Posted By stephengroy on 02/04/2008 3:47 PM
We've still heard nothing of the alleged 'backwards compatibility' of Chainmail, which was dropped right after Deathknell. Will this be brought up-to-date as well?

Posted By WotC_Ian on 02/01/2008 1:28 PM


How is that impacting things? D&D Experience is the only D&D only show we run. It is the showpiece show for D&D. You can argue that that show has become more important to D&D than Gen Con. I certainly get as many players at it for DDM. Therefore I'm not understanding at all how that skews things into a better or worse situation. Infact being at D&D Experience will help those championships and the show overall. I'm unlikely to put a dead duck at the premier D&D event.

Therefore I obviously need enlightening to your perceptions.

Sorry if this sounds intense as I'm now very interested in how people view between the lines and that obviously impacts how people think and react.

Ian

Posted By rondom on 02/05/2008 3:09 PM
Ian

Posted By mordeus on 02/05/2008 8:50 AM
It is really too bad that we won't see any sort of true rotation, where out of print sets rotate back into the standard format for periods of time. I'm not a fan of any of the models being given over entirely to "Vintage format" As it is the limitations of only having a few sets "in play" will increase the likelyhood that at any event we will see the same warbands competing against one another.

Posted By WotC_Ian on 02/05/2008 3:23 PM

So this has nothing to do with the Championship but the show itself. Can you tell me why you'd prefer to go to Gen Con than D&D Experience? DC offers more for you prior and after the event in ways of sites and places to visit, remember I'm not American so I like to visit places as I travel outside of the shows too. I'm just curious.

I also have to accept that no mater what we do it's not going to be to the liking of everyone.

What we've offeresd is a set of formats that ensures it satisfies as many players as we can. To say it's not our prime format because it's not at Gen Con is flawed. hat's like tell us that the Pro Tour for Magic isn't as important to us as it's not at Gen Con. D&D Experience is at it's essense the pinnicale show for D&D much like the Pro Tour is for Magic.

What a format is called is like arguing over whether a d6 or d20 resolution engine is beter. People will always have a preference and the right answer is personal. The most idea name for Standard would be Limited but you can imagine how hard that would be to retrain everyone that Limited isn't Sealed anymore plus all the references in the UTR would have to have a double explanation.

Ian


I can answer your first question - when I go to a games convention in the USA I do it to go to the convention - I could care less where it is or what else is there, because I'll be arriving the evening before it starts and leaving the morning after it finishes. And I don't go all the way to the USA for one event or set of events, so a convention that is purely D&D is MUCH less interesting than a more open event.

If you really want to send the message that 'Restricted' is not your prime format don't make it the event at GenCon. It's that simple. Look at the comments here and you will see that pretty much everyone takes the view that what you run at GenCon is your prime format - it doesn't matter what you intend, that's message you send. (Magic Pro Tour is a wholly different animal, as you know.)

And I'm not arguing over what the formats are called. I just refuse to use your misleading nomenclature. (No argument see - just me being unilateral rather than you.) If it's MTG nomenclature - well that just makes it worse from my viewpoint.

Posted By rondom on 02/05/2008 4:26 PM
Ian


I can answer your first question - when I go to a games convention in the USA I do it to go to the convention - I could care less where it is or what else is there, because I'll be arriving the evening before it starts and leaving the morning after it finishes. And I don't go all the way to the USA for one event or set of events, so a convention that is purely D&D is MUCH less interesting than a more open event.

If you really want to send the message that 'Restricted' is not your prime format don't make it the event at GenCon. It's that simple. Look at the comments here and you will see that pretty much everyone takes the view that what you run at GenCon is your prime format - it doesn't matter what you intend, that's message you send. (Magic Pro Tour is a wholly different animal, as you know.)

And I'm not arguing over what the formats are called. I just refuse to use your misleading nomenclature. (No argument see - just me being unilateral rather than you.) If it's MTG nomenclature - well that just makes it worse from my viewpoint.

Posted By Thenameless on 02/05/2008 5:55 PM
I'm going to have to agree with some of the above posts. DDM is not Magic (as Ian has already said). DDM's major championship (though it's still a relatively young game) has been held at GenCon since its inception. By putting the Standard format's championship at GenCon, Wizards sends the message that that is the BIG tournament. It doesn't matter what is intended, to almost all of us in the DDM community, GenCon is the grand-daddy of them all.

On a personal note, putting the Vintage (the format I want to focus on) Championship at XP hurts me. In terms of work vacation time, I can only dedicate one of my two extended yearly vacations to gaming - the other is reserved for family. Since I'd much rather go to GenCon, I'm left out of the competitive loop. Seriously considering retiring from the game now. Ian, it's not only me from the Vancouver DDM group that's unhappy with the latest development, I just happen to be the most vocal. Wizards had made all of us so happy when they announced that all of the older pieces would be updated. Whether you truly believe it or not (with your statement that you are simply offering another format), this takes away much of the joy that you recently brought to us.

Posted By WotC_Ian on 02/05/2008 11:22 PM

I accepted long ago that no matter what we do some will be happy and some not. It's sad but understandable. We all have different tastes and likes and that's just how things are. I like green the wife hates it she's not wrong and nor am I and we live with that. Thanks for taking the time to explain more of your likes.

Ian

Posted By WotC_Ian on 01/26/2008 10:52 AM
No I don't want anything that players, as a whole, dont want. It's irrelivant what I personally want as this is all about what the community as a whole wants. You guys can't and shouldn't be forced to play what I personally want.

Posted By mordeus on 02/05/2008 8:50 AM
It is really too bad that we won't see any sort of true rotation, where out of print sets rotate back into the standard format for periods of time. I'm not a fan of any of the models being given over entirely to "Vintage format" As it is the limitations of only having a few sets "in play" will increase the likelyhood that at any event we will see the same warbands competing against one another.

Posted By Sirohk on 02/06/2008 3:39 AM
  .... as sets are rotated into Vintage.�

Posted By XAos on 02/06/2008 3:05 AM
Thats a poor analogy,
b) Your wife says she dislikes green, how about blue instead.

So how do you know the players as a whole want this, your getting a lot of arguments here...

Posted By WotC_Ian on 02/06/2008 4:41 PM
Like Gen Con UK being in the South of the UK. It's a perfectly good decision as the majority of active players can attend yet for those in Manchester or even more northern it's not. For them it's a poor choice and many times I've heard about how bad it is and how it should move north or they will never attend. ..Ian

Posted By Thenameless on 02/06/2008 5:32 PM
I like your point about the green/blue thing XAos. I don't think it was addressed very directly. Anyway, it sounds like the boss is pretty firmly entrenched with which format is going to be the new big one, and we (as well as many others it looks like) will not be getting our way. You and I do have the final vote though - with our wallets.

Posted By XAos on 02/08/2008 7:14 AM

Sadly not true the highest numbers were in London. as the keper of those numbers for a number of years I can say that Loughborough may of got bigger if there was more space but even there I was constantly told that those North of point X or South of point Y wouldn't attend because it was too far and while we ran it there they'd never attend. X and Y changed by person but the point was nowhere was perfect for everyone.

I went to ever Loughborough and all since except Bogna.

Ian

Posted By Thenameless on 02/09/2008 2:18 AM
Let's just take 1.0 as an example. Perfect balance was never achieved for every faction, in every format, in any era.

Constructed in the Harbinger era was dominated by Displaced Agression (100 pts). The release of Dragoneye brought about dominance with the Ogre Ravager and Eye of Gruumsh. Archfiends then with the Orc Champion. GoL solidified CE's death-grip with the Drider Sorcerer, culminating in a CE-dominated first Constructed Championship. By the second championship season, banning of the Drider Sorcerer (and a change in summoning rules), meant that the Chraal would be king. We know the rest....Gith Monks, Korducopia, Quad Belchers, Black Dragons, Ultroforge, Shadow Dragons.

In extreme/epic, Storm Giant builds became nearly unstoppable with the release of Crow Shamans in Aberrations. Then, Deathknell's Beholder decided that save=10 was a crappy idea.

Limited was very unbalanced early on because drawing a commander was crucial in the original game (speed 2 out of command, difficult). This was exarcebated by the fact that there were very few good commanders. The format later improved when more commanders were made uncommon and even common.

Basically, there is no balance. There is only slow power-creep. This is not a knock against R&D, as I understand that it is a reality that must exist. Skirmishers would lose interest in new sets, if those pieces couldn't stand up to their older counterparts.

Like Gen Con UK being in the South of the UK. It's a perfectly good decision as the majority of active players can attend yet for those in Manchester or even more northern it's not. For them it's a poor choice and many times I've heard about how bad it is and how it should move north or they will never attend. The net gain and loss doesn't balance and therefore you accept that you can't ever satisfy all the people all the time and go with what you believe is best and business sound.

Posted By neilasaurus on 02/18/2008 7:29 PM

I think I said this elsewhere, but I'll say it here again.

I may have missed it, but the most important question I haven't heard the answer to, will both Vintage and Standard champions get to design a mini?

How about a major vintage tournament, but not a championship, at Gencon, for those people only going to Gencon? An open would be nice and possibly quite popular. Give away a few bucks at it? Not as much as the championship, but some?

Posted By Dordledum on 02/19/2008 5:29 AM
Call me naive, but I don't think it'll matter that much. People tend to play with last few sets only anyway. It's most often not that older figures have become unplayable, but that it's just fun to play with the newer figures. If I've played with a certain set for a year or so, I like to vary my warbands.

We'll see how it plays out, I'm confident it'll remain fun,

D.

Posted By neilasaurus on 02/19/2008 2:17 PM

But for a while, the 2.0 versions of the vintage minis will be just as new as the most recent sets. And sometimes a fig that people had long neglected becomes viable when combined with a newer fig, like the Young Master with Gith Monks.

Posted By Dordledum on 02/19/2008 5:29 AM
Call me naive, but I don't think it'll matter that much. People tend to play with last few sets only anyway. It's most often not that older figures have become unplayable, but that it's just fun to play with the newer figures. If I've played with a certain set for a year or so, I like to vary my warbands.

We'll see how it plays out, I'm confident it'll remain fun,

D.

Posted By Teflon Jeff on 02/20/2008 12:34 PM

So, there you go, a few of my thoughts. As for GenCon Vs. DDXP, genCon probably has a better chance of drawing new players, just like standard does. Whereas DDXP is for more hardcore players, just like vintage is.