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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
    
 | | 09/11/2006 11:06 AM |
| Posted By PaSquall on 09/11/2006 10:39 AM
Maxminis has around 5000 members. The opinion of a few dozen of them (even the most vocal ones) is not enough to say that the merger had "nearly unanimous support". Nobody has a clue about what "the community" wanted.
If you reread what I actually wrote, you will see that I said "nearly unanimous support by the community in the thread devoted to it." Which is to say that nearly all those who posted in the thread were in support of the merger. Obviously this does not include nearly 5000 people, but I do feel that it is enough to constitute "a clue". Many of the nearly 5000 members are no longer active, and many are lurkers. Many simply never visit the Forums forum. Recent efforts to involve more members in community discussion by posting threads in general that linked to Forums topics were squashed as all of those threads were then moved by Webmaster to the Forums forum. Another sign that he really doesn't want the community to be involved in what he is doing.
Discounting the voices of those who bothered to speak up is foolish, imo. Just because one might disagree with them does not mean that all of the silent members disagree with them. Nor does it mean that the silent members were in favor of the merger. It just means that they had voiced no opinion, for whatever reason.
I still don't see the problem with that non-merger. Why only one site ?
Those
who like the new maxminis come here. Those who prefer hordelings go on
hordelings. Those who like both visit both. How can this be a problem ? Whether you agree with the merger or not is rather immaterial at this point. I agree that there is a definite benefit to having two sites, and I think that I would most likely prefer this setup to a single site. However, the issue is that the opinions that were expressed by the community were strongly in favor of the merger. Whether or not that was an accurate sampling of the community's opinion as a whole is something worth considering, though. Yet if this were the case, why wasn't there an effort made to gather input from a greater portion of the community? And moreso, why were efforts directed to this end intentionally squashed?
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Champion of Gnomes | |
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Cosworth
Warrior
215 Posts
| | 09/11/2006 11:22 AM |
| Posted By Felagund on 09/11/2006 10:06 AM I guess in short, you could say that I don't trust you. I don't know what your motivations are, and your responses so far in this thread have only served to strenghten that mistrust in me. | |
Sorry Maxminis - find me at Hordelings from sep. 14 2006 | |
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PaSquall
Underboss
1395 Posts
| | 09/11/2006 11:56 AM |
| Posted By Felagund on 09/11/2006 11:06 AM I still don't see the problem with that non-merger. Why only one site ?
Those who like the new maxminis come here. Those who prefer hordelings go on hordelings. Those who like both visit both. How can this be a problem ? Whether you agree with the merger or not is rather immaterial at this point. I agree that there is a definite benefit to having two sites, and I think that I would most likely prefer this setup to a single site. However, the issue is that the opinions that were expressed by the community were strongly in favor of the merger. Whether or not that was an accurate sampling of the community's opinion as a whole is something worth considering, though. Yet if this were the case, why wasn't there an effort made to gather input from a greater portion of the community? And moreso, why were efforts directed to this end intentionally squashed? That's what I was trying to explain in my previous post : I strongly feel that the people who posted in that thread do not represent an accurate sampling of the community. I may be wrong, but I think that at least some people who weren't pro-merger (or were undecided) didn't post, maybe because the pro-merger were too vocal ; I seem to recall some agressive posts in this thread (agressivity mainly directed towards the webmaster IIRC), maybe these non-posting members didn't want to be caught in some kind of flamewar... And I recall that Gnolaum did open a poll-thread about this, but Merric closed it IIRC (and not webmaster). A real poll about the merger would have been a good option, but the old software didn't allow it easily. (messed with the quotes a bit. Still haven't figured out exactly how they work on this new software) | |
Vindicated Champion of the PSEUDODRAGON
(Unhappy) vindicated champion of the DRYAD
Against the giants called shot : huge cloud giant female
Demonweb called shot : ghost | |
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Forum Admin
Host
Sergeant
596 Posts
| | 09/11/2006 11:56 AM |
| Posted By robby on 09/10/2006 8:39 PM
I read that all questions would be answered. This one has not yet, so I'm reposting it.
Posted By robby on 09/01/2006 2:12 PM
While I'm here, I do have a question I'd like answered. Why did you pick this particular forum software, especially considering the amount of functional limitations, and why wasn't it tested more fully (and the bugs actually fixed) on a variety of browsers before it was launched?
In addition, I'd like to know why the now-current software wasn't originally implemented as the upgrade, instead of going through intermediary software that, frankly, blew chunks.
Its one of those instances where the community doesn't get to see all that is involved in running the site. I originally purchased the forums software we're running today back in June. The company I bought it from advertised that they had conversion scripts to convert the data from the old boards we were using to the new boards I had bought. The problem was, the script didn't work. I called the company every business day for 3 weeks trying to get some help from them. I emailed them, I offered to pay more, etc. Nothing could move these guys. I talked it over with Wuzzard and we decided to give the other boards a shot. He looked at the tables for the new boards and decided it was fairly straightforward to write scripts to convert the old forums to the intermediate boards and wrote them. The conversion to the intermediate boards worked.
Most of the bugs that cropped up on the intermediate boards popped up in actual use, not in our initial testing. After gathering a long list of the bugs and spending some time trying to fix them, we realized it was an uphill battle. We'd have to rewrite a lot of the forums to fix them, and when the forums got upgraded we'd have to do it again. I started looking again to the software I already had paid for (I asked for a refund but they ignored my request). This time I found a conversion script to convert from the boards we had just moved to. I tried it, but it didn't work completely. I wrote some scripts to convert the remaining data. At last, the boards we bought back in June worked! So we made the switch. | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1341 Posts
| | 09/11/2006 11:57 AM |
| I've done my best to piece together a timeline of the events that have led us to this situation. Some questions are interspersed.
December 7, 2005: Jai reports ongoing communication with webmaster regarding active ownership. Jai also mentions "the discovery of the database being larger than allowed size, and the increase in hosting costs."
Source: http://tinyurl.co.uk/dzo6
December 15, 2005: Jai notes that Webmaster has responded to communication.
Source: http://tinyurl.co.uk/dzo6
March 9, 2006: ChristopherGroves asks for an update. Jai replies that Webmaster has not responded.
Source: http://tinyurl.co.uk/dzo6
March 14, 2006: Jai emails Webmaster again and gets a response.
Source: http://tinyurl.co.uk/dzo6
Question: It appears that you failed to respond to the mods from December 2005 to March 2006, despite the fact that the site was facing critical maintenance issues. Why?
Question: If it’s true that from October 2005 to June 2006, as your September 8, 2006 post alleges, Jai "let the users of maxminis suffer and had the admins scrambling to delete threads needlessly," where were you – and what was your responsibility – while this was happening?
March 20, 2006: Webmaster responds online in the admin forum: Hey guys, I am here! Personally, I am thinking that maxminis needs to branch out beyond DDM and expand beyond miniatures to continue to exist and grow indefinitely. Such expansion would require efforts in the areas of programming, site management, design, and marketing, not to mention cash. I am proposing: moving to a more generalized format similar to enworld. changing service providers or hosting by one of us to allow for rapid site expansion. the fastest forum out there for gamers. Doing what it takes to absolutely minimize load times. a generalized have/want list that admins can add games to as they are released, not just miniature games but any game the admins deem relevant to the gamer community a focus on competitive strategies for newly released games. A strong point of maxminis seems to be that we have some of the very best strategists here on a daily basis. I suspect the quality strategy tips is a key draw to the site. This may involve starting monthly articles or blogs. a change in the site name to reflect the more generalized nature of the new site, with maxminis.com redirecting to it users from this site attending game conventions worldwide and promoting the site at the conventions with t-shirts and flyers, and by holding tournaments with prizes paid for by the site. Taking out ads in magazines such as Dragon, Dungeon, Pokemon, etc... to attract fresh faces to the site. making the forums google-friendly. Right now its hard to find maxminis.com if you do a search about DDM, SWM, AA, etc.. adding banner ads and selling them to gamer companies (i.e., no generic ad services). a sharing of the revenue the site generates among the people making the site work. Right now the site doesnt generate any revenue, but I think it has the critical mass to do so and this ability will snowball as the site branches out. Jai and I will also work out sharing ownership. Id like to contribute cash and some time spent on user interface design. The general site structure I will leave up to Those That Know Better (you guys). OK now I am done on the soapbox, time for you guys to voice your thoughts. Source: http://tinyurl.co.uk/dzo6
March 20, 2006: Jai responds to Webmaster, clarifying that he doesn’t want to take ownership, and proposing for the first time a merger with Hordelings.
Source: http://tinyurl.co.uk/dzo6
April 4, 2006: This is the last record of communication from the Webmaster (to which I have access) until July 6, 2006.
Source: http://tinyurl.co.uk/dzo6
Question: Would you please restore the thread entitled "I contacted Webmaster ... and he replied here!" to Forums Discussion. For some reason, it is missing, and I can’t access the Google cache version beyond the first page. It would help to piece together the rest of the timeline.
May 23, 2006: Site issues prompt community members to inquire on the progress of "Maxminis 2.0"
Source: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/55/tpage/1/view/Topic/postid/445495/Default.aspx
May 27, 2006: Webmaster's September 8, 2006 post alleges that Jai "contacted the hosting company via the chat window using my account (as I did above to fix maxminis) and asked them to backup to maxminis database into 375 MB file. He then downloaded it to his home computer." Webmaster views this act as “gross abuse of the trust I had placed with [Jai].”
Source: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/55/tpage/2/view/Topic/postid/653588/Default.aspx
Question: Did you attempt to communicate with Jai regarding his downloading of the Maxminis database?
Question: If such communication took place, did Jai offer an explanation for his actions?
Question: Given that you viewed this act as a gross abuse of trust – an offense worthy of banning – why did you wait until July 6, 2006 (40 days later) to remove Jai as database administrator? Also, why did you allow Jai to retain his status as moderator, given this act?
June 2006: Webmaster’s July 6, 2006 post indicates that around this time Jai, Kevin, and Chris emailed him regarding a proposed merger. (Jai had mentioned said merger in a response to Webmaster’s March 20, 2006 post.)
Source: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/view/topic/forumid/55/postid/447669/Default.aspx
June 2006: Webmaster’s July 6, 2006 post indicates that he has begun changing servers and "The hiccups the site experienced is due to that change."
Source: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/view/topic/forumid/55/postid/447669/Default.aspx
June 26, 2006: In response to requests from the community (see May 23, 2006), Jai describes a proposed merger: "We are proposing that MaxMinis and Hordelings merge into a new super site as version 2.0."
Source: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/forumid/55/postid/447176/view/topic/Default.aspx
July 5, 2006: Jai is locked out of the database, without explanation, and announces his departure from Maxminis.
Source: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/view/topic/forumid/55/postid/447622/Default.aspx
July 6, 2006: Webmaster posts publicly for the first time since I've been a member of the community. Highlights: Less than a month ago, Jai, Chris, and Kevin wrote me some email proposing the merger of maxminis with hordelings … Entirely separate from the 2.0 discussion, I was in the middle of getting maxminis on a faster server. We're on a faster server right now from what we were on before, but I want maxminis to go faster still, so there will be a further server upgrade occurring soon. The hiccups the site experienced is due to that change.The hiccups the site experienced is due to that change … During the server upgrade process, I took a look at maxminis' database and noted that it has not been maintained for some time. For example, threads have not been archived since October of last year. I have created some scripts to handle this and they appear to work (some of you may have noticed that the General Discussion page count dropped from 68 to 59 in the past week as the topics were moved to the archive). Source: http://www.maxminis.com/Forums/tabid/104/view/topic/forumid/55/postid/447669/Default.aspx
Question: Jai's December 7, 2005 post notes "the discovery of the database being larger than allowed size." Is there any relationship between this discovery, the thread archiving issue, and the push for upgrades from Jai and the other moderators?
Question: Your July 6, 2006 post indicates that, some time in June 2006, you discovered that Jai had not archived threads since October 2005. In that post, you also indicate that you needed to write some scripts in order to rectify the situation.
- Do you have any idea why Jai didn't archive threads?
- Is there any indication that Jai attempted to archive threads?
- Given that archiving scripts didn't exist, by what method was Jai supposed to have archived threads?
- Was it Jai’s responsibility to write the scripts that enabled you to archive the threads?
- Jai’s December 7, 2005 post indicates that he was communicating with you regarding problems with the database. Why did it take until June 2006 for you to notice that threads hadn’t been archived?
July 2006 to present: Vrecknidj describes this period as "like watching a train wreck in slow-motion." | | | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11225 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 09/11/2006 12:21 PM |
| Posted By PaSquall on 09/11/2006 10:39 AM Posted By Felagund on 09/11/2006 10:06 AM Also, I must echo True Blue's concerns, and wonder just what brought you out of latency. Particularly since your first action was to deny the merger, which had nearly unanimous support by the community in the thread devoted to it. For as little involvement as you had with the site, I can only imagine what so suddenly renewed your interest. And with as little concern as you show for the desires of the community, I expect that the interest represents some sort of personal agenda.
Maxminis has around 5000 members. The opinion of a few dozen of them (even the most vocal ones) is not enough to say that the merger had "nearly unanimous support". Nobody has a clue about what "the community" wanted. I still don't see the problem with that non-merger. Why only one site ? Those who like the new maxminis come here. Those who prefer hordelings go on hordelings. Those who like both visit both. How can this be a problem ?
And how many of those 5000 post regularly?
And how many of those 5000 contribute to the community?
And how many of those 5000 are inactive users?
And how many of those 5000 are lurkers?
How many of the active members of Maxminis supported the merge? One hell of a lot more than those that didn't. | |
Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 09/11/2006 12:51 PM |
| Regarding the idea of combining the best of maxminis and hordelings
from the ground up. I'm familiar with php (hordelings code), and
also with aspx (maxminis code). They could not have been combined
without a complete rewrite. *IF* there was support and manpower
involved to do that and, and a sufficient plan of how to go about doing
so, I would have supported it. This is what the community was
lead to believe was going to happen. I believe this would have
been impossible with the people involved (more a function of quantity than quality). In a way, we were lied
to.
What I believe was the plan was to take maxminis data, and move it to
hordelings. And maybe tinker with the hordelings format, and
eventually add a few maxminis features. This would not have my
support.
The idea was to eliminate the less active maxminis host/webmaster from
the equation, and to put the community in the more active hands of the
hordelings webmaster. I'm not entirely adverse to the idea of the
more active involvement of the webmaster, but lets not pretend that
this was anything other than that.
I'll grant that webmaster/host has been invisible and perhaps inactive
for far too long, and that his communication was lacking. However
the poison that has leaked into our community is of our own making, not
his.
We wanted more active involvement, and we got it. We wanted an upgrade to the site, and we got it.
Why do we hate the maxminis host/webmaster?
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My online store http://store.hoardsters.com
Use quick search to see scans of every stat card! | |
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lalato
Underboss
1546 Posts
Urbana, IL
| | 09/11/2006 1:32 PM |
| Wow Gnolaum... it's amazing how two people can look at the same facts and derive completely different conclusions. Suffice it to say that I disagree with your characterization of events.
--sam
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I'm in Urbana, IL | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4135 Posts
| | 09/11/2006 1:57 PM |
| First, thank you to the webmaster/host for taking the time to answer questions, even the somewhat ugly ones.
I'm doing my best to stay out of the fray on the community split. Personally, I've decided to continue on as a moderator here. I now split my time between posting here and at hordelings.
Posted By Gnolaum on 09/11/2006 12:51 PM
The idea was to eliminate the less active maxminis host/webmaster from the equation, and to put the community in the more active hands of the hordelings webmaster. I'm not entirely adverse to the idea of the more active involvement of the webmaster, but lets not pretend that this was anything other than that.
From what I have seen and read, I don't believe this was the goal. For instance in a conversation with the webmaster, jai wrote the following:
Posted by jai on 03/24/2006 1:37 PM
Woot. He does live! [)] I told you guys i wasn't talking to myself.
First off, i never wanted to take ownership from you, i merely wanted to position the site so that we had active ownership for easier decision making. (No offense, but you are hard to contact!) I am still willing to take on burden of (partial) ownership of course, but i don't want to usurp power or anything crazy like that. Especially since you are interested in helping us grow.
I am a web developer by trade (as if you guys hadn't figured that out) and would love to start working on a new interface. I already have ideas and everything. I will actually be moving from my present location in hell to the west coast where i a was born and raised before my military days. I will be without work for a short time (weeks to maybe a month or more) and i can probably spend non-work hunting hours on a new interface.
Before i go nuts with my ideas, i would like to hear everybody else's response/ideas.
One last thing i want to mention though ... what would you guys say to a merger with hordelings? His wonderful interface, our wonderful community ... two dedicated developers who already know the systems ... *ducks behind keyboard*
My understanding is that goal was active ownership, not a power grab or to cut the webmaster out. That's at least what I was being told and I took it at face value. Granted, I wasn't privey to conversations taking place by email.
Fortunately we now have active ownership  . It's really too bad that the process of getting here came at the cost of a rift in the community and many of our most active members migrating to another site  . For many, it's probably too late to heal that rift, but I think this discussion will help some others understand what happened, to move on and get back to obsessing about minis .
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Champion of Anything Dragonlance
Before trading, please check the Disputed Trades Thread | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 09/11/2006 2:51 PM |
| Well I'd say that the goal was to eliminate the less-active maxminis
webmaster out of the equation. Otherwise, if those sugar coated
words were true, as opposed to whats between the lines, "we'd" be
please now that we have active ownership.
I think the events that occured since the webmaster started taking more
active control speak for the fact that "we" didn't want him active, "we"
wanted him out.
I am, of course, using "we" very subjectively.
Of course I see nothing wrong with working for more active involvment,
especially with the problems the site was having around then. I
would have done the same. I just feel that this split in the
community doesn't really fall at the webmasters feet. I'm not
sure were it lies. It may just lie at the feet of not being able
to read intent into an electronic form of communication. I'd
really prefer if it just went away. | |
My online store http://store.hoardsters.com
Use quick search to see scans of every stat card! | |
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Forum Admin
Host
Sergeant
596 Posts
| | 09/11/2006 2:59 PM |
| December 7, 2005 Jai wrote:
"In the past, i had a dialog going with Webmaster about a possible change in ownership of the site. It was started by his absence, and the desire to have active ownership. After the discovery of the database being larger than allowed size, and the increase in hosting costs, i emailed him again in hopes of re-opening the dialog."
Lets look at these statements in detail.
"possible change in ownership"
Here we are finally at the crux of the whole issue. Jai wanted ownership of maxminis. But Jai was not the only person involved in maxminis. He asked me for access to the database so he could help out, just like Wuzzard did.
Many people think that Jai wrote a lot of maxminis. The reality is that Jai is responsible for writing the trade interface and a rewrite of the gallery that was part of the minis database earlier. I wrote the original maxminis minis database (which was removed about 1.5 years ago and the original have-want list (and rewrote them when Star Wars came out), Wuzzard wrote the trade search engine, and I chose and setup the forums along with the hosting long before anyone was around. I picked the domain name, bought the spoilers on ebay to get people interested in the site, and I have paid all of maxminis bills since its inception. It was Wuzzard that came in and fixed the whole lost threads mess, which took him quite a bit of hard work btw, after Jai's mistake earlier this year.
Besides the technical and financing issues, theres more to making maxminis work. Merric had been maxminis lead moderator since it started; I think I appointed him only a month or two after it started. Zenako did a lot of manual labor in the early days to organize the trade threads, provide pricing guides, and so on. And many of the admins like Christopher Groves helped grow the site through their posts.
Should I have handed maxminis over to Jai because he was doing his part in keeping maxminis running? I say no. We never made any agreement when he asked for access that I would later give up ownership to him, and if he had left earlier someone else would have stepped into his place. Maxminis as an entity isn't worth much. I have probably poured more money into it then it could be sold for. To date, I have poured thousands of dollars into it, in case anyone is wondering. And I tell you, not once has anyone offered me a dime for it- not Jai, Kevin, or anyone else.
So the question is- why hold onto it? So I can make decisions at key times to keep it on track. Some individuals are upset that I did not accept the merger proposal. The logic for that is simple. If you're going to merge two of anything, you better have some damn good reasons for why you think the end result is better. Those reasons werent there for me at the time when the decision had to be made.
"the desire to have active ownership"
I really believed in a hands-off approach to maxminis, thats why I quickly appointed Merric as the lead moderator. I knew I was simply not the right person to run the site on a day to day basis. This is a site I wished would be around, so I started it, and I've tried to protect it, but I never saw myself as the person to run it. And I think for 3 years that approach worked perfectly fine. So from the site management standpoint, active ownership was totally unnecessary.
Now from the technical standpoint. Many people do not realize that Jai had the same access as me. He was using my account in fact at the hosting company. So from the technical standpoint, in order to fix things, active ownership was totally unnecessary.
If it was truly the desire of everyone to have "active ownership", why such a strong reaction when the owner actually *does* step back in and takes control of the situation? Jai didn't want active ownership. He wanted to be the owner.
"After the discovery of the database being larger than allowed size and the increase in hosting costs"
There's no such thing as "the allowed size". Its more like the allocated size. You go over, you have to pay more money, thats all. And how was that Jai's concern? He had never payed the hosting costs and was never expected to. He was using this to try to pressure me into giving up ownership because I was paying the bill.
The point here is to understand Jai growing desire to gain ownership of maxminis starting in late 2005. Now lets get to your questions.
Question: It appears that you failed to respond to the mods from December 2005 to March 2006, despite the fact that the site was facing critical maintenance issues. Why? First off, "appears" is the right word to use here. During this time Jai and I had emailed back and forth several times. Originally our discussions were about ownership, as the site hadn't slowed to a crawl yet. As we got closer to March, the site's performance became a real issue, at which point I got more involved.
Question: If it’s true that from October 2005 to June 2006, as your September 8, 2006 post alleges, Jai "let the users of maxminis suffer and had the admins scrambling to delete threads needlessly," where were you – and what was your responsibility – while this was happening? I did not say Jai "let the users of maxminis suffer and had the admins scrambling to delete threads needlessly," from October 2005. I said that October 2005 was the last time posts were moved from the "in use" table to the "archive" table. October 2005 was the point at which maxminis began its long slide downhill, although late last year it wasn't noticeable. It became noticeable this past spring when the site started to crawl.
Question: Did you attempt to communicate with Jai regarding his downloading of the Maxminis database? No, I was putting the pieces together at that point of what had happened with the database to cause maxminis to slow down so badly. That was just icing on the cake and I knew at that point I had to take FTP away from him.
Question: If such communication took place, did Jai offer an explanation for his actions? Its highly probable that he did this to help Kevin and him write and test the conversion scripts to dump maxminis into hordelings. This all happened before they ever approached me with their proposal for the "merger".
Question: Jai's December 7, 2005 post notes "the discovery of the database being larger than allowed size." Is there any relationship between this discovery, the thread archiving issue, and the push for upgrades from Jai and the other moderators?
Do you have any idea why Jai didn't archive threads?
Is there any indication that Jai attempted to archive threads?
As I mentioned above, there was no "allowed size".
What was of critical importance was the archiving of posts from the "in use" table to the "archiving" table. From October 2005 until his leaving in July 2006 he didn't move any posts from the "in use" table to the "archiving" table, which was a major contributor to the site's slowdown and OBDC errors. Why he did not is only something he can answer. Since there were posts in the archiving table from prior to October 2005, archiving was taking place prior to that.
Jai also didn't seem to discuss the speed problem with the hosting company, although he contacted them to create the backup for him of the database to download.
When I talked to them about it, they moved us to a new database server, and combined with the movement of some posts to the archiving table, those two simple steps improved speed greatly. Maxminis was quite fast before it was switched to the new platform. However, I had already bought a new server and hosting services earlier and therefore decided to move forward with the switch anyway.Jai’s December 7, 2005 post indicates that he was communicating with you regarding problems with the database. Why did it take until June 2006 for you to notice that threads hadn’t been archived?I was happy when Jai offered to help with the maxminis database because I am a mechanical engineer, so every time I have to write some code I typically have to relearn how to program, having forgotten a lot of it since the last time. I also didn't know much about databases. Jai, on the other hand, is a professional web developer. When he started taking care of the database, I was happy because he was more suited to the task than was I. As time went on, I trusted he was doing the right things for maxminis. When maxminis started falling apart, I started prodding around in the database again. I noticed some things that didn't look right. I bought some books and read up, posted on forums, talked to some consultants, and basically got myself up to speed on things that I had left to Jai. Thats when I found out what had happened. Jai never it brought up.
Was it Jai’s responsibility to write the scripts that enabled you to archive the threads?
The forums software has built-in functionality to archive the threads. When I was prodding around, the database "in use" tables were so full I couldn't move anything before the operation timed out. I got a book on SQL and in an hour I had written a script to archive the threads directly from within the database. It is entirely possible that Jai encountered the same problem with the forums software back in October. But what I dont understand is, if he did, why didn't he write a script to do the job as I did (it would have probably taken him far less than an hour, given that he does this stuff for a living and I don't), or ask Wuzzard or I to help him? He could have also said "I don't know how to (or want to) fix this problem, I'm stepping down" but he didn't.
Question: Given that you viewed this act as a gross abuse of trust – an offense worthy of banning – why did you wait until July 6, 2006 (40 days later) to remove Jai as database administrator? I didn't immediately know about it, as I said. The backup occurred in May and the only way I found out about it was noticing the 375 MB backup file in the directory on the hosting company's server and asking them about it around the time when I was checking out the database.
Also, why did you allow Jai to retain his status as moderator, given this act? Despite my anger with his actions, I still to this day have an appreciation for the work he did here. Besides writing the trade interface and the gallery, he added the icons that everyone likes to the forum posts, put in the minis as they were released, moved the site from Access database to SQL Server, and added little features here and there, fixed peoples avatars, etc. He certainly was responsive to people's bugs that needed fixing. If he had been upfront and said "I want ownership otherwise I am leaving" I think everything would have worked itself out.
Now Mr. Quest, some questions for you. Why when I do I search for posts by you, all I can seem to find recently falls under 3 categories:
1) warmongering in the form of attacking me endlessly
2) an advertising link to hordelings
3) a tournament announcement
Why shouldn't I ban you for introducing a bunch of noise into this website that we could surely do without? Should we expect that you will contribute something about the games we discuss here at some point?
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 09/11/2006 3:17 PM |
| Posted By PatEllis15 on 09/01/2006 8:21 AM Webmaster you wrote (sorry, haven't been able to figure out how to quote...) Pat, ... Clearly this approach has not worked. I have angered a number of important people like yourself, doubt, fenris, aesoph, kiddoc, and others. I am at a loss about how to repair the damage. If you think it will help, get all of maxminis vets to ask me whatever questions they want in a single thread. I will answer each one. Make sure to get them all, even the nasty ones, as I don't want there to be any lingering resentment or unanswered questions.
Posted By Host on 09/11/2006 2:59 PM
Why
shouldn't I ban you for introducing a bunch of noise into this website
that we could surely do without? Should we expect that you will
contribute something about the games we discuss here at some point?
So, perhaps you don't actually want the questions after all? I think JQ is asking questions a lot of people want answered.
You seem to want people to judge you on your intentions, while a lot of people are judging you by your actions. Whether you choose to take responsibility for it (or not), and like it or not, your actions heavily contributed to a rather large split in this community. What it looks like from the outside is that - after the fact - you're demonizing Jai for all the problems of maxminis, and you're trying to ride in on a white horse.
And I think a lot of people don't buy it - especially when the tale is punctuated by doublespeak.
I guess that makes me a warmonger, too ... well, I've been called worse, thats for sure.
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To the list with you!
Email: robby.anderson@yahoo.com | H/W List | My Trade Interface | Reference Thread/Completed Trades
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 09/11/2006 3:24 PM |
| I would not say that Jai wanted ownership of the site, rather that he wanted different ownership of the site.
You're obviously a little angry at some of the attacks against
you. I'd be to. However it is still a good idea to tie your
hands up for a good 10-20s before you write.
Your last post didn't need the last 6 lines, and would be alot more effective without them.
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My online store http://store.hoardsters.com
Use quick search to see scans of every stat card! | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1341 Posts
| | 09/11/2006 3:57 PM |
| Posted By Host on 09/11/2006 2:59 PM
Now Mr. Quest, some questions for you. Why when I do I search for posts by you, all I can seem to find recently falls under 3 categories:
1) warmongering in the form of attacking me endlessly
2) an advertising link to hordelings
3) a tournament announcement
Why shouldn't I ban you for introducing a bunch of noise into this website that we could surely do without? Should we expect that you will contribute something about the games we discuss here at some point?
1. I don't recall attacking you. I don't recall any mods cautioning me for making attacks, which are against Maxminis' posting guidelines.
2. I'm not sure what advertising link you are referring to. If you mean the link to my Have/Want list in my signature, then that's a bit of a stretch.
3. I have posted on Maxminis announcements and reports from every local tournament held in Bloomington, IN since we started in January 2006. I currently have an announcement posted for our September 16 tournament, and when it is finished, I'll post a link to the tournament report. Then, I'll announce our October tournaments and follow suit. Would you prefer that I don't post tournament announcements and reports on Maxminis?
I have made 1316 posts on this website. I've contributed quite a bit to the discussion. If you feel that my actions warrant a ban, that's your call.
And my name is Jim Ansaldo. What's yours? | | | |
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Vash
Underboss
1995 Posts
| | 09/11/2006 4:20 PM |
| Posted By johnny.quest on 09/11/2006 3:57 PM Posted By Host on 09/11/2006 2:59 PM
Now
Mr. Quest, some questions for you. Why when I do I
search for posts by you, all I can seem to find recently falls
under 3 categories:
1) warmongering in the form of attacking me endlessly
2) an advertising link to hordelings
3) a tournament announcement
Why
shouldn't I ban you for introducing a bunch of noise into this website
that we could surely do without? Should we expect that
you will contribute something about the games we discuss here at some
point?
3. I have posted on Maxminis announcements and
reports from every local tournament held in Bloomington, IN since
we started in January 2006. I currently have an announcement
posted for our September 16 tournament, and when it is finished, I'll
post a link to the tournament report. Then, I'll announce our
October tournaments and follow suit. Would you prefer that I
don't post tournament announcements and reports on Maxminis?
So, webmaster? What is wrong with posting tournament reports
and announcements? It is information that the community likes to
read and see, as it helps with multiple situations.
1) shows the online community what the metagame looks like in this
particular part of the country, and may even introduce new warband
ideas to players in other parts of the globe.
2) Announces to *new users of maxminis* tournaments that may be in
their area. Let me look at this for a second, Mr. Quests
FLGS was one of the places that received your wonderful postcards
advertising Maxminis. New player A goes to the same FLGS and sees
said postcard. He then comes here and sees Mr. Quest post
a tournament announcement, they go back to said FLGS and play at
tournament and get showcased in Mr. Quests Tournament Report.
It's like some kinda plasticrack circle of life we got going here.
Now if you used the postcards to add a bigger userbase to strengthen
the community, then you should welcom JQ's tournament
announcements. If you frown on his announcements, then I question
your postcard motives.
Noise? Hardly.
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Champion of the Alhoon and my called shot for Unhallowed
Blood War Called Shot: Phoenix
Trade withe me! | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4462 Posts
| | 09/12/2006 4:48 AM |
| Fortunately we now have active ownership . It's really too bad that the process of getting here came at the cost of a rift in the community and many of our most active members migrating to another site . For many, it's probably too late to heal that rift, but I think this discussion will help some others understand what happened, to move on and get back to obsessing about minis .
QFT.
The crux of the issue for me is that I don't think that the online DDM community had reached the critical mass needed to support 2 fan sites. I think that the "quality" of Hordelings content has increased dramatically since July, while it has decreased dramatically here a MaxMinis. BUT, the total content of both sites is less than what JUST MaxMinis was in June!
Less Content = Less healthy communities.
JQ: Thanks for an EXCELLENT timeline summation of what happened.
Webmaster/Host: Why are threatening members? JQ IS an established member of the community. He is one of those people whom I expet to see in a big thread sharing his thoughts. He also printed up several maps for the DDM Community Draft at Gen Con 05, without which, the event might not have gotten of the ground.
It appears that this has boiled down to a he said/I said situation. Ego's are involved, and there is no going back in time. You said in your lengthy response that no one ever offered to help defer costs of the site. YOUR WRONG. That actually goes to show that you really weren't even lurking at this site. Enworld raised thousands of dollars to pay for a new server with donations. I and others repeatedly made statements on a regular basis that we were willing, and ready to donate to help get MaxMinis moved to a new server, or to pay fo bandwidth. Of course that was when I spent 2 hours a day on MaxMinis. Now, it's about 10 minutes a day.
I hope you understand what a mess this situation is, and that it hasn't helped the site. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it....
Thanks for the answers you've provided. I'm moving on...
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
11225 Posts
The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
| | 09/12/2006 4:57 AM |
| Posted By PatEllis15 on 09/12/2006 4:48 AM
You said in your lengthy response that no one ever offered to help defer costs of the site. YOUR WRONG. That actually goes to show that you really weren't even lurking at this site. Enworld raised thousands of dollars to pay for a new server with donations. I and others repeatedly made statements on a regular basis that we were willing, and ready to donate to help get MaxMinis moved to a new server, or to pay fo bandwidth.
Pat E
The reason why no one contacted you directly Webmaster with this offer is because you weren't here. And let's face it, for a long time, you weren't around. That was your choice and I'm not going to beat you up for that choice, but it's the truth. You yourself stated that you left the site in the hands of others (Jai, Wuzzard, Merric, etc).
As I said, I would like to live in both worlds. I see no reason why people can't visit both sites, but Pat is right. The content on both sites combined is not what it was on Maxminis alone prior to July. I don't know what to do about repairing the community. I'm at a loss. | |
Ghendar - Now with 51% more snark
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider.
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2385 Posts
| | 09/12/2006 5:21 AM |
| Many people stepped up and posted in numerous threads that they would donate money to help out maxminis. The thing was though, most people wanted to do it with people they knew and had built up trust with. Its just another example of the disconnect from the webmaster and the actual community. With an active Webmaster, I'm sure he would have seen it and could have cut his costs down dramatically. Lots of people talked about wanting to donate, and I bet through all the donations all the new equipment would have been paid for, and probably a lot of the upkeep costs.
I honestly look over everything, and the Webmaster's only claim to fame per se is paying for the cost of running the site. Which could *easily* be done by anyone, or even a group of individuals. The constant work and maintenance of the site is what a lot of us related to the most and were the most grateful. We saw people like Jai, Merric, etc busting their asses off to make sure the site ran smoothly. And then someone come along and basically touts that they paid for the site. Well honestly, I know lots of people who could have done this and *would* have done this, if they were able to. The upkeep, which not everyone can do, was given to others, instead of the webmaster of the site doing it.
"Should we expect that you will contribute something about the games we discuss here at some point?" is one of the most amazing responses I've seen yet. What in the world do you, the Webmaster, discuss here about the games? When have *you* talked about D&DM, SWM, etc lately. Since this whole fiasco has happened, you have mentioned these games only in the context of how you want to upgrade the boards. But when do you actually talk about the games "we" love and discuss here? I just find the attack on JQ just amazing. I don't agree with everything that was said about Jai, but I understand you trying to explain your reasons, etc. The attack on JQ was just downright wrong. Threatening to ban him was just sad to see.
As I've said before, look over your past involvement in the site. Can you honestly blame anyone for wanting people who have actually contributed to the site to run it? It makes sense that people we have interacted with and see actually do things to help the communitu, to run it. John Doe comes out of nowhere, says "Hey I paid though!", and starts just making changes willy nilly really wasn't what everyone expected. or really wanted. I think a lot of the community was hoping to see the people who contributed over the years to keep contributing because they are the ones we've built up trust with and have proven themselves.
I dunno, this thread has just been downright amazing. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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ilarue
Underboss
1259 Posts
| | 09/12/2006 8:40 AM |
| Webmaster,
Thanks for taking the time to respond and try to clear up what happened. The reason I for all intensive purposes left maxminis and went to hordelings is because of your treatment of Jai. If Jai hadn't archived threads since October, why not contact him and say that you think that archiving some threads would speed up the forum. I think if you had asked him, would gladly have done it. By "locking him out" with out first contacting him, you alienated him and many members of the board. Has jai made mistakes yes. Did he offer to step down after the conversion fiasco happened yes, however there was an overwhelming response from the members of the community that we understood he was only human, and that we still wanted him helping out with the site.
Posted By Host on 09/11/2006 2:59 PM
December 7, 2005 Jai wrote:
And I tell you, not once has anyone offered me a dime for it- not Jai, Kevin, or anyone else.
I know that to be completely untrue--I and many others have posted in threads saying they would gladly donate money to keep the site running. I also know there were discussions of maxminis merchandise were the profit would go to keep the site running. So I don't know how you can say nobody ever offered to help out with the cost. | |
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes--Who will gaurd the guards?
Champion of the Commoner Mob Leader | |
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Lab Monkey
Commander
4135 Posts
| | 09/12/2006 8:55 AM |
| Posted By Host on 09/11/2006 2:59 PM
And I tell you, not once has anyone offered me a dime for it- not Jai, Kevin, or anyone else.
There are two ways to read this portion of host's post and I'm not sure which he intended:
1.) No one has ever offered to help out with the costs of financing maxminis.
2.) When Jai, Kevin, etc. proposed the merger (which the webmaster clearly felt was an attempt to acquire ownership of Maxminis), they never offered any money to buy maxminis from the host/webmaster.
People seem to think that the host meant #1 above. If that was his intended meaning, I agree that this is inaccurate. I for one have offered on numerous occasions to donate money to keep the site running. Many other people (as is clear from this thread) have also offered to make donations.
However, I suspect that the webmaster meant #2 above. He felt that the merger was really an attempt to take over ownership of Maxminis and no one offered him any compensation for this, despite his substantial investment in keeping the site running for 3 years.
I just wanted to point this out that we may be misreading this portion of the host's statement. I have more to say, but I have to run to a meeting right now so I'll try to chime in again later today.
Cheers,
LM
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Have: Cat; Want: Storm Giant
Champion of Anything Dragonlance
Before trading, please check the Disputed Trades Thread | |
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Forum Admin
Host
Sergeant
596 Posts
| | 09/12/2006 9:21 AM |
| Posted By PatEllis15 on 09/12/2006 4:48 AM
You said in your lengthy response that no one ever offered to help defer costs of the site. YOUR WRONG. That actually goes to show that you really weren't even lurking at this site.
Pat,
can you please be more careful about paraphrasing what someone says? Now you got 2 or 3 people following your lead probably on the words you wrote instead of mine. Look what I said:
"Maxminis as an entity isn't worth much. I have probably poured more money into it then it could be sold for. To date, I have poured thousands of dollars into it, in case anyone is wondering. And I tell you, not once has anyone offered me a dime for it- not Jai, Kevin, or anyone else. "
I was talking about an outright sale of maxminis. Nobody ever said "hey, I'll buy maxminis off you for $500", for example.
The "merger" proposal http://www.hordelings.com/future.php basically boils down to this:
1) We're going to transfer maxminis into hordelings. (see the section "Functions of the Site")
2) We're going to call it hordelings (see the section "Name" and remember they contacted me with this proposal the month after it was written)
3) We're going to remove you as owner and add ourselves (see the section "Site Ownership"- note "Ownership of all code that is specific to the site will be retained by the original authors" i.e., Kevin and Jai, since the site is now running on only Hordelings code)
Note that the "merger" plan was called the "Hordelings/maxminis MIGRATION plan". In fact, the word "migration" was used 26 times in the document.
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Vash
Underboss
1995 Posts
| | 09/12/2006 10:02 AM |
| Sigh, I really shouldn't post in this thread anymore, but I can't help it.
Am I the only one who noticed that Host, you only seem to be responding to replies that seem to give you the chance to besmirch Jai, Kevin, Hordelings or others, or that you can twist around to make you look like the good guy. Not once have you touched on:
Your inactivity on this site pre-June (or whatever month it was you decided to 'come back') and how we as a community view it as it relates to our trust in you.
Why posting tournament reports or links to outside websites aren't considered to be 'contributing to the games we discuss here' and maybe even to the point of being bannable.
Why you're threatening respectable members of the community who are only doing what you initially asked of them (asking questions, no matter how venomous).
Implementing changes 'on the fly' without community imput and not informing them until after the fact. And honestly, how can the mods that you 'hand selected' enforce Merric's policy of politeness when the individual who owns (we'll use owns here because you seem dead set to remind us that you own this place) Maxminis (i.e. you) can't be polite himself? | |
Champion of the Alhoon and my called shot for Unhallowed
Blood War Called Shot: Phoenix
Trade withe me! | |
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ilarue
Underboss
1259 Posts
| | 09/12/2006 10:18 AM |
| Posted By Host on 09/12/2006 9:21 AM Posted By PatEllis15 on 09/12/2006 4:48 AM
You said in your lengthy response that no one ever offered to help defer costs of the site. YOUR WRONG. That actually goes to show that you really weren't even lurking at this site.
Pat, can you please be more careful about paraphrasing what someone says? Now you got 2 or 3 people following your lead probably on the words you wrote instead of mine. Look what I said: "Maxminis as an entity isn't worth much. I have probably poured more money into it then it could be sold for. To date, I have poured thousands of dollars into it, in case anyone is wondering. And I tell you, not once has anyone offered me a dime for it- not Jai, Kevin, or anyone else. " I was talking about an outright sale of maxminis. Nobody ever said "hey, I'll buy maxminis off you for $500", for example. I never read pat's response before I posted mine, and yet I interpreted it the same way he and many others did.
After reading Lab Monkey's interpretation, I can see what you meant to say, but you should be more careful in saying what you mean in a more clear way so that it can not be read differently than originally indented.
Have fun with your site. I have moved on, I just felt the need to voice my opinion one last time.
ersonName w:st="on">Isaac LaRueersonName> | |
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes--Who will gaurd the guards?
Champion of the Commoner Mob Leader | |
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lalato
Underboss
1546 Posts
Urbana, IL
| | 09/12/2006 10:47 AM |
| So Webmaster... I'll start the bidding at $300 for maxminis. Anyone offering $350?
--sam
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I'm in Urbana, IL | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 09/12/2006 10:51 AM |
| Posted By lalato on 09/12/2006 10:47 AM
So Webmaster... I'll start the bidding at $300 for maxminis. Anyone offering $350?
--sam
maxminis.com
as a name itself, with no following at all, is probably now worth
$2-5k. Given the following it has it is probably worth much more.
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My online store http://store.hoardsters.com
Use quick search to see scans of every stat card! | |
| E.C. Organizer
galneweinhaw
Commander
2646 Posts
| | 09/12/2006 11:22 AM |
| Well, I have lots of stuff to say, but not much of it is helpful []
So, I dug deep and tried to find something constructive. I'm not sure how successful I was, but here goes.
Preamble: I think it has become clear that mis-communication is at the crux of this issue, even within this thread, it has become difficult to see posts objectivly and to post objectively. We have also determined that Quickclot isn't going to work here, because the issue is a lot more serious and the repercussion have gone alot deeper than maybe anyone of us originally thought they would.
So I would like to ask a question, and perhaps being a conversation with you, webmaster, in order to...do whatever we are trying to do here.
I would like to start with a simple question. I will try not to lead or imply anything, and I would appreciate if you did the same with your answers.
Are you willing to consider the possibility that Jai's main goal was not to takeover the ownership of maxmins, and that perhaps this interpretation was a result of a misunderstanding in communication? | |
Join the Eternal Skirmish Campaign.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr Seuss | |
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lalato
Underboss
1546 Posts
Urbana, IL
| | 09/12/2006 11:30 AM |
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Posted By Gnolaum on 09/12/2006 10:51 AM Posted By lalato on 09/12/2006 10:47 AM
So Webmaster... I'll start the bidding at $300 for maxminis. Anyone offering $350?
--sam
maxminis.com
as a name itself, with no following at all, is probably now worth
$2-5k. Given the following it has it is probably worth much more.
Hey, that's just an opening bid. If other people want to bid it up higher that's up to them.
--sam
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I'm in Urbana, IL | |
| Thoth, Gatherer of Knowledge
MerricB
Underboss
2350 Posts
Australia
| | 09/12/2006 3:51 PM |
| | Is Kevin Tatroe willing to sell hordelings.com? | |
Merric Blackman
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griffrat
Commander
3506 Posts
| | 09/12/2006 7:23 PM |
| Well, I know I have been busy and not able to keep up with the "devolution" of things. Nor the posting I once dedicated.
It is a sad, sad state when there is such a rift between various people that all have the same goals (a better community), the same interests (games) and the ultimate goal of trading the items of the first two.
Besides this turning into a he said she said type third grade rumor thread. I see some of the same faces here that gives me hope. Granting Ghendar a mod status is a spark of the old world hope. But, in all honesty, the flame of hope is slowly buring out.
I have since early July maintained a profile on both sites (here and the one that starts with 'H'). I dare not mention anything as there was a rather stiff warning of eternal bannishment for something along this line.
For me, I was looking at this as a means to stay intouch with people that had left and had no intention of coming back to MM. But, as time is passing and little is being done to stop the loss of life blood (aka the old guard)
I don't know if the post card will be enough to re-coup the loss of dedicated people who brought this site to the life and the level of joy many of us that posted here hours on end.
But, I know this. As long as there is an air of open and honest talk then things will return to the middle. But like merric used to say all the time, be polite. this still holds true.
So, with that webmaster/host et al. Thanks for continuing with the open talk and the answering of questions. Questions are good, the answers are the key and through them we can unlock the problem...... | |
Ambassador of FUN!!! | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4834 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 09/12/2006 9:28 PM |
| Posted By griffrat on 09/12/2006 7:23 PM
So, with that webmaster/host et al. Thanks for continuing with the open talk and the answering of questions. Questions are good, the answers are the key and through them we can unlock the problem...... So long as we all remain polite.
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Knight Warlord a.k.a. Commander (#32) in only 6 months. Where's my pie?
Champion of Dwarven Thunderlashers
Knight of the Large Dire Chicken
Have/Want List
Trade References | |
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Can of the Cave Beer
Commander
2838 Posts
| | 09/12/2006 11:33 PM |
| Posted By Host on 09/12/2006 9:21 AM Posted By PatEllis15 on 09/12/2006 4:48 AM
You said in your lengthy response that no one ever offered to help defer costs of the site. YOUR WRONG. That actually goes to show that you really weren't even lurking at this site.
Pat, can you please be more careful about paraphrasing what someone says? Now you got 2 or 3 people following your lead probably on the words you wrote inst |
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