Anaxagoras Warrior
 318 Posts




 | | 11/01/2006 3:43 PM |
| The above being said, I do vote "Yes" to the petition
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Chairman7w Sergeant
 484 Posts




 | | 11/01/2006 4:10 PM |
| Posted By Harneloot on 11/01/2006 12:50 PM I too agree that the "manufacturing process" is not to blame for this size creep. There is something more intentional going on here and it would be nice to hear WoTC fess up to it. I don't know Harneloot, not everything needs to be a conspiracy, or requires "blame".
Maybe they just want them bigger? | | Dr. Simon: A phrase that's encoded in her brain, that makes her fall asleep. If I speak the words, "Eta... Jayne: Well don't say it! Zoë: It only works on her, Jayne. | |
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Harneloot Sergeant
 575 Posts




 | | 11/01/2006 4:24 PM |
| | Fine - they want them bigger. BUt that is NOT a manufacturing error, that is intentional and should be so said. | | "What is to give light must endure burning" -Viktor Frankl
Champion of the Large Myconid
Deacon of the ANY aligned Raistlin. | |
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 Faragdar the Wise Commander
 3547 Posts



 Albuquerque, NM, USA
 | | 11/01/2006 4:29 PM |
| Okay, I agree that the Centaur Warhulk is way too big. The owlbear and forgpriest are too big, too, just not as egregiously. I could chalk those up to a high protein diet.  | | "Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs Winner, WBC X | |
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gss_000 Commander
 3204 Posts



 Baltimore, MD
 | | 11/01/2006 4:54 PM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 10/31/2006 9:32 AM
Why does proper scaling have to negatively impact quality. Shouldn't proper scaling be included in quality? One leads to another imo. Because I have heard them say with SWM at GenCon during the Delegate meeting that they have adjusted the scaling because of the sculpting needs. I would love scaling to be perfect. The frst time I saw it wasn't it really annoyed me. But hearing since then that sometimes scale has to be adjusted, I'd rather have a nice paint job and/or sculpt.Â
And one may lead to another, one can also ruin another if taken too far.
| | Completed trades: blackthorne, Drakkengi,Thorgrin, Ironfist Boulderbender x2, ckissee, nasamonkey, Username, Star, Ace13 x3, emontedodger x2, Drconveyor, church, Joeyb, Sir Bozak The Damned, Xeromod, the other guy x2, Qucalion of Celene, Dagaron x2, berus316, qillan_dvra, AshloreDarkShadow
For further info go to My Reference Thread and Trade Interface
Champion of Radiant Sevant | |
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Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 7737 Posts




 | | 11/01/2006 4:55 PM |
| Posted By Harneloot on 11/01/2006 4:24 PM Fine - they want them bigger. BUt that is NOT a manufacturing error, that is intentional and should be so said. In all fairness, who cares if they want them bigger? They are working from a specific scale set out by written works, it would be essentially unprofessional for them to take that kind of an attitude. (not that they are, just in the imaginary case that would be)
Those variations are just too extreme imo. | | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6844 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 11/01/2006 5:02 PM |
| Nice picture, Kithmaker. Thanks for setting that up and taking the picture.
I don't really want a centaur war hulk anymore. That one disappoints me quite a bit. That's a Giant Centaur. Useless for RPG.
The newer, larger sized ones just look plain stupidly out of proportion. | | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Ridureyu Underboss
 1622 Posts




 | | 11/01/2006 5:07 PM |
| | Isn't that Centaur about th esmae size of the one from Deathknell? | | Owner of The Original Rust Monsters! DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60 Dreamblade: All | |
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yack Commander
 3321 Posts



 Gatineau Canada
 | | 11/01/2006 5:09 PM |
| Ok I take everything back thanks Kithmaker for the pic. The Centaur and the Owlbear are so big that you can't even use them with the older versions at the same time. Centau will now hit my trade list if I pull one. Giants I can live with (even though the fire is massive) but the centaur thats just bad ... its not a giant! Put me down for YES! thanks for sharing and showing me the truth.  I didn't like the bigger bases to begin with and now.... | | Champion of the Peryton Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer DW: Duergar Priest RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM | |
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smetzger Warrior
 327 Posts




 | | 11/01/2006 5:11 PM |
| Yes, yes most definantly. It peeves me to no end to have an elf the size of a halfling.
| | smetzger aka Scott Metzger | |
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Kithmaker Commander
 3926 Posts




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Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6844 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 11/01/2006 5:29 PM |
| The centaur hero is slightly larger than the earlier one. The horse portion is pretty close. The human portion is larger.
The centaur war hulk is a giant -- both the horse and the human parts | | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Ridureyu Underboss
 1622 Posts




 | | 11/01/2006 5:38 PM |
| | He's a Clydesdale. | | Owner of The Original Rust Monsters! DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60 Dreamblade: All | |
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Kithmaker Commander
 3926 Posts




 | | 11/01/2006 5:40 PM |
| Posted By Ridureyu on 11/01/2006 5:38 PM He's a Clydesdale. ...on magical steroids.
No Clydesdale is THAT much bigger than "normal" horse breeds.
| | My H/W list is not current... Trade Reference List OLD Trade references (191) | |
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Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6844 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 11/01/2006 5:59 PM |
| | He's just had the spell "enlarge" cast on him. But he forgot to upgrade his base size to huge. | | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge MerricB Underboss
 2353 Posts



 Australia
 | | 11/01/2006 6:42 PM |
| Posted By Harneloot on 11/01/2006 4:24 PM Fine - they want them bigger. BUt that is NOT a manufacturing error, that is intentional and should be so said.
So, you are accusing Stephen Schubert of lying to us? | | Merric Blackman
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Star Sergeant
 978 Posts



 New Britain, CT
 | | 11/01/2006 6:54 PM |
| The first thing I notice when I see the picture of the three centaurs next to each other is the improvement in painting and sculpt detail since Harbinger. I obviously notice the scaling problems as well - because I'm not blind - but it's not the first thing I see. I guess my point is that maybe we're concentrating too much on what they're doing wrong and not enough on what they're doing right.
| | Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge MerricB Underboss
 2353 Posts



 Australia
 | | 11/01/2006 6:57 PM |
| | Just throwing this out there: I wonder if the EU import changes affected how much the plastic shrinks/expands?
Cheers! | | Merric Blackman
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Anaxagoras Warrior
 318 Posts




 | | 11/01/2006 7:06 PM |
| By and large the sculpts are still great-the one concern is that the larger base size is encouraging sculptors to "fill the base" at time when it is unneccesary. The new base is great for awkward things, especially the bigger four-legged creatures with tails, but scaling bipeds up so that their legs stance spans the base width is troubling. The centaur I can live with, he's a warhulk and would be amongst the biggest and beefiest of his race.
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Gallandv Sneak
 73 Posts


 Lafayette, La.
 | | 11/01/2006 7:12 PM |
| I started writing a response to this thread where I applauded the new sculpts as far better then the previous undersized ones. I still feel that way but after reading through my post it sounded way to defensive of WoTC and not objective enough.  Having started collecting since the beginning I must say it would be nice if the new Owlbear was playable with my older version but I must say I do prefer the new look, by far, to the old. It would be nice If I could get a couple and it gives me 4 to play with. I guess I still can but I will have to rationalize it. The smaller being a near adult male or a small female with lesser stats. I have always thought, with the exception of the player races, that WoTC didn’t make enough female versions for the game but that’s a different point. In the case of the Owlbear their need be no sign of mammary to distinguish one as the male or the female. So in this case the size difference can be explained to the players.  Note: please forgive me referring to its uses in RPG because that’s all I use it for.  Now the above male/female logic does not apply to the giants and centaurs that are obviously male. Although the comment on the size of the torso on the centaur is correct it is my opinion that the horse bodies have been way undersized. The earlier versions looks like a human (correctly sized) torso was put on a Great Dane with hooves. Now the balance is right on the horse but not the torso. I do like the newer sculpts better, except for the Forgepriests hair, and I am happy to get them. It would be better if the Forgepriest were closer to size with the other 4 Fire Giants I already own. What would make it easier to swallow would be an Uncommon Fire and Frost giant in a near future set. This should be followed by Uncommons of the other giant races. I think the size differences of the older Hill Giant and the newer HGB are accepted because of the uncommon status given to the newer one allowing everyone to pick up the number they need for RPG. Plus the old Hill Giant sculpt sucked.  Anyway I do applaud the sculpts that have been able to be made in the larger size but I see the issues that others are having with it. {on a more selfish note I hope this allows me to pick up these rares at a reduced rate making it easier for me to get the numbers I want J } | | | |
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 Bert the Troll Commander
 3964 Posts



 Adelaide
 | | 11/01/2006 7:30 PM |
| Posted By Star on 11/01/2006 6:54 PM The first thing I notice when I see the picture of the three centaurs next to each other is the improvement in painting and sculpt detail since Harbinger. I obviously notice the scaling problems as well - because I'm not blind - but it's not the first thing I see. I guess my point is that maybe we're concentrating too much on what they're doing wrong and not enough on what they're doing right.
I agree with you that the quailty of the painting and scuplting has improved a heck of a lot since those early minis. | | "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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zoroaster100 Sergeant
 873 Posts




 | | 11/01/2006 7:33 PM |
| | I felt the need to come back to this thread to clarify that although I signed the petition, and the big scale differences do annoy me greatly with this set, I am still looking forward to this set due to the inclusion of so many interesting monsters in it. However, I'll withhold final judgment on the set's quality as a whole until I have the minis in hand. Still, I really wish WOTC would try to fix the scale problem. They seem to have listened to the complaints about paintjobs after War Drums, and to have done a pretty good job addressing that issue. So now I'm hoping they can address this issue too, while not slipping on any other aspect of quality in the process. | | | |
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Arandae Sergeant
 713 Posts



 UK
 | | 11/02/2006 6:50 AM |
| I agree that we shouldn't lose sight of how big an improvement Blood War is over the last few sets, and how much sculpts and paint jobs have improved.
However, I do think that for many of us, 'scale' has become the new 'paint job'. I think Zoroaster has it right. The complaints about paint jobs may have performed a useful function. 
For me, the issue of paint jobs was largely irrelevant, and scale is much more important. When I put minis down into a battle scene, how perfect the paint job is doesn't affect my use of the mini. If a large mini is really a huge mini on a large base and even overhangs the base might, that mean that I can't even fit the thing into the battle! That affects my game.
Paint jobs upset some people, and scale affects some people too - so complaining about it will bring it to the attention of WotC. 
I'm also grateful to Kithmaker for the image. As a result, I won't be buying the Centaur, the Owlbear or the Forgepriest. These things are too expensive to buy if I'm not going to be able to use them in my game, and as a singles buyer I can pick and choose. | | Champion of the Bodak.Knight of the Aboleth.Squire of Gnomes. Friend of (Non-Ugly) Fey. Anti-Champion of the Fozzie Bugbear Strangler (Demonweb 32/60). Called Shots- Blood War: Green Slaad (53/60), Night Below: Kuo-Toa Whip (55/60), Demonweb: Aboleth, Feywild: Fire Beetle, Next Icon: Gargantuan Jotunheim Frost Giant | |
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Count Dooku Commander
 4637 Posts



 New York
 | | 11/02/2006 6:54 AM |
| For me, the issue of paint jobs was largely irrelevant, and scale is much more important. I agree. | | Champion of the Skulk Vindicated Champion of the Twig Blight | |
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The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 13113 Posts



 Mud Lick, Kentucky
 | | 11/02/2006 7:17 AM |
| Posted By Arandae on 11/02/2006 6:50 AM For me, the issue of paint jobs was largely irrelevant, and scale is much more important. When I put minis down into a battle scene, how perfect the paint job is doesn't affect my use of the mini.
I totally agree. These things are mass produced. How great is the paint EVER going to get? WotC is not promoting DDM as great works of art. Scaling is more important to me. | | WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :( I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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yack Commander
 3321 Posts



 Gatineau Canada
 | | 11/02/2006 7:18 AM |
| | I need to say that I do love this set its still my favorite. But as stated above the scale is more important to me then the paint. But thats because I love painting minis and I don't have the magic touch to change the scale. | | Champion of the Peryton Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer DW: Duergar Priest RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM | |
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Skyscraper Sergeant
 659 Posts



 Montreal
 | | 11/02/2006 7:33 AM |
| Posted By Ridureyu on 11/01/2006 10:42 AM I think the DDM community needs to stop obsessing about small things. Obsess, obsess, obsess. It's annoying. All we do is obsess. We obsess about everything. If we get the figures we want, we find something else to obsess over. Obsessing is bad. We need to stop obsessing. I can't stop telling you how much we need to stop obsessing. All we do is obsess, obsess, obsess. We shouldn't be obsessive over minor things. We need to stop obsessing. I can't say enough about how we need to stop obsessing over everything. Stop obsessing, everyone. All you do is obsess. Why do you obsess? I can't figure it out. I'm tired of seeing people obsess. All they do is obsess, and it had better stop. Obsess, obsess, obsess. Stop obsessing! obsessing is bad, so please stop doing it. Why do people obsess so much? It makes no sense. Stop obsessing! You're all obsessing. I'm not obsessing. Who said I'm obsessing? the DDm community needs to stop obsessing. it's getting pretty annoying to see everyone obsess. Obsess, obsess, obsess. Stop obsessing! Obsess, obsess, obsess, that's all you do. All you do is obsess over little things. Tiny things, not worth obsessing over. Miniscule things. Obsess, obsess, obsess, obsess, obsess, obsess! Haha. Very good, even if i'm a target of that comment 
Sky
| | The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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bw Warrior
 249 Posts



 Baton Rouge, LA
 | | 11/02/2006 7:40 AM |
| No, I think Painting is more important, I personally like a 28mm mini. Reaper Mini's seem to be the best size for me.  You can see more of the detail.Â
But I also don't want Dreamblade size mini's for DND. | | DDM Singles/Cases FS at: www.battleworks.net
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calvar Warrior
 226 Posts




 | | 11/02/2006 9:04 AM |
| | I think that scale is more important because its possible for me to fix paint job, but scale... theres nothing to do in that field. This doesnt mean that i dont expect the paint job to be good, its just that as I see it scale is more important. | | | |
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bielmic Sneak
 68 Posts




 | | 11/02/2006 9:35 AM |
| since i don't have the minis yet... what's wrong with the valenar horserider? is he too small? i thought the original (aberrations?) valenar was kinda small but he was just close to true 25mm. can anyone post a pic of the two side by side? also, how is the warmage the wrong scale?
as for the pics, i'm not sure which side of the fence i'm one. i've been collecting since day 1 of harbinger and am not happy about the scale changes. unfortunately, which scale is correct? was the original owlbear too small or the new one too big? same thing with the hill giants. since the two new ones are to scale with each other, does that make the first one the underscaled runt of the group? is the warhulk too big because the first two were to scale with each other? | | | |
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Ridureyu Underboss
 1622 Posts




 | | 11/02/2006 9:46 AM |
| | The "obsess" post wasn't directed at anybody. I was trying to make a joke to lighten the place up. Note the "washing my hands" and 'clipping my nails" bit. | | Owner of The Original Rust Monsters! DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60 Dreamblade: All | |
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The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 13113 Posts



 Mud Lick, Kentucky
 | | 11/02/2006 9:49 AM |
| Posted By Ridureyu on 11/02/2006 9:46 AM The "obsess" post wasn't directed at anybody. I was trying to make a joke to lighten the place up. Note the "washing my hands" and 'clipping my nails" bit. Us? Obsessive? Surely you jest!! It's not like we would spend 10 pages discussing the pronounciation of Chrall or anything.
Wait a minute...................
| | WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :( I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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nyjastul69 Commander
 2731 Posts



 Rhode Island
 | | 11/02/2006 9:54 AM |
| Posted By Ridureyu on 11/02/2006 9:46 AM The "obsess" post wasn't directed at anybody. I was trying to make a joke to lighten the place up. Note the "washing my hands" and 'clipping my nails" bit.
Now I feel like shouting from the top of a building. Â
I don't mind the scaling issues. In some ways size creep can bring out the details in the sculpts better. | |
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Ridureyu Underboss
 1622 Posts




 | | 11/02/2006 9:55 AM |
| | You mean you've never tried it? It's a lot of fun! | | Owner of The Original Rust Monsters! DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60 Dreamblade: All | |
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The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 13113 Posts



 Mud Lick, Kentucky
 | | 11/02/2006 10:46 AM |
| | Go to your window, open it and yell, "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not gonna to take it anymore!" | | WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :( I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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Duke of Spoils greyhaze Warlord
 7737 Posts




 | | 11/02/2006 10:56 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 11/02/2006 9:49 AM Us? Obsessive? Surely you jest!! It's not like we would spend 10 pages discussing the pronounciation of Chrall or anything.
And apparently it wasn't enough, since it's spelled c-h-r-a-a-l.Â
| | Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60, Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger. Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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FriendlyAlienist Sneak
 101 Posts



 Finland
 | | 11/02/2006 11:28 AM |
| Yes, please keep the scaling correct. It's just a detail, but important one and easy to do accurately.
| | Champion of Gibbering Abomination, Knight of All Things Aberrant | |
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Skyscraper Sergeant
 659 Posts



 Montreal
 | | 11/02/2006 11:44 AM |
| Posted By Ridureyu on 11/02/2006 9:46 AM The "obsess" post wasn't directed at anybody. I was trying to make a joke to lighten the place up. Note the "washing my hands" and 'clipping my nails" bit. I'm not paranoid, even if everyone *is* out to get me.
I should have said "even if this comment fits me somewhat" instead of "even though i'm a target for this message". But i found it funny, 'causehere i am obsessing to a certain extent over what i perceive like others' obsession.
For the record, i was not under the impression that you were actually trying to point the finger towards anyone. Except perhaps towards him, there, in the corner... 
Sky
| | The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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Skyscraper Sergeant
 659 Posts



 Montreal
 | | 11/02/2006 11:45 AM |
| Posted By FriendlyAlienist on 11/02/2006 11:28 AM Yes, please keep the scaling correct. It's just a detail, but important one and easy to do accurately.
Did you mean scalling or spelling?
| | The wise man doubts often. The ignorant, sometimes. The fool, never. | |
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The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 13113 Posts



 Mud Lick, Kentucky
 | | 11/02/2006 11:49 AM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 11/02/2006 10:56 AM Posted By Ghendar on 11/02/2006 9:49 AM Us? Obsessive? Surely you jest!! It's not like we would spend 10 pages discussing the pronounciation of Chraal or anything.
And apparently it wasn't enough, since it's spelled c-h-r-a-a-l. 
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| WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :( I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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