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The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 11197 Posts



 The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
 | | 09/13/2006 10:49 AM |
| Posted By Chozyn on 09/13/2006 10:43 AM
I think this thread should die because all it is seeming to do rehash hostilities that are non-constructive to hordelings or maxminis.
While I agree that the hostility may be non-constructive, I believe this thread is serving (or perhaps has served) a valuable purpose on the site. I see the concept of this thread as highly constructive.
I would dearly love to move on and at some point I will. I would love even more dearly to see two minis websites become one and we all move forward as one united community. My decision to accept a mod position was based on the idea of trying to keep Maxminis as the site I loved so much pre-July.
| | Ghendar - Bringin' the snark!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider. I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|  Forum Admin Host Sergeant
 596 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 10:57 AM |
| Posted By sienar on 09/13/2006 10:37 AM I must have missed something in the timeline. Are you saying Jai stopped supporting Maxminis before he lost access to the admin password?
Jai lost access on July 5th. The ODBC errors and slowdowns were present for several months before that.
I had always understood Jai did not want to make major changes to Maxminis without approval from Webmaster, from whom communication was slow. Jai in fact did not contact me on a regular basis for approval of major items. If he did, he would have contacted me when he decided to download everyone's personal information in the maxminis database to his home computer.Â
I made 2 simple changes to fix maxminis. 1) move some threads to the archives 2) ask the hosting company to move us to a faster server
He contacted the hosting company directly to ask for them to prepare the database copy for him, without asking me for approval. He could have asked them in the exactly the same way to move maxminis to a faster server.
As I have stated, moving threads to the archive table had been done by Jai prior to October 2005, without any approval from me. Its not a major change to maxminis to continue to archive posts. He simply stopped doing it. | | | |
|  Chozyn Warrior
 213 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 11:06 AM |
| Posted By Ghendar on 09/13/2006 10:49 AM Posted By Chozyn on 09/13/2006 10:43 AM
I think this thread should die because all it is seeming to do rehash hostilities that are non-constructive to hordelings or maxminis.
While I agree that the hostility may be non-constructive, I believe this thread is serving (or perhaps has served) a valuable purpose on the site. I see the concept of this thread as highly constructive. I would dearly love to move on and at some point I will. I would love even more dearly to see two minis websites become one and we all move forward as one united community. My decision to accept a mod position was based on the idea of trying to keep Maxminis as the site I loved so much pre-July.
I think has served is the correct term. Now it is, to me, back and forth banter where someone gets defensive and attacks, the original attacker gets defensive and counter attacks, and all it succeeds in doing is making more people angry or defensive.Â
Then there are just people who are stirring the pot just to try to bring more tension.
Do I think everything has been handled well... No. Do I think one party is at fault for all of this... No. Do I think everyone will one day live in peace and harmony... No. | | Join the fun of the Eternal Campaign
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| Vash Underboss
 1995 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 11:10 AM |
| Posted By Host on 09/13/2006 10:57 AM Posted By sienar on 09/13/2006 10:37 AM I must have missed something in the timeline. Are you saying Jai stopped supporting Maxminis before he lost access to the admin password?
Jai lost access on July 5th. The ODBC errors and slowdowns were present for several months before that. I had always understood Jai did not want to make major changes to Maxminis without approval from Webmaster, from whom communication was slow. Jai in fact did not contact me on a regular basis for approval of major items. If he did, he would have contacted me when he decided to download everyone's personal information in the maxminis database to his home computer. I made 2 simple changes to fix maxminis. 1) move some threads to the archives 2) ask the hosting company to move us to a faster server He contacted the hosting company directly to ask for them to prepare the database copy for him, without asking me for approval. He could have asked them in the exactly the same way to move maxminis to a faster server. As I have stated, moving threads to the archive table had been done by Jai prior to October 2005, without any approval from me. Its not a major change to maxminis to continue to archive posts. He simply stopped doing it. Hmmm, ya know what, events are finally starting to come together in my meaty little noggin. And for once I'm gonna post in this thread without attempting to put anyone on any spot. This is an FYI, if you will.
This isn't exactly hidden knowledge so hopefully I'm not stepping on Jai's toes by saying this.
If October is the timeframe I'm thinking of, then that is the point in time in which Jai did indeed attempt to archive a LOT of the threads on maxminis, however in doing so he made an error that caused the entire database to wipe itself, losing everything. He managed to find everything and return the forums to normal, but was so afraid to touch anything that he stopped attempting to archive, and even wanted to step down as Maxminis codemonkey. Instead, I believe, he made personal backups of the forums in case this ever happened again he could easily bring everything back up to standard. That's around the time when all the major slowdowns started to occur. And instead of risking total Maxminis annihilation, they (jai and the mods) resorted to deleting old, uneeded threads/posts.
And for the record, there have been countless times that jai(and others) have attempted to contact you about this site (and I'm talking prior to the 'merger proposal') and you have failed to respond. In fact, I believe he even attempted to contact you concerning the paragraph I typed out above (don't hold me to that, I don't completely remember, but I'm sure someone on here will verify) Anyone else would have done the same as him if dealing with a Host that does not repond to emails.
Just an FYI for you Highlander.
| | Champion of the Alhoon and my called shot for Unhallowed Blood War Called Shot: Phoenix Trade withe me! | |
| The Great Choco Monster Ghendar Warlord
 11197 Posts



 The Dark and Forbidding Lands of The Necromancer.
 | | 09/13/2006 11:11 AM |
| Okay, in the interest of moving on, I'm going to say, thank you to everyone for asking and answering questions that I firmly believe has helped communication. You can all come to your own conclusions about who is right and who is wrong but I'm taking a step toward helping MM try to stay great while at the same time still contributing to Hordelings.
| | Ghendar - Bringin' the snark!
Champion of the Spider Eater with rider. I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM How many times in life do you get to eat your own Cthulhu? - Posted By Pedro on 03/31/2008 2:29 | |
|  Forum Admin Host Sergeant
 596 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 11:16 AM |
| Kevin has saw fit to take down the "merger" proposal that he originally posted on hordelings. I guess as people actually started to read it and realize it was really a migration plan (as it is titled), they started to feel a bit mislead by Jai and Kevin. My favorite line of the whole document was the last line:
"We expect data migration to begin by June 5th, 2006 and be complete by June 12th, 2006."
I was expecting this to happen as I knew once people started to actually read what I read, many would feel the same way about it, so fortunately I made a PDF of it before Kevin took it down. Here's a link to it:
http://www.maxminis.com/themigrationplan.pdf
I stopped the "merger" proposal, which would have had the following consequences:  a) maxminis.com would cease to exist as we know it; instead it would be redirecting to hordelings    b) features available now to us that currently only appear on maxminis (forum features, chat, trade search, blogs, polls, dreamblade game, etc ) would cease to exist. Kevin could add some of them to hordelings, but its unlikely he would add all of them or that they would work the way they work on maxminis.   c) You would now be using hordelings. If you didn't like the hordelings interface, you wouldn't be able to go to maxminis instead. You would no longer have a choice of sites to visit.
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| Vash Underboss
 1995 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 11:22 AM |
| Posted By Host on 09/09/2006 5:29 PM
This is exactly how this mess started in the first place-Â Â a few people that carelessly blurt out whatever is on their minds without taking the time research what they are saying.Â
Posted By Host on 09/12/2006 9:21 AM
can you please be more careful about paraphrasing what someone says?Â
Posted By Host on 09/13/2006 11:16 AM Kevin has saw fit to take down the "merger" proposal that he originally posted on hordelings. I guess as people actually started to read it and realize it was really a migration plan (as it is titled), they started to feel a bit mislead by Jai and Kevin. My favorite line of the whole document was the last line:
"We expect data migration to begin by June 5th, 2006 and be complete by June 12th, 2006."
I was expecting this to happen as I knew once people started to actually read what I read, many would feel the same way about it, so fortunately I made a PDF of it before Kevin took it down. Here's a link to it:
Actually its worst then I thought. Kevin not only took down the original "merger" document, but he now has the link to the original document redirecting to a different, altered, document that is NOT the original merger proposal.
Oh the Irony..the horrid horrid irony.
| | Champion of the Alhoon and my called shot for Unhallowed Blood War Called Shot: Phoenix Trade withe me! | |
| E.C. Organizer galneweinhaw Commander
 2646 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 11:33 AM |
| Posted By galneweinhaw on 09/12/2006 11:22 AM Well, I have lots of stuff to say, but not much of it is helpful [  ] So, I dug deep and tried to find something constructive. I'm not sure how successful I was, but here goes. Preamble: I think it has become clear that mis-communication is at the crux of this issue, even within this thread, it has become difficult to see posts objectivly and to post objectively. We have also determined that Quickclot isn't going to work here, because the issue is a lot more serious and the repercussion have gone alot deeper than maybe anyone of us originally thought they would. So I would like to ask a question, and perhaps being a conversation with you, webmaster, in order to...do whatever we are trying to do here. I would like to start with a simple question. I will try not to lead or imply anything, and I would appreciate if you did the same with your answers. Are you willing to consider the possibility that Jai's main goal was not to takeover the ownership of maxmins, and that perhaps this interpretation was a result of a misunderstanding in communication?
| | Join the Eternal Skirmish Campaign.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr Seuss | |
|  Forum Admin Host Sergeant
 596 Posts




 | | *censored* glumag Warlord
 5968 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 11:41 AM |
| Â a) maxminis.com would cease to exist as we know it; instead it would be redirecting to hordelings
You mean as we KNEW it, because the maxminis I knew has changed completely, it is no longer what it used to be and that is without their "merger" or interference.
On a simple note, PDFs can be edited. PDFing something is not setting it in stone. | | Trades >> Completed: 49 | Bad: Ø | Pending: 0 | Trade & talk Live on IRC! SERVER: irc.psionics.net CHANNEL: #maxminis | |
| sienar Sergeant
 636 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 11:45 AM |
|
It's not listed there, but Kevin did mention in very obvious thread that there seemed little use in keeping the merger document up. He relinked it to the current Road Map of Hordelings, not some 'Migration Plan Swap', as you are inferring it to be.
At this point there are two sites. There never was a migration, so there doesn't need to be a migration plan anymore. There is Maxminis, for better or worse. There is Hordelings, for better or worse.
Not sure it matters at this point, but I can tell you there was no malicious intent behind Kevin's original merger proposal. | | [http://www.hordelings.com/frontend/profiles/profile.php?user_id=22] | |
| The Defenestrator AesophDarkfable Warlord
 5628 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 11:47 AM |
| Those two documents are 100% different for a reason. The first was the merger plan. The second is the CURRENT roadmap for hordelings once we figured out the merger was no longer a possibility. You can attempt to state that they are different versions of the same document etc, but they are not. The second has nothing do with maxminis others than trying to please those of us that were once here that left. As for your accusation that we would have no chat, dreamblade game etc, we didnt have those and most of us didnt ask for those. We always had a chat, it was called IRC. The dreamblade game still has me worried that you are going to bring the wrath of WoTC/Hasbro lawyers down on fan sites since you felt the need to post stats on it. These were not things that we had to miss if there was a merger. All we wanted was a better community. Still alot of questions left to be answered. Alot of them I really want to see answered in particular those posted by Wayne in a simple yes/no format. You wanted us here. You named me as one of the people that have left with bad blood. Answer all the questions and not just the convient ones.  | | Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
|  Forum Admin Host Sergeant
 596 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 11:54 AM |
| Posted By sienar on 09/13/2006 11:45 AM
It's not listed there, but Kevin did mention in very obvious thread that there seemed little use in keeping the merger document up.
A main topic of this thread is why the merger didn't occur. The original merger document is what was presented to me and what I made my decision on. Suddenly Kevin swaps the original document out for some other document while we are discussing the original document.  If he was interested in people knowing the truth, there is no reason for him to do this. | | | |
|  Lab Monkey Commander
 4135 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 12:22 PM |
| I've been following this thread closely with the hope that it would heal some rifts, but we only seem to be moving further and further apart here. My goal here is to understand and to move on, so please don’t take my comments as an attack on anyone. The first document "themigrationplan" appears to be the original proposal to merge the two sites.
The second document, "migrationplanswap", is the strategic plan for Hordelings which was posted after you rejected the merger proposal (dated 7/23/06). Â
Given that the original proposal has been rejected and Hordelings is moving forward without a merger with Maxminis, to me it seems reasonable to take down the first proposal (it's essentially a dead document) and put up the new strategic plan. Furthermore, see the following quote:
Posted by ktatroe at Hordelings: I have pulled the old Merger Proposal document. It was being used out of context to vilify myself, Jai, and Chris Groves’ efforts to improve the community by merging (not stealing) this site and Maxminis—efforts that were rebuffed. Kevin clearly feels that the merger plan they proposed was being quoted out of context so he pulled it down.
So I'm not really clear on how doing that makes things worse than you thought. Based on the explanation you've given thus far, I think I understand your reasons of rejecting the original proposal, but I don't see what the objection or concern is here.
 Respectfully, LM
[EDIT: I didn't see the host's most recent post when I composed this, although I'm still not entirely clear on the problem.]Â
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| robby Sergeant
 918 Posts




 | | Gnolaum Sergeant
 854 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 12:54 PM |
| I accept your 3 facts.
There is another string of facts regarding the merger migration, that are ambiguous, I would offer:
1) You were inactive and nearly unreachable for a great length of time.
2) You felt that those to whom you had entrusted your site to have sufficient tools.
3) Those to whom who had entrusted your site did not feel they had sufficient tools.
4) Mods began discussions on a merger with Hordelings.
5) Before the discussions where finanlized, the public was informed of them.
6) You deemed the terms of the merger unacceptable and/or insufficiently developed.
7) Your mannerisms in doing so were offensive to some people.
If I were to to any one of these that has lead to this split in the community, it would be point #5.
| | My online store http://store.hoardsters.com Use quick search to see scans of every stat card! | |
| Felagund Sergeant
 922 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 1:23 PM |
| Posted By Host on 09/13/2006 11:54 AM
A main topic of this thread is why the merger didn't occur. The
original merger document is what was presented to me and what I made my
decision on. Suddenly Kevin swaps the original document out for
some other document while we are discussing the original
document.  If he was interested in people knowing the
truth, there is no reason for him to do this. Kevin clearly stated why he removed the document, as you can see in Lab Monkey's quote above.
It was being misused by you to make baseless attacks on Jai and
him. Is that what you consider truth to be? Presenting
out-of-context information to support your opinion? It's bad
enough that he has to put up with your ridiculous assaults on his
intentions with the merger. Accusing him of conducting a cover-up
is over the top, and outright offensive.
Furthermore, it is ironic that you should accuse him of such, when you
moved every thread regarding the community divide and the future of
Maxminis out of the General Discussion forum. I imagine you don't
want all of the members to see how you've behaved in this thread,
either.
| | Champion of Gnomes | |
|  Forum Admin Host Sergeant
 596 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 1:33 PM |
| Posted By Lab Monkey on 09/13/2006 12:22 PM Kevin clearly feels that the merger plan they proposed was being quoted out of context so he pulled it down.
Taking something out of context assumes you take part of a writing and present it. I presented a link to the complete document on Kevin's own website. He then changed the webpage of the original document to redirect to an entirely different document. This was very deceptive, as anyone clicking on the link I presented was under the impression they were looking at the original merger document.
The whole "merger" document itself is itself very vague and deceptive. http://www.maxminis.com/themigrationplan.pdf
Does it come out and say who owns the new site for example? No, it never says "Kevin and Jai will own the new site". Instead it says "Ownership of all code that is specific to the site will be retained by the original authors" and its up to the reader to weed through the document and try to figure out what that means.
It makes statements like "Since the goal of this document is to ensure the long-term survival of the community, and since it has clearly grown beyond the capacity of a single individual to pay for hosting" which are obviously false and deceptive, as I was paying maxminis bill and I never even brought up the bill prior to the time this document was written.
It says "Webmaster has not yet responded to requests regarding ownership of the name, so at this point, we plan to use the Hordelings name going forward" despite the document being written (and dated) May 2006, the month before the merger discussions began with me and the merger proposal was given to me.
On top of that it was pitched as a "merger" proposal when in fact it was entitled "the hordelings/maxminis migration plan", uses the words migrate/migration 38 times throughout the document, proposes to use the hordelings name, to move maxminis data into all hordelings systems, and ends with "We expect data migration to begin by June 5th, 2006 and be complete by June 12th, 2006."
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| E.C. Organizer galneweinhaw Commander
 2646 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 1:39 PM |
| Posted By galneweinhaw on 09/13/2006 11:33 AM Posted By galneweinhaw on 09/12/2006 11:22 AM Well, I have lots of stuff to say, but not much of it is helpful [  ] So, I dug deep and tried to find something constructive. I'm not sure how successful I was, but here goes. Preamble: I think it has become clear that mis-communication is at the crux of this issue, even within this thread, it has become difficult to see posts objectivly and to post objectively. We have also determined that Quickclot isn't going to work here, because the issue is a lot more serious and the repercussion have gone alot deeper than maybe anyone of us originally thought they would. So I would like to ask a question, and perhaps being a conversation with you, webmaster, in order to...do whatever we are trying to do here. I would like to start with a simple question. I will try not to lead or imply anything, and I would appreciate if you did the same with your answers. Are you willing to consider the possibility that Jai's main goal was not to takeover the ownership of maxmins, and that perhaps this interpretation was a result of a misunderstanding in communication?
| | Join the Eternal Skirmish Campaign.
Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. ~Dr Seuss | |
|  Forum Admin Host Sergeant
 596 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 1:49 PM |
| Posted By Gnolaum on 09/13/2006 12:54 PM
7) Your mannerisms in doing so were offensive to some people.
Perhaps, and for that I apologize to everyone.Â
I think this topic has been thoroughly exhausted, and many have expressed that they would like to move on.Â
So lets do that. I'm going to start a new thread entitled "How to punish the webmaster". Everyone may participate and offer up how to best punish me. At the end we'll hold a poll for the best punishment idea and the winner will get a Dretch mini and the title "Punisher" for a month. | | | |
|  Forum Admin Host Sergeant
 596 Posts




 | | 09/13/2006 2:34 PM |
| Posted By Wayne on 09/01/2006 2:39 PM My "yes or no" questions to the Webmaster:
(1a) Do you have any intention to make Maxminis a commercial site -- in any way -- in the foreseeable future?
(1b) Do you have any desire to do so?
(2a) Will you commit to keeping member information completely private from third parties for the foreseeable future?
(2b) If the answer to (2a) is "yes," will you fully commit now to an "opt in" model, should the answer change in the future? (I.e., commit to maintaining privacy, unless and until a given member affirmatively grants permission otherwise?) Im sorry guys, I honestly missed these legitimate questions, but Aesoph and galneweinhaw brought them to my attention via chat. Here are the answers:
1a) I'd like maxminis to pay its own costs which have now jumped considerably with the new faster hosting, the server I bought, the memory upgrade, the software, etc.  Beyond those expenses, No.
1b) No I have better things to do than try to milk a fan website for few dollars. I'm not even a web developer.
2a) Yes I am very sensitive to keeping private information private. I have never given any maxminis data to anyone.
2b) Yes.
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