Vrecknidj
Warlord
10492 Posts
    
United States
 | | 08/04/2006 7:35 AM |
| Edit (August 5 about 14:00 GMT): There has been much new material posted on ENWorld about this.
From ENWorld:
D&D 4th Edition News
*
Yes, you saw that right. I've just added a news category for D&D 4th Edition News. Why? Because today I saw my first bona fide 4E rumour, and it came, aptly enough, from Eric Noah:
On a more serious note ... it is ironic that even yesterday I got some major scoops about the future of D&D. It is sounding like some of our most paranoid fears are in fact in the works.
-4E already in the works? Check.
-Even more miniatures-centric? Check.
-Much smaller bundles of game info, packaged and sold separately? Check.
-A plan to possibly sell off RPGs entirely? Check. (Apparently only miniatures and Magic are making any money for WotC).
Unfortunately I can't go into how I got the info or who gave it to me. And I don't think even WotC knows when they're going to announce anything. I got the impression that timing such an announcement with GenCon was no longer seen as optimal or necessary. But please take all as unsubstantiated speculation ... as usual!
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10492 Posts
United States
| | 08/04/2006 7:37 AM |
| And, over at WotC:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=679684
And, over at ENWorld (300 replies in a day?):
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=170474
And, over at RPG.net:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=278418
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 08/04/2006 7:40 AM |
| Wow! [:0]
More miniatures based can be a good thing. [:p]
Costing me more $ for D&D products can be a bad thing. I can spread my $ only so thin. [:(]
Only making $ on miniatures (and that other game) is no surprise and they will likely be making even more $ with the price increase(s) planned for future miniature products. [}:)]
All in all, good news. [:D]
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Count Dooku
Commander
4637 Posts
New York
| | 08/04/2006 7:45 AM |
| I look at how I own every WotC book spit out since 3rd edition.
Every issue of Dragon and Dungeon since the swich to 3rd.
All my Kingdoms of Kalamar books. The Worlds Largest Dungeon, the Classic Dungeon Crawls from Goodman Games, all the adventures from Necromancer games, all my Freeport stuff....I think about how Ptlous is on the way preordered...The Savage Tide adventure path thats comming.
I have enough stuff to live and die a lifetime 10 times over and wouldnt run out of d20 material to play with.
I will not be switching..I will just stop buying and use all I have.
I hoped this wouldnt happen so soon. This is HORRIBLE news.
And making the game more miniature related is bad. Not everyone uses minis...Obviously I do...But the game is becomming something much different than what it used to be. Its becomming a game of minor roleplaying that leads from one mini-battle to the next. So sad :( | |
Champion of the Skulk
Vindicated Champion of the Twig Blight | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10492 Posts
United States
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jedijon
Sergeant
474 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 8:25 AM |
| Hey Count--
From my limited understanding of the history of D&D (being only 25 and not really playing the game. But, weren't all of the initial roleplaying games just table-top miniatures games taken to their utmost complexity with loose rules (interpretable only by the GM--hence the birth of the player/GM relationship) that allowed for some roleplaying to take advantage of that rules laxity to provide a more than just a system of numbers game?
Isn't this just getting back the roots of the hobby?
Well, enough devils advocate for me. | |
*WoTC Delegate (Chicago)* :=: My Trade Thread :=:
DISPUTED TRADE WITH TREE DRUID!!!!!!!! | |
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yack
Commander
3320 Posts
Gatineau Canada
| | 08/04/2006 8:39 AM |
| Role Playing is the best part of D&D..been playing the game since the early 80's. Miniatures at that time were rarely used or seen as it was game that existed in your imagination not as laid out for you too see.
I will be skipping also 4th edition as I have a good collection of 3rd edition also too last a long time plus can create from there on in. I will leaf through it but it will have too be something amazing for me too convert yet again! (I skipped 2nd edition by the way) | |
Champion of the Peryton
Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer
DW: Duergar Priest
RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM | |
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Count Dooku
Commander
4637 Posts
New York
| | 08/04/2006 8:41 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jedijon
Hey Count--
From my limited understanding of the history of D&D (being only 25 and not really playing the game. But, weren't all of the initial roleplaying games just table-top miniatures games taken to their utmost complexity with loose rules (interpretable only by the GM--hence the birth of the player/GM relationship) that allowed for some roleplaying to take advantage of that rules laxity to provide a more than just a system of numbers game?
Isn't this just getting back the roots of the hobby?
Well, enough devils advocate for me.
Possibly...But wouldnt the game reverting to a tabletop miniature game again be like D&D de-evolving? | |
Champion of the Skulk
Vindicated Champion of the Twig Blight | |
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Cheddar Bearer
Warrior
298 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 8:50 AM |
| This does not bode well for the hobby if all this is true. Don't get me wrong I'm glad that minis are doing well but ultimate it is roleplaying game. The minis are their to make d&d combat easier (and because they look cooler than using pennies as tokens).
I too my skip on fourth edition if it does indeed go down this route. I don't begrudge them changing to third edition as it simplified the rules and was the first time i ever could get into d&d (2nd edition confused the hell out of me). I was even alright with 3.5 as there where some rules that worked better and for the most part all my 3.0 stuff was compatible. but going to fourth edition so soon.
They are becoming worryingly similiar to games workshop (whck out an addition every few years just to make more money), which was one of the reasons why i gradually left the hobby. It really doesn't bode well for the hobby. On the plus side i have so much 3/3.5 edition stuff i could easily make do with it the rest of my rpg-ing life.
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lantern314
Sergeant
684 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 9:29 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Cheddar Bearer
whck out an addition every few years just to make more money
Should they stop making money? The real kicker is how do you as a business continue to make money. With a game like D&D there will reach a saturation point with any edition where everyone who is interested has all the books really needed to play. At that point you can either grow by adding new players which is so slow as to not really be growth at all. You can add extra books which may add new options to play, but aren't really necessary; but, that also saturates very quickly, most players don't buy all of the books. Your last option is to put out a new edition and get that mass of players to rebuy. If all you have put out is the three core books and nothing else for the last 3 years it isn't that big a deal. When you have put out dozens of books that people have bought, then they look at that shelf and think, "what a rip off." Of course the truth is that if you have the three core books you don't really need the company any more. As long as your brain works and you are at least a little creative you can play forever with just those three books, so any changes the company makes to the game you can just ignore. We have a guy here who still plays 1st edition, because he owns everything he needs to and likes how it plays.
Liberate yourself from the shackles of buying new books. Revel in your imagination. Don't worry about 4th edition. | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 9:35 AM |
| Hrm...
While WotC may not think that making an Annoucement at GenCon is "Optimal or necessary", they do want to control the annoucement to avoid destroying the remaining gaming stores. A ton of them were closed last year after a very bad year, and if they all got stock with shelves full of 3.5 books because of poor control of the 4e launch, it could put even more under...
If things are starting to get run up, we WILL hear something more out of Gen Con, I'm sure of that.
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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griffrat
Commander
3507 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 9:38 AM |
| Here is my thoughts on the subject with the limited knowledge of the truth behind the rumors.
Rumors of a 4th ed tend to spring up around the time of Gen Con. There is always a "big thing" going to be released at the Geek Mecca (no offense towards muslims, just many of us look at this as a "holy" place). Since there is always a sense of mistrust on the side of the people towards the game makers (GW games springs to mind like a thief in the night).
With that out there; lets talk about the rumors.
The words that I am hearing about WotC outsourcing D&D. WotC getting out of RPG. Kinda seems counter intuitive to me. I mean the reason the DDM line is really making cash for the corporate is the three prong approach (for those just tuneing in skirmish/RPG/collector). You eliminate one of those prongs that means you are going to have to support the other two really hard.
I hear the wife saying something about Dr. Phil saying, "The past behavior is an indicator of future behavior." I bring this up as there is more support for Dreamblade than there is DDM from where I am sitting. I don't skirmish, but I read the boards here about the net. I saw the amount of displeasure from the hardcore DDM folk about the support. Mind you this is just my outsider opinion of the support of skirmish and I might be dead wrong. Like I said I don't skirmish but it is the "preception I have"
So, this leaves the collector. I can't see all the collectors out there buying the amount of DDM needed to sustain the profit margin. The reason there are collectors is due to the other two parts of the "prong" approach to the sales. The main reason the collector values the stirge, for example, so much is the other two prongs.
With this line of logic (I am not saying I am right I am just explaining my position) I can't see WotC getting rid of RPG all together.
As to the gloom and doom of Monte Cook no longer writing games..
With Monte Cook saying he is out of games. Well, Okay. I know he has produced tons of great stuff. There is no doubting this. But you mean to tell me that he is the only guy that can come up with stuff? Nothing against MC, but look at Kieth Baker (Ebberon creator, and no relation I know of [:D]) and Rich Burlew (OOTS writer and the guy that came in second to K. Baker in the campaign setting). They have come out with a ton of new stuff as well. This stuff is fresh, new and a different direction. At least to me it is/was.
So, with these rumors. I am taking them with a grain of salt for the exact reason the Count Dooku states. Dungeon, Dragon and almost every WotC book in print since the 3.X revolution. I can run D&D in a nuclear fallout shelter until the sun grows cold. Or the food runs out. [)] I want to support WotC as they make some very good products.
However, I think it would be in the best interest of WotC to take notice of the synergy between the RHoD/MMIV/WotDQ/DragonD Grotto and the spike in minis/terrain interest. Meaning that a good RPG can really spur sales in other markets. I seem to recall a thread about the "cross pollenation" of product lines working really well.
Granted there may be some other "Great and Powerful" thing behind the scene at WotC that none of us know about that is causeing a shake up. So time will tell.....what is truth and what is bunk. | |
Ambassador of FUN!!! | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4136 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 10:42 AM |
| Well I'm going to take a wait and see approach with this one. I have an extensive D&Dv3.5 library and I see absolutely no need to upgrade to a different system. I have two complete campaign settings (Eberron and Dragonlance), virtually all the supplimental books, etc. Assuming I can continue to find motivated players, I could continue with this system for a generation or more. It would take a remarkable improvement to motivate me to switch editions.
I will probably continue to pick up the miniatures line, at least in moderate quantities (baring some major change like a shift in base sizes or something similar).
As a side note: if the miniatures line is the only thing making a profit, why don't they continue to develop that and scale back their hyper-aggressive publishing schedule? Fewer, higher quality books would be a tremendous improvement from the numerous poorly edited suppliments they've been producing this year.
LM | |
Have: Cat; Want: Storm Giant
Champion of Anything Dragonlance
Before trading, please check the Disputed Trades Thread | |
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Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7703 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 10:53 AM |
| Kind of funny that they'd do this and are just releasing the collector's MM.
Of course miniatures is making them money, it's probably making them a mint. And they're raising the prices anyways. Nothing about this news is good. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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Harneloot
Sergeant
575 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 11:03 AM |
| quote:
Fewer, higher quality books would be a tremendous improvement from the numerous poorly edited suppliments they've been producing this year.
I concur.
I played 1st edition for close to 25 years before finally making the switch to 3.5 last year. I think the only thing WoTC will see with a switch to 4th edition is a huge loss in revenue - who's going to buy it?
If they want some easy money then they should focus on re-publishing all the great FR & GH setting stuff that was put out in years past and updating it for 3.5. Easy for them and lots of willing buyers i'd bet.
Who wouldn't want a 3.5 Ruins of Undermountain??? | |
"What is to give light must endure burning" -Viktor Frankl
Champion of the Large Myconid
Deacon of the ANY aligned Raistlin. | |
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yack
Commander
3320 Posts
Gatineau Canada
| | 08/04/2006 11:08 AM |
| Harneloot is correct... alot of us are old time players or players that are new that heard about the classics Why don't they convert theses too 3.5 too make money. I would be sold right a way!
3.5 Undermountain I'm there! | |
Champion of the Peryton
Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer
DW: Duergar Priest
RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13068 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 08/04/2006 11:10 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by griffrat
I hear the wife saying something about Dr. Phil saying, "The past behavior is an indicator of future behavior."
While I believe this to be true for individuals, I'm not sure you can apply that to corporations.
On the overall subject of a 4th Ed....
Given the library of 3.0/3.5 D&D stuff I own now, it's going to be very difficult for WoTC to sell me on the idea of buying it all again for another edition. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 08/04/2006 11:21 AM |
| At this point, 4th would have to be a Major revolution for me to get excited about it. 3.5 just runs combat too well, too easily, characters are too much fun to create. If they release a 4th soon, I'd probably pick up a PHB, and then some FR stuff when it eventually gets around, but I'm not buying the new "Super-duper prestige class" books unless I can't live without the new edition (or I come into a bunch of money).
At least this implies that minis are doing well. | |
**Note: Unless otherwise stated all my minis are unbagged**
My reference thread is at: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12765
Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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griffrat
Commander
3507 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 11:24 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
....As a side note: if the miniatures line is the only thing making a profit, why don't they continue to develop that and scale back their hyper-aggressive publishing schedule? Fewer, higher quality books would be a tremendous improvement from the numerous poorly edited suppliments they've been producing this year.
LM
WHAT!?! You mean the world is round? This is a concept.....[)]
Really a good quality product weel edited and complimenting other products is a great idea. I mean I spen an entire day making the minor differences in Frostburn and Sandstorm match up for my homebrew....but then I am wierd like that....[:D] | |
Ambassador of FUN!!! | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13068 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 08/04/2006 11:27 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by yack
Harneloot is correct... alot of us are old time players or players that are new that heard about the classics Why don't they convert theses too 3.5 too make money. I would be sold right a way!
3.5 Undermountain I'm there!
As would I.
Converting 1st ED modules to 3rd ED rules would be an instant buy for me.
My guess would be that the profit margin is too low for these types of things to make it worthwhile for them to do it. Just my own clueless speculation. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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griffrat
Commander
3507 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 11:43 AM |
| | You think that there would have been some good data gathered from the download of the updated versions of the "classic" modules. To support the revisons.... | |
Ambassador of FUN!!! | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13068 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 08/04/2006 11:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by griffrat
You think that there would have been some good data gathered from the download of the updated versions of the "classic" modules. To support the revisons....
That's a good point. Hmm, maybe I'll ask a question related to converting 1st ED modules at Gencon. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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lyus_sleyden
Warrior
253 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 12:00 PM |
| There is still a bad taste in the mouths of my gamers from 3 going to 3.5 A fourth edition would just push them over the edge. I would however buy a fourth edition PHB just to see what the new system was like...BUT I really feel that a Fourth Edition is NOT A GOOD THING.
Tim | |
Minister of Social Issues of KD
The Champion of the Gray Slaad | |
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ehren37
Sergeant
642 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 12:08 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by yack
Harneloot is correct... alot of us are old time players or players that are new that heard about the classics Why don't they convert theses too 3.5 too make money. I would be sold right a way!
3.5 Undermountain I'm there!
Because those adventures honestly werent that good. I ran my fighter/cleric/mage through Queen of the demonweb pits, ran into Lolth's spider mech (gasp... a ROBOT in D&D), and killed her. It was pretty mediocre at best, having clawed our way through 10x10 rooms with exciting descriptions of "6 drow, hand crossbows, sword, chain, 49sp each". Over and over and over.
Same thing with the lead in series (against the giants). Too many boring, repetitive fights.
On the other hand, if they went in and reimagined the adventures, or wrote true sequels, it might be worthwhile. Return to White Plume Mountain *easily* beats the original in terms of interesting encounters and situations.
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Completed trades: Zarnof, Salmander, Pigsnot, qillan_dvra, SilgentG, Ironfist Boulderbender, robdaman.
Reference thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8859
CHAMPION OF THE DOG! | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 08/04/2006 12:14 PM |
| | I'd caution people to hold off on any assumptions/interpretations based on these rumors... but, as usual - the avalanche has already begun... it is too late for this pebble to vote. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the  indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 12:20 PM |
| Sigh, a new 4.0 system,to paraphrase a quote " It may taste like punkin' pie I'll never know".
I like 3.5 and have almost every source book, more than enough to carry on for years if not decades i still have a lot of 1st edition and 2nd edition stuff as well that I occationally upgrade for use. I doubt I will change over it just means I won't be buying more source books *shrugg* saves me money but I will miss the adventures. | | | |
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gss_000
Commander
3204 Posts
Baltimore, MD
| | 08/04/2006 12:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by griffrat
As to the gloom and doom of Monte Cook no longer writing games..
I was kind of surprised by this news as Ptolus is just about to be released. Now that I've gone to his site and seen his reasons, it makes sense, but still surprising.
As to 4th Ed, et al: I'll be really shocked if they sell off RPGs. I'm sure they are making a lot less money for them than for other products as RPG books tend to decline in sales right after the first month. But as everyone says, their whole lines work together to boost sales. I buy minis because of the RPGs, not the skirmish games.
I think I'm going to cautiously wait and see. It's way to early to make any kind of decision yet. As for the need for a 4th ed, I can see it and not. The basic line has already published s much core material that they are now doing a series of alternate rules that can't sell as well as the core trilogy (PHB, DMG, and MM) or even the Complete series. However, I can't see the need from a rules perspective. 3rd Ed really improved on 2nd ed and even 3.5 made 3.0 better. But what can they do to improve on 4th? I just don't see it. Now maybe when it comes out we'll see, but not right now.
But we have at least a year or two before anything comes out. | |
Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 12:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lyus_sleyden
There is still a bad taste in the mouths of my gamers from 3 going to 3.5
Hell, I quit D20 as a system as the great moneygrab change-over to v3.5, and haven't looked back since.
Truth be told, there are a lot of very good systems out there (Savage Worlds comes to mind immediately), and if this change means that some of them get more play, then all the better for the industry as a whole.
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To the list with you!
Email: robby.anderson@yahoo.com | H/W List | My Trade Interface | Reference Thread/Completed Trades
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13068 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 08/04/2006 12:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
I'd caution people to hold off on any assumptions/interpretations based on these rumors... but, as usual - the avalanche has already begun... it is too late for this pebble to vote.
Noted!
Sorry, had to do it. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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Thailfi
Sergeant
956 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 1:02 PM |
| I still play 1e/2e so the impending doom of 4e hardly means anything to me. I guess it will be a benefit in a way. DDM will probably go back to tie-ins with the classics sure to be in MM I 4.0 over the God awful creations of the 3e MM XXVII. I do think they are running out of things to print for 3e. Even if I used 3e I wouldn't buy some of their recent efforts if they were deep fried in chocolate sauce and sprinkled with diamonds and crack.
I do find part of these rumors to be delicious. So they will stop concentrating on hard bound tomes and instead focus on smaller content. "Complete Handbooks" if you will, or gazettes, multi volumed compediums, "Guides to", and other such content. I vaguely remember a very poorly managed company using that model in the 80s and 90s to produce D&D material. | |
Thailfi's Have/Want List
Thailfi's References | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 08/04/2006 1:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
...Noted!
Sorry, had to do it.
Key point: I want people to note what I'm saying and rememeber it for the future... [)] | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13068 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 08/04/2006 1:14 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
...Noted!
Sorry, had to do it.
Key point: I want people to note what I'm saying and rememeber it for the future... [)]
you can be sure I will rememeber it. Whatever that means. [)] [)] | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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griffrat
Commander
3507 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 1:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ehren37
Because those adventures honestly werent that good. I ran my fighter/cleric/mage through Queen of the demonweb pits, ran into Lolth's spider mech (gasp... a ROBOT in D&D), and killed her. It was pretty mediocre at best, having clawed our way through 10x10 rooms with exciting descriptions of "6 drow, hand crossbows, sword, chain, 49sp each". Over and over and over.
Same thing with the lead in series (against the giants). Too many boring, repetitive fights.
On the other hand, if they went in and reimagined the adventures, or wrote true sequels, it might be worthwhile. Return to White Plume Mountain *easily* beats the original in terms of interesting encounters and situations.
Granted, a "revision" something along the lines of Return to the ToEE. Picking up where the old modules left off gives me the warm fuzzy feeling like an old t-shirt...[:D] | |
Ambassador of FUN!!! | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 08/04/2006 1:19 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
quote:
Originally posted by Ghendar
...Noted!
Sorry, had to do it.
Key point: I want people to note what I'm saying and rememeber it for the future... [)]
you can be sure I will rememeber it. Whatever that means. [)] [)]
Do we really need smiley escalation? [)] [)] [)]
My typing skills leave much to be admired...
Back to 4E:
Personally, I want to know something about 4E before I judge it. D&D has a lot of areas that could be improved. If they make significant improvements in most of those areas, I'd be glad to move to a new edition. If the changes they make don't improve the game... well...
As for the 'news' that they've 'begun' work on 4E: I think the work on 4E began before 3.5 was released. There are lots of things that they probably wished they could change when they made 3.5, but they didn't change because the change would have been too great for the minor 3.5 revision. Those changes will likely get folded into 4.0. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
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Count Dooku
Commander
4637 Posts
New York
| | 08/04/2006 1:28 PM |
| quote:
Personally, I want to know something about 4E before I judge it. D&D has a lot of areas that could be improved. If they make significant improvements in most of those areas, I'd be glad to move to a new edition. If the changes they make don't improve the game... well...
I see what you are trying to say. But I was just saying that...Persoanlly for me...WotC is losing me no matter what 4th edition turns out to be like.
I just cant justify switching when I own so much 3rd edition material to last me until the end of days. | |
Champion of the Skulk
Vindicated Champion of the Twig Blight | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3547 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 08/04/2006 1:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Lab Monkey
As a side note: if the miniatures line is the only thing making a profit, why don't they continue to develop that and scale back their hyper-aggressive publishing schedule?
Sounds like a good idea, to me.
I can't believe Hasbro is thinking about dumping the RPGs. Are they going to sell D&D but expect to continue to support the game through miniatures? That just doesn't make any sense to me. They should realize that D&D is a brand, and DDM and the RPG have to be treated as a single product line. This isn't Magic the Gathering (and I hope the powers-that-be aren't confusing the two types of products). The publishing side may be losing money (and they should try to fix that), but if DDM is making enough to offset that, then the brand is making money. Dump D&D RPG and D&D Miniatures will almost certainly decline in profitability for WotC/Hasbro. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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kyrin
Commander
3171 Posts
| | 08/04/2006 1:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ehren37
quote:
Originally posted by yack
Harneloot is correct... alot of us are old time players or players that are new that heard about the classics Why don't they convert theses too 3.5 too make money. I would be sold right a way!
3.5 Undermountain I'm there!
Because those adventures honestly werent that good.
An adventure is only as good as the DM that runs it, and the players that play in it. If the old adventures are treated for what they are -- raw material to stimulate the DM's imagination and challenge the players -- then they are excellent. If a DM just runs them exactly as they were written, well, lazy DMs rarely produce anything of quality.
Hint: Even the uber-l33t "modern" adventures follow this rule as well.
I say update the old adventures to 3.5. For my part, it'll save me the bother of converting stats. Naturally they will sell by the 20% Rule (only 1 in 5 will buy it, i.e. the DM) but they will likely sell well under those parameters. So update and upgrade... and then I'll buy it and do whatever I darn well please with it.
JIM
aka kyrin | |
My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13068 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 08/04/2006 1:41 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Count Dooku
quote:
Personally, I want to know something about 4E before I judge it. D&D has a lot of areas that could be improved. If they make significant improvements in most of those areas, I'd be glad to move to a new edition. If the changes they make don't improve the game... well...
I see what you are trying to say. But I was just saying that...Persoanlly for me...WotC is losing me no matter what 4th edition turns out to be like.
I just cant justify switching when I own so much 3rd edition material to last me until the end of days.
That's my position as well as I sit here and look upon all the books I've bought. I'm just not willing to make that level of committment anymore. I really don't care how potentially good 4th ED might be. 3.5 is a fine system for me to play for a long, long time. Perfect? Hell no, but what system is?
And I GUARANTEE 4th ED, if it ever does happen, will not be perfect either.
I'm not one of those types who will rant and rave and campaign against 4th ED and try to convince everyone that I'm right and flame WoTC because they are doing it, but what I will say is that it holds no interest for me. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 08/04/2006 2:09 PM |
| I understand the concept of being fully stocked with an edition. I had enough Basic/Expert/etc... material that I could have run fun games until the day I died. I had enough 1E material that I could have run fun games until the day I died. I had enough 2E material that I could have run fun games until the day I died. I had enough 3E material that I could have run fun games until the day I died. I have enough 3.5E material that I could run fun games until the day I died. However, when each new version came out, I thought it was worth investing in the game again because the improvments.
I'm leaving open the chance that 4E could be so much better than 3.5 that it makes sense to switch yet again. I can still see huge problem areas in the game that could be reworked to significantly improve things.
However, I can also see a big chance that they'll fail to fix the things I want to see fixed. Recently, in D&D and DDM, I've seen some pretty big failures with regards to the understanding of the math and statistics that power the game. In a sense, I've seen a return to the 1E approach of tossing out numbers that feel right. If 4E follows this trend, and fails to provide statistically improved models for combat, spellcasting, character generation/advancement, etc..., it could be a disaster. The people that design 4E must have very strong statistics and probability modeling backgroudns if they want to design a game that improves upon the current model. If they fail to address this area, all the conceptual impreovments in the world won't save the product line...
But, I want to see something about 4E before I let these fears overrun me. | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13068 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 08/04/2006 2:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jgsugden
I'm leaving open the chance that 4E could be so much better than 3.5 that it makes sense to switch yet again.
And this is the basic difference between you and I. You are willing to invest heavily if it's worth it. I'm not regardless of how good it is. My priorities are changing. I don't want to spend hundreds (possibly thousands) of $$$ on RPG material anymore, especially when I have all those pretty 3rd ED books staring me in the face. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220
G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM
I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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