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JugglerVR
Sneak
123 Posts
    
 | | 04/05/2008 11:24 PM |
| Sorry to dredge up this old-ish topic but I've been out of the game and
have just come across the chatter about reprinted DDM minis and I need
to say something...
The DDM department at Wizards is out of its
effing gourd. There are so many problems with the way this transition
to 2.0 is being handled that I don't know where to start.
So I'll start, not at the beginning, but with the worst problem: Duplicate names on new figs.
Apparently,
it's still up for debate as to how this will be handled? Seriously?
This needs to have had a solid answer as soon as the set list was
published. No, sooner. It should have been handled and locked in in the
first development meeting when it was determined that duplicate-named
figures would be included in DDr. I've seen people (identified in some
way or another as WotC reps) stating things like they don't know what
the official policy will be, etc. Holy freeking moly! what a monkeyshow!
Now
I know people are fond of comparing DDM to magic, and other people are
fond of refuting those comparisons because "ddm isn't magic..."
bollocks. It shares enough similarities that we can use one as a loose
analogue for the other. What happens in Magic when a card is reprinted?
It's the SAME CARD. Why? disambiguation. Anyone can use any card from
any printing of magic and it will function as the latest official text.
This allows the designers (who work for the same company as DDM!) to
fix problems with cards as well as bring back older cards that fit with
the new set. Can you imagine what would happen if I played Phage the
Untouchable from Scourge (or whatever set she's from) with Phage the
Untouchable from 10th edition and they had DIFFERENT ABILITIES? utter
pandemonium.
Let's also not forget that WotC has done the reprint
thing in the past. There are (as of my casual findings) 6 figures that
have been reprinted from older sets with the same stats. They are as
follows:
Drow Fighter: Ha -> GoL
Gnoll: Ha -> Ab
Man-at-Arms: Ha -> Ab
Minotaur: Ha -> GoL
Werewolf: Ha -> GoL
Zombie: Ha -> GoL
These figures are great! I can mix my men-at-arms for the cache' of
older figures, but still use the pretty Ab stat cards for all of them.
Totally fine.
There have also been a number of "near-reprints", where the old figure
has some disambiguation tacked on to it to make it a "new" figure. I
don't know the reasoning for this but I suspect it's partly to re-make
a figure that has problems, the most frequent of which seem to be:
difficult to put under command (Hill Giant, Umber Hulk, Carrion
Crawler, etc)
Then there's: Large Fire Elemental: Ha -> DDs
(I must confess to
not know the specifics of why this received new stats instead of just a
new name, and Umber Hulk received the disambiguation tagline "Delver"
in the same set. Perhaps it was a hint of the horrid darkness to come.)
*@*@*@ For those of you skipping ahead (and I seriously hope any WotC
people actually read the whole thing) this is how duplicate fig names
should be handled:
It's the same figure. This will have the following benefits:
Disambiguation (if it says Death Knight, then it's a freeking Death Knight!)
A gesture of friendliness toward the old guard ("why not move over to
2.0, you grumpy geezer? you already own 1/4 of the new set!")
WotC looks like grown-ups. (seriously. this procrastination is
completely unacceptable. if I was the Brand manager over there, heads
would be rolling)
Fewer figures to re-stat in the future (you *are* still planning to restat all the minis like you promised, aren't you?)
Here's what else needs to happen: We need to be able to use any printed
card for our figures. In the past, a figure wasn't legal if it didn't
have an official stat card. Guess what? now my Lich Necromancer is
gathering dust (and is untradeable) because I misplaced his card.
Now that we're able to use DDs and NB cards that we print at home, that
excuse has to be thrown out the window. utterly. Release the DDr stats
in a PDF, too, so I can use my Death Knight in a warband. Do it now.
Don't think about it. Do it. It's not an issue that needs to be thought
over. It's what needs to happen. If home-printed cards are legal, they
need to be legal, and provided, across the board, for all sets.
Nobody's going to steal WotC intellectual property if the DDr stat PDFs
are made available. We'll still need the figures to play. We'll still
spend our money on your product. We might even spend MORE if we know
that there's sufficient SUPPORT.
This brings me to my next point. The stat cards for ALL of the last
sets since Wardrums need to have been released ON THE DAY THAT DDr was
released. You're moving to a split-format game, with Classic and
Vintage (who wants to say, now, that DDM isn't like Magic?). I'm
relatively okay with that; I'm not going to whine because I know what's
healthy for a collectible game like this. Make a format where one full
cycle, from starter set (just after Wardrums) to starter set (Dungeons
of Dread) is legal, BUT make it all legal on the same day! don't make a
format in which we have no idea what's going to be legal when! Think
about these decisions. That's one way that DDM is definitely NOT like
magic; M:TG releases well-thought-out decisions. Sure they waver back
and forth, sometimes on a month-to-month basis, but they don't come out
with half-baked (*edit: "stuff"*) like "there will be two formats, but the first
format will only have a few sets, as often as we can get around to
adding the stat cards, but our tournaments are still worth money, so
bring your game face." WHAAAT? if you're running sanctioned tournament
play, you NEED to release decisions like grown-ups, guys. You just
released your *15th* set! Let's treat this game like it's a real game.
And so we come to my final thoughts. I always said that DDM felt like a
"tacked-on" game. As in, "we've got these figures that are primarily
for (or at least primarily inspired by) another game. I guess we've got
to make up a game for it." Part of this feeling was inspired by the
semi-random feeling to creature abilities (partly due to a small sample
size, but you've got a big space to play with now), and part of it was
the sort of clunky-feeling rules (similarly, Games Workshop seems to be
surly about their paints and brushes. as in, "we've got this minis game
that everyone's addicted to, so i *guess* we've got to provide some way
to paint the damn things, but let's make shitty paint and call it
"official" because we don't really care about that product line")
Well, with 2.0, you've got a chance to treat the game like it should be
treated. It's vetted itself and proved that it can be a game that
people will play. Offer the support that a game like that deserves. | |
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|
Username
Warlord
5557 Posts
| | 04/06/2008 8:16 AM |
| | Where is my rolleyes emoticon? | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
| 
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10252 Posts
United States
| | 04/06/2008 8:43 AM |
| You're a few months late, but that's okay.
I don't really think that the WotC reps are going to pay much attention to this, it's a little heavy on the "I hate you, you're a bunch of morons" side.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
|
vanrulzz
Underboss
2451 Posts
¯\(°_o)/¯
| | 04/06/2008 10:58 AM |
| | *agrees with vreck* | | | |
|
Temperance
Sergeant
502 Posts
| | 04/06/2008 11:54 AM |
| I wasn't there when the set list for 15 was put together, but I suspect at the time the list was made with so many duplicates so allow people to use prior figures, as Wizards was originally not going to redo the stats for all figures. I'm sure the intention at that time was to allow people to play with older figures that had the same name.
Now we'll be redoing stat cards for all the figures, we don't need just have the old figs be usable with new cards. Now it opens up the option to have the same figure at a higher (or lower) level and abilities to match. Except for the exact numbers, the powers and abilities would be pretty much the same, allowing you to choose to play a type of figure at different points. I guess it's a bit like an epic/non epic cards.
That solution also adds a bit of complexity. I think it's more fun, but I haven't decided if I like that complexity over the simple solution of allowing people to play the same stats with different figures. It's the solution that I'm leaning towards, but I really don't need to handle that until the restats for the sets containing those figures are designed. | |
Champion of the common Flying Monkey (Fez optional)
Peter Lee on the WotC board
BAD WOLF
| |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10252 Posts
United States
| |
stephengroy
Underboss
1338 Posts
Tempe AZ Beeyotch
| | 04/06/2008 2:29 PM |
| | Chainmail Updates what? | |
Waiting for Chainmail Equivalencies since 2005
| |
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vanrulzz
Underboss
2451 Posts
¯\(°_o)/¯
| | 04/06/2008 5:05 PM |
| | really stephen i havent seen you make a post without mentioning the chainmail equivalencies... lay off a bit. | | | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5758 Posts
| | 04/06/2008 5:24 PM |
| Posted By Temperance on 04/06/2008 11:54 AM Now we'll be redoing stat cards for all the figures, we don't need just have the old figs be usable with new cards. Now it opens up the option to have the same figure at a higher (or lower) level and abilities to match.
I'd say go for it, just make sure the new cards are obviously different colours, like the epic cards were. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
|
bshugg
Underboss
1809 Posts
| | 04/06/2008 6:36 PM |
| Juggler's tone is a bit harsher than it should be for this board but he makes some very good points:
1. Duplicate names on new figs.
The designers already had done reprints with the same stats and then variant reprints with different names. There is no reason beyond sloppiness to have figures with the same names. Peter's solution does seem like a good fix though. It's more complex for sure but no worse than reprinting stats from a website and making your own cards. The player base is mature enough to handle it.
2. Here's what else needs to happen: We need to be able to use any printed card for our figures.
It's got to be assumed that they create a PDF of the stats before sending to the printer. It's almost no effort to post it once the set is released. If you only show off the skirmish stats there's nothing being given away for free. This would be a win for the community and should be done.
3. Offer the support that a game like that deserves.
We all want to see this, and I think a lot of things could be done for free/cheap. A few more articles online, some organized events, error checking on the cards, a bit more playtesting on figs, and a bit of polishing and the game would really be something amazing.
| |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
|
Bert the Troll
Commander
3831 Posts
Adelaide
| | 04/06/2008 7:26 PM |
| Posted By Temperance on 04/06/2008 11:54 AM I wasn't there when the set list for 15 was put together, but I suspect at the time the list was made with so many duplicates so allow people to use prior figures, as Wizards was originally not going to redo the stats for all figures. I'm sure the intention at that time was to allow people to play with older figures that had the same name.
Thats an interesting insight into the process - Thanks. | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: Sometimes the road less traveled is less traveled for a reason. ~ Seinfeld
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7067 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/06/2008 7:28 PM |
| A few thoughts. One, I do agree on the duplicate bit. However, given the changes since the original design (i.e. complete restatting) it makes teir problem different. Kudos to Peter for letting us know what happened there. I certainly appreciate it. Two, I highly doubt you actually understand exactly what goes on at WotCas far as actual design and workloads. furthrmore, your tone was extremely disrespectful, and I consider it lucky any WotC staff bothered to reply. Vrecknidj nailed it on the head, as far as I'm concerned, regarding this. | |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
Wolfgang
Commander
2803 Posts
Milton, Ontario Canada
| | 04/06/2008 7:30 PM |
| *agrees with vreck*
Me also | |
Proud member since March 26 2005
Champion of the SIVAK DRACONIAN
Joke champion of the epic sage!
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Pedro
Commander
3922 Posts
Czech Republic
| | 04/07/2008 4:50 AM |
| So, will it be like: You may take any Death Knight released and play it with any stat card, or you need to have the apropriate release of the mini to play that one card?
| |
2007 & 2008 Czech Republic Champion
2008 Czech Republic's Player of the Year
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Next Icon Called Shot: Baldur's Gate pack - Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc (and BOO!), Imoen, Xan, Sarevok...
Against the Giants Called Shot: Phoenix (/no luck)
Demonweb Called Shot: Yagnoloth (I like demons!)
Feywild Called Shot:
Starter 2009 Called Shot: | |
|
Temperance
Sergeant
502 Posts
| | 04/07/2008 9:05 AM |
| | If I have different stats for the same named creature, you'd need to have the correct miniature to play it. You couldn't use the same figure to play both versions. This is to keep the actual miniature as a reminder for if it's the high powered or low powered version. | |
Champion of the common Flying Monkey (Fez optional)
Peter Lee on the WotC board
BAD WOLF
| |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7067 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/07/2008 9:23 AM |
| That's a good idea, so I don't have to keep checking the stat card, or get warband registration shenanigans.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
guacamole
Sneak
133 Posts
| | 04/07/2008 9:55 AM |
| | Using similar figs to represent different stat lines is just not a problem in the vast majority of war games. The reason why collectible games don't allow you to do this is because they want you to buy additional product, nothing more. | |
Champion of the Froghemoth
Knight of Beholder-Kin
Squire of Low-Level uniques | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7067 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/07/2008 11:11 AM |
| I completely disagree.
You're saying I could have 2 of the exact same fig, and have two different sets of stats for each in my warband.
How would you designate which is which? It could easily get confusing, and lead to accusations of cheating. Heck, even with multiple figures of the same stats, you need to differentiate them. Now, you want to have different stats? the easiest way to differentiate them is to have one set of stats for each figure.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
guacamole
Sneak
133 Posts
| | 04/07/2008 11:33 AM |
| "I completely disagree."
You disagree with what exactly? That using similar figs to represent different stat lines is not a problem in the vast majority of war games? :shrug: I don't know what to tell you other than you need to play different games. Lots of games allow players a "counts as" rule that lets you differentiate between similar figures with different stat lines or different figs with similar stat lines. Mordheim and Combat Zone are two examples of such games that spring immediately to mind. In Descent, there are frequent circumstances where you use alternate figures to represent different stat lines. There is typically some marker for differentiating figures, but is that really a problem considering the explosion of markers that are already used in war games?
Do you disagree that the principle decision making method for CMG is profit motive? Do you mean to assert that while rarity, collectibility, and tier are all methods used to sell more product, declaring proxies and cardless figures illegal are not methods to do so?
"the easiest way to..."
If I wanted to always do things the easiest way, I would probably not play war games or role playing games as my leisure activity of choice.
fwiw
guaca. | |
Champion of the Froghemoth
Knight of Beholder-Kin
Squire of Low-Level uniques | |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10252 Posts
United States
| | 04/07/2008 11:37 AM |
| Posted By Temperance on 04/06/2008 11:54 AM Now we'll be redoing stat cards for all the figures, we don't need just have the old figs be usable with new cards. Now it opens up the option to have the same figure at a higher (or lower) level and abilities to match. Except for the exact numbers, the powers and abilities would be pretty much the same, allowing you to choose to play a type of figure at different points. I guess it's a bit like an epic/non epic cards.
But, to the point at hand, there are some pieces, like the Elf Ranger, that, I think, would be really great if left the same. In other words, I'd be quite happy if the Harbinger piece had the same stats as the Dungeons of Dread piece. The stats are quite good, the piece is eminently playable, and this would give owners of the original piece an opportunity to both get some use out of the pieces and mix up the pieces played at a game (as this is a piece where running more than one is quite reasonable). The problem I see with this is that by the time Harbinger gets re-statted, Dungeons of Dread might be on its way out of Standard play, and that would be a shame for the players who intend to stick with Standard.
I think the same can be said for pieces that might not get as much play, but are also Commons, and still might receive some play: the Orc Raider, for instance.
Other pieces, such as the Death Knight, might be better with variable stats. It's a rare, and, as such, people might want to be able to have the two rares work together. It might be interesting to see a non-Champion Death Knight, or a Death Knight that's an evil Undead that's not part of the Borderlands faction (but, then, of course, could be brought in by the other one).
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a case-by-case approach. If two Wyverns turn out to have the same stats, but two Griffons do not (for example), so be it.
Dave
| |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5758 Posts
| | 04/07/2008 11:53 AM |
| Posted By Temperance on 04/07/2008 9:05 AM
If I have different stats for the same named creature, you'd need to have the correct miniature to play it. You couldn't use the same figure to play both versions. This is to keep the actual miniature as a reminder for if it's the high powered or low powered version. ehm, this could get ugly. If a really old and hard to get figure becomes tier 1... | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7067 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/07/2008 11:55 AM |
| I diagree with both points. The whole post, pretty much.
So now, you have markers on the table, which pertain to specific markers on specific cards? Also, I don't play most of Miniature wargames anymore, because of issues like this. "I know this guy is a soldier piece, but he's actaully using sergeant stats, so I have this green poker chip underneath him to designate that. No, the red poker ship designates the mini I'm using as a lieutenant now." Actual conversation. I'd liek to look over, see a Deathknell Death Knight, and know what it's stats are, not having to ask which set of stats you're using. Considering it's also a timed game, adding additional complication and questions seems to be counter to the point of finishing fairly in time.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7067 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/07/2008 11:59 AM |
| Posted By greyhaze on 04/07/2008 11:53 AM Posted By Temperance on 04/07/2008 9:05 AM
If I have different stats for the same named creature, you'd need to have the correct miniature to play it. You couldn't use the same figure to play both versions. This is to keep the actual miniature as a reminder for if it's the high powered or low powered version. ehm, this could get ugly. If a really old and hard to get figure becomes tier 1...
Not any different than current rules. That's why they have multiple formats. If, for instance, Drider Sorcerer becomes awesome in 2.0, and you don't want to get one, play Standard. It's no different than Black Lotus in M:tG. Or, perhaps they'll ban it (or restat it, if capable)
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5758 Posts
| | 04/07/2008 1:43 PM |
| | Yeh, I guess that's fine. Just don't like locking out the new kids. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
| Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7067 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/07/2008 2:18 PM |
| Well, if necessary, you could just reprint a piece. That's what i thought should havebeen done, if it has the EXACT same name, they should have the EXACT same stats.
| |
Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
"Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen." | |
|
Temperance
Sergeant
502 Posts
| | 04/07/2008 2:46 PM |
| | A better plan is to redo the piece with a slight "color change". Instead of "Orc Champion", make a "Gnoll Champion" that has very similar powers. | |
Champion of the common Flying Monkey (Fez optional)
Peter Lee on the WotC board
BAD WOLF
| |
|
guacamole
Sneak
133 Posts
| | 04/07/2008 6:15 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 04/07/2008 11:55 AM
I diagree with both points. The whole post, pretty much.
So now, you have markers on the table, which pertain to specific markers on specific cards? Also, I don't play most of Miniature wargames anymore, because of issues like this. "I know this guy is a soldier piece, but he's actaully using sergeant stats, so I have this green poker chip underneath him to designate that. No, the red poker ship designates the mini I'm using as a lieutenant now." Actual conversation. I'd liek to look over, see a Deathknell Death Knight, and know what it's stats are, not having to ask which set of stats you're using. Considering it's also a timed game, adding additional complication and questions seems to be counter to the point of finishing fairly in time.
I guess I just don't see how that is any more difficult than using two of the same figure and using markers to differentiate who has used what one use ability or taken what damage. We regularly use little chits or sets of 10 sided dice to show damage, rubber bands to identify identitcal figs, etc.-- all of those are devices we add to the game to make it less confusing. The only game I've seen where this wasn't a problem were the clix-games. Nevertheless, you still have to mark actions. As far as I can tell it's pretty much par for the course unless you play computer games and
I've never run into a problem with a timed game not being finished because of questions about markers once both players are competent with the rules.
| |
Champion of the Froghemoth
Knight of Beholder-Kin
Squire of Low-Level uniques | |
|
Username
Warlord
5557 Posts
| | 04/07/2008 9:38 PM |
| Posted By Temperance on 04/07/2008 2:46 PM
A better plan is to redo the piece with a slight "color change". Instead of "Orc Champion", make a "Gnoll Champion" that has very similar powers.
I like it. Better yet, how about a Uc "Hobgoblin Champion?"
(and some noncombatants!!!)
| |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
|
jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 04/07/2008 9:51 PM |
| Peter - I'm confused. Have you not begun to restat Unhallowed yet? The first instance of two figures with the same name and different stats occurs in Unhallowed / Basic 08 - Tiefling Warlock. In UH, it is a 25 point piece. In the starter it is 11 points. Given the scheduyle of release, I'd have thought you'd be well on the way to restating this guy by now... | |
Champion of Meepo _*_ Myztek on the Wizards Boards. _*_ (2206 DDM on 03/06/06)
Please note: The use of the  indicates an attempt at humor ... often a bad attempt.
BAD EBAY SELLERS LIST (CLICK HERE): AVOID AT ALL COSTS
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JugglerVR
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 04/08/2008 1:22 AM |
| Wow, lots of replies. I wasn't getting pinged on reply so i was startled to find a big discussion on my return.
@ All, I know my post was a bit vitriolic. However, I also have experience with game reps being good at taking the meat out of an angry post and measuring the vitriol as the level of urgency or insistence that the matter is presented with. Temperance confirmed my suspicion, as his replies have been constructive, most likely because he saw the constructive aspects of my post (and is probably used to dealing with more abuse and less meat from other posters elsewhere).
@ Temperence, you said "I really don't need to handle that until the restats for the sets containing those figures are designed." but my whole point is that by not handling it now, you're alienating players who have those figures but don't know if they want to commit to the new ruleset. unless I misinterpreted you. Also, it doesn't say in your sig; what capacity do you serve at WotC (people seem to treat you as though you're a rep)?
Regarding differing powered cards for different figures, I agree that this could be interesting, but remember, we're the upper echelon of complexity-loving players. We saw nothing wrong with the diagonal-movement rules, but they got axed for (i can only assume) accessibility to the masses. It's not us that this duplicate-figure thing hoses the most. It's the casual player. WotC learned with Magic that they need to build in the complexity for the "Spikes" and the streamlined and intuitive rules and policies for the casual player (the "Timmies").
I know the base-printed point cost would be different between Death Knights of different sets, but come on, the faction will be different anyway. Nobody squints at the bases when they tally up their warband cost; they use cards or a generator.
Imagine the problems that will present themselves, additionally, when a casual player buys some death knights on eBay only to find that they're not the ones that are legal in the standard format. How many players do DDM and Magic share? How confusing is it going to be for this new player, who may be familiar with saner policies, to realize that the figures he bought aren't legal in the format hosted by the local shop?
@ jgsugden, are there more than one distro for the basic set? the one i bought doesn't have a tiefling... | |
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Username
Warlord
5557 Posts
| | 04/08/2008 5:09 AM |
| Have you not begun to restat Unhallowed yet? The first instance of two figures with the same name and different stats occurs in Unhallowed / Basic 08 - Tiefling Warlock. In UH, it is a 25 point piece. In the starter it is 11 points. Given the scheduyle of release, I'd have thought you'd be well on the way to restating this guy by now...
I think the Elf Warlock is in the starter for 11 points, but the Tiefling Warlock is in DoD2 for 27 points. | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
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greyhaze
Warlord
5758 Posts
| | 04/08/2008 6:16 AM |
| Posted By JugglerVR on 04/08/2008 1:22 AM
Also, it doesn't say in your sig; what capacity do you serve at WotC (people seem to treat you as though you're a rep)?
Long time board member and new wotc ddm designer (and generally a pretty cool/tempered guy).
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Username
Warlord
5557 Posts
| | 04/08/2008 7:47 AM |
| I really, really don't see what the big deal is. Of all the minis with the same name, I'm betting the new minis are more playable. Why would you want to play the old one if the new one is better?
Also, from what I understand, DCI floor rules say that the base of the mini has to match the info on the card being used (mini name, set, rarity, etc). | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
Champion of Lhesh Haruuc Shaarat'kor | |
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Llarbal
Skirmisher
37 Posts
| | 04/08/2008 8:58 AM |
| Posted By Temperance on 04/07/2008 2:46 PM
A better plan is to redo the piece with a slight "color change". Instead of "Orc Champion", make a "Gnoll Champion" that has very similar powers.
The more I think about it, the more I like it. In fact, an excellent idea! newer players can compete with older players who do have all the allstars*, and can after gathering a sizable collection also compete in vintage. Maybe not at the exact same level, but if they're good players they have a chance, which means the format will have a better chance (i.e. also newer players).
I'm assuming here that the allstars will be good, they might also be slightly below competitive level to allow newer players without any allstars to compete. | |
Proud member of the Bearded Devils | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 04/08/2008 9:53 AM |
| Posted By Username on 04/08/2008 5:09 AM Have you not begun to restat Unhallowed yet? The first instance of two figures with the same name and different stats occurs in Unhallowed / Basic 08 - Tiefling Warlock. In UH, it is a 25 point piece. In the starter it is 11 points. Given the scheduyle of release, I'd have thought you'd be well on the way to restating this guy by now...
I think the Elf Warlock is in the starter for 11 points, but the Tiefling Warlock is in DoD2 for 27 points.
I did begin my post by saying I was confused... | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7067 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 04/08/2008 10:38 AM |
| Posted By Username on 04/08/2008 7:47 AM
I really, really don't see what the big deal is. Of all the minis with the same name, I'm betting the new minis are more playable. Why would you want to play the old one if the new one is better?
Also, from what I understand, DCI floor rules say that the base of the mini has to match the info on the card being used (mini name, set, rarity, etc).
I knew there was a rule for that. Of course, the rule could be changed, but frankly, I find this way far easier and more fair to existing collectors.
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JugglerVR
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 04/08/2008 12:48 PM |
| Posted By Username on 04/08/2008 7:47 AM
I really, really don't see what the big deal is. Of all the minis with the same name, I'm betting the new minis are more playable. Why would you want to play the old one if the new one is better?
Um. I don't want to play with the older STATS. I want the older figures with the same name to act like the newer figures with the same name, as they have in the past, as Magic does, because it's the only way that makes sense.
I want to use my 2 hook horrors and death knight now without having to re-buy them or buy lots of DuD to start playing again.
Posted By Username on 04/08/2008 7:47 AM
Also, from what I understand, DCI floor rules say that the base of the mini has to match the info on the card being used (mini name, set, rarity, etc).
Well, that's going to be fscked soon on the "etc" side when the faction won't match, so why not solve the problem (and other problems) now with one stroke of a pen instead of waiting for when it becomes a problem?
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10252 Posts
United States
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JugglerVR
Sneak
123 Posts
| | 04/08/2008 3:06 PM |
| Posted By Vrecknidj on 04/08/2008 1:45 PM Posted By JugglerVR on 04/08/2008 12:48 PM "fscked"?
Dave
deliberately misspelled profanity
edit: don't you read slashdot.org? ;) | |
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Lead Moderator
LCS
Underboss
1859 Posts
| | 04/08/2008 11:20 PM |
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Deliberately misspelled profanity is still profanity, and it's not acceptable here.
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