maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
    
 | | 03/26/2008 9:55 PM |
|
Night Below
At first glance, shadow dragon, breathweapon damage reduced and changed from cold to necrotic, shadowjump limited to range 10.
Frost Giant Jarl, Followup damage gone and just stun now.
| | | |
|
Sean-Khan
Commander
2714 Posts
| |
iluvxtina
Underboss
1497 Posts
Spain
| | 03/27/2008 1:54 AM |
| | Very well done changes | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
|
Pedro
Commander
3922 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 03/27/2008 2:33 AM |
| | Nice. | |
2007 & 2008 Czech Republic Champion
2008 Czech Republic's Player of the Year
2.0 Champion of Necromancers! (preferably not Evil:-))
Next Icon Called Shot: Baldur's Gate pack - Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc (and BOO!), Imoen, Xan, Sarevok...
Against the Giants Called Shot: Phoenix (/no luck)
Demonweb Called Shot: Yagnoloth (I like demons!)
Feywild Called Shot:
Starter 2009 Called Shot: | |
|
Sirohk
Commander
3812 Posts
USA
| | 03/27/2008 3:37 AM |
| On first glance:
1) Large Shadow Dragon powered down some (Shadowjump now range 10, less damage, is it enough?).Â
2) Frost Giant Jarl powered down (less damage)
So we now have NB for all Qualifiers.Â
 Â Â | |
Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10301 Posts
United States
| | 03/27/2008 6:23 AM |
| Oops. I posted a similar thread over in Skirmish.
I think that the changes to the Frost Giant and Shadow Dragon have made the Large Gold and Exarch bands more valuable.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
bshugg
Underboss
1821 Posts
| | 03/27/2008 7:41 AM |
| First look:
Shadow Dragon no longer destroys the game but still looks like it could be better than everything else. 
Jarl - Nerfed into tournament unplayability barring a cheap snake swift like effect to pair with him. Titans seem to have enough problems in 2.0 with out getting randomly nerfed.
Earth Mephit - No change, designers must consider immobility to be a very strong effect.
Not much else looks to be changed from a quick overview. I've got to say the changes between beta testing and final versions are definatly underwhelming. I envisioned more of a give and take in the process before going to final form. The end result is a ton of figs unplayable due to a few outliers on the strong side. If time is a real issue there are dozens of solid and proven players willing to playtest and provide input to ease the workload on WotC.
| |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
|
Temperance
Sergeant
503 Posts
| | 03/27/2008 9:20 AM |
| | I gave a list of forty changes. | |
Champion of the common Flying Monkey (Fez optional)
Peter Lee on the WotC board
BAD WOLF
| |
|
XAos
Underboss
2384 Posts
London
| | 03/27/2008 9:53 AM |
| Forost Giant Jarl;
Has gone from below-par with an interesting advantage (highest damage for a basic attack)
To being well below par.
Large Shadow Dragon;
Has gone from being blatantly OTT broken.
To very dangerous. | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10301 Posts
United States
| | 03/27/2008 10:53 AM |
| Posted By Temperance on 03/27/2008 9:20 AM
I gave a list of forty changes. That is not insignificant. Thanks for posting this information, it gives us a lot to consider.
Dave
| |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
Gohu
Sneak
78 Posts
| | 03/27/2008 11:15 AM |
| | Somebody know where are the list of 40 changes ??? | |
«I didn't came to play, i came to win» - Kamahl, Pit Fighter | |
|
Wraithborne
Commander
3546 Posts
West Virginia
| | 03/27/2008 11:17 AM |
| Glad to see these are thus far coming decently regularly.
Was the Jarl being tier 1.5 really such a terrible thing? | |
The year: 1994. From out of space comes a runaway planet, hurtling between the Earth and the Moon, unleashing cosmic destruction! Man's civilization is cast in ruin!
Two thousand years later, Earth is reborn...
A strange new world rises from the old: a world of savagery, super science, and sorcery. But one man bursts his bonds to fight for justice! With his companions Ookla the Mok and Princess Ariel, he pits his strength, his courage, and his fabulous Sunsword against the forces of evil.
He is Thundarr, the Barbarian!
| |
|
Pedro
Commander
3922 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 03/27/2008 2:33 PM |
| | I also don't get the change on Jarl. I played that warband and it is beatable, esp. with Blade. Why didn't they nerf her? | |
2007 & 2008 Czech Republic Champion
2008 Czech Republic's Player of the Year
2.0 Champion of Necromancers! (preferably not Evil:-))
Next Icon Called Shot: Baldur's Gate pack - Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc (and BOO!), Imoen, Xan, Sarevok...
Against the Giants Called Shot: Phoenix (/no luck)
Demonweb Called Shot: Yagnoloth (I like demons!)
Feywild Called Shot:
Starter 2009 Called Shot: | |
|
Lord_rock
Underboss
1792 Posts
Portland OR
| | 03/27/2008 4:00 PM |
| ohh oh o... Sad day.
40 changes... I havn't looked but if they are only to wording for clarity and not dealing with real issues on pieces then they are indeed underwhelming.
And a nice side note... Has any piece been significantly changed for the better with either beta runs? I know there have been quite a few underwhelming prices that are being overlooked as they try to find ways of balancing power pieces without changing much.
40 changes is significant but I wonder how many more beta sets can come out without REAL change before the public grows tired of spell checking and editing duties.
I'll retract my statements should things pan out better than expected.
Patterns... | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
|
Pedro
Commander
3922 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 03/27/2008 4:39 PM |
| Posted By Lord_rock on 03/27/2008 4:00 PM
ohh oh o... Sad day.
40 changes... I havn't looked but if they are only to wording for clarity and not dealing with real issues on pieces then they are indeed underwhelming.
And a nice side note... Has any piece been significantly changed for the better with either beta runs? I know there have been quite a few underwhelming prices that are being overlooked as they try to find ways of balancing power pieces without changing much.
40 changes is significant but I wonder how many more beta sets can come out without REAL change before the public grows tired of spell checking and editing duties.
I'll retract my statements should things pan out better than expected.
Patterns... You will not have to. The almost only change to good is another version of Petrify, it now gives Resist 20 All and it's a little changed. Not one of the figs that needed at least a little change to be at least T2 or 1.5 didn't get it (Loviatar...). FGJ dropped to T2, maybe even lower (or until Cold support comes). | |
2007 & 2008 Czech Republic Champion
2008 Czech Republic's Player of the Year
2.0 Champion of Necromancers! (preferably not Evil:-))
Next Icon Called Shot: Baldur's Gate pack - Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc (and BOO!), Imoen, Xan, Sarevok...
Against the Giants Called Shot: Phoenix (/no luck)
Demonweb Called Shot: Yagnoloth (I like demons!)
Feywild Called Shot:
Starter 2009 Called Shot: | |
|
Zyla
Underboss
1186 Posts
| | 03/27/2008 5:48 PM |
| | Actually petrification got a nerf, if you do manage to pull it off you have to do over 20 damage to do any damage at all | |
| |
|
Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
9043 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 03/27/2008 6:13 PM |
| Posted By Sirohk on 03/27/2008 3:37 AM On first glance:
1) Large Shadow Dragon powered down some (Shadowjump now range 10, less damage, is it enough?).Â
It's better than nothing. I would have gone to the qualifier with 4 LShD's if it stayed the way it was. Too bad, now I have to think. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10301 Posts
United States
| | 03/27/2008 6:55 PM |
| Posted By Thenameless on 03/27/2008 6:13 PM
I would have gone to the qualifier with 4 LShD's if it stayed the way it was.
Hmm, that's worth considering...
Dave
| |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
Lord_rock
Underboss
1792 Posts
Portland OR
| | 03/27/2008 8:28 PM |
| | from the sound of it 4 LshD is still viable enough to consider... Like I said before... Sad day. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
|
Lord_rock
Underboss
1792 Posts
Portland OR
| | 03/27/2008 8:28 PM |
| | from the sound of it 4 LshD is still viable enough to consider... Like I said before... Sad day. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
|
Trokair
Skirmisher
20 Posts
Atlanta, GA
| | 03/27/2008 8:46 PM |
| | from the sound of it 4 LshD is still viable enough to consider... Like I said before... Sad day. | |
-=Trokair=- | |
|
Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
9043 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 03/28/2008 1:49 AM |
| | You guys still think it's that strong? My favourite thing about the Large Shadow Dragon was its ability to get a jump on the opponent that he could not recover from. You don't get this now - at least not right off the bat. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
|
Sirohk
Commander
3812 Posts
USA
| | 03/28/2008 3:06 AM |
| 4 Large Shadow Dragons could be tough, but definately not unbeatable. As a matter of fact, 4 LShD only leaves you 8 points to fill out your warabnd and with the Darkmantle as the lowest point figure, 5 total activations. Againat most other warabnds you will be severly out activated. And 65 hps for each dragon will not last that long, even with Conceal.Â
I can think of a lot of other tougher warbands that I would rather not face.Â
| |
Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
|
XAos
Underboss
2384 Posts
London
| | 03/28/2008 5:59 AM |
| Posted By Thenameless on 03/28/2008 1:49 AM
You guys still think it's that strong? My favourite thing about the Large Shadow Dragon was its ability to get a jump on the opponent that he could not recover from. You don't get this now - at least not right off the bat.
On pure damage/survivability for cost the LShD is about a 9.5 (on a scale of 1 to 10)
So yes, even without the option to "Pearl Harbor" the enemy on phase-1 it's still very cost effective.
Consider that it has a threat range of {move +Â Jump + large Cone} = 24 squares.
And very few creatures have immunity Necrotic.
My guess is that 4xLShD is still a strong tier-1 warband.
And if a LShD warband can ever include a champion similar to the Hobgoblin Marshal, the LShD will be broken again.Posted By Sirohk on 03/28/2008 3:06 AM
I can think of a lot of other tougher warbands that I would rather not face.Â
Care to list a few, because I can't think of any warbands which are a lot tougher the 4xLShD. | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
|
Trokair
Skirmisher
20 Posts
Atlanta, GA
| | 03/28/2008 7:24 AM |
| | Neither can I... | |
-=Trokair=- | |
|
Pedro
Commander
3922 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 03/28/2008 10:01 AM |
| | MFL+UHDs proved quite strong, but I haven't played it against Shadows yet. | |
2007 & 2008 Czech Republic Champion
2008 Czech Republic's Player of the Year
2.0 Champion of Necromancers! (preferably not Evil:-))
Next Icon Called Shot: Baldur's Gate pack - Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc (and BOO!), Imoen, Xan, Sarevok...
Against the Giants Called Shot: Phoenix (/no luck)
Demonweb Called Shot: Yagnoloth (I like demons!)
Feywild Called Shot:
Starter 2009 Called Shot: | |
|
digital13jw
Skirmisher
31 Posts
| | 03/28/2008 12:52 PM |
| | I like the changes there is a counter to any band | | | |
|
PsionicDM
Skirmisher
5 Posts
| | 03/28/2008 1:49 PM |
| Posted By Pedro on 03/28/2008 10:01 AM
MFL+UHDs proved quite strong, but I haven't played it against Shadows yet. I played 2x Mind Flayer Lich + 2x Umber Hulk Delver last night and it worked really well against a Wulfgar/CCD/Orc Banebreak band. The synergy was pretty awesome: MFL confuses and slides the now-confused critter closer to the Umber Hulks to set up Prey on the Weak-Minded. Only 4 activiations may be a bit of a deal-breaker, though. The problem is that it doesn't take enough advantage of the synergies with only one Umber Hulk, and it's too fragile a build with only one Mind Flayer Lich. I'm going to keep testing with it.
Maybe I should just collect 5 of each so maybe I can play 5x MFL + 5x UHD in Epic play (495 points, 10 activations).
--Matt
| | | |
|
Sirohk
Commander
3812 Posts
USA
| | 03/28/2008 3:35 PM |
| Posted By Temperance on 03/27/2008 9:20 AM
I gave a list of forty changes.
Hey Peter, can you list the 40 changes or give us a link of where to find them?Â
Thanks.Â
| |
Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
|
azuretide
Sergeant
407 Posts
| | 03/28/2008 6:12 PM |
| | I have been playing the mind flayer and 2 umberhulks since night below came out. Throw in 2 rot scarabs and a bunch of shard skeletons and it is a brutal band. I'm a little miffed I really think that they should have changed the shadow jump to a replaces move action. I just don't think that wizards realizes how powerful the jump is even if it is limited to 10 squares you jump 10 breath jump 10 then move 8 and run. Oh well I hope that I'm wrong. | |
Completed trades: bonelock, noilo x2, greylord78, Altayr, Shadow Lord x3, qillan_dvra, symbiotesx2, devasque, smetzger, dulsin, Sir Bozak The Damned, Ironfist Boulderbender x3, tallcar24, Tactician x2, Okay McKay, skwave, dariustad,Eprosen,hung4treason,dog of the underworld,FeranEldritchKnight,Jerry_Damage01,vtloon | |
|
maijstral
Underboss
2105 Posts
| | 03/28/2008 7:09 PM |
| Posted By azuretide on 03/28/2008 6:12 PM
I have been playing the mind flayer and 2 umberhulks since night below came out. Throw in 2 rot scarabs and a bunch of shard skeletons and it is a brutal band. I'm a little miffed I really think that they should have changed the shadow jump to a replaces move action. I just don't think that wizards realizes how powerful the jump is even if it is limited to 10 squares you jump 10 breath jump 10 then move 8 and run. Oh well I hope that I'm wrong.
Peter Lee has said they are limiting it to one immediate action per creatures turn, so the shadow dragon can no longer jump breath and jump away.
| | | |
|
vanrulzz
Underboss
2468 Posts
¯\(°_o)/¯
| | 03/28/2008 8:12 PM |
| | god dangit... the Jarl is the only competitive in 2.0 fig i own and it just got ubernerfed. i am PISSED! | | | |
|
digital13jw
Skirmisher
31 Posts
| | 03/28/2008 9:59 PM |
| | he is still playable, you just need the right support for him. | | | |
|
Pedro
Commander
3922 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 03/29/2008 1:47 AM |
| Posted By digital13jw on 03/28/2008 9:59 PM
he is still playable, you just need the right support for him.
He still didn't say his last word. Some of his abilities aren't used. But still, 35 dmg when you can have more than twice more?... | |
2007 & 2008 Czech Republic Champion
2008 Czech Republic's Player of the Year
2.0 Champion of Necromancers! (preferably not Evil:-))
Next Icon Called Shot: Baldur's Gate pack - Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc (and BOO!), Imoen, Xan, Sarevok...
Against the Giants Called Shot: Phoenix (/no luck)
Demonweb Called Shot: Yagnoloth (I like demons!)
Feywild Called Shot:
Starter 2009 Called Shot: | |
|
Pedro
Commander
3922 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 03/29/2008 1:50 AM |
| Posted By PsionicDM on 03/28/2008 1:49 PM Posted By Pedro on 03/28/2008 10:01 AM
MFL+UHDs proved quite strong, but I haven't played it against Shadows yet. I played 2x Mind Flayer Lich + 2x Umber Hulk Delver last night and it worked really well against a Wulfgar/CCD/Orc Banebreak band. The synergy was pretty awesome: MFL confuses and slides the now-confused critter closer to the Umber Hulks to set up Prey on the Weak-Minded. Only 4 activiations may be a bit of a deal-breaker, though. The problem is that it doesn't take enough advantage of the synergies with only one Umber Hulk, and it's too fragile a build with only one Mind Flayer Lich. I'm going to keep testing with it. Maybe I should just collect 5 of each so maybe I can play 5x MFL + 5x UHD in Epic play (495 points, 10 activations). --Matt
Hi and welcemo to the Boards!
IÂ think that they may have too weak Ab for that. But we will see what Wizos cook up for us.
I do think they could be viable in 300 non-epic. Throw in Mastiff for fun and better AB.
| |
2007 & 2008 Czech Republic Champion
2008 Czech Republic's Player of the Year
2.0 Champion of Necromancers! (preferably not Evil:-))
Next Icon Called Shot: Baldur's Gate pack - Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc (and BOO!), Imoen, Xan, Sarevok...
Against the Giants Called Shot: Phoenix (/no luck)
Demonweb Called Shot: Yagnoloth (I like demons!)
Feywild Called Shot:
Starter 2009 Called Shot: | |
|
tendar
Skirmisher
24 Posts
Phoenix AZ USA
| | 03/29/2008 8:28 AM |
| | like the changes on shadow dragon but ruined any real use of Jarl | | | |
|
Lord_rock
Underboss
1792 Posts
Portland OR
| | 03/29/2008 11:16 AM |
| | Any official explaination for the jarl nerf? I hadn't played him yet but he never looked overboard. | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
|
Temperance
Sergeant
503 Posts
| | 03/29/2008 11:24 AM |
| Posted By Lord_rock on 03/29/2008 11:16 AM
Any official explaination for the jarl nerf? I hadn't played him yet but he never looked overboard.
The old damage output was way too high. Either the followup or the cleave had to go. | |
Champion of the common Flying Monkey (Fez optional)
Peter Lee on the WotC board
BAD WOLF
| |
|
Zyla
Underboss
1186 Posts
| | 03/29/2008 5:49 PM |
| The Jarl was doing 55 damage + Stun or 65 damage+ stun with the Eternal Blade, and the stun is automatic. Which means if it hits a figure once, that figure will take 55 damage and will not be able to escape or move away from the Jarl. Now it only does 35 damage + Stun | |
| |
|