengroy
Underboss
1440 Posts
Tempe AZ Beeyotch
| | 06/15/2006 1:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
I am actually glad they are coming out because it will give me more time to write my aforementioned article. The third in the series! [)]
Well, there's THAT question answered!
Woo hoo! | |
Waiting for Chainmail Equivalencies since 2005
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 1:21 PM |
| I practiced with proxies on Vassal before the War Drums release. It helped me choose my warband more quickly, and have fewer questions as to how certain abilities interacted, thereby making the event more fun.
I still got clobbered at the actual event. Pre-planning only gets you so far. | | | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 2:55 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robby
quote:
Originally posted by Fry
Bringing the article with you to the prerelease to help you build your warband: against dci rules
Only once the tournament begins. You can't reference outsides notes during the tournament (or during the draft), but you can certainly pass them around and study them before.
I think I covered that with "to help you build your warband". And to forestall the likely question: robby meant "warband construction" not "draft". | |
"Why am I all sticky and naked? Did I miss something fun?"
-Vindicated champion of Tordek, Dwarf Champion | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 3:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fry
quote:
Originally posted by robby
quote:
Originally posted by Fry
Bringing the article with you to the prerelease to help you build your warband: against dci rules
Only once the tournament begins. You can't reference outsides notes during the tournament (or during the draft), but you can certainly pass them around and study them before.
I think I covered that with "to help you build your warband". And to forestall the likely question: robby meant "warband construction" not "draft".
Heh. I was just being very, very technical, to avoid someone saying "You're disqualified. I read that you couldn't bring the article to the prerelease". You can, in fact, bring the article with you to the prerelease. You just can't use it (or any other outside notes) during matches. [:)]
You know, re-reading the UTR section on Taking Notes more closely, the prohibition on referring to outside notes is only during matches. It does not explicitly prohibit the use of outside notes during "deck construction" of sealed matches. I think I'll pop this question to Guy or Ian on the Wizards board.
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PerpetualStudent
Sneak
173 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 4:41 PM |
| I am going to disagree with some of what has been said here based on the last two prerelease/release tournaments I played in.
I believe that player skill, and dice roles of course, has more to do with succeeding in any tournament - including a limited prerelease. Let me explain why.
I have read all the preposts for the last two sets and tried to build accordingly at the prerelease for Underdark. I did well, but I am not sure how much my early preparation helped because I pulled few of the minis I was hoping for.
Then, WarDrums came out and I really read everyting so that I would be more prepared. I opened my starter and pulled Snig Worg Rider as my rare, with no goblins. I opened my booster and pulled another Snig and still no goblins. I had none of the uncommons that were considered to be the best for this tourney, according to the articles posted on Maxminis. My commanders were only in the middle/average category (the inspring leut. and the new teifling) and I had to rely on a few hitters that were also getting average ratings or worse, like the Howling Orc. Just to fill out the points, because I was NOT going to use Snig, I added an elemental wall.
My opponets pulled Hill Giant Barbarian, Hill Giant Chief, Aspect of Hextor, Sand Giant, etc. I almost dropped before we even started, took my door-prizes and went home, but I had come with a friend and he had 2 Hill Giants so he wanted to play. I devised a quick strategy, play on the Dragon Shrine (our store let us choose the map we wanted rather than requiring we all play on the same one) and try to keep away from the really big guys. It worked! I played on my map every game, lured the hulking enemies down corridors that I would then block with the elemental wall, collect VPs, kill little stuff, and if I had to, make sure I hit first - I routed a Hill Giant Barbarian off the board before he did any real damage to me in one match. I ended up winning the tournament and declared the Elemental Wall the MVP - even wrote a short report here after.
So, I believe there is much more than knowing the 'good' figures ahead of time that goes into any game, and knowing may even prevent you from doing your best. I will read a few spoinlers, but I do not plan on doing any big studying before the next prerelease. | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 06/15/2006 10:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fry
quote:
Originally posted by robby
quote:
Originally posted by Fry
Bringing the article with you to the prerelease to help you build your warband: against dci rules
Only once the tournament begins. You can't reference outsides notes during the tournament (or during the draft), but you can certainly pass them around and study them before.
I think I covered that with "to help you build your warband". And to forestall the likely question: robby meant "warband construction" not "draft".
So, confirmed by Ian. You can, in fact, use the spoilers and articles during warband construction, if you wish:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9401172
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 06/16/2006 12:36 AM |
| I think there is some advantage going to those who read the spoilers, bring notes and like.
Those subbing combos on vassal or irl using other figures will have a bigger advantage. How long does it typically take to find all the flaws, misdirections and great synergies? Longer than reading it momments before war band construction.
Also helps to know what threats are likley, and what those threats weakness is.
I kinda disagree with the 'information is open to all' creed as I know many people won't find Maxminis. (it's not in results for google for DDM, ddm spoilers, d&d miniatures etc though other spolier sites are.)
However, I think luck of pulls, player skill, and even luck of dice are much more important.
I also think the % of players that are likley to win, will have equal access to the spoilers and thus be level field.
/2 cents
~
Intersting reading Guys, Derry's, trollbill's etc take on it - thansk :) | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
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Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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kingnanu
Warrior
214 Posts
| | 06/16/2006 1:23 AM |
| | I would agree with Bert the Troll. Of couse people who know the stats ahead of time have the advantage. But there are usually enough players who know them that it evens out in the end. Personally I enjoy knowing the state ahead of time as I usually have to make an army for my little brother who come with me to the prerelease. Making 2 warbands in 20 minutes would be nigh impossible if I had no foreknowledge. | |
Called shot for blood war: Leonal | |
| Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 06/16/2006 2:01 AM |
| | I would say that having the stats beforehand is definitely an advantage, but unfair, nah. A lot of the really serious players who have a good chance of placing well in a tournament will have the same resources. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 06/16/2006 5:54 AM |
| I like knowing the stats ahead of time just so I can sit there and look at possible synergies for regular 200 pt. In Sealed, I dont think it really helps a lot, but i'm sure it does a little. Since I plan on going to a prerelease this time around, its kind of nice to see whats out there and what kind of units you will be facing. And to know some of their weaknesses.
If you go to a prerelease, you will be able to look at your band and maybe know it. But looking at someone elses, and you've never seen the peices, it will be harder to remember and you will have to constantly ask "What does that peice have again". With foreknowledge, I might not know the specifics, but I know the Spellscale has 3 uses of Countersong, etc. Stupid accidents wont happen where I didnt remember so and so had this ability. I know you can look at the cards at anytime, etc.. but its nice to not have to do that and not bog down the game that way. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 06/16/2006 6:31 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robby
quote:
Originally posted by True_Blue
And we thank you Guy for making sure the Clarifications are ready =).
Seconded.
I'll third what Guy and robby said.
Having some knowledge of the pieces and the clarifications ready for pre-release tournaments is very beneficial to all those attending, especially the judges, and IMO will help make for a much smoother run event. [^]
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Liquidburn
Sergeant
944 Posts
| | 06/16/2006 7:16 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
Xeno hit the nail on the head, there is an advantage to it. I generally bring a print out of all stats and pass them around at the prereleases. That and I've never been to a prerelease where we didnt know the majority of the stats. Angelfire we didnt know two when I went (stone giant, orc wolf shaman) that was the closest to not knowing that ive seen.
I agree. I always seem to know the stats before we show up at the prerelease. It can help but really everyone has the oppurtunity to see them. | |
Jason Slingerland
"Why do I have to be Mr. Pink?" | |
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Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
| | 06/16/2006 10:27 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
I kinda disagree with the 'information is open to all' creed as I know many people won't find Maxminis. (it's not in results for google for DDM, ddm spoilers, d&d miniatures etc though other spolier sites are.)
The info is there, it is not hidden. We all found this site, so to can anyone else who cares to look. Any newb who picks up a booster, goes to the Wizards site and posts a message saying "where can I find spoilers" will get pointed here (among other places) pretty darned quick. | |
Champion of the Gelatinous Cube. Nemesis of Gnomes and Dinosaurs.
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil... prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. ~ Terry Pratchett | |
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