jooquase
Warrior
272 Posts
    
 | | 11/20/2006 7:13 AM |
| Hi guys,
I was thinking the other day on the fact that we are well dew for a shapechaning miniature. Like a druid that can shapechange into animals (or magical beasts). This is how I see it :
the druid would have the ability :
Shapechange (swift): Until the start of this creature's next turn, replace this creature with an Animal or Magical beast with points no greater than it's self. Durring that time, this creature gains the chosen beast's AC, speed, attacks, and special abilities. This creature cannot cast spells while in animal form.
I know that shapechanging normaly takes a full round to change and an other to change back and that it can last as long as you like, but it would be way to complicated in squirmish. I think that this methode could potentialy be usable.
What do you think, and do you have any other ideas on how it could work. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 11/20/2006 7:58 AM |
| Switching out figures mid-game is something I'd like to avoid if possible. I've occasionally thought about this, and I think one good solution would be to allow the switch during setup, and have it last the entire game. Something like:
Shapechange: After warbands are revealed, this creature can be replaced with an Animal of equal or lesser point value. This substitution lasts the entire skirmish.
That way, if you needed a spellcaster, stay in druid form. If you need more beef, morph into a bear/lion/whatever. It would avoid all sorts of complications that arise from switching or changing a creature after it has already been damaged or subjected to effects. | | | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 11/20/2006 8:11 AM |
| | You could also have a Druid with Natural Spell. The miniture looks like wolf or whatever animal for the RPG crowd, but the skirmish stats are those of a spellcaster with a reasonable melee performance. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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pauler81
Sneak
61 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 11/20/2006 9:06 AM |
| Posted By Orion72 on 11/20/2006 7:58 AM
Switching out figures mid-game is something I'd like to avoid if possible. I've occasionally thought about this, and I think one good solution would be to allow the switch during setup, and have it last the entire game. Something like:
Shapechange: After warbands are revealed, this creature can be replaced with an Animal of equal or lesser point value. This substitution lasts the entire skirmish.
That way, if you needed a spellcaster, stay in druid form. If you need more beef, morph into a bear/lion/whatever. It would avoid all sorts of complications that arise from switching or changing a creature after it has already been damaged or subjected to effects.
Forgive me for my misunderstanding, but what is so bad about switching out figures mid-game? Summoners add figures in mid-game, is it so hard to switch figures mid-game? I personaly don't see a problem w/ that. If you could clearify the problem w/ switching figures mid-game I would greatly appriciate it. Thank you! | | | |
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Nobody Important
Sergeant
718 Posts
| | 11/20/2006 9:39 AM |
| I've thought a possible use for shapechange could be something to disguise a piece as it enters the battle. It may be a little complicated but here it is.
Shapechanged: After revealing your warband you may substitue this figure (the base) with a copy of another figure in your warband that has a lower cost and HP total(clone). You do NOT need to state which is the clone but must have previously recorded which mini is the clone. A clone may make only moves and attacks and has none of the abilites stated unless they are also on the base mini; at any time you may replace the clone with its base mini which enters play with all the damage the clone currently has and loss of abilities used by the clone.
Overly complex I know. The basic idea is similar to Alterself except it put the mini visibly into play and disrupts your opponent by presenting two possible targets that could be the shapechanged mini.
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 11/20/2006 11:48 AM |
| Posted By pauler81 on 11/20/2006 9:06 AM
Forgive me for my misunderstanding, but what is so bad about switching out figures mid-game? Summoners add figures in mid-game, is it so hard to switch figures mid-game? I personaly don't see a problem w/ that. If you could clearify the problem w/ switching figures mid-game I would greatly appriciate it. Thank you!
I'm thinking about how you handle damage - what if the druid took damage, then wild shapes into a cougar with fewer hp, and the damage would have been enough to cause a morale check? Or to kill it outright? What if the druid already made its morale check, then morphs into a bear with more hp? Will it have to morale check again?
What if the druid was subject to an effect that the animal has immunity to? I can't think of any such case off the top of my head, but there might be an animal that has Immune Poison, for example.
Adding a fresh new creature via summoning spells is one thing. Its something else to turn one creature into another after the original has already been in play for a while. | | | |
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pauler81
Sneak
61 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 11/20/2006 12:59 PM |
| Posted By Orion72 on 11/20/2006 11:48 AM Posted By pauler81 on 11/20/2006 9:06 AM
Forgive me for my misunderstanding, but what is so bad about switching out figures mid-game? Summoners add figures in mid-game, is it so hard to switch figures mid-game? I personaly don't see a problem w/ that. If you could clearify the problem w/ switching figures mid-game I would greatly appriciate it. Thank you!
I'm thinking about how you handle damage - what if the druid took damage, then wild shapes into a cougar with fewer hp, and the damage would have been enough to cause a morale check? Or to kill it outright? What if the druid already made its morale check, then morphs into a bear with more hp? Will it have to morale check again? What if the druid was subject to an effect that the animal has immunity to? I can't think of any such case off the top of my head, but there might be an animal that has Immune Poison, for example. Adding a fresh new creature via summoning spells is one thing. Its something else to turn one creature into another after the original has already been in play for a while.
You can try and solve this problem by keeping the Druid's original Hp, immunities, AC, level and special effects the same. The only difference is whatever creature he changes into has a different attack bonus, damage total and special move. So his attacks would be replaced by that of which he has changed into. And to limit his ability to change shape, he should only be able to do it twice or something like that. So no matter what he changes into his AC and hp will remain the same, so he will have to make moral at the same point no matter what he changes into. | | | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 11/20/2006 1:08 PM |
| | That introduces a different set of problems. Now you're tracking stats from two different cards for one critter. Many will complain that it makes no sense to change into a tougher/weaker creature but not gain/lose AC or hp. Either way, it makes things more complicated. Too complicated? Not for some, but more than I personally am comfortable with. | | | |
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Nate_666
Sergeant
801 Posts
Midwest
| | 11/20/2006 1:42 PM |
| Maybe all shapechangers could be fearless so the morale save wouldnt be
a problem, and it could remove all conditions from you to use it, and
then you just switch all your stats into the selected creature.
W00t, 500 posts!!!
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I am a nerd, originality and strangeness are good. Blind conformity and stupidity are unforgiveable. All else said, DnD FTW!!
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stephengroy
Underboss
1440 Posts
Tempe AZ Beeyotch
| | 11/20/2006 1:46 PM |
| | Did someone say 'Orc Druid Wereboar'? | |
Waiting for Chainmail Equivalencies since 2005
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Star
Sergeant
978 Posts
New Britain, CT
| | 11/20/2006 1:52 PM |
| I think that switching out mini's and especially using two stat cards for one mini would overly complicate the skirmish game.
That said, wild shape is a powerful and basic part of being a druid that they have been neglecting. I think that some sort of compromise should be made so that more druid mini's could be released (not a lot more - but more than we've seen so far.) | |
Champion of Gromph Baenre | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 11/20/2006 2:37 PM |
| | I used to play clone in magic:TG and I would like a doppleganger will appear in a future expansion.I think it would be a very funny creature because it would have a high cost in points but,if you can copy a titan for example,the mini would be very competitive for its cost. | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 11/20/2006 2:41 PM |
| Why not just make it a special ability that grants set effects:
something like
Wildshape []
Swift, at the beginning of this creature's turn it gains melee attack +3, melee damage +5, and speed +2. This effect ends when this creature makes a ranged attack or casts a spell
This is odviously pretty general, but I think still gives a druid greater melee potential, particularly when out of spells. One consideration is how this would effect being a commmander, I can't see following a guy much after he's turned into a bear after all, so maybe a wildshaped druid's commander rating should be reduced to 0 for the purpose of moral saves or something like that. | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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delguidance
Sergeant
394 Posts
| | 11/20/2006 4:05 PM |
| I like this latest idea and would like to build on it.
For versatility there could be multiple boxes for muliple shapes.
a box for changing into the wolf and you get a use of stun and some added speed.
a box for the eagle where you gain flight or something.
The problem I'm running into here is how to reflect size changes. And this goes right along with basic D&D spells like enlarge that aren't used in the minis game.
Even though the rules are so complex now even veterans can't agree or recall everything. | |
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Custom Title
WakeXX
Warlord
10152 Posts
Edinboro PA
| | 11/20/2006 4:24 PM |
| Posted By iluvxtina on 11/20/2006 2:37 PM
I used to play clone in magic:TG and I would like a doppleganger will appear in a future expansion.I think it would be a very funny creature because it would have a high cost in points but,if you can copy a titan for example,the mini would be very competitive for its cost.
This would be cool though I think they'd limit it to copy creature under X points. | | | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 11/20/2006 4:33 PM |
| | Size changes are a fairly intractable problem, which is why I ignored them, one possibility would be something like the golaith cleric's ability that makes him count as large for certain effects (can't remember what its called) I like the different ability gains for different wildshapes though, they would give the ability a lot more flavor. | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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MAURIZIO
Sergeant
960 Posts
Lima, Perú
| | 11/20/2006 5:42 PM |
| One miniature came to my mind with this Shapechange: Bear Warrior.
A nice miniature to shapechanging in to a Dire Bear if it need to base or something else! | |
Againts the Giants Called Shot: Cattie Bri.
Dungeon of Dread Called Shot: Cockatrice.
Todas las batallas en la vida sirven para enseñarnos algo, inclusive aquellas que perdemos. Paulo Coehlo
"DnD teaches you a valuable lesson, always loot the bodies of your dead enemies"
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jooquase
Warrior
272 Posts
| | 11/21/2006 5:54 AM |
| I think that some of you are missing the goal of shapeshifting : You have alot of versitality depending on the situation : If you are already basing a low AC creature, turn into an owlbear ranger and hit for 60 damage. If you need better defence, turn into a displacer beast (conceal 11). If you are playing epic and you are close to a storm archer, turn into a Purple worm. Your enemy just last his last commander, turn into a Chimera and fear cone. Need speed, turn into a Celestial Pegasus. This gives you endless possibilities ...
If you only use the beast's AC, speed, attack and gain it's special abilities (keep your own HP, level, immunities, etc ...) it would'nt be to complicated to understand, at least I think.
I agree with iluvxtina, I also used to play Magic and the doppleganger could turn into a different creature each round and it wasn't to complecated to follow for anyone. | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 11/21/2006 6:10 AM |
| | you,re talking about a creature like morphling in magic:TG,is this ok?A creature which could face any treat ,modifiying its skills/features.I was thinking about clone,more than morphling but this is a shapeshifther in magic:TG too.A good idea | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3547 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 11/21/2006 11:04 AM |
| Let me say first that I think this is a neat idea. It can have a positive influences on the game, if done right. So, by raising issues, I'm looking to suggest possible solutions, rather than shooting down the idea:
1) It's another ability that would be of limited or no use during a limited format skirmish - the ability should be introduced in a set with a heavily animal theme, so that players have a decent chance to pull a useful animal/magical beast mini at the same time they get this sphapechanging druid. That raises the question of whether such a set theme would be welcomed by the community.
2) Size differential--there might not be space on the map for a large-sized creature to replace the medium-sized druid - simply disallow shapechanging in that situation (could be a bummer for the owner of the druid, but it would be a clear-cut rule that doesn't complicate the game--you just have to plan around it)
3) Morale check issues--first off, if a creature makes morale once for reaching half hit points, it doesn't check again, no matter what situation caused it to get to half hit points again. Assuming it didn't have to check morale for half hp while in druid form, once it wild shapes to animal form, its morale check for reaching half hp happens based on its new hp total. So, what if a druid hits the half hp mark because he changed shape? First, it shouldn't happen. For one, the druid heals a bit when he uses wild shape. I would write the ability so that he heals 10 hp upon wild shaping. For another, the animal the druid changes into would almost invariably have more hp than the original druid mini. If he wasn't at half hp before the shift, he won't be after shifting. Okay, so what if he does anyway? I would say that the silly player has to immediately check morale for his druid reaching half hit points upon shifting. Again, it's a simple and clear-cut rule that you have to plan around when using wild shape.
4) Saves - in RPG, a druid retains its level and saves even while wild shaped. Two options here: a) retain that rule in skirmish. For most stats, you use the stat card for the animal mini that replaces the druid, but you keep the druid card around to track level (among other stats). b) ignore that rule in skirmish and force the player to use the animal's level/save stat. I think (a) is better, even though it slightly complicates things by forcing you to pay attention to certain stats on the animal's card and other stats on the druid's card. A bit of a pain, but not much more complicated than tracking updated stats that are altered by spells.
5) Creature type - a wild shaped druid retains its type. It does not take on the type of the new animal. That should stay the same in skirmish. It's another stat that must be referenced from the druid's stat card, but it simplifies issues of effects that work on certain creature types.
6) Spells - RPG has "judgment call" rules on whether you can cast spells in wild shape form. Skirmish should be simple. Either you can still cast spells in animal form or you can't, and the target animal form is irrelevant. If the druid has "natural spell", then he can still cast. Otherwise, he can't.
7) Special abilities - this is probably the toughest. In RPG, you get the new form's extraordinary and physical abilities, but not supernatural or spell-like abilities. The druid should get a Dire Ape's "rend", for example, but not a Unicorn's aura of protection from evil. By the same token, he should keep some of his own abilities and lose others. How do you make a rule for that in skirmish? Quite simply, I think you can't. Either the druid loses all his own abilities and gains those of the new shape, or he keeps his own and doesn't get any from the new shape. I think the former is the way to go, but it raises a complication if you want the druid to have the "natural spell" ability, or if you want the druid to continue to function as a beastmaster after shifting (assuming it's a commander). As much as it complicates things, you might have to specify, "The druid gains all the special abilities of the new form and loses his own special abilities except beastmaster and natural spell." Perhaps add other exceptions, or perhaps just say, "The druid retains his own special abilities and gains those of the new form." Then be careful about which special abilities are given to a shapechanging druid. (You get the funny situation that a druid could gain natural soul and get the bonus for being under its own command.  )
I think that covers it. I think it's doable, despite those issues. Any others I missed?
Oh, and what warty_nosed_goblin suggested is, I think, better suited to a Shifter from the Eberron campaign. Like a barbarian who is not already raging (which I hope the designers do, at some point, particularly because I'd like to see a multiclass barbarian/spellcaster), you could have a shifter who starts the battle not already shifted, though I'm not sure why that would be useful. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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jooquase
Warrior
272 Posts
| | 11/21/2006 12:30 PM |
| | Faragdar the Wise has it resumed nicely. The only thing I would change is that the HP is kept when shapeshifting, this would prevent the whole moral check issues, and keep the game play much simpler. For turnament play, I think that the player could be limited to something like 3 or 4 beasts that he can choose from (that he specifies when declaring his warband), this would limit newer players from having only a few and older players from having a whole bag full of choices. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 11/21/2006 6:48 PM |
| This brings up a related issue--the reincarnate spell.
If the Lich Necromancer can introduce new figures into your band when you kill living enemies, then maybe a powerful druid could reincarnate enemy figures (when they die) into animals of a certain cost level.
Adding extra Timber Wolves in the place of fallen enemies could be very nice.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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pauler81
Sneak
61 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 11/22/2006 5:19 AM |
| Posted By Vrecknidj on 11/21/2006 6:48 PM
This brings up a related issue--the reincarnate spell.
If the Lich Necromancer can introduce new figures into your band when you kill living enemies, then maybe a powerful druid could reincarnate enemy figures (when they die) into animals of a certain cost level.
Adding extra Timber Wolves in the place of fallen enemies could be very nice.
Dave
Ya know that isn't a bad idea at all. And let's take it a step futher. The Aracnomancer has the lovely ability to summon spiders of loth if she kills an enemy or an enemy dies of poison. So let's say that the druid can summon 2 animals of a certain point value at the beggining of the skirmish, but he get's an immediate summon ability when an enemy dies. The argument before was replacing figures, but we can all agree on adding figures to the board. I think this is a great idea! | | | |
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Luisjoey
Underboss
1704 Posts
Caracas Venezuela
| | 11/22/2006 11:43 AM |
| Idea for Changelings
The Changeling should have the green slaad ability for camouflage, and in game should have two abilities to confuse enemies.
Nice discusion about druids  | |
Knight of the Quori
Champion of King Kaius III of Karrnath
 Purple Knight of Venezuela
Venezuelan Site For D&D minis Calabozo Criollo Venezuela
Venezuelan Site for SW minis VeneMinis.com | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 11/22/2006 6:57 PM |
| Another idea to toss into the brainstorm, is for some future minis to have an ability 'shapechange target' or the like. But then many animial critters already made wouldnt be comptable which would be a change.
It would be fun though, as would recarinate. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3547 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 11/22/2006 8:57 PM |
| Vrecknidj, I like the reincarnate idea. It could even be fun as a commander effect, in the same vein as the Lich Necromancer. A disconnect with the RPG, though, is that a creature can't be reincarnated if it doesn't want to be (though I realize that disconnects with the RPG rules for reincarnate are inevitable). Anyway, that makes it odd to "reincarnate" dead enemies as animals under your control. Perhaps it could work on your own troops. Commander effect: whenever a humanoid ally destroyed, that ally is replaced with an animal (worth 5 points or less) under your control. (The humanoid caviat prevents you from replacing a reincarnated animal with a new reincarnated animal. I suppose that could be expanded to giants and monstrous humanoids, though simpler is usually better.)
Imagine a strategy where you're sticking in 3 point chumps so you can get them killed and replaced by wolves. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 11/23/2006 5:33 AM |
| | And what about wish spell?It would be very interesting and powerful.It should works like the death wish in magic:TG.You can bring a creature from out of the game into your current warband.Nice! | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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