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warchanter Sergeant
 394 Posts



 Italy
 | | 03/11/2008 2:39 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 03/11/2008 12:19 PM In fact, for everyone choosing not to like 4E at this time, when it comes out, will you be at least sampling it? To what degree, and why or why not?
[disclaimer: I am not insinuatiing any opinion on your choice, I'm just curious.]
Nope, won't be trying 4E. The reason? Well, first of all NO BARDS! Hahaha! Would you believe it? I almost fainted when I heard that. "They will come in a future product". Yeah, ok. I'll play a requiem with my lute in the meanwhile. I'll be in my bunk, call me if you need me. No, seriously, I understand a new player: he gets into the game now, he chooses 4E. I even uderstand the "urge" to attract new gamers and the need to evolve. That's fine. Life is fast nowdays. Everything must be faster to be on the edge (that doesn't make it good, mind you). In my case, however, I already have all the 3rd Edition books I'll ever need to play (and that means PHB, DMG, MM1 and PSI Handbook) and still use my old Basic and 2E modules and supplements (The bard's handbook being one of my favourites). I feel no need to change the rules system. I'm too old for that :). Me and my long time friends/gaming group are fine and happy with what we got. Why go over and over again the same old things just for the sake of ... making Wotc sell their products? That doesn't make sense. Besides, would you tell my group that their barbarians, bards, druids, monks and sorcerers (not to mention prestige classes)... well, don't exist anymore? It could be years before we see an updated version of them. So, again, why bother? 4E is for a new gen. of players. Let them decide if its worth their time.
As for our minis, will I try DDM2. I already have. Will I quit DDM1? No.
| | Nexxstalker on WoTC Boards | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7908 Posts



 Sector 2814
 | | 03/11/2008 2:56 PM |
| Posted By warchanter on 03/11/2008 2:39 PM Posted By Teflon Jeff on 03/11/2008 12:19 PM In fact, for everyone choosing not to like 4E at this time, when it comes out, will you be at least sampling it? To what degree, and why or why not?
[disclaimer: I am not insinuatiing any opinion on your choice, I'm just curious.]
Nope, won't be trying 4E. The reason? Well, first of all NO BARDS! Hahaha! Would you believe it? I almost fainted when I heard that. "They will come in a future product". Yeah, ok. I'll play a requiem with my lute in the meanwhile. I'll be in my bunk, call me if you need me. No, seriously, I understand a new player: he gets into the game now, he chooses 4E. I even uderstand the "urge" to attract new gamers and the need to evolve. That's fine. Life is fast nowdays. Everything must be faster to be on the edge (that doesn't make it good, mind you). In my case, however, I already have all the 3rd Edition books I'll ever need to play (and that means PHB, DMG, MM1 and PSI Handbook) and still use my old Basic and 2E modules and supplements (The bard's handbook being one of my favourites). I feel no need to change the rules system. I'm too old for that :). Me and my long time friends/gaming group are fine and happy with what we got. Why go over and over again the same old things just for the sake of ... making Wotc sell their products? That doesn't make sense. Besides, would you tell my group that their barbarians, bards, druids, monks and sorcerers (not to mention prestige classes)... well, don't exist anymore? It could be years before we see an updated version of them. So, again, why bother? 4E is for a new gen. of players. Let them decide if its worth their time. As for our minis, will I try DDM2. I already have. Will I quit DDM1? No.
Interesting. How did you convince them to switch to 3E? There were a lot of things that weren't in there when it started.
I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You don't want to change, regardless of what it's too? Would you feel the same if 4E were regarded as the greatest thing since sliced bread?
Furthermore, let's say in 2009, PH2 comes out with all those classes. Would you try it then?
I apologize if I come off sarcastic. I assure, I'm not. I'm being sincere and inquisitive, with only the best intentions.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| auggest Sneak
 130 Posts




 | | 03/11/2008 3:03 PM |
| would you try it in the rain would you try it on a train
you play it in a box, would you play it with a fox | | I R SPEELING GOD | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7908 Posts



 Sector 2814
 | | 03/11/2008 3:25 PM |
| Posted By auggest on 03/11/2008 3:03 PM would you try it in the rain would you try it on a train
you play it in a box, would you play it with a fox
I do not like this new "4-E" I do not like it, let me be.
I do not like this strange new game In fact I find it rather lame.
I do not like 4th edition I do not like it Jeff of Teflon!
Actually, I'm a bit indifferent (I lean both ways depending on what new info is blowing around) I'm just always curious about others thought process and reasoning.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| E Thug of the Round Table Wolfgang Warlord
 6637 Posts



 Milton, Ontario Canada
 | | 03/11/2008 3:28 PM |
| I do not like this new "4-E" I do not like it, let me be.
I do not like this strange new game In fact I find it rather lame.
I do not like 4th edition I do not like it Jeff of Teflon!
somebody has too much time on there hands | | Proud member since March 26 2005 Champion of the SIVAK DRACONIAN Completed trades: (94) Bad traders(2) DJchuckles, sardal Called shots:Sivak Draconian in DD Trade References Email Me | |
| yack Commander
 3321 Posts



 Gatineau Canada
 | | 03/11/2008 3:28 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 03/11/2008 12:19 PM In fact, for everyone choosing not to like 4E at this time, when it comes out, will you be at least sampling it? To what degree, and why or why not?
[disclaimer: I am not insinuatiing any opinion on your choice, I'm just curious.]
I will read through the PHB and unless its very different then what my views are of it right now it will be skipped. But I will read through it. The feel of 4th ed to me is rush battles, more video game feel not more RPG feel. I feel 4th ed. from what I have read has lost its classic Dungeons and Dragons feel and just leaning to just a fantasy game. I'm not saying don't play 4th ed. I'm just stating from what I have seen so far it is not my taste of Dungeons and Dragons. From the game that I grew up on. Yes I play 3.5 and dislike all the fluff with the PClasses, which I play mostly core. Another reason is I dislike the thought of never being able to use the 20 years worth of gaming material I have for 3.5 Thats juts some examples of why I will be staying to 3.5 most likely. That is just my opion I could go in more detail but I'm rushed right now on the computer :P
| | Champion of the Peryton Vindicated Champion : Pit Fiend, Devourer DW: Duergar Priest RPG Only!!!! The Drumming Drunkn' DM | |
| warchanter Sergeant
 394 Posts



 Italy
 | | 03/11/2008 4:58 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 03/11/2008 12:19 PM
Interesting. How did you convince them to switch to 3E? There were a lot of things that weren't in there when it started.
I
want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You don't want to
change, regardless of what it's too? Would you feel the same if 4E were
regarded as the greatest thing since sliced bread?
Furthermore, let's say in 2009, PH2 comes out with all those classes. Would you try it then?
I apologize if I come off sarcastic. I assure, I'm not. I'm being sincere and inquisitive, with only the best intentions.
I think I see where you want to get to, but ok, I'll tell you why 3E over 2E ten years ago.
1) No need to convince anyone. We needed to change, back then. When we saw that AC was positive and that Thac0 was gone there were cheers of happyness. We kept using our 2E books (yes, even the DMG), taking bits from here and there. The last 3E books we bought were Expanded Psionic Handbook and, some years later, Spell Compendium. There, triple it with DMG, PHB and MM1 and you have a perfectly funny game without needing more "options" (well, you need a good DM and some really nice fellows). I learnt that 4E was coming because of DDM2 (my other fellow players don't play minis). Switching to 4E hasn't even been an option. 4E will be perfect for new players. We just don't need it. 2) It's not that I don't want to change. I simply don't need to (I sound a bit repetitive here...). 3) I wouldn't change to 4E even if it was regarded the best thing in the world because, for me, it's really just another game system. I could switch to d100 If I needed to play a different rules set. But (again, sorry) I don't need to. Really. 4) In 2009 a PHB2 comes out. In 2010 a PHB3 comes out. In 20XX a PHBX comes out. That's funny, but not for me. I really have no use for all those books and certainly I don't need (...) a Bard in 2009 because I already have a nice (and, well, unbelievably talented) one now.
Does that answer your questions? : )
| | Nexxstalker on WoTC Boards | |
| ScruffyRanger Sergeant
 363 Posts



 Central Coast AUSTRALIA
 | | 03/11/2008 5:14 PM |
| 3.5 vs. 4th Ed.?
What is this the featherweight bout or something? Both of them would be drilled by red box basic set. Yes sir, the main event ended long ago. | | ScruffyRanger's Promo Page! Check it out here!
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| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 13116 Posts



 Mud Lick, Kentucky
 | | 03/11/2008 5:43 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 03/11/2008 12:17 PM
Ghendar, I did want to ask, are you going to try 4E? if so, how much? One session, one campaign? I'm just curious.
Despite my negativity, I will be trying it. You might ask why I would bother to try it if I dislike so much of what I've seen so far. It's a fair question. There's three reasons.
1 - My group will be trying it when it comes out. No idea how long we will try it. Kind of depends how everyone feels about the system. 2 - My curiosity is currently stronger than my dislike. As weird as it might sound from someone so negative, I'm genuinely curious about what WotC comes up with. I may in fact end up liking it (I doubt it), but even if I do like it, it certainly doesn't sound like what I want D&D to be. 3 - I can't make a final judgement on the system until I actually play it.
| | WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :( I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 13116 Posts



 Mud Lick, Kentucky
 | | 03/11/2008 5:48 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 03/11/2008 3:25 PM Posted By auggest on 03/11/2008 3:03 PM would you try it in the rain would you try it on a train
you play it in a box, would you play it with a fox I do not like this new "4-E" I do not like it, let me be. I do not like this strange new game In fact I find it rather lame. I do not like 4th edition I do not like it Jeff of Teflon! Actually, I'm a bit indifferent (I lean both ways depending on what new info is blowing around) I'm just always curious about others thought process and reasoning. That was awesome guys. Thanks for the chuckle.
| | WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :( I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM Could somebody explain Snatch to me? I understand the basics, but not how to enter/use it. - Posted by orcmonk220 G's the man. - Posted By greyhaze on 11/11/2008 8:58 AM I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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| Dordledum Commander
 3463 Posts



 Netherlands
 | | 03/12/2008 1:16 AM |
| I do not dislike 4e, but will not try it either.
Why not? The campaigns I've got going are a long-running 3.5 FR campaign, a D20-future campaign (sort of 3.x-ish), and a 3.5 Homebrew campaign. We will not be switching for at least 1-2 years with either group, because of the time and money we all invested in 3.5 and the game products (incl. adventures) we have still lying about and not played yet.
I'm totally on board with DDM 2.0 though.
Why? I loved 1.0, but 2.0 is now the tournament standard. Practicising for and playing of tournaments (large or small) is the best part of DDM for me. And it's simply fun to learn a new game with familiar figures.
D. | | Member of the Bearded Devils Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and the Orog Fighter! | |
| Knight of the Round Table Thenameless Warlord
 12541 Posts



 The Fortress of Solitude
 | | 03/12/2008 4:40 AM |
| | Those are very good reasons to not switch immediately. Get your full enjoyment out of the unused 3.5 stuff that your group has invested in, and then see after that. | | Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
| mazra Sergeant
 442 Posts



 Canton, GA
 | | 03/12/2008 3:18 PM |
| Posted By Thenameless on 03/12/2008 4:40 AM Those are very good reasons to not switch immediately. Get your full enjoyment out of the unused 3.5 stuff that your group has invested in, and then see after that.
Hi Thenameless,
Very good advice!
I will invest in the 4.0 books when they come out. If game play is significantly better then I will begin merging my campaing into to 4.0. If game play is not better, then I may never migrate over.
I have played in every version of D&D since its inception. I truly disliked 2nd Edition and maintained my campaigns in 1st Edition until I found 3.0 to be superior. I will take the same stance with 4.0. If it is superior then I will change, if not then I have the materials to play 3.5 until 5.0 is released.
I am sure someone or myself will be able to restat 4.0 cards backwards into 3.5. I will not be surprised if we have a thread devoted to this before the end of the year.
Thanks for your time!
Mazra | | | |
|  Bert the Troll Commander
 3964 Posts



 Adelaide
 | | 03/12/2008 3:36 PM |
| Posted By Oryan77 on 03/10/2008 10:08 PM Posted By Bert the Troll on 03/10/2008 9:15 PM The difference is what is construed as an insult over just talking/ranting, and I was concerned that your discussion was going to pass that. I'd rather (or at least I try to) ask people to consider how others are viewing thier posts than locking a thread. I have been nothing but civil. Again, you're trying to judge me on my tone and speaking style and using that as a reason to lock threads (as I noticed you locked the other thread). Many of us don't have the patience to walk on ice and worry about upsetting some poor guys sensitive feelings. You and a few others may *think* that what I'm saying and how I'm saying it is the beginnings of an insult, but I'm sorry...it's not. This is normal "bar counter" conversational speaking and if someone isn't used to it or gets nervous/insulted by it, that's their problem. I've not flamed anyone, I've not even used foul language (which I am prone to do in person). I don't deserve to be reprimanded for my personality and have threads locked because of it. Gamers in general are pretty socially awkward to begin with...don't critisize me because I can carry a normal conversation the way an average joe would talk to his friends. I'm so tired of sensitive people here getting their way and making people like me look like we're the bad ones. Don't lock a thread just because it "might" turn into a flame war. Lock it if it does. A cop doesn't ticket me because I might speed...he waits until I broke the law. We are all grown adults, I swear some of you people need to thicken that skin of yours and man-up (I'm not targeting you Bert). I personally am a grown man that doesn't need to be babysat and "tell" on others when they upset me. I'm old enough to suck it up and deal with it myself. And I don't see enough real children posting here to warrent a babysitter. That's a major reason why this website is so alienated...no one can be themselves and just hang out. I don't mind if there's sensitive people here with very positive outlooks on everything...it's a breath of fresh air. But don't crap on people just because they are outspoken or blunt.
-
First, I think you would be better off viewing maxminis as a library rather than a bar, if you need a real word similie to match consvertation tone to. In a bar, you (or at least I) use rougher language, and typically give mates a harder time. Doesn't mean the discussion is less adult (or perhaps not more so) without that element, but you need to tailor your words differently seated around a library. And unlike a pub, maxminis is more a PG rated place. This is not saying that you can't hold serious topics to discuss, or disagree with people. I pretty much reject your stereotyping of gamers as socially awkward (well gamers besides you seemed to be the gist).Its a tired, and much over used cliche that doesn't hold up long to reality. Gamers, a very broad term, come from all walks of life and different cultures. Heck, if you call a gamer anyone who has shot a zombie or played an elf, virtually everyone in current generation of teens is a gamer. Even if you mean gamers to be so narrow a term to mean RPG players (exluding a portion of maxmini population then), the whole fatguy dribbling in mamma's basement thing is the exception not the rule imo.
To continue bluntly, I really wouldn't view my asking you to cool down ongoing posts within a thread as a reprimand to your personalty. That's just being oversensitive imo, and we must have quite different definitions over what a reprimand is. Allegories about cops don't really work very well. You can come up with 1000's of allegories about anything pro or con, & finding examples of where pre-emptive action is useful aint hard to do.
You perhaps should of noted that I talked in terms of how others would perceive your posts, which is different to saying you were trying to flame or be insulting etc, or judging you. I also shared the blame equally in the thread I did lock - seems your implying it was based just ony our actions. I don't expect that I will get the line of moderation right in every case *shrugs* There will always be threads that I should of locked, or threads I should of left unlocked. I'm not going to lose sleep over (hopefully) few mistakes. I certaintily dont share the opinion that just being blunt gets you crapped on. (As an aside, I am reminded of those people who love to say they insist of always being 100% honest and use that as thier excuse to abuse anyone they want.)
People can complain. People will complain. People will complain about people complaining. Then people will complain about people complaining about people complaining. That has always been part of maxminis. It's a much a part of maxminis as people complaining about how xxxxx maxminis is _now_, and how much better it would be if maxmini's listen to thier advice.
It's probably worth noting, that if you or others want to make constuctive advice about maxminis, how its run, what it should be doing, or even just have your complaints listened to, its better as a post in forums dicussion than snips at the end of posts.Â
| | "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
|  Bert the Troll Commander
 3964 Posts



 Adelaide
 | | 03/12/2008 3:39 PM |
| Posted By Dordledum on 03/11/2008 12:04 PM And the fact remains, some people love to feel offended :)
D.
Can't get this out my head now:
Sweet dreams are made of this Who am I to disagree? Travel the world and the seven seas Everybody's looking for something Some of them want to offend you Some of them want to get offend by you Some of them want to offend you Some of them want to be offend
 | | "Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit Semi-Secret sig business: "In the age of the internet attaching a famous name to your personal opinion to give more weight to it is a very valid strategy." - Benjamin Franklin Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7908 Posts



 Sector 2814
 | | 03/13/2008 8:04 AM |
| Thanks for some of the great answers. They've really been enlightening.
If you guys are wondering why I'm so curious, I've recently found that the last 3-5 years have been one of relative comfort. No major changes that weren't wanted (like children or marriage) Gaming has been pretty solid, same at work. But I recently noticed that it's all changing. Work is changing, gaming is changing, time is changing, going back to school. there's a lot of change, and I'm trying to sift through which changes are good or bad, and 4E is one of the harder ones. So, I'm vastly interested in others take on this change. Plus, I just like to see how others view some things.
So again, thanks.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| warchanter Sergeant
 394 Posts



 Italy
 | | 03/13/2008 9:14 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 03/13/2008 8:04 AM Thanks for some of the great answers. They've really been enlightening.
If you guys are wondering why I'm so curious, I've recently found that the last 3-5 years have been one of relative comfort. No major changes that weren't wanted (like children or marriage) Gaming has been pretty solid, same at work. But I recently noticed that it's all changing. Work is changing, gaming is changing, time is changing, going back to school. there's a lot of change, and I'm trying to sift through which changes are good or bad, and 4E is one of the harder ones. So, I'm vastly interested in others take on this change. Plus, I just like to see how others view some things.
So again, thanks.
You're welcome ;D | | Nexxstalker on WoTC Boards | |
| Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6844 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 03/13/2008 10:27 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 03/13/2008 8:04 AM Thanks for some of the great answers. They've really been enlightening.
Since you have asked for our reasons not to move on to 4e, and you really seem to want to know, I will gather together some of the primary factors.
My reluctance to do this stems from a couple larger factors. One is the amount of times I have already done this. The other is that I am not interested in stating my reasons for not playing 4e so that others can try to shoot down my reasons or try to persuade me to change my mind. Some may be on the fence still deciding. I am not on the fence anymore. I have decided.
These reasons are not in any particular order: (1)  I think that 3.5 is an excellent system. It is such a good system that I don't think it needs to be changed in any significant ways. Sure there are smaller things about it that some may not like as much, but these are small things that do not, in my mind, justify a new edition. (2)  I have spent thousands of dollars on D&D. I am not one who spends hundreds of dollars on hobbies typically. Thousands is a bit ridiculous. (3)  Tiefling is a core race (4)  Warlock is a core class (and I don't like the concepting behind it) (5)  The artwork for weapons and things is too cartoony and extreme (6)  Instead of trying to put all the core races and classes in the PHB, they are intentionally spreading them out over different books. I realize that playtesting all those other classes and races would delay the edition further, but I don't think they have ever really playtested anything long enough before publishing anyway. This contributed to splat books offering so many munchkin combos that may or may not have been discovered by the designers before the books were printed for 3.5. (7)  I feel a sense of betrayal from WotC for doing 4e. The hobby shops are going to be losing money on their 3.5 books. WotC doesn't seem to care much since they have already sold those 3.5 books to the hobby shops. (I am not a hobby shop, but I sympathize with them.) (8)  I am playing in two D&D groups that have decided to continue with 3.5. This means that I don't have to go looking for people to continue playing 3.5 with me. (9)  The focus on making things be online with a monthly fee. Having stuff that you can unlock online provided you buy the physical copy. This means that material intended to go with the printed copy is not coming to you in printed form when you buy the physical copy. This means I have to spend my own money and print copies, and those pages are not professionally bound within the covers of the book the material belongs with in the first place. (10)  It bothers me that they knew 4e was coming for some time, and decided to not make a lot of minis for 3.5 (especially for MM1) before the switch to 4e. 4e was in the pipeline for a long time. And now that it is coming, they are reprinting a crazy number of creatures and still not making so many creatures that they never got around to making. (11)  There are other reasons, but I think my list has been fairly extensive already.
Some things I think are interesting about 4e: (1)  Diagonal movement changed to always one square. While this is not "realistic" mathematically, it sure makes counting movement easier. (2)  It looks like there might be more variation in base speeds for core races, though there isn't a lot of information to base this off of that I have seen. Example: elf has speed 7 (3)  I think there may be other things, but since I have decided not to get 4e and since the 4e forum here doesn't want anything negative to be said about 4e, I have almost quit looking at new information on 4e. If I were to look at it, I would have opinions to share.
It is more likely that I will review class/race information and adapt a personal campaign setting for 3.5 than that I will play 4e. I may take a few rules I like about 4e and adapt a homebrew campaign accordingly.
| | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7908 Posts



 Sector 2814
 | | 03/13/2008 11:23 AM |
| Corim, thank you very much for your input. I appreciate it.
One thing I might wonder, though. I know that delegates will be doing 4E demos, and I'm pretty sure there's at least one in your area (possibly two, I'd have to double check) would you be willing to try a demo, and then revisit your list? I'm not sure it will addressall of your concerns, and I doubt it would convert you, but I'd be very interested in the results of such an endeavor. (and that goes for anyone not converting. I'd be interested, for a multitude of reasons, to see how a demonstration fo the game may change or shade the opinions and ideas presented. While I'd like to see people converted, of course, I have no ulterior motive. Just interest.)
One last bit. For those not converting, what are the chances you use 4E innovations you do like as house rules? For Example, Corim, will you change the diagonal counting in your game? Why or why not? Then, extrapolate that out to other instances of rules you like. Also, what about Flavor? That seems to be a major sticking point for a lot of players. Are there any flavorful ideas you like? If so, will you adapt them? Why or why not?
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6844 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 03/13/2008 11:36 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 03/13/2008 11:23 AM Corim, thank you very much for your input. I appreciate it.
One thing I might wonder, though. I know that delegates will be doing 4E demos, and I'm pretty sure there's at least one in your area (possibly two, I'd have to double check) would you be willing to try a demo, and then revisit your list? I'm not sure it will addressall of your concerns, and I doubt it would convert you, but I'd be very interested in the results of such an endeavor. (and that goes for anyone not converting. I'd be interested, for a multitude of reasons, to see how a demonstration fo the game may change or shade the opinions and ideas presented. While I'd like to see people converted, of course, I have no ulterior motive. Just interest.)
One last bit. For those not converting, what are the chances you use 4E innovations you do like as house rules? For Example, Corim, will you change the diagonal counting in your game? Why or why not? Then, extrapolate that out to other instances of rules you like. Also, what about Flavor? That seems to be a major sticking point for a lot of players. Are there any flavorful ideas you like? If so, will you adapt them? Why or why not?
I will answer some of the questions now. I would not be opposed to attending a demo. If I attended a demo, it would not be to decide if I was going to change to 4e. It would be to gather information on potential house rules. There are two delegates, as I understand it. Qucalion of Ceylene and GiuJiaXian (I think I spelled that right). The diagonal depends on the groups I play with. If they were for it, I would do it. I think it makes movement much easier to count. We would stick with the radius effects of 3.5, though. I really like the idea of an elf being just a little bit faster (speed 7). I recommended that to Steven Schubert, and I don't know if it influenced their decision to go with it. It would be cool if my little email made a difference, but I have no real idea if it did. I don't know as much about the flavor. I don't like the WoW feel of 4e. But I have not read up thoroughly on 4e to know enough right now to comment much on flavor. I have no strong attachment to any campaign settings in 3.5, other than having a strong aversion to Eberron. I don't like FR as much as I thought I would, and haven't played it. I don't like what little I know about the Eladrin/Elf flavor of 4e. I don't like wild elves/wood elves as much as high elves, so to speak. And 4e is making elves more wild/woody. I don't mind the forest aspect, but don't like the chaotic part. If I were to create my own version of an elf, it would not be CG, but NG. I would actually see them perhaps as LG--very aware of laws, but perhaps disdaining others' laws and respecting their own.
| | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| mazra Sergeant
 442 Posts



 Canton, GA
 | | 03/13/2008 3:09 PM |
| Hi Corim,
Good Post! Things about 4e has been bothering me too. You managed to explain, quite well by the way, some of my nagging issues with the new game system that has been rolling around in my brain. I want you to know that I agree with most of what you wrote. I too do not like the Tiefling as a core race and the Warlock as a core class.
Thanks for spelling it out!
Mazra | | | |
| Oryan77 Sergeant
 959 Posts




 | | 03/13/2008 4:54 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 03/13/2008 11:23 AM For Example, Corim, will you change the diagonal counting in your game? Why or why not? Then, extrapolate that out to other instances of rules you like. Also, what about Flavor? That seems to be a major sticking point for a lot of players. Are there any flavorful ideas you like? If so, will you adapt them? Why or why not?
Corim has a lot of similar reasons to me for not switching to 4e. Your question here about the rules is another point that I was going to add to the list for not switching.
The only reason I would ever switch editions is if it has easier rules for the DM & player's to run the game. So far, I've seen a few things in 4e that seem to make running the game easier, but then I keep reading new rules that just seem to complicate things again. Other changes don't seem to improve anything, they are just a different way of
accomplishing the same thing.
Basically, I just don't see the need for an entire new edition. The changes that I like would have already been a house rule in my 3.5 game if I really wanted to do it that way (like diagonal movement). And house rules that people used in 3.5 that I didn't like are now standard in 4e (action points & point buy system).
I also have a problem with WotC taking away the randomization of character creation & leveling. I actually like to roll to determine my ability scores and hitpoints. I like the possibility of getting a high roll & a low roll. It gives me roleplaying opportunities that I might not have chosen to do on my own and it keeps characters from being generically built cookie cutters.
Being a Planescape DM, I also have a huge problem with Tieflings being a core race. 4e completely ruined the concept behind a Tiefling and turned them into nothing more than the next fanboy race. I'm interested to see how long it'll take until people roll their eyes when hearing the name Tiefling like they do Drow. The reason I think it's a fanboy race is because they made Tieflings core but not Aasimar (cause kids won't think Aasimar are as "cool").
I'm still gonna try 4e if I can get a player to run it. The rules system may be better than 3.5 and blow my mind.
| | Miniatures for sale *more added 11/26/08*: Click here I will buy your unwanted D&D WotC minis collection (DDM only). Email me your asking price! | |
| Knight of Argenis Corim Danex Warlord
 6844 Posts



 West Valley City, Utah
 | | 03/13/2008 5:00 PM |
| I agree that I don't like point buy and action points and set hp for going up levels. I would add all three of those items to my list.
Like I mentioned, I wasn't keeping as up on 4e because they had already lost me before those things were brought to light. | | "Look to God and live." Alma 37:47 Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
| Dordledum Commander
 3463 Posts



 Netherlands
 | | 03/14/2008 5:20 AM |
| I'm trying to incorporate 4.0-style diagonal movement into our campaigns as house rule as well,
D. | | Member of the Bearded Devils Champion of the Huge Spider (WotDQ 46/60), A New Umber Hulk (DoDe 57/60), and the Orog Fighter! | |
| wicked cool Underboss
 2151 Posts




 | | 03/14/2008 5:46 AM |
| | what are the new complicated rules in 4th edition? For those keeping to 3.5 then good luck to you. im not losing any sleep over it | | The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape Vindicated-CHAMPION of the INTELLECT DEVOURER i will change my avatar when martin completes dances with dragons | |
| thekidxii Sergeant
 535 Posts



 No Yack. I said.. we need a DM not BM!
 | | 03/14/2008 6:03 AM |
| QFT
Posted By ScruffyRanger on 03/11/2008 5:14 PM 3.5 vs. 4th Ed.?
What is this the featherweight bout or something? Both of them would be drilled by red box basic set. Yes sir, the main event ended long ago.
EDIT: Just wanted to add that this is one of the best threads I've read in a while, both for it's ebtertainment and insight. Well done! | | Champion of the dire hippo. Audi Vide Tace "Nothing matters but the weekend, From a Tuesday point of view" -Diamond & Zero | |
| Master of the Awesome Sauce Teflon Jeff Warlord
 7908 Posts



 Sector 2814
 | | 03/14/2008 10:23 AM |
| Posted By thekidxii on 03/14/2008 6:03 AM QFT Posted By ScruffyRanger on 03/11/2008 5:14 PM 3.5 vs. 4th Ed.?
What is this the featherweight bout or something? Both of them would be drilled by red box basic set. Yes sir, the main event ended long ago. EDIT: Just wanted to add that this is one of the best threads I've read in a while, both for it's ebtertainment and insight. Well done!Â
I'm so vain, I probably think this post is about me!
Seriously, though, I really like the level of respect and civility we've maintained for this thread. Kudos to you all.
| | Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| E Thug of the Round Table Wolfgang Warlord
 6637 Posts



 Milton, Ontario Canada
 | | 03/14/2008 11:28 AM |
| thank you teflon very much
and am i right to belive that in 4E if you rest 6 hours you are totaly healed? that sounds alot like WoW to me | | Proud member since March 26 2005 Champion of the SIVAK DRACONIAN Completed trades: (94) Bad traders(2) DJchuckles, sardal Called shots:Sivak Draconian in DD Trade References Email Me | |
| Man of Renown Wraithborne Warlord
 5334 Posts



 The Red Light District
 | | 03/14/2008 5:14 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 03/13/2008 8:04 AM Thanks for some of the great answers. They've really been enlightening.
If you guys are wondering why I'm so curious, I've recently found that the last 3-5 years have been one of relative comfort. No major changes that weren't wanted (like children or marriage) Gaming has been pretty solid, same at work. But I recently noticed that it's all changing. Work is changing, gaming is changing, time is changing, going back to school. there's a lot of change, and I'm trying to sift through which changes are good or bad, and 4E is one of the harder ones. So, I'm vastly interested in others take on this change. Plus, I just like to see how others view some things.
So again, thanks.
Change in general is something I hadn't thought about. The 4e announcement was made shortly after Nicholas was born and the days of being able to game anytime on a day off were ending. Most of my posts during the initial unveiling were made on d3-1 hours sleep at best. Some were probably a bit extra harsh, but no less indicative of how I felt.
As far as what I don't like about 4e, well, it may be a longish list, but here goes.
1. Delaying traditional monsters/classes etc. just to hopefully sell a couple books. I really don't think the tactic will work like they think it will and it really affects me in the opposite way, pushing me away from the product.
2. The Fluff changes. I'll lump them all together in one to try and keep this from being a 20k word post. I haven't read of one single fluff change that I liked and have gotten similar reactions from my buddies. Whether it's Mountain Giants that look like the result of a profane union between an Earth Elemental and a Fomorian, Demons from the Elemental Plane of Fire, destroying the Forgotten Realms to shoehorn in the points of light concept, or a million other things, I just haven't liked any of it.
3. Between Healing Surges and Second wind, what party is ever going to go into an encounter at less than full HP? The first level characters have a ton of HPs already and can heal triple or more in a day. I just don't see any point to this at all, nor do I see any rational way to explain it.
4. Reconcepted creatures. There are very few that I like at all. Lamia, Giants, Archons, Ettercaps, etc. all stink. A couple of Notable exceptions would be DoDs Manticore (I hated the 3e one) and hopefully the Wyvern.
5. Pointless Changes. Attack of Opportunity is now Opportunity Attack? Why? There are tons of these. 3e was rife with stupid name changes too and it still has us spending too much time looking for Monster Summoning instead of Summon Monster. This is just endlessly annoying no matter what edition it's in.
6. Nothing is random. No HP roll, no stat rolls, fireballs will be like 4d6+21 or something stupid. Everyone will be a cookie cutter. Math is bad. Honestly, does it really add minutes to anyone's game adding 10d6?
7. The whole "not fun" excuse for removing something from the game. Changing big poopy diapers isn't fun either. I'm having plenty of fun with my game. I've found that most of the things removed for not being fun are things that I like and can actually add to a game. This also goes in hand with the designers bashing 3e as a way to promote 4e. Telling me something I like sucks isn't a good way to get me interested in your new product.
8. Per encounter, per day and at will abilities. My main problem is not one of game balance issues, but reality issues, especially with per encounter and per day. I know we have to suspend belief somewhat, but being able to do something once every time you see a bad guy goes beyond anything I can suspend. Getting into a battle and going, "Crap, I wish I hadn't disarmed Billy in the tavern," when you want to get the BBEGs awesome sword out of his hands is silly too.
There are probably some more issues, but I think I've hit most of them. | | Eye dun no why youse guys think im not relly a person im jimgang from canada but im moving to cali as soon as i get a master card -Jimgang So, you stand at your grave, Has your soul yet been taken away? So you can't read what's engraved, Is this Heaven or merely Decay? Was there a light, enchantingly bright, A Question, just how did it end? Just let me sift through your calm remains, And tear you away from your skin. -Sumerias Fain. | |
| Nyarlathotep333 Warrior
 287 Posts



 Alaska
 | | 03/14/2008 5:24 PM |
| Mostly for me, changing to 4e isn't about the changes as much as the cost. I'm looking at it like a whole new game and I'll probably eventually give it a try. I just can't justify plonking down $75+ dollars for all three core books right now...plus the cost of purchasing any of the future suppliments that I'd want. Honestly, with family and home costs being what they are for me I'm more excited about the fact that 3.5 stuff is dropping in price like a rock. I can actually afford some of the books I've been wanting to pick up for a while now.
Bottom line: I'll give 4e a chance before I make my mind up either way...eventually, that is. For now though I'm sticking with 3.5ed. | |
Demonweb Called Shot: Myconid Feywild Called Shot: Wolf Champion of the Zombie Black Dragon
- N333
The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair. - Douglas Adams, Mostly Harmless
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women! - Conan the Barbarian, on what is best in life
My Website - Be sure to check out my painted minis gallery!
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| warchanter Sergeant
 394 Posts



 Italy
 | | 03/14/2008 5:46 PM |
| 7. [...] This also goes in hand with the designers bashing 3e as a way to promote 4e. Telling me something I like sucks isn't a good way to get me interested in your new product.
That was one of the most annoying and sad things they've ever done. Really, really sad.
One of the other things I can grasp from what I've see is that now every class (or better, the 8 classes that survived from 3.5) is more or less the same. Magic is no longer a different way of doing things, now everyone has to make an attack roll. Standardization is what comes to my mind. Gone are also many abilities (ok, they'we "compressed" them), but that takes away a really big part of my way of playing (I've actually added some custom ones to my 3.5 games). The focus on movement and fighting techniques is also a minus in my view. I use miniatures only to skirmis, because we found out that playing RPG with them prevented our imagination to roam freely. We're still drawing things with pen and paper (tons of paper!), but that's how we like to play. But I'm sure 4E will knock at my door dressed like a PC game sometimes in the future. Will I open, then? | | Nexxstalker on WoTC Boards | |
| Oryan77 Sergeant
 959 Posts




 | | 03/15/2008 11:06 AM |
| Posted By Nyarlathotep333 on 03/14/2008 5:24 PM Honestly, with family and home costs being what they are for me I'm more excited about the fact that 3.5 stuff is dropping in price like a rock.
That's one of the big things that I love about 4e 
I'll be getting all kinds of great deals to finish out my 3.5 collection. I just got the Special Edition DMG & MM for about $12 each! The PHB is still pretty expensive but hopefully it'll drop more.
| | Miniatures for sale *more added 11/26/08*: Click here I will buy your unwanted D&D WotC minis collection (DDM only). Email me your asking price! | |
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