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stephengroy
Underboss
1354 Posts
    
Tempe AZ Beeyotch
 | | 06/02/2008 5:02 PM |
| Posted By Raland on 06/02/2008 4:48 PM
Don't see how "coast" rhymes with "nazi
WotC (WOT-tzi) | |
Waiting for Chainmail Equivalencies since 2005
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stephengroy
Underboss
1354 Posts
Tempe AZ Beeyotch
| | 06/02/2008 5:04 PM |
| Posted By Bert the Troll on 06/02/2008 4:57 PM
I don't spend a lot of time looking at foreign washing machine brands MaytagFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Former Headquarters of the Maytag Corporation, Newton, Iowa  Antique Maytag washing machine. Maytag Corporation was a $4.7 billion home and commercial appliance company, headquartered in Newton, Iowa from 1893-2006. With approximately 18,000 employees worldwide, it made and sold appliances. The Whirlpool Corp. completed its acquisition of Maytag on April 1, 2006. In May 2006, Whirlpool announced plans to close the former Maytag headquarters office in Newton, as well as laundry manufacturing plants in Newton, Iowa, Herrin, Illinois and Searcy, Arkansas by 2007. Following the Maytag closure, all administration will be in Whirlpool's headquarters in Benton Harbor, Michigan. The Maytag name will still be used on rebranded Whirlpool appliances, however most Maytag employees will be terminated, as some were offered jobs in Benton Harbor. The board of directors of Maytag and CEO (a former Whirlpool executive), all received five years severance pay.[citation
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Waiting for Chainmail Equivalencies since 2005
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3840 Posts
Adelaide
| | 06/02/2008 5:06 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 06/02/2008 4:57 PM
Ah, first things first.
Maytag is an appliance company. Basically, the implication is that no one cares who designs their dishwasher or refrigerator. Hope that clears that up.
On to the more cogent topic. reading that post, it seems that Steve may have some issues. It doesn't seem like the kind of friend I would hang out with. It appears there's a bit of rage or P/A on his own part.
Taken in a vacuum, I could have easily been accepting of what could easily have been a singular, jocular comment. Given further postings (which I was unaware of) I can see the true intent behind that comment was far darker. While I will not rescind my opinion on the possibility of it, the truth of the matter is, it was whiolly unprofessional and unfriendly. That he may or may not have beenintending it towards someone else is irrelevant. This is a failure of customer service.
That being said, I'm nt saying that steve is a bad guy, or even that anything bad shoudl happen to him 9that's for WotC to decide) However, I am disturbed by this dark revelation on his opinions on some of the customer base.
Thanks. I wonder if there is anyone out there who shops for microwaves by designer ....
To me when Shoe came on and posted 'soon' that was a friendly and sufficent answer. That would be another example of proffessional/friendly coexisting.
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"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "Does this rag smell like chloroform to you?"
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 06/02/2008 5:12 PM |
| | "In your face" was much less volatile than half of the stuff posted on that thread. | |
Owner of The Original Rust Monsters!
DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60
Dreamblade: All | |
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 06/02/2008 5:12 PM |
| | "In your face" was much less volatile than half of the stuff posted on that thread. | |
Owner of The Original Rust Monsters!
DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60
Dreamblade: All | |
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stephengroy
Underboss
1354 Posts
Tempe AZ Beeyotch
| | 06/02/2008 5:15 PM |
| You mean like where that guy mantioned crapping inna right toilet, and I sarkily said that he's floating in there also?
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Waiting for Chainmail Equivalencies since 2005
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 06/02/2008 5:32 PM |
| Ah, the joys of the internet!
But seriously, people need to take a few deep breaths and calm down. | |
Owner of The Original Rust Monsters!
DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60
Dreamblade: All | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3840 Posts
Adelaide
| | 06/02/2008 5:36 PM |
| Posted By Ridureyu on 06/02/2008 5:12 PM
"In your face" was much less volatile than half of the stuff posted on that thread.
It wasn't as rude as a lot of what was said in that thread. Coming from a WoTC employee it was much more volatile than anything else posted. (imo of course). | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "Does this rag smell like chloroform to you?"
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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stephengroy
Underboss
1354 Posts
Tempe AZ Beeyotch
| | 06/02/2008 5:45 PM |
| Posted By Ridureyu on 06/02/2008 5:32 PM
blah blah Rust Monsterrs
I have one and a bulette in the same pack, but cannot remember where I got them.
Can you?
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Waiting for Chainmail Equivalencies since 2005
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Ridureyu
Underboss
1622 Posts
| | 06/02/2008 5:48 PM |
| | Yeah, I can. Sort of. I was a little kid, and my parents got me a bunch of little dinosaurs to go with my small plastic animals. I liked the weird "dinosaurs" so much that I kept them, including the Rust Monsters. I also have a Bulette from that pack, too. My short-term memory is hilariously bad at times (What's your name? What day did I do that?), but my long-term memory is excellent. | |
Owner of The Original Rust Monsters!
DDM: Harbinger: 76/80 Dragoneye: 60/60 Archfiends: 56/60 GoL: 72/72 Aberrations: 60/60 Deathknell: 60/60 Angelfire: 60/60 Underdark: 60/60 War Drums: 60/60 War of the Dragon Queen: 60/60 Blood War: 60/60, Unhallowed: 60/60 Night Below: 60/60 Desert of Desolation: 60/60 Dungeons of Dread: 60/60 Against the Giants: 60/60
Dreamblade: All | |
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Temperance
Sergeant
502 Posts
| | 06/02/2008 6:28 PM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 06/02/2008 4:57 PM
On to the more cogent topic. reading that post, it seems that Steve may have some issues. It doesn't seem like the kind of friend I would hang out with. It appears there's a bit of rage or P/A on his own part.
Proving that text is a horrible means to communicate. When I read it, I can hear his voice say it in a way that is in jest. I certainly have an advantage because I now know him in person.
What I see as a flip commant you view as words from a man with issues. The topic of this thread is the lack of communication on my/WotC's part; do you see why? Do you blame me? Please - PLEASE - look at some of the things said from the other point of view, I certainly try to.
What the general reaction of this will do to me is make me watch what I type far more than I already do. I currently post only about 1/2 of the posts that I write up -- the others I just close without saving. I'll probably cancel 2/3rds or 3/4rds of my posts now.
(Normally, this is exactly the type of post I type up and delete without posting.) | |
Champion of the common Flying Monkey (Fez optional)
Peter Lee on the WotC board
BAD WOLF
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Stumanchu
Sneak
68 Posts
Cen-Cal
| | 06/02/2008 7:14 PM |
| | I'm happy. | |
Hey, let's get some tacos. | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6614 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/02/2008 9:20 PM |
| Temperance,
I am genuinely interested in knowing if WotC anticipated this much backlash about 4e, or if they simply assumed that there would be some minor loud objections and then people would move on? The reason I ask is that I have not yet seen any representative of WotC genuinely acknowledge those who are not liking 4e at all, and show any understanding of that. Everything I have seen has been expressed interest in 4e and dismissal of any objections. This is turning me off further support of WotC in a very strong way.
I am not asking these questions to make you or others at WotC feel bad. I have really liked most of what had occurred previous to last year's GenCon, and have not liked much of what has occurred then or after. I have never spent anything close to what I have spent on WotC products than from any other hobby or personal interest.
Thanks,
Corim Danex | |
"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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paladin72
Sneak
87 Posts
| | 06/02/2008 10:08 PM |
| Posted By Corim Danex on 06/02/2008 9:20 PM
Temperance,
I am genuinely interested in knowing if WotC anticipated this much backlash about 4e, or if they simply assumed that there would be some minor loud objections and then people would move on? The reason I ask is that I have not yet seen any representative of WotC genuinely acknowledge those who are not liking 4e at all, and show any understanding of that. Everything I have seen has been expressed interest in 4e and dismissal of any objections. This is turning me off further support of WotC in a very strong way.
I am not asking these questions to make you or others at WotC feel bad. I have really liked most of what had occurred previous to last year's GenCon, and have not liked much of what has occurred then or after. I have never spent anything close to what I have spent on WotC products than from any other hobby or personal interest.
Thanks,
Corim Danex
I feel much the same way.
Before last August I thought WOTC could do no wrong. Aside from an occasional bad sculpt that didn't meet my expectations I was happy.
Before then I didn't see many negative attitudes on the boards either.
Things really could have been handled better so as to not alienate a portion of the loyal fanbase whether small or large.
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“There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.” | |
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Temperance
Sergeant
502 Posts
| | 06/02/2008 10:20 PM |
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Change will turn off a segment of any audience and it's impossible to please everyone. You probably have enough 3e and 3.5e product to play for the rest of your life. Why buy any more?
My answer is that it's a better game. Do I agree with all the changes? Of course not. Once I know the reason, though, the changes usually make sense. For example -- take the Drider. The drider are no longer the cursed of lolth, but "driders are servants of Lolth gifted with a semblance of their god’s grotesque form." I can here some of you saying, "that's retarded!" in your head -- It also took me by surprise. Why make such a change? After thinking about it, it makes sense. I answer that with a question - does it honestly make sense to have a spider god warp a failed Drow into a spider-like form as a punishment?
As for an anti-4e backlash, I don't personally see the backlash as being very big. I have seen some particularly vocal individuals repeatedly slamming it, but not some massive community amount. If that were the case, I would guess (and this is me, not the voice of WotC) that more companies would be continuing to publish 3rd edition work. We're simply NOT going to please everyone. Hopefully, we bring back or introduce more people to the game than we lose.
Note that the 4th edition gift set is currently ranked #3 on Amazon. Does this sound like a lot of backlash? | |
Champion of the common Flying Monkey (Fez optional)
Peter Lee on the WotC board
BAD WOLF
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3840 Posts
Adelaide
| | 06/02/2008 10:46 PM |
| Posted By Temperance on 06/02/2008 6:28 PM Posted By Teflon Jeff on 06/02/2008 4:57 PM
On to the more cogent topic. reading that post, it seems that Steve may have some issues. It doesn't seem like the kind of friend I would hang out with. It appears there's a bit of rage or P/A on his own part.
Proving that text is a horrible means to communicate. When I read it, I can hear his voice say it in a way that is in jest. I certainly have an advantage because I now know him in person. What I see as a flip commant you view as words from a man with issues. The topic of this thread is the lack of communication on my/WotC's part; do you see why? Do you blame me? Please - PLEASE - look at some of the things said from the other point of view, I certainly try to. What the general reaction of this will do to me is make me watch what I type far more than I already do. I currently post only about 1/2 of the posts that I write up -- the others I just close without saving. I'll probably cancel 2/3rds or 3/4rds of my posts now. (Normally, this is exactly the type of post I type up and delete without posting.)
I'm sorry Peter, as much as I agree about text potentially being a bad medium to communicate, with all the potential of getting it wrong, I just don't see any ways Steve's comments/blog can be taken as professional or friendly. It certainly was needless and didn't do much other than harm, which imo should of been self obvious. As an acknowlgedment of mistake type thing it stunk.
And sometimes, whether a WoTC or 'normal' board member, you are better off not posting. (advice I should follow myself given my too many posts in this thread).
(and just as an aside though, text can also be a great way of communicating)
~
I'm not sure that reducing posting helps the overall situation. Like I said, shoe's 'soon' should of been good enough imo. If Shoe was prolifically posting it may of been taken better. As the only word in a long while, it gets a harsher scrutiny imo. Ditto for steve, if he posted enough non negatives, then maybe people would realise its his sence of humor. (not that I have any personal desire for him post more).
As a whole, I think the DDM team do wonderfully well at discussion. Sometimes I think the cone of silence gets in the way (eg I wonder if there would of been such a clamour to restat every mini if it was known that it was planed to use old minis with same name as new minis... ) but especially in past there has been great levels of two way conversations.
Now, my impression is that many WoTC team are finding the 'heat' too much, or using the minority of posters who harass rather than discuss as a reason/excuse not to post, which feeds back into itself.
There is a tad of disgruntlement about WoTC at the moment which doesn't help much, as even innocent things gets taken the wrong way.
You probably have enough 3e and 3.5e product to play for the rest of your life. Why buy any more?
That's crazy talk. ;)
I answer that with a question - does it honestly make sense to have a spider god warp a failed Drow into a spider-like form as a punishment?
Meh - fluff imo can be made to make sense no matter what. To me thats the easy bit - after the fact rationalisation.
Note that the 4th edition gift set is currently ranked #3 on Amazon. Does this sound like a lot of backlash?
Although I think 4th will be a success, didnt the iconic dragons all make it to amazon's top 5 list at somepoint? | |
"Mutton yesterday, mutton today, and blimey, if it don't look like mutton again tomorrer." Bert the Troll - The Hobbit
Semi-Secret sig business: "Does this rag smell like chloroform to you?"
Champion of Epic Lolth, Orcus, & Demogorgon and bring us Asmodeus! | |
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Crisisman
Warrior
336 Posts
Kent, WA
| | 06/02/2008 10:53 PM |
| I just want to pipe in with an example, from my D&D group, of just how bad WOTC is managing things with 4e.
6 months ago, when the 4e news was fresh and nobody knew how it would all be handled, our group discussed our long term plans and whether we would migrate from 3.5 to 4.0. Of the 8 members of our group, 3 were excited about moving forward and giving 4.0 a try. The other 5 were a mix of neutral and stick with what we know opinions. Continued positive information would very likely have brought the majority of our group in favor of migrating to the new version.
Last week our group revisited the discussion, as our current 3.5 campaign is near it's end. What has changed? Not 1 member of our group proposed migrating to 4th edition. In fact, we're going to completely leave D&D for a few months and try something completely different just to get our perspective back.(we'll be playing GURPS) After a few months we'll decide whether to return to D&D at all.
6 months of WOTC and 4th edition news has completely turned the group away from 4th, and potentially from D&D altogether. I would not have thought it possible. Perhaps some time in GURPS will remind us just how good 3.5 is and we'll happily return to it. Perhaps not. We'll know in a few months. | |
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| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
5809 Posts
| | 06/02/2008 11:04 PM |
| Posted By Temperance on 06/02/2008 6:28 PM
I'll probably cancel 2/3rds or 3/4rds of my posts now.
omg omg omg, 3/4rds! ;)
About the Drider thing, I 100% AGREE. See, I'm not all hate and loathing. :) | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Demon Web, Darkenbeast in Feywild. | |
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Temperance
Sergeant
502 Posts
| | 06/02/2008 11:08 PM |
| | it's pronounced "three fjords". | |
Champion of the common Flying Monkey (Fez optional)
Peter Lee on the WotC board
BAD WOLF
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paladin72
Sneak
87 Posts
| | 06/02/2008 11:10 PM |
| Posted By Temperance on 06/02/2008 10:20 PM
Note that the 4th edition gift set is currently ranked #3 on Amazon. Does this sound like a lot of backlash? I honestly wouldn't put much weight in this considering it is being sold for nearly half price.
I would be more interested in seeing how it is doing at LGS's.
The core books should do well. It's what sells afterwards that is going to tell the tale.
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“There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.” | |
| Knight of Argenis
Corim Danex
Warlord
6614 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/02/2008 11:15 PM |
| Posted By Temperance on 06/02/2008 11:08 PM
it's pronounced "three fjords".
lol...nice.
I do appreciate very much that you responded to my inquiry.
Incidentally, you did minimize what negativity you have observed, just like I was talking about.
I don't know many people in my area that like the idea of 4e. I know two WotC delegates who are supportive, some shop people, and maybe one other person. I know many more RPGers that just don't like 4e and aren't interested.
About how much 3.x stuff I have, no, I was happily purchasing away more adventures and books and minis, and it is only the onset of 4e that is stopping that spending enthusiasm in its tracks.
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"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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stephengroy
Underboss
1354 Posts
Tempe AZ Beeyotch
| | 06/02/2008 11:27 PM |
| Posted By Corim Danex on 06/02/2008 9:20 PM
Temperance,
I am genuinely interested in knowing if WotC anticipated this much backlash about 4e, or if they simply assumed that there would be some minor loud objections and then people would move on? The reason I ask is that I have not yet seen any representative of WotC genuinely acknowledge those who are not liking 4e at all, and show any understanding of that. Everything I have seen has been expressed interest in 4e and dismissal of any objections. This is turning me off further support of WotC in a very strong way.
I am not asking these questions to make you or others at WotC feel bad. I have really liked most of what had occurred previous to last year's GenCon, and have not liked much of what has occurred then or after. I have never spent anything close to what I have spent on WotC products than from any other hobby or personal interest.
Thanks,
Corim Danex I spent way more on TSR and Ral Partha products. Does that still count?
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Waiting for Chainmail Equivalencies since 2005
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1788 Posts
Portland OR
| | 06/02/2008 11:38 PM |
| all this seriousness and no one thought my product line crossover about nerfbats.
Coast does not rhyme with WOTC... But if you say WOTC like "whot-see" it does...
Continue with your WOtC discontent and ignore my bad jokes just long enough to file your letter of complaint.
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Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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warchanter
Warrior
347 Posts
Italy
| | 06/03/2008 1:58 AM |
| Posted By Temperance on 06/02/2008 10:20 PM
Change will turn off a segment of any audience and it's impossible to please everyone. You probably have enough 3e and 3.5e product to play for the rest of your life. Why buy any more?
My answer is that it's a better game. Do I agree with all the changes? Of course not. Once I know the reason, though, the changes usually make sense. For example -- take the Drider. The drider are no longer the cursed of lolth, but "driders are servants of Lolth gifted with a semblance of their god’s grotesque form." I can here some of you saying, "that's retarded!" in your head -- It also took me by surprise. Why make such a change? After thinking about it, it makes sense. I answer that with a question - does it honestly make sense to have a spider god warp a failed Drow into a spider-like form as a punishment?
As for an anti-4e backlash, I don't personally see the backlash as being very big. I have seen some particularly vocal individuals repeatedly slamming it, but not some massive community amount. If that were the case, I would guess (and this is me, not the voice of WotC) that more companies would be continuing to publish 3rd edition work. We're simply NOT going to please everyone. Hopefully, we bring back or introduce more people to the game than we lose.
Note that the 4th edition gift set is currently ranked #3 on Amazon. Does this sound like a lot of backlash?
I'll copy and past what I wrote on the official board.
"I wish the official site could become a venue where I can finally get
up-to-date, solid information on what's going on (information on the
progress of the various DDM projects like old sets restatting,
equivalencies - even chainmail ones, even if only to tell me once and
for all "look, we don't have enough resources to do that/are not
interested. We are really sorry, but that won't happen").
I'd like to see a release plan (it doesn't matter if it is precise,
just what plan it is) posted or at least progress on it on a regular
basis (say, once a month IE). I'd like to find all the information I
need there, on the official site.
I'd like you to communicate things in clearer terms or at least to hear
how things are going. Not that this hasn't been done before, mind you
(P. Lee is a perfect example of this. It's just one of the names), but
I'd like this dialogue to increase. Right now I feel I'm left a little
bit out in the dark and that things have not been handled too well in
several occasions (announcements, organization, QC problems, etc.).
Sometimes this is due to lack of/bad communication.
I'd like not to get "in your face" remarks if I'm complaining about
something. It may have been said in friendly terms, but that particular
phrase was maybe a little too much coming from your side in a moment
like that.
I'm sure these are problems that can be solved (even if this is not the
first time the problem arises), so this is my two cents on possible
solutions for the future.
Take this not only as a negative comment, but also as an encouragement to do better.
Good work."
I personally don't like the whole 4E concept, but that's my problem (so I will stick to 3.5. As you said - and I agree - I've got more books than I'll ever need - also counting 2E ones).
And thanks for posting.
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Nexxstalker on WoTC Boards | |
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kyrin
Commander
3152 Posts
| | 06/03/2008 5:26 AM |
| Posted By Temperance on 06/02/2008 10:20 PM
I answer that with a question - does it honestly make sense to have a spider god warp a failed Drow into a spider-like form as a punishment? Um... yeah. Since the Drow are obsessed with physical perfection, the hybrid form of the Drider would be truly abominable to them. They are half-spider, half-Drow, trapped between the two forms, never whole, always incomplete. That would be absolute hell for a Drow. And, as I recall, Lolth is CHAOTIC EVIL, and can appreciate irony.
To take a Real-World (TM) example, you may worship Ganesh, but that don't mean you want an elephant head.
Besides, the Drow turned to Lolth out of desperation, as they were starving in the Underdark. They'd turn on her in a minute, as many of them have. They are using each other. Driders are a reminder from Lolth to the Drow: "I own you. You are mine."
Seems like not just the game mechanics, but the fluff are being "simplified" in 4E. Pity, I like subtlety and nuance myself. Another example is in one of those preview books, it was said that the Blood War was 86ed because there was no good way to get PCs involved in it. This after WotC published TWO BOOKS demonstrating how to do just that...
Is 4E a simpler game? Probably, although we'll see how simple it is a few splatbooks down the road. Is it a faster game? Not in any demo I've been through, but perhaps familiarity will help with that. Is it a better game? Maybe it is for you, Peter, and for your sake, I hope it is for a lotta people. But it isn't for me, or for my players.
JIM
aka kyrin
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My Have/Want List <-|-|->My Trades and References 1 <-|-|->My Trades and References 2
Pronounce "Drow" like "crow"! Viva la Revolution! We Shall Overcome!
Vindicated Champion of the Stirge! Vindicated Champion of the Githyanki Knight on Red Dragon!!
Vindicated Champion of the Androsphinx! | |
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prchamb
Warrior
220 Posts
Charlotte, NC
| | 06/03/2008 7:48 AM |
| Posted By Corim Danex on 06/02/2008 9:20 PM
The reason I ask is that I have not yet seen any representative of WotC genuinely acknowledge those who are not liking 4e at all, and show any understanding of that. Everything I have seen has been expressed interest in 4e and dismissal of any objections. This is turning me off further support of WotC in a very strong way.
I have seen a post or two by WotC designers saying something to the effect of "we know not everyone will like 4e and some will stick with 3.5 and that's ok." It stuck in my mind as it ran counter to the 4e=goodfun 3e=badfun marketing we've seen. But the vast vast majority of the talk is about 4e, as talking about 3.x doesn't help 4e any.
As for dismissal of objections, what do you expect? 4e was designed to be radically different from previous editions (remember the "slaugther the sacred cows" blog entry?) so objections over these differences will be ignored as irrelevant because there is nothing they can do about them.
As Temperance said...
Posted By Temperance on 06/02/2008 10:20 PM
Hopefully, we bring back or introduce more people to the game than we lose... Note that the 4th edition gift set is currently ranked #3 on Amazon. Does this sound like a lot of backlash? WotC expects to lose customers over 4e, but they are gambling the new game is different and exciting enough to bring in more new customers than they lose. Whether or not this happens will be interesting to observe over the next 3 years or so - although WotC will probably be the only ones able to measure this and are unlikely to share their data.
While the 4e PHB, DMG, and MM seem to be selling really well, the true test of the success of 4e will be the sales of the rest of the books. Lots of fence sitters and a surprising number of anti-4e people are buying the "core" (not that core exists in 4e) books. They can't be counted on to purchase the rest of the 4e line. The various splat books and the yearly versions of the PHB, DMG(maybe?), and MM will give the true indication of the success of 4e.
Personally, like many other people, I look at my local gaming community and see a surprisingly large percentage who are planning to stick with 3.x as long as they can. I expect that the percentage remaining behind, while still a minority, will be a significantly higher percentage than WotC planned for - and that will make it tough to bring more people into 4e than are lost.
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Temperance
Sergeant
502 Posts
| | 06/03/2008 9:29 AM |
| I'm not a marketer. I also wasn't told by anyone to say that I think 4e is a better game system. That is simply what I believe.
Unfortunately, that sort of sales pitch only works when you can sit down and play it. | |
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TheChuck
Warrior
331 Posts
Mississippi, USA
| | 06/03/2008 10:10 AM |
| So how many people screamed and cried when 3.0 came out and swore they were only going to play 2e forever and ever and never buy any 3.x stuff? How many of those people still play 2e? I'll grant that there are still some that play 2e, but many of those people who fought tooth and claw against 3.x are now happily playing it. And it's also very likely that many of those same people are the ones that are arguing against 4e.
That being said, I think that maybe the switch to 4e was a year or two too early, but I've preordered my Core set already, so apparently I don't have too big a problem with it.
I have had some issues with the DDM line and it's surroundings of late, but nothing that is going to stop me from purchasing more WOTC products. The lateness of Unhallowed sucked, and thus far Against the Giants looks to be a subpar set, though that can easily change.
I could honestly care less what one frustrated guy at WotC said when they released Unhallowed. He's human too, and allowed to make mistakes. | |
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 06/03/2008 10:11 AM |
| Peter, here's the thing that prevents me from believeing it was in jest. He specifically mentions being really angry, and is still angry as he types that. That does not indicate a jesting tone. I was defending him (and the in your face could have been construed as such, until he specifically mentioned the anger he had while posting it)
As for 4E, I like it. I do have my copies of the Core books, and I like most of what I've seen. I've DM'd the shadowfell, and it's more fun for me. And i'm a rules/crunch type of guy. I don't like the new angels, but for the most par, I like 4E a lot.
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Wraithborne
Commander
3532 Posts
West Virginia
| | 06/03/2008 10:18 AM |
| Posted By Teflon Jeff on 06/03/2008 10:11 AM
Peter, here's the thing that prevents me from believeing it was in jest. He specifically mentions being really angry, and is still angry as he types that. That does not indicate a jesting tone. I was defending him (and the in your face could have been construed as such, until he specifically mentioned the anger he had while posting it)
The stuff in his blog about hitting all the people that "deserve it" didn't really help either.
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 06/03/2008 10:31 AM |
| Posted By Wraithborne on 06/03/2008 10:18 AM
The stuff in his blog about hitting all the people that "deserve it" didn't really help either.
Yeah, that's exactly the type of thing I'm talking about.
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Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1788 Posts
Portland OR
| | 06/03/2008 11:15 AM |
| We ask for clarifying communication and we get "hitting" and "in your face"... again not what we had in mind.
Please try to keep this thread to DDM... there are plenty of I hate 4E threads elsewhere.
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zenthrus
Commander
4811 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 06/03/2008 11:23 AM |
| Here's my two bits:
1) The comments on the blog/posts were out of line (as illustrated by the WizO).
2) Deadline stress is no reason to lash out at a vocal minority (or majority for that matter). It's unconscionable and bad PR.
3) I'm not sure what a late release of Unhallowed DDM 2.0 stat cards has to do with 4th Edition D&D?
4) Not sure which gamers Corim is hanging out with (we live in the same city). The general buzz about 4th ed. in my circles is extremely positive. Granted, I game with several MtG judges and everyone else plays MtG and after running through part of KotS they were all hooked on the new system (combat flows like MtG with an upkeep, main phase, and end-of-turn check). Is 4e a different game than 3.5? Yes. Was 3.5 a different game than 3.0? Largely, yes. Was 3.x a substantially different game than 2.x? Very much so. 4th edition brings a lot of combat streamlining to the table. I'm a big fan of streamlined combat since it opens up more time for role-playing (rather than roll-playing).Frankly I don't care much about fluff since fluff can always be modified for house rules.
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Username
Warlord
5623 Posts
| | 06/03/2008 12:37 PM |
| 3) I'm not sure what a late release of Unhallowed DDM 2.0 stat cards has to do with 4th Edition D&D?
People are assuming (perhaps accurately) that prepping and releasing 4.0 is taking priority over other items at WotC (and I would said rightfully so, gotta go make the money first!). | |
Originally posted by Schooly_D
Username - he deals in minis
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Corim Danex
Warlord
6614 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/03/2008 1:46 PM |
| Posted By zenthrus on 06/03/2008 11:23 AM
Here's my two bits:
4) Not sure which gamers Corim is hanging out with (we live in the same city).
Well, I don't know a single person that you play with either. I have not personally seen you in 1-2 years and so I have not had a chance to talk with you about it. I have spoken with several different people I do have contact with. And a great majority of them don't like 4e.
What does 4e have to do with Unhallowed Stat cards? Not much at all. I just noticed Temperance posting here and never really had a chance to ask a WotC representative the questions I have, and took the chance.
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Corim Danex
Warlord
6614 Posts
West Valley City, Utah
| | 06/03/2008 1:48 PM |
| Posted By TheChuck on 06/03/2008 10:10 AM
So how many people screamed and cried when 3.0 came out and swore they were only going to play 2e forever and ever and never buy any 3.x stuff? How many of those people still play 2e? I'll grant that there are still some that play 2e, but many of those people who fought tooth and claw against 3.x are now happily playing it. And it's also very likely that many of those same people are the ones that are arguing against 4e. Yeah, I have heard that argument dozens of times. It doesn't really do anything to change my opinion. That argument has gotten pretty stale actuallyl.
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"Look to God and live." Alma 37:47
Vindicated Champ of Hippogriff (Arcadian Hippogriff) and Uncommon Horse | |
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Turboman
Warrior
212 Posts
| | 06/03/2008 1:49 PM |
| | What 4E has to do with DDM stat cards being updated is that there are many people who work on the DDM line that also have hands in 4E. If time crunches occur the bigger moneymaker is always going to be D&D so other things will get put off. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that but also is going to piss off a lot of people. | |
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paladin72
Sneak
87 Posts
| | 06/03/2008 2:42 PM |
| Posted By Turboman on 06/03/2008 1:49 PM
What 4E has to do with DDM stat cards being updated is that there are many people who work on the DDM line that also have hands in 4E. If time crunches occur the bigger moneymaker is always going to be D&D so other things will get put off. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that but also is going to piss off a lot of people.
According to wikipedia DDM is the #2 line behind Magic.
Evidently it has been bringing in more money than D&D alone.
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Teflon Jeff
Warlord
7146 Posts
Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.
| | 06/03/2008 3:27 PM |
| Posted By paladin72 on 06/03/2008 2:42 PM Posted By Turboman on 06/03/2008 1:49 PM
What 4E has to do with DDM stat cards being updated is that there are many people who work on the DDM line that also have hands in 4E. If time crunches occur the bigger moneymaker is always going to be D&D so other things will get put off. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that but also is going to piss off a lot of people. According to wikipedia DDM is the #2 line behind Magic. Evidently it has been bringing in more money than D&D alone.
Wikipedia isn't exactly the paragon of truth... but even were it true, the delay of some stats for people who have already bought those figures is minimal in terms of revenue compared to the street delay of a book not making it to shelves.
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Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast
Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon
Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon
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Turboman
Warrior
212 Posts
| | 06/03/2008 5:19 PM |
| | And we all know by what WotC has told us that RPGers buy 75% of D&D Miniatures and use them for RPG only so they could care less about new stat cards. Skirmishers make up a very small percentage so again stats for the skirmish game are not a top priority. | |
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