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Subject: "Why I don't like the feel of Hordelings"

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galneweinhaw
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07/11/2006 12:15 PM  
It's metric.

I think this is why people have a problem with it. Regular maxminis users are used to Imperial...good ol' straight forward Imperial.

Hordelings is different, it looks different, it feels different.

But guess what, you are using the same methods to do the same thing, which in the end, isn't all that different.

It must be a pain in the ass at first, changing how you do things. But once you realize the numbers still add up, and it *may* even be easier when you try to do some more complicated tasks, it's not all that bad.

Luckily for me, I was born into a metric system ;)

Hope to see you all over at Hordelings with Jai and the rest of the coolios =)

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07/11/2006 3:07 PM  
quote:
Hope to see you all over at Hordelings with Jai and the rest of the coolios =)


[:(]

I'd rather we were all here.... Your example is a good one (metric vs imperial). See where the US got when Jimmy Carter mandated a metric adoption date...

Really... I just want the community under ONE roof. This is the roof I'd prefer, but I'm seeing a lot of holes, and that just makes me sad.

Pat E

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07/11/2006 3:30 PM  
The holes aren't going away.

I am not gone.
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galneweinhaw
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07/11/2006 3:49 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15

Really... I just want the community under ONE roof.


This is what pisses me off so much about the situation, that we were on the verge of getting the best of everything, all under ONE roof.

However, if I can't go to the ONE place that I want to go, then I'm going to go to the place that asks me how thing should be done as opposed to the place that tells me how things will be done (or just does them without telling me....or asks and ignores... you get the idea ;)

Although it sounds like Merric has been keeping his feet out of the mud here, I sure hope he can wade through it behind the scenes or something cus this whole situtation sucks, and in the past he has done such an awesome job keeping us from stabbing each other with Storm Giants...

HOPE! There must be some, cus you know what they say happens when you lose hope =(



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07/11/2006 4:18 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by galneweinhaw
However, if I can't go to the ONE place that I want to go, then I'm going to go to the place that asks me how thing should be done as opposed to the place that tells me how things will be done (or just does them without telling me....or asks and ignores... you get the idea ;)



The only problem for me is, the place that 'tells' how things will be done, is currently closer to what I like, than the place that asks what I would like to have done.

The issue of how long that currently will hold is what scares me.

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07/11/2006 5:11 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum

The issue of how long that currently will hold is what scares me.


Ya, the info vacuum about what the heck is going on is quite annoying =)

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07/11/2006 7:26 PM  
Guys, there's a bunch of work going on behind the scenes. I'm pretty much staying out of it, but I know that such is occurring.

My impression is that you will have to choose whether you want to stay with maxminis (which is being upgraded) or go to Hordelings (which is being upgraded).

I'll tell you more about things when I know them. [:)]

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07/11/2006 8:52 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
My impression is that you will have to choose whether you want to stay with maxminis (which is being upgraded) or go to Hordelings (which is being upgraded).



Really? Why? Can't I be on both?

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07/11/2006 9:56 PM  
At this point EVERYONE knows what I know ... and you can see how little I do know.

I don't think Merric was saying you'll have to chose. Rather, there are two sites, both amidst flurry of updating. Heck, competition like this is good, right? As now both will try to be better for the community than the other? We've been wanting some attention and focus for a while and now we've got it.

Sure you can be on both ... but really most of us stick with one place. I have the rounds of message boards I make during my day and I don't vary too much. If I spend just a little time I don't have the ability to be involved in deep converstions.

In a sense, we will each have to chose.


Of course, each site still has issues. I'm getting rather fond of MaxMinis pages not loading and giving me ODBC driver errors and Hordelings pages taking far longer than they should and having that *different* interface.

Ultimately I expect things will settle down after a while.

I hope.

Maybe.

Please?


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07/11/2006 11:06 PM  
Yeah I still don't like the sizing of Hordelings. It's better but still 1/3 of my screen is empty space. I'd like it to be sizable like Maxminis is. The layout doesn't work for me either. It just doesn't. If only the webmaster would have just agreed to the maxminis 2.0 and merger things would have been fine. So far nothing he's done is of any use and at least with Jai and Ktatroe I had a clue what changes were going to be made. Webmaster has barely told us anything. I've heard that Clix, cards and ads might be the way things are going and that entire idea makes me want to vomit. If that's what this place turns into I'll leave in a heartbeat.

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07/11/2006 11:26 PM  
Change is scary.

But that doesn't mean it's bad--just different.

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07/12/2006 6:52 AM  
Oops... I wandered in thinking this was about why we dont like the feel of Hordlings.

I just find it breaks up the text too much. Avatars on top instead on the side, quotes seperated line by line by white space while being bordered in blue.

Hopefully it wont be a case of having to make a choice between them.

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07/12/2006 8:32 AM  
I agree that there is "somewhat of a choice" coming. The lack of info good bad or indifferent is the buzz kill. Not knowing what is coming down the pike is a scary thing. Regardless of what the issue is.

As to having the communinty underone roof. That is something always to strive for. But, the adage of home is where the heart is comes to mind. Where ever I find the attitude to be polite, well moderated, and insightfull that is where I will spend the bullk of my time.

As to the feel, I agree with Robbdaman, the size thing is a concern as I find myself squinting at the screen. That is something that I am really not comforatble with and an issue that has been brought up. Time will tell.

Telling things up and in the front is a nice thing. Not saying anything bad. Just expressing my position. I like to know what to expect and plan. Surprises can be a little shocking and hard to read the "emotional" value of the surprise in the coolness of cyberspace. This is the worrying thing with this whole situation. Like, galneweinhaw said, "Don't lose hope." that is my take as well....[:D] So, I will be out on the playground see the rest of you crazy kids out there!!!! [:D]

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07/12/2006 10:05 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll

... quotes seperated line by line by white space while being bordered in blue.


It's a bit tedious, but you can fix that by removing "bq." from the beginning of lines after the first and inserting "
".
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07/12/2006 10:14 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman

If only the webmaster would have just agreed to the maxminis 2.0 and merger things would have been fine.


Not necessarily.

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07/12/2006 10:22 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by MerricB

quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman

If only the webmaster would have just agreed to the maxminis 2.0 and merger things would have been fine.


Not necessarily.



Why not? It certainly was presented by Jai, CG and KT as the solution. It was only derailed by the actions of the WM.

I'd love to hear some more from you as why you think it wouldn't have.

Pat E

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07/12/2006 10:57 AM  
There might be things that are behind the scenes that might not be best aired in a public place. I don't know. But I do know there are more sides to a story than the coin shows. Things will settle down as CRG has stated. The thing is I don't think that there is a "solid" timeframe to the actions. Just more of, "as the dust settles" type thing.

Here is to the community and the people in it....[:D]

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07/12/2006 7:30 PM  
Yep, there's a bunch of stories. Some might even have an element of truth in them. Or more than that. [)]

quote:
I don't think Merric was saying you'll have to chose


Actually, there is a certain choice to be made just regarding where you trade; by its very nature, trading is best at the place with the most people (and there's also a minimum number of posters needed for regular discussions as well!)

I'm somewhat hesitant to commit myself for a move... and I also do not know what my role would be on the new site.

My personal preference would be for maxminis itself to be upgraded to be the site everyone wants it to be. Maxminis2 was something floated because it appeared that the webmaster had lost interest... but that seems to not be the case. So, what now?

I suggest that we wait until the sites involved actually finish upgrading (or we realise that they'll take too long to upgrade), rather than just rushing in to anything.

Cheers!

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07/12/2006 11:05 PM  
Well, they're both taking too long for my impatient self!

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07/12/2006 11:12 PM  
Yeah, I know. I'd like things to be resolved now as well (it'd give me more time to devote to putting my own site back together!)

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07/12/2006 11:22 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by MerricB

I suggest that we wait until the sites involved actually finish upgrading (or we realise that they'll take too long to upgrade), rather than just rushing in to anything.


I wish I could agree. My problem is of course our Eternal Campaign that has been so well hosted by and accommodated by maxminis untill now. I just can't risk losing that data. I may just be paranoid, but that mini-crash/server upgrade scared the bejeezers outta me! Not to mention, we no longer have db access to our data =(

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07/13/2006 12:22 AM  
For the EC, I'd suggest e-mailing the webmaster (maxminis_webmaster@yahoo.com) and discussing how you can get a back-up of that information - and plans for the future of the EC. I'd be *very* surprised if the webmaster wasn't supportive of it.

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07/13/2006 8:17 AM  
Well as several have said, it is a choice. I have used both and have about as many trades on both, so you can use both and find people in both.

I do have a buring question though... why all the secrecy7?? I just wish that the information would come out and people would say what is going on. I understand that we can hear one persons side to the story, but if there is another side, I'd like to hear it. Why was the merger shot down? Why no maxminis 2.0? Can we get some solid answers.

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07/13/2006 9:11 AM  
"Why was the merger shot down? Why no maxminis 2.0? Can we get some solid answers."

Just a theory on my part:

The webmaster has been working to upgrade maxminis. It's not a fast process, and he didn't want to promise the upgrade too far in advance. (I'm sure you've noticed the "gimme it now" mentality that often surfaces on the boards). Given that he thinks that his upgrade will fix the problems with maxminis, why should he surrender control of the site to hordelings?

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07/13/2006 9:19 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by MerricB

Given that he thinks that his upgrade will fix the problems with maxminis, why should he surrender control of the site to hordelings?


Just want to clear one misnomer up -- we never proposed for Hordelings to "take control of" Maxminis, we proposed building a site that had the best of both worlds, and then surrendering ownership of that site to the community at large (represented by a group of individuals from that community).

Just a nit to pick; it's just one of the misconceptions floating around about what we proposed that gets to me -- I'm sure you meant to offense, and none taken! [:)]

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07/13/2006 9:24 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
(I'm sure you've noticed the "gimme it now" mentality that often surfaces on the boards).



Merric, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???? you mean in this day and age of fast food, blazing speed internet, and microwave ovens. there is a I want it now mentality.....wow....I guess I hadn't really noticed...probably casue I was driving too fast and talking on a cell phone...[:)]

j/k in case you hadn't noticed...[:D]

I can understand the wbmstr's train of thought. And, I am here for the community in any form any place. The people make the place and I like the idea of that. But, there is a fear of change. Fear of things to come yadda, yadda. But time will tell and I think that a lot of us are reading to much into the tea leaves. Myself, included all though it is more the coffee grounds. [)] Like you said these types of things don't happen over night....[)]

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07/13/2006 11:26 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by MerricB

...why should he surrender control of the site to hordelings?...


Out of all the stuff going around I never had the impression this was the case. I thought it was a collaboration.

EDIT: perhaps this is part of the problem, that there is a mentality that the community must be "controlled" by anyone at all, rather than a website for the community and run by the community (which is what I thought this merger thing was all about...doh!)

btw thanks for the email. Webmaster, you have mail! =)

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07/13/2006 12:03 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by MerricB

The webmaster has been working to upgrade maxminis. It's not a fast process, and he didn't want to promise the upgrade too far in advance.
Considering that he doesn't tell us anything, I find it hard to believe that this was a concern.

quote:
Given that he thinks that his upgrade will fix the problems with maxminis
Right now, I think the biggest problem with maxminis is lack of communication from webmaster. I doubt that any upgrade will remedy that.

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07/13/2006 8:06 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by ktatroe

quote:
Originally posted by MerricB

Given that he thinks that his upgrade will fix the problems with maxminis, why should he surrender control of the site to hordelings?


Just want to clear one misnomer up -- we never proposed for Hordelings to "take control of" Maxminis, we proposed building a site that had the best of both worlds, and then surrendering ownership of that site to the community at large (represented by a group of individuals from that community).

Just a nit to pick; it's just one of the misconceptions floating around about what we proposed that gets to me -- I'm sure you meant to offense, and none taken! [:)]


Yeah, well - try to change the Established World Order and people *love* coming up with misconceptions. [:)]

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07/13/2006 10:25 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by MerricB

The webmaster has been working to upgrade maxminis. It's not a fast process, and he didn't want to promise the upgrade too far in advance. (I'm sure you've noticed the "gimme it now" mentality that often surfaces on the boards).


While I understand not wanting to tip his hand and promise too much too soon, I cannot agree with the almost complete silence that webmaster employs.

A simple, "we are looking into possibilites, but they may not take effect for several months..." would have gone a fair way to soothing the fears of the user population at large. Most of the hardcore users are pretty level-headed and (although we might need to be reminded from time to time) I feel would be pretty understanding of it.

The fact remains that maxminis has been having issues for quite some time (a year? more?). There were times when it seemed like maxminis was being held together with spit and baling wire, but we perservered through all of them. But something is different this time.

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07/13/2006 11:35 PM  
I can't say I'm that happy about it either. I understand the wish to remain behind the scenes, but there are times we need to *know* what's going on.

Cheers!

Merric Blackman

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07/14/2006 7:16 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by johnny.quest

quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll

... quotes seperated line by line by white space while being bordered in blue.


It's a bit tedious, but you can fix that by removing "bq." from the beginning of lines after the first and inserting "
".



Thanks, but that doesnt help me reading other people's quotes . Thats just a quirk imo though.
I will try and remember it for others.

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07/15/2006 3:53 PM  
quote:
Originally posted by MerricB
I understand the wish to remain behind the scenes,


I don't. It's burning bridges quickly now. The secrecy is what is strongly turning me off maxminis. It is momentum that's keeping me here. And the group of good people still here. And the trade history making it easiery for me to set up my WotDQ trades. That, and how much I dislike the interface at hordelings.

I don't care if things aren't solidly determined--it is very irritating waiting for things to be solidly determined and then revealed in a heartbeat. There are no warnings. There is no time to prepare for changes.

My frustration is not directed at you, Merric. It's directed at webmaster.

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07/16/2006 8:50 AM  
What I'll say about hordelings is that there is elegance in simplicity, Hordelings is not elegant.


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07/16/2006 12:02 PM  
There's a learning curve to Hordelings for sure. However, aside from the responsiveness of the designers and the quality of the posting, the tools are solid and will only get better.

Already, the trade interface is a thing of beauty. I click on a mini that I want, and I'm brought to a page where I see its stats, its current average price, and links to every member of Hordelings that has one available for trade. I click on one of those links, and I see a list of all the minis that person has that I want and all the minis I have that s/he wants. Then, I click on propose trade, and I choose numbers of each mini. It is quite simple and elegant.

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07/16/2006 1:00 PM  
When I view Hordelings there are a lot of icons overlapping with the text that they should be next to. I posted about this and was asked what browser(and version) I use, and what resolution. I'm using Windows 2000 Proffesional and I believe my browser is IE. How do I go about figuring out my resolution? And more to the point, why does this matter? I've never had to deal with this stuff before.

Edit: I don't want what I've posted to come across as though I'm bashing the site in any way. I understand the 'tools' aspect of Hordelings is superior to this site, but I don't think it's easier to use. I don't really understand why there's a learning curve.

My experience with message boards is pretty much limited to maxminis, monteook.com, seankreynolds.com, enworld.org, acaeum.com, giantitp.com, wizards.com, kenzerco.com, andycollins.net, jonathantweet.com, and thegamemechanics.com and really not much more. I don't visit many of these any more because I've found everything I need here.


You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com

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07/16/2006 10:01 PM  
I like the feel of Maxminis more than I like the tools of Hordelings. But, ultimately, I'll go where the most significantly meaningful discussion goes. I do want to have a robust trading site, but I'm more interested in the discussion end.

If Maxminis maintains its feel, I'll definitely stay. That said, some of that feel has slipped a bit over the past month.

[:(]

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07/17/2006 8:26 AM  
quote:
Originally posted by nyjastul69

When I view Hordelings there are a lot of icons overlapping with the text that they should be next to. I posted about this and was asked what browser(and version) I use, and what resolution. I'm using Windows 2000 Proffesional and I believe my browser is IE. How do I go about figuring out my resolution?

Right-click anywhere on the blank area of your desktop (i.e. not on any icons, but on the space between them). Click on "Properties." When the window appears, click on the "Settings" tab. There should be a slider on there somewhere (I forgot how it looks on Windows 2000, I haven't used that OS in a while) with two numbers under it (e.g. 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768, etc.). Those two numbers are your screen resolution, i.e. the number of pixels displayed horizontally and vertically.

quote:
And more to the point, why does this matter?

Here's an example: if your screen resolution is 800x600 (pixels), and I put a picture on my website that's 1000 pixels wide, then you're not going to be able to see the picture in its entirety. Most likely, you're going to see a part of the picture, and then have to scroll to the right to see it all. Sometimes, however, stuff behaves a bit differently. Like, you get overlapping text, instead of getting a scroll bar to scroll to the right. Right now, the accepted standard for designing web pages is 1024x768. As more people get bigger monitors, the standard will also change. Nobody makes web pages for 640x480 anymore, because the number of users that use that resolution is within statistical error margins.

It's entirely possible that resolution is not your problem. Internet Explorer (I presume you're using version 5, which came with Windows 2000; you can figure the version out by clicking on "Help" and then "About") is not a standards-compliant browser. Furthermore, versions of IE are very different from one another. Finally, since hordelings.com utilizes A LOT of JavaScript, if JavaScript is turned off in your browser, it won't display correctly.

Web designers are often faced with the following conundrum:

A) use advanced coding techniques that allow you to do more stuff and make the pages easier to maintain, but risk that your page doesn't display correctly on all browsers

or

B) use older technologies and make your page viewable everywhere

or

C) design your page to look great in one browser and ignore the others (this was pretty much the case between 1999 and 2002, while IE ruled supreme)

or

D) write separate code specific for each browser version, then check which browser your user is using and display appropriate code

or

E) kill yourself

(D) often leads to (E), by the way. Such code is virtually unmaintainable.

quote:
I've never had to deal with this stuff before.

Count yourself lucky. Many sites have issues with one version of the browser or another. For example, even parts of microsoft.com don't display correctly in all versions of IE.

Hypethetical Blood War Set List | Champion of the Gelugon | Vindicated Prophet of Blood War
Ha 69/80 | De 60/60 | Ar 57/60 | GoL 72/72 | Ab 60/60 | DK 60/60 | AF 60/60 | UD 59/60 | WD 57/60 | WDQ 3/60| BW
Total DDM Count: 1037 | No chance of finishing the set | Will finish the set | Set

nyjastul69
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07/17/2006 9:01 AM  
Thanks Sammael. That pretty much explains everything. I've seen those resolution numbers before, when fumbling around with desk tops. I guess due to luck and a very limited amount of internet exposure, these things have never come up.

Edit: I'm familiar with going into the properties screen, except I have only 1 option, general. I wonder if it's been disable because this a work computer.


You know, I keep thinking that after the new design team gets done with D&D 4e, D&D won't stand for Dungeons and Dragons anymore, because well, that's just not fun. It's old and stuffy. - Originally Posted by BabWryter on Kenzerco.com

Sammael
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07/17/2006 11:28 AM  
It's very likely. It's also possible that some other things have been disabled on the computer which cause Hordelings to look strange.

Hypethetical Blood War Set List | Champion of the Gelugon | Vindicated Prophet of Blood War
Ha 69/80 | De 60/60 | Ar 57/60 | GoL 72/72 | Ab 60/60 | DK 60/60 | AF 60/60 | UD 59/60 | WD 57/60 | WDQ 3/60| BW
Total DDM Count: 1037 | No chance of finishing the set | Will finish the set | Set
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