Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
    
 | | 06/26/2006 4:28 AM |
| It's not bad. It's not great either.
The beater has yet to be released that can really take advantage of teleport. AoK relies on aggression, which is a non issue here. Teleport will offer a new dynamic however. I actually prefer the EMAA I think since acid immunity is still rather uncommon and spell resistance is a foregone conclusion in Epic. FoD does provide the chance at auto-death although the DC could have been higher, but hey 1's happen. A Disintegrate would have been nice though.
Still it is an overcosted figure. About 60 points over I'd guess. A premium is being paid for a piece that is lacking personal damage output at the cost of 2 new, albeit powerful, spells.
I'll agree with True Blue, this is a very different piece, tactically, than the classic AM. I'm not sure but this may be a good thing, it gives more options. It is not as if the AM wasn't already viable in Epic. If an Epic Artillery piece is needed we already have Mordy.
Which brings a good point. I like that R&D can test new spells on these reissue cards without overcosting future figures. These cards are free, so no one is getting screwed over so to speak. By overcosting, real game data can be collected without disrupting to much. That's a win/win in my book. | |
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Janos M.
Underboss
1015 Posts
Hamburg / GErmany
| | 06/26/2006 5:22 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Prince o the Raven Banner
It's not bad. It's not great either.
The beater has yet to be released that can really take advantage of teleport.
cough***Purple Worm*** Cough
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My Haves and wants:
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warchanter
Sergeant
394 Posts
Italy
| | 06/26/2006 6:10 AM |
| | Thanks for the stats! Any chance we can get a scan, too? | |
Nexxstalker on WoTC Boards | |
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Liquidburn
Sergeant
944 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 7:00 AM |
| | Not at all what I would have expected, but still, pretty cool. | |
Jason Slingerland
"Why do I have to be Mr. Pink?" | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 06/26/2006 7:36 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Teleport is huge.
Teleport in, unleash two powerful spells on foes... and then watch the epic beater that you brought with you slam an enemy for 120 damage on top of your spells... nasty with a capital NAS.
And the loss of swords is not too bad... they were not too powerful in epic unless you had a lot of them.
My first reaction was, "no sword, wtf are they thinking?"
However, after looking at that teleport and the possibilities that it opens up? wow. | |
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Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 06/26/2006 7:42 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Salean
Playing epic archmage would be a huge waste in epic. He's garbage.
Not to pick a fight here but how can you even know that without actually playing the damn thing???
I'm gonna hold off judgment until I can see how it works "in production." | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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XAos
Underboss
2413 Posts
London
| | 06/26/2006 8:41 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
Not to pick a fight here but how can you even know that without actually playing the damn thing???
I'm gonna hold off judgment until I can see how it works "in production."
While one clearly can't definately know, without a lot of testing. However, a lot of tournaments get played without having time to rigourously test every new figure. So a fast estimate is often more valuable than an accurate analysis that you won't have till next month....
Many of the players on these forums have spent more than a year refining ways to quickly analyse new figures. And then tested those methods against each new relase as it comes out.
I doubt anyone would claim such results are perfect, but they do give a "ballpark" estimate of which figures are strong & which arn't.
In the case of the epic archmage; it's pretty much relying on the finger of death & 2 teleports to be worth that huge cost. The 20 acid damage is not going to be worth anything like 264 points.
with only 246 points left in a 500 point warband, the teleports are slightly dubious.
And the finger of death is only going to be reliable against the GoL save=10 figures. Most of which are obsolete anyway.
What that tells you is not that the figure is certainly worthless. But that, unless you can find a powerfull synergy with the rest of the warband, then it is worthless.
Significantly, it's not worth bidding $$'s for on ebay to get it. | | | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 06/26/2006 8:53 AM |
| But the other side of that coin is that some figs look great on paper but then when played, just don't pan out too well. If you never play it, how will you know for sure?
I just find it rather annoying when people dismiss a figure out of hand without doing any testing, but to each his own. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 9:12 AM |
| What I don't get is why we can't have a mage that has a lot of spells, so that the player gets to choose the role. I know that "complicates" the game and "you couldn't possibly cast that many spells in a skirmish" as we've heard before. But, why not give the AM spells that make it capable of 2-3 different roles, and let the player use it as wished. The swords DEFINE the current AM, this one should have them.
No one has mentioned the hitpoints yet. Yes, mages have low hitpoints in the RPG. But, this guy is going to die very, very fast once he starts taking damage. | |
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 10:45 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by rhane
DC 19 on finger of death...hmmm. Teleport is interesting...but not at that price.
Give me 2 regular Archmages and the points, thanx.
QFT. | | | |
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Toxic_Rat
Sergeant
745 Posts
Lehi, Utah, USA
| | 06/26/2006 11:50 AM |
| The Young Master was pretty much 'worthless' until the Gith Monks showed up. Had a use but nothing to post about.
Remember that the last piece that had real ability to move allies around the battlefield got itself banned. I don't know that teleport is going to be that big, but I bet the designers want to be real sure. R&D isn't looking for a piece to overtake everything. Being conservative can be a pain, but it provides for real growth in the long run.
Besides, wouldn't it be nice to be able to teleport to a spot next to a figure that had 5 HP left, and quick cast it away to safety? That's a form of point denial that we've not seen before. Or maybe move a routing piece to where it can see a better commander, or just farther away from the exit. Lots more possibilities that we're seeing here. | |
Any time you try to make something idiot-proof, someone always goes out and invents a better idiot.
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MikeyChraal
Warrior
254 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 06/26/2006 12:01 PM |
| [:(] I would much rather use 3 regular archmages! The epic one is sooooooo over priced.
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/26/2006 12:41 PM |
| I'm really looking forward to all the cool options this gives. Paralysis at a distance, following by a quick-cast teleport to drop a beater next to a paralyzed foe could be great.
He is expensive, that's for sure. But, what R&D do know, and what we don't know, is what other epics are on the horizon. I'm sure they've play-tested teleportation quite a bit (this is one of those spells I was calling for in previous posts and I'm thrilled to see it).
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 06/26/2006 12:41 PM |
| Hey, rememeber when everyone was calling the arcane ballista useless?
Try him out. Those teleports are *nasty*. | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13069 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 06/26/2006 12:44 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Hey, rememeber when everyone was calling the arcane ballista useless?
Try him out. Those teleports are *nasty*.
See? Stuff like this is exactly what I'm talking about. Don't condemn until you can try it out and find interesting uses. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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ArchMage7
Sergeant
358 Posts
CA, USA
| | 06/26/2006 12:48 PM |
| thanks for posting the stats.
Two teleports, and unlimited EMAA ain't so bad. Basically looks like he traded in his two DD for two teleports which will be interesting. I was hoping he'd still have his mordy swords spell becoming an epic and all or like an empowered version of mordy swords that deal 20 to 25 dmg a turn (that would be cool).
I still think he's overpriced for what he does imo. Can't wait to get one of these cards [:D] | |
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ehren37
Sergeant
642 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 12:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by dariustad
Looks like another epic card that could have had a lot of "bang" but limped and whimpered its way into production.
It feels like the addiciton to overpricing that plagued dragons to uselessness for years (and is still hampering them) has been moved over to epic cards.
Specifically the league epic cards. They've all been overcosted with sorry damage output for their costs. I'm guessing its due to not playtesting them very much, so just making them flat out bad to avoid any real game impact as a result. | |
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Brimulk
Sneak
162 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 2:20 PM |
| It is definitly a different beast than the regular AM, but I don't think it is horrible. Is it as efficient as the standard AM? No, probably not, but I doubt any of these retail kit Epic cards will be. But paired with a Purple Worm, Fire Elemental or Epic Griffon Cavalry and that Teleport (plus the swift spells after) could be huge. You won't get more than 5-6 activations with that, but you can play a cat and mouse game with those teleports and sight spells. When they get close to you and your beater, cast one of your range 6 spells, then swift teleport you and your friend away.
I realize that reliability and odds of successful die rolls are very important to those who play in big tournaments and such, but sometimes it comes down to risk/reward. Finger of Death could kill a key piece in one shot, as could banishment. Mordy's sword is more reliable than those spells, but the reward of a one-shot kill might be worth it.
It definitly requires different tactics than the standard AM, but I would certainly try playing it before deciding if it is worthless. Then again, anything that adds variety to the game has some level of worth to me, anyway. [:)] | |
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Salean
Skirmisher
8 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 2:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by taliesin
Uh... Epic Archmage is 264 pts. Kord is 65. FB is 52. I think I can fit 3 solid hitters, a commander, and some filler into those 236 points and still hit eight activations.
Not every new release has to knock your socks off to still be a decent choice.
I meant you can only teleport one at a time. Even then the pyromancer is still a better call for giving mobility to a unit considering you're saving 200+ points.
Also they should knock my socks off. They're extra and something more. They're prizes in tournaments here. But they often come up short. Look at Mounted Paladin. He has Mounted Melee Attack, but no Melee Reach. So if he wants to do the Drow Mounted Patrol thing of hit and run, he's taking an AoO every single time. It's just sad to have the chance at another cool epic which falls flat.
quote:
Originally posted by Toxic_Rat
Remember that the last piece that had real ability to move allies around the battlefield got itself banned.
Yup. But CG also has the Evermeet Wizard who can transposition two allies, has two MAA, and has summon monster to assist in transpositions, activations, and grabbing points. Another 'teleport', but only for 39 points.
quote:
Originally posted by Toxic_Rat
Besides, wouldn't it be nice to be able to teleport to a spot next to a figure that had 5 HP left, and quick cast it away to safety? That's a form of point denial that we've not seen before.
That's true though and I look forward to it since it's new and innovative. But is that worth 264 points?
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
Not to pick a fight here but how can you even know that without actually playing the damn thing???
Nah, I'll bite. I know because I can compare him to Mordenkainen or to Elminster, either are 5 more points then Epic AM. Both have better level/save, better AC, better HP. Both are commanders with good effects. Both Elminsters and Mordenkainens spells are better as well. They output more damage with higher DC's.
The EMAA is the best you're getting for AM. Against LG though it'll be halved because if you're playing someone worthwhile they'll have a Couatl. Saying that against SR All it'll work well is also a bit of a strawman because there are currently 4 SR All minis. (soon to be 5 with Cadaver Collector) The clay, flesh and stone golems aren't very good in epic. The IG is the only thing you're going to see tied to a commander. Even then you need 6 EMAA to drop a single IG. Assuming the IG is in an LG band playing couatl you need 11. (All non epic of course, Epic IG is another matter)
You have two hold monsters at DC 17. Most things in epic that I see have a save of 10 or higher. All the epics that are coming out now have saves above 10, most being 13 or 14. Failing the hold monster save will be a challenge.
Banishment is a fine spell with a good DC and a high hp requirement.
Epic Archmage also gets two. But you can run two normal archmages and get two also, with the same DC, and the same hp requirement, all for less points. You get a bunch of swords then too.
The Finger of Death for some unholy unknown reason has a lower DC than Banishment. It's minis so I'll overlook the RPG explaination of why a level 7 spell has a min DC of 20. But 19 is still a low DC. Sure the couple of times you roll a 2 or 3 pay off, but it's not consistant.
It's Epic Balor syndrome, he's priced on what he can potentially do, not what he does.
You can run Epic AM with non epic Elminster, and that'll make the DC's just fine but you're lacking a solid frontline.
All in all the mini is overcosted. I don't want an interesting use. I want to win. | |
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Vash
Underboss
1995 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 2:34 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Salean
Also they should knock my socks off. They're extra and something more. They're prizes in tournaments here. But they often come up short. Look at Mounted Paladin. He has Mounted Melee Attack, but no Melee Reach. So if he wants to do the Drow Mounted Patrol thing of hit and run, he's taking an AoO every single time. It's just sad to have the chance at another cool epic which falls flat.
This is really the only part I want to comment on. Since I don't skirmish.
They shouldn't knock socks off. Yeah, they are prizes in a tournament. However not everyone can make said tournaments, or get these Epic cards. If they made an Epic card that was everything and the kitchen sink, it would REALLY unbalance the playing field. Someone like me, who gets no local skirmish support (hence why I dont play), gets shaffed and possibly turned off by the game if there is some card (card, not even a mini) that makes it so impossible for me to be competitive because of it's very existence.
quote:
All in all the mini is overcosted. I don't want an interesting use. I want to win.
Of course, if you adopt a "play to win, nuts to new and innovative" attitude, then I could see why one wouldn't care whether or not a card imbalanced play.
Simple solution, if you don't like the stats of the Epic Archmage, play something else [:)] | |
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King of Ping
Skirmisher
1 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 3:30 PM |
| quote:
I don't skirmish.
This is pretty evident. Just because not everybody can have one doesn't mean it shouldn't be good. Why do you think there's a system of commons, uncommons, and rares? Beholder is a fairly potent mini, and everybody most certainly does not have one.
Besides, if you want a retailer Epic card, just go to ebay. They're no more than 5 bucks. Unless you're living in some third world country, that shouldn't be an issue. But if it somehow is, I'd really like for you to explain your internet connection. | |
**** you, small child! | |
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Wish
Sergeant
399 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 3:38 PM |
| I think Moon Elf Fighter will be the commander of choice for this guy, along with the ubiquitous Inspiring Marshall. Archmage teleports in (using tactics) along with a beater or blaster and quickcasts to blast something, then the beater/blaster activates and tears something up, and the Marshall grants them both a move action to get back out of danger.
Or perhaps Ryld, for the +8 init, so you can try to teleport in, beat on something at the end of the round and again at the start of the next, then teleport out.
Editted to fix my misreading of tactics. No idea where that came from. | | | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 3:48 PM |
| Actually, remember that these cards *are* available to everyone. They are downloadable within a month, and besides the initial problem, they have been pretty consistent putting them up the past few months. So anyone can download them and they are "legal".
Becuase of this, there is no reason to make these epics any crappier than any other epic that comes in a booster. These are just as available as any other one. So.. hopefully WotC will start to cost these a little better.
I realize you guys see some cool stuff in Teleport, and thats great. But I cant see paying half my band's cost for it, the damage output on this guy is pretty craptastic. Even if you add in a beater to teleport with. And the other guy is going to have a bunch of units that will have some damage output.
*shrug* to me, I just dont see any advantage or strategy in running this guy. | |
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Meds
Warrior
286 Posts
Alameda, CA
| | 06/26/2006 4:54 PM |
| I will try to find time to get a scan or photo up within the next few days.
quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
Hey, Martin... we're playing epic on Monday at Endgame... it'd be a perfect time to try him out...
Heh, thanks I'd love to, but I am looking after the kids tonight. | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 5:44 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by King of Ping
quote:
I don't skirmish.
This is pretty evident. Just because not everybody can have one doesn't mean it shouldn't be good. Why do you think there's a system of commons, uncommons, and rares? Beholder is a fairly potent mini, and everybody most certainly does not have one.
Besides, if you want a retailer Epic card, just go to ebay. They're no more than 5 bucks. Unless you're living in some third world country, that shouldn't be an issue. But if it somehow is, I'd really like for you to explain your internet connection.
No they shouldn't be THAT great. We don't want to create a system of unequal access like MageKnight and other games did in the past with different stated exclusives. Exclusives ruin games. Sure not everyone has a beholder, but everyone has equal chance to pull a beholder out of box.
Also while you find that it "is pretty evident" he doesn't skirmish, you should have probably used a better example than the Beholder if you wanted to strut your skirmish stuff, its not like outside of sealed its out there whipping up in the top tourney scene. Maybe the Marut, Young Master, or Kord would have been a better example.
The key is you shouldn't HAVE to go to Ebay to competitive. The only argument for them being as competitive as regular epics is that Wizards has been very very good at getting them posted in time (like True Blue said) | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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ehren37
Sergeant
642 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 6:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by True_Blue
Actually, remember that these cards *are* available to everyone. They are downloadable within a month, and besides the initial problem, they have been pretty consistent putting them up the past few months. So anyone can download them and they are "legal".
Becuase of this, there is no reason to make these epics any crappier than any other epic that comes in a booster. These are just as available as any other one. So.. hopefully WotC will start to cost these a little better.
Except because they are a freebie, theres less incentive to spend any dev time on them. | |
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merocka
Skirmisher
3 Posts
| | 06/26/2006 6:31 PM |
| I'll stick to two regular AM thank you
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Aravis
Underboss
1155 Posts
| | 06/27/2006 1:48 AM |
| Echoing what people have said. I would much rather have 2x Non Epic Archmage. He could have been sooooo much better..where the Chain Lighting..Meteor Swarms..Maximized Magic Missle/Fireball/Lightning Bolt..or heck. The Cone of Cold!
He could have had soooo much stuff but he failed..Teleport is nice but not at that cost. | |
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warchanter
Sergeant
394 Posts
Italy
| | 06/27/2006 4:32 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Aravis
Echoing what people have said. I would much rather have 2x Non Epic Archmage. He could have been sooooo much better..where the Chain Lighting..Meteor Swarms..Maximized Magic Missle/Fireball/Lightning Bolt..or heck. The Cone of Cold!
He could have had soooo much stuff but he failed..Teleport is nice but not at that cost.
Epic archmage (264), Elminster (100), Archmage (98) + 38 points filler. Could be fun! | |
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dulsin
Sneak
171 Posts
| | 06/27/2006 9:44 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by warchanter
Epic archmage (264), Elminster (100), Archmage (98) + 38 points filler. Could be fun!
Maybe but Elminster only gets to use spells of casters with lower point costs. If you want El to have those teleports he will need to be the Epic el. | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 06/27/2006 10:16 AM |
| Why all the hate. I think it looks pretty good.
I am not a huge Epic player, but I think you could would out a nice band around the concept of teleporting in a hitter, casting a spell and then letting the hitter hit. | |
Sean Banks
Champion of Elementals
Official Organizer
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dulsin
Sneak
171 Posts
| | 06/27/2006 1:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by striderlotr
Why all the hate. I think it looks pretty good.
I am not a huge Epic player, but I think you could would out a nice band around the concept of teleporting in a hitter, casting a spell and then letting the hitter hit.
I think the concept is great. And if this was a 150 point figure I would be all over it. But this figure is over half of any epic band. You can not aford a decent hitter after buying this.
My thought was using him to teleport Epic Iron Golem around but you can't aford that many points for a tech piece and it isn't good enough to be a titan.
For the price of this thing I could add 2 archmages (with 4 mordies swords) and 2 wand experts. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 06/27/2006 3:17 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by dulsin
My thought was using him to teleport Epic Iron Golem around but you can't aford that many points for a tech piece and it isn't good enough to be a titan.
Even if it wasn't cost-prohibitive, you can't TP an IG, Epic or not. SR All prevents it, since the TPed critter is part of the spell's range. | | | |
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