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Subject: Some statistics and thoughts about 2.0

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01/24/2008 12:25 PM  

There are 30 borderlands creatures, 26 civilized creatures, 23 underdark creatures, and 33 Wild creatures. Of the 14 creatures that cost 40 points and over, 8 are borderlands, 4 are civilized, 4 are underdark, and 5 are Wild. Of the 12 creatures that cost 15 points and under, 7 are borderlands, 6 are civilized, 7 are underdark, and 4 are Wild.

 

The average AC of all figures is 22. The lowest AC is 14 (Gelatinous Cube) and the highest is 29 (Angel of Vengeance). Over a quarter of the set has an AC of 25 or higher. The lowest AC for minis that cost 40 points or more is 23. The average is 26.

 

The average hp of all figures is 55. The most common hp value is 65. The highest hp value is 90, with two minis (Ragedrake and Angel of Vengeance) having this hp value. The lowest is 10 hps, possessed by the farmer. With the exception of the Sahaugin Baron (which only has 60 hit points), all minis that cost 40 points and over have at least 65 hit points.

 

The average best melee attack roll of all figures is +13. The highest attack bonus is +20 from the Angel of Vengeance, and the lowest is +7, from the Militia Archer (He apparently does not have as high of an attack bonus as the Farmer.) Of the creatures that cost 40 points or more, The lowest melee attack bonus is +14. The average is +17. This means that the Angel of Vengeance will be effectively missed half the time. This also means that, when attacking each other, the highest cost minis will be typically hitting on a 9 or better.

 

The average melee damage value of all figures is 20. The highest damage value is 25. This is shared by 6 creatures, though one, the Werewolf Champion, can easily increase that value to 35. The most common damage value is 10, with 1/3 of the set doing 10 points of melee damage. The lowest cost mini that hits for 20 damage is currently the Dwarf Brawler, at 23 points. This makes the Sellswords typical damage of 20 particularly exceptional. The average damage of 40 points or more minis is 20. Four of them do less than twenty. Three of these are commanders, and the fourth is able to mitigate its low damage due to an easily refreshed special ability.

 

It appears to me that the majority of the high cost minis are pretty consistent in relative power level. While some appear to have more room for abuse (the Eternal Blade being the biggest offender there), it looks like any faction will be able to build a warband that takes advantage of a combined arms sort of set-up with hybrid units, dedicated melee units, and dedicated ranged/artillery units. For mixed or dedicated artillery units, borderlands has the Astral Stalker, Maticore Sniper, Drider, Halfling Enchanter, Militia Archer, and Halfling Rogue. Civilized has the Cliffwalk Archer, Elf Conjurer, Yuan-ti Malison, Halfling Enchanter, Milita Archer, and Halfling Rogue. Underdark has the Astral Stalker, Drider, Spined Devil, and Flame Snake. Wild has the Cliffwalk Archer, Elf Conjurer, Manticore Sniper, Yuan-ti Malison, Spined Devil, and Flame Snake. Underdark appears to have less options that the other factions, but this is probably due to its relatively low amount of Underdark figures in the set. Night Below is likely to be a correcting force in this matter, considering the high number of Underdark creatures likely to appear in that set.

 

The relative quality of the factions is difficult to determine at this time thanks to the changes in the rules and the appearance of relative figure parity. Despite this, it is not too difficult to guess that Borderlands will have some an early lead thanks to the presence of the superb Eternal Blade and the fact they have an easier time hitting 10 activations with the presence of the Farmer (a strength that Civilized shares). Whether this strength remains pending further testing, is unknown at this time. At the very least the other factions should be able to compete thanks to their ready access to a wide range of decent figures across the point costs.

 

Other figures that are particularly noteworthy include the Nightmare, who has values in attack, armor class, and damage that are rather exceptional, particularly considering the ease in which it can gain combat advantage on a flank. The Osyluth and the Rage Drake both have particularly high levels of burst damage. The Osyluth’s is particularly noteworthy because it has an easy recharge condition. With its attack bonuses and the hit point values of most minis in this set, it should be able to use its Reaping Claws every other round at the very least. The Rage Drake’s high base damage potential and ability to gain an immediate melee attack when necessary enable it to unleash a large amount of controlled damage when necessary. It might not be able to do it as much as the Osyluth, but when it does do it, it has a higher damage potential. The Blood of Vol Fanatic and Blade Spider both have very good hit points for their costs, despite their relatively low attack values they look like they have at least some competitive viability.

 

The minis that I most want to build around are the Astral Stalker, Fire Archon, Nightmare, Werewolf Champion, Eternal Blade, and Mercenary General. However I suspect that I will try to investigate a lot of the lower cost figures too. I think something like Mercenary General + 9 Sellswords + Nightmare shows a LOT of promise. With the Mercenary General buffing the Sellswords attacks up to a +15 every round of engagement (or +19 when using their finishing blow) I suspect that there are very few warbands that can stand up to its sheer hit point totals and damage output in melee. Granted the warband isn’t particularly fast and might end up being overly vulnerable to ranged, burst, and line attacks but I think it still has some serious potential.


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01/24/2008 12:27 PM  

The Angel of Vengence got VERY powerful in the update, and you can use it with the Fire archon.

 

The Gelatinous cube also got a major boost, it may be useful in skirmish now


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01/24/2008 12:32 PM  
Yeah, the Gelatinous Cube is now non-awful in skirmish, though I doubt i will run it in anything except sealed. I am still not sure about the Angel of Vengeance. It has some really sexy stuff, but I am not sure if it will end up being competitive.

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01/24/2008 12:43 PM  
I already planning a warband with the Angle of Vengeance and Fire Archon.


The Angle has a good advantage in that after it uses sign of vengeance it can automatcial jump to the target that was within 10 squares no matter how far away it runs, it can also be used on a ally.


So you can use sign of vengeance on a enemy and it will never escape getting attacked, or you can use it on a ally and you got an automatic safty "jump" spot


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01/24/2008 4:13 PM  
On first glance I like the Eternal Blade with 2-3 Werewolf Champs.  The Eternal Blade is just sick.Â

I still like the Fire Archon.  Still a solid piece although a little nerfed.Â

Sahugin Baron went down the toilet.Â

Cyclops works well for me also.  A very strong hitter.Â




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01/25/2008 5:02 AM  
We don't know yet exactly which maps are for sure available, right? This makes a difference.

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01/25/2008 6:25 AM  
Definitely. I am thinking of just playing matches on maps I expect to make the transition over, or at least exclude those that I do NOT expect to make the transition over. Which maps do you expect not to make it?

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bshugg
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01/25/2008 7:49 AM  
Maps that will probably get the axe:
Teleport temple - too complex
Thieves Quarter - Too broken, Just doesn't play well at all
Drow Outpost- Too swingy, Everytime you see it played one band always has a huge advantage
dragon's down grotto - Too broken, Almost every match up played on it is decided by the map.
Frostfell rift - Too swingy, with the new pit rules and more pushes this map may be too strong for bands designed to use it.
Drow Enclave - No summoning as of yet makes this map a bit dated.



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01/25/2008 8:38 AM  
I've played 4 games now with 2.0 so with my limited experience some thoughts:

In the near vacuum of playing 1 set the following figs are pretty insane:

Eternal Blade
Astral Stalker
Nightmare
Osyluth

All due to really high attacks in a format with lots of single attacks and high AC's

Probably the most broken band early on is piles of sellswords with the Merc General and support. Usually 1 or 2 nightmares. It will be the band to beat until the next set is released. I think it is possible to beat it, just that you HAVE to plan on it.

Werewolf Champs + Cultists are good just not as overly good as I initially thought. They miss a decent amount against the higher AC's meaning they need to last longer to win, and they have trouble against the piles of sellswords due to their average AC. Just from reading the spoiler I thought there wouldn't be anything that could match them.

figures are MUCH faster. With a move and charge you can really expand your threat range.

Hitters get ganged up on. Since there's more movement, often a full strength hitter gets whacked once, then everyone else piles up on it and kills it. There's much less ability to protect your wounded hitters.

SA's that don't smash you in the face for 20+ damage seem a bit out of place.

Pig Farmers are damn mean!

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01/25/2008 9:03 AM  
Wow, I keep on agreeing with you completely about warbands. Either there is a really limited number of warband options and we are both finding them, or we just think a lot more alike than we used to. :P

Would you add Hellspike to that list? It really punishes LOS bands but that might be considered a feature rather than a bug.

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01/25/2008 10:23 AM  
I've always sort of personally felt that hellspike was still fair for ranged bands. It nerfs attacks that want to almost sit on the starting area and blast away which is no fu. However, mobile ranged guys or ranged guys with blindsight can still function. So it stifles range and forces it to be a bit more creative which is ok in my book. The designers may feel differently though.

I would like to see most maps be legal for the 2.0 game but tournament play actually restrict to 6 or so maps that are fairly nuetral or only mildly nerfing. The maps can be rotated seasonally to keep them from being stagnant. That way they can keep pushing the edge and make cool maps but have some control to keep the dragonsdown grottos and thieves quarters from ruining a whole season of tournament play.


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Nyarlathotep333
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01/25/2008 10:26 AM  
It looks like the Angel of Vengeance is going to be a really good piece. It takes the hit and run bands and effectively nerfs that strategy with the Vengeful Step. With it's high AC, Defense & HP as well as a +20 to attack with it will be a real threat towards that strategy it seems.

Of course I haven't actually sat down and really combed through the cards or played yet. I may be totally off here with this analysis. I'm going to try and get a few games going soon with the new rules, but I find myself with little time lately due to the fact that I'm currently the GM for our RPG group. I like the mini's stats...still wish they had made it look better though.

I am excited to see that we still have 3 point fodder! For a while it looked like they were doing away with low-cost fodder peices like that.

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01/25/2008 10:32 AM  
well ive played on the blue dragon layer and it seemed like allot of fun... id probably look for a couple of the easier to look at maps to be converted... caves of chaos and the waterfall lair specifically... theres nothing wrong with mythril mines either...

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01/25/2008 10:54 AM  
And what do you think about put 2 eternal blades in the warband+astral stalker and fillers?

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01/25/2008 11:10 AM  
Maurio, I think it would be more efficient to run two astral stalkers and an eternal blade. Not that that warband would be bad, by any stretch of the imagination.

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01/25/2008 4:34 PM  
Posted By bshugg on 01/25/2008 8:38 AM
I've played 4 games now with 2.0 so with my limited experience some thoughts:

In the near vacuum of playing 1 set the following figs are pretty insane:

Eternal Blade
Astral Stalker
Nightmare
Osyluth

All due to really high attacks in a format with lots of single attacks and high AC's

Probably the most broken band early on is piles of sellswords with the Merc General and support. Usually 1 or 2 nightmares. It will be the band to beat until the next set is released. I think it is possible to beat it, just that you HAVE to plan on it.

Werewolf Champs + Cultists are good just not as overly good as I initially thought. They miss a decent amount against the higher AC's meaning they need to last longer to win, and they have trouble against the piles of sellswords due to their average AC. Just from reading the spoiler I thought there wouldn't be anything that could match them.

figures are MUCH faster. With a move and charge you can really expand your threat range.

Hitters get ganged up on. Since there's more movement, often a full strength hitter gets whacked once, then everyone else piles up on it and kills it. There's much less ability to protect your wounded hitters.

SA's that don't smash you in the face for 20+ damage seem a bit out of place.

Pig Farmers are damn mean!

Until we get the Sellswords, what works best right now with the Merc General and Nightmare?Â





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01/25/2008 7:29 PM  

WotC Ian has hinted (see link below) that perhaps Evermelt will be made DCI-legal and/or most of the maps will be converted over to 2.0.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=979372&highlight=evermelt


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01/26/2008 6:25 AM  
Posted By bshugg on 01/25/2008 8:38 AM
Pig Farmers are damn mean!
The Farmer is the new Orc Warrior--but even better.

Dave


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01/26/2008 6:46 AM  
Posted By Vrecknidj on 01/26/2008 6:25 AM
Posted By bshugg on 01/25/2008 8:38 AM
Pig Farmers are damn mean!
The Farmer is the new Orc Warrior--but even better.

Dave



This is what eating too much bacon and ham will do to you.Â




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01/26/2008 8:06 PM  
It's been said that the farmed will be changed a bit - that's probably nerfed.

I got to play a few test games at friday - lost them all but still had fun. I had little choise as I haven't bought much of DoD - Hulk is my only rare! Anyway, here's what I noticed:

First combat was 100pts on half-size map, Drow Cleric, mummy & 2 skellies against Osyluth, drider and something else. Osyluth was really tough, especially as his special ability is so easy to recharge. Cleric seemed fun, but I got to do too little with it this time - commander effect with mummy, umber hulk or some other bad save-effect is great. I wait to get to test it with better fig selection & 200pts! Area attacks seem great with attack rolls, more free targeting changes a lot and flanks are easy to form with shifts.

The combat is really fast and mobile. In the second 100pt game (half-size map), Feral troll charged my carefully advanced Cleric of Bahamuth the first turn. As there was new rules and new abilities, it was difficult to remember everything, and I should have used my Militia archer's bonus right from the beginning. Before there's some more experience, it seems to be hard to use 'beginning of round' -abilities. CoB was my favourite here, he was the last survivor and I even got to crit the ogre with it :) He was hard to hit & accurate against large borderland creatures and instant curing was a relief!

Third game was my first game on Thieve's quarter. I won't cry when this map goes away :P 2 flying conjurers & angel were nasty opponent, especially when supported by a horde of angry peasants. I had a wild band, a hulk, 2 cultists, crocodile, yuan-ti malison, 2 fire elementals & scarab swarm. Swarm was great, and it could be a real foiler for some heavy figs, due to it's no save -stun. Yuan-ti was a great archer although vulnerable, Hulk would have been great, but with all the confusion I forgot Hulk's burrow & sapper and I did a few other bad moves too - including forgetting new charge rules. It was strange to see that confusion is a ranged attack that calls for OA... Shift is easy to remember from the rpg.

I don't think I did any damage to the teleporting & flying angel, the map was really confusing as I had only 1 character being able to move from roof to roof, and of course I forgot this ability... Blocking entrances shouldn't be that easy.

What I missed is more abilities like sellsword's so bloodied would have more effect.

If eternal blade really works on area effects after fixing the cards... wow. Somebody at wotc boards mentioned that it's themed warband killer, which sounds true and is something I don't like. Also, for now it seems to work on misses too, if miss does any damage.

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