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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
    
 | | 12/14/2005 1:58 AM |
| Edit: outdated announcement. Get the latest info here:
http://maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15031
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Most likely starting in January, certainly not before, I intend to organize regularly scheduled Vassal tournaments. The plan is to set up indiviual games in much the same way as in the Eternal Campaign, or any Vassal campaign. Each week pairings will be posted and each player plays one game that week at any point during the week.
In general, the Tournaments will be standard DDM and DCI rules. As a default - though an individual tourney could always have it's own rules - the tourneys will be with Maps, 8 figure limit, and no speed 2 rule. The first tourney will be 200 pt, but standard formats will include 200 pt, 500 pt, Sealed, and Draft. Sooner or later, I imagine that other formats, like 100 pt and various unusual formats (like 250 pt, 1000 pt, and reverse constructed) will also be run. At present, the plan is for the games to be untimed.
If there's enough interest, I might even run more than one tournament concurrently. I also might cap the number of participants in one single tourney to 16, thus guaranteeing that the swiss rounds of a single tourney wouldn't take more than one month. Ideally for a good-sized tourney, like a 12-16 person one, there would also be a top 4 finals, though for everyone else a new tournament will always start a week or two after one ends. If we do manage more than 16 people, I'm open to debate as to whether one big, long tourney is better, or two smaller ones. One advantage to multiple tournaments at the same time is that the people who're so inclined can play in both, playing twice a week rather than just once per week. Also, two different formats can be run, so people can play their personal favorite format more often.
Basically that's all I want to announce. To bring up or reiterate a couple points that are open to debate:
- The current plan is to have players schedule a game at any point during the week, as in the Vassal campaign norm. Open to debate is the possibility of having some, if not all, of the tournaments be specifically played at a particular time each week. For example, 10pm EST on Thursday. Done this way, I'd also suggest a 2 hour time limit.
- Untimed or timed games? If timed, what length?
Stay tuned for more specific details eventually, but feel free right now to sign up or express strong interest in playing in the first Vassal tourney, 200 pt constructed, coming in January.
Oh yeah, and feel free to ask any questions, or bring up any suggestions you may have.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Veliq
Warrior
300 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 3:11 AM |
| | I'm always interested Ζ)] | |
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Aravis
Underboss
1155 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 3:17 AM |
| | I will DEFINATLY attend this. And love it all at the same time. Its another great idea from Dagni! Time to get crackin at those warbands..also the great thing is you dont have to have the minis!! Bwhahaahhahaha..bow before me. | |
Welcome to Eternal Crack...
"Corn is no place for a mighty warrior!"
Champion of the Frost Salamander | |
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eMpTy Kay
Underboss
1068 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 7:53 AM |
| First the question.
This is NOT related to Eternal Campaigns, correct? Just making sure.
I can see one problem with the timed format. Not everyone is as fast at typing, or have the same speed computers/connection. So it would be possible for one person to seem to be stalling when they do not mean to.
Also, unless the matches were scheduled for week-ends, I can see an assigned time to play causing conflicts when real life changes for people.
Whatever the answers are, I will have to think about this... | |
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Zippy
Underboss
1987 Posts
Whitewater, WI
| | 12/14/2005 9:43 AM |
| If timed, a limit on number of rounds is much more fair over Vassal than actual clock time, imo.
How would we protect warband chosen, with some people playing games before others [?] Could have people email their warband to you ahead of time so they could be listed all at once before games begin. | |
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Reference Thread, H/W List, Champion of the Catoblepas | |
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lurch_E_bean
Underboss
1058 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 10:50 AM |
| This sounds like a great idea. Not having to wait until next GenCon to go up against some of the big names around here would be a lot of fun. I'd definitely be interested in this.
I also agree that a set number of rounds would be better than an actual time limit. Things come up, especially for those with children, and you sometimes have to take a few minutes to deal with them. This was how I practiced for GenCon, and I found it to be an adequate simulation of the real thing. | |
Successful Trades (31) | Trades Pending (0)
12th Place in the 2005 Nationals, and I owe it all to the Minis Training Montage.
Champion of Celestial Giant Stag Beetles | |
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DaemonKain
Warrior
312 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 11:11 AM |
| I think this is outstanding, and I'll definately participate. I think # of rounds is probably the best way to go, though being that I have a decent connection, I'd be fine with time limits as well. The only complaint about round limit is that you can perfectly tune a warband, calculating their potential offensive output over time, etc, etc. Really, you can estimate that anyway, but round limits make it much more precise.
Why not do a blending of the two? Play for at least 1 hour, or six rounds, whatever comes last? That way my Balor/Frost Giant warband doesn't play games that last 15 minutes...
Also: Is there any way we could get some DCI recognition for this? That would really be something I'd appreciate, given that I have a very small number of players I normally get a chance to compete against. Vassal is really the only place I get regular games in. I'm not certain if this is against the letter of the DCI rules, others would know better than I. This might take special sanction, but who better than Dagni, Fenris, Kiddoc, etc to get that dispensation? | |
-DaemonKain
Proud Mascot of Team Amish | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 12:54 PM |
| | Im in | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Avatar of Skirmishes
tullywi
Sergeant
982 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 1:13 PM |
| Just going to sticky this for a while so it doesn't get lost in the EC.
Timed matches can work on Vassal. Yes it is a little slower typing and what not, but other things are faster (LOS, marking where you started movement, etc.). I tend to play slower on Vassal, but I've played some timed matches before and it is possible. Also, you will be playing the same warband each week without magic items or scenerios being introduced each week. This makes it all the more likely to run timed matches.
Having said all this, the suggestion of timed or minimum number of rounds sounds pretty good as well.
Thanks for doing this Dagni. It sounds like lots of fun. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 1:19 PM |
| Count me in for sure.
We could just use the hour time as a general guide though we need time to setup and all as well. I like 6 rounds or an hour whichever comes last. We could also make use of programs like Skype or Yahoo with voice chat. That would fix having to type all the time.
Getting DCI recognition is not possible as we have no proof of someone having the real figures or even that a player is who they say they are. I could log into Vassal with the nick Fenris and people wouldn't know any better that I wasn't him.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 1:49 PM |
| Many seem to think that a set number of rounds is better than a time limit, or at least that there should be a minimum number of rounds in addition to a time limit. This still leaves the question of whether or not untimed is better than any of these ideas.
If the games are played whenever during the week, at the players own agreement, then I would personally argue for untimed games. This avoids any question of online issues slowing the game, and allows for complete games, which in my opinion will be quite common in the post-War Drums era. Some real-life tourney games will only go 4 or 5 rounds, or whatever. But there will be plenty of others that go 12+ rounds, and still end 5-10 minutes early. I occassionally like to use a round limit as a tourney practice aid, but only for practice, and only when I have a good understanding of how long a typical game will go in the current metagame.
If there are any tournaments with a set weekly time to meet and play, then the goal of the time limit wouldn't be to simulate real life tournaments, or any such thing. It would be so that a player with only so much time would be able to commit to this weekly activity. In keeping with my first example, if a game starts at 10 pm EST, then with a 2 hour time limit, an East Coast player that has to get up at 6:30 the next morning can know that he'll be done by midnight. A round limit, unfortunately, doesn't help with this type of concern.
In fact, the whole idea of tournaments with a set time to play is for those who're too busy to be able to consistantly schedule a game if they're paired against someone in a widely different time zone, or if the other person doesn't happen to have the same one or two evenings free. I know at least one or two players who stopped doing Vassal campaigns anymore for these types of reasons. If everyone knows the time up front, than only those who do have that time free sign up. Likewise, someone who's pretty busy might be able to schedule around that meeting time, given that it's always the same each week.
At this point, even if I run any of these tourneys that meet at a set time, I would more than likely also run a tourney simultaneously that doesn't have a set meeting time. (Also, a set meeting time would be great for anyone who just wants to watch Vassal games.) Another idea relating to set time frame tourneys, would be to have that be the default time, but if one or both players can't make it, they've still got 6 days to make up the game. However, if that doesn't work out, whoever was able to make the official meeting time gets the win.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 2:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zippy
How would we protect warband chosen, with some people playing games before others [?] Could have people email their warband to you ahead of time so they could be listed all at once before games begin.
Sure... email me your warband...
I'm going to be playing, myself. So likely the solution will be some kind of web submission of your warband, where even I won't see it until everyone's submitted a band. I already intend to have a tournament website, so this will be a part of that. The website should also be able to generate boosters for Sealed, keep a record of what was generated while sending a email copy to just the one person who's opening the packs.
I think Sealed will be fun for the community. Anytime *after* submitting your final warband choice from your Sealed packs, you can post your pulls here on MaxMinis, and see what other people would've played. Since there's no cost to online Sealed, I intend the first Sealed tourney to have everyone open two new boosters before *every* round. That way, while there's precisely as much luck as before for each game, it doesn't persist between rounds. The only thing you bring with you to your second game is your own ability.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 2:11 PM |
| This sounds like fun.
Personally I'd be for untimed to the death battles, as long as they don't take an eternity.
And there's always the chance to change things from one tournament to the next. Some might be timed (rounds preferably) others untimed (my preference). | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 2:16 PM |
| As far as times for play we could also set a tournament day that is somewhat set so people can plan ahead and contact their opponents to get games in. It wouldn't have to be required but that'd make it easier to plan around.
I kind of question how we'd do sealed format unless we could come up with a generator that reports to an online log for each person. That'd be nice but who's going to make it?
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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scruffydude7
Underboss
1196 Posts
Rock Hill, SC
| | 12/14/2005 2:44 PM |
| I'm willing to face the probability of getting my butt kicked all over the the place to participate in a tournament. I have not participated in any constructed tournaments before, so this should be a good learning experience before I start. (Which I have been planning on doing sooner than later)
I'm in! | |
Champion of the Revenant
Knight of the Elf Duskblade
Complete Trades: Oni, Kidkach, Melrune, callidusx3 | |
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Darksteed
Sneak
151 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 9:09 PM |
| | I`m in for sure. | |
Only the mighty shall fall. | |
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doynus
Skirmisher
34 Posts
| | 12/14/2005 9:51 PM |
| Great idea if there are one i'm in for sure
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SilentG
Sergeant
616 Posts
| | 12/15/2005 12:43 PM |
| This sounds like it could be a lotta fun. I'll likely participate in some of these events.
Six rounds with a one hour minimum sounds fine. | |
Completed trades: Zarnof, Ehren37, Eric is God, griffrat, cavedweller, Kyrinn, Blade, Humble Minion, Noghri, Ilarue
Reference thread http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9114
Champion of the fiendish, dire milk-cow | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 12/16/2005 2:50 PM |
| | Assault? | |
I am not gone. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 12/17/2005 5:14 AM |
| I imagine some of the tourneys will be assault format. Not all of them I'm guessing. We can do theme ideas and other scenarios as long as they are chosen before hand. Doesn't have to get as complicated as the EC games are at times but perhaps using specific maps including some of mine could be something to try out. I'd like to do an 8 figure theme where each player has to have one figure from each set as well since there's 8 sets for the moment. We could do no rares tourneys too. Lots of ideas out there to take advantage of.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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Lord_Raven
Sergeant
391 Posts
| | 12/17/2005 10:30 AM |
| I'm in!
I think timed, either (6 rounds "prefered" or clock) is good - if not timed though it must be Assult to avoid a long boring game of chase... Assult at least gives someone a way to negate chasing around an Elf Spearguard with a Hill Dwarf Warrior all night long.
This is a great forum for real tourneys - those that live in Rural areas or isolated areas that want to play serious competition! I loved Gencon and can't wait for Winter Fantasy, but playing my local guys in tourneys, gets boring - i'm still playing the same set of guys with no new ideas!
Thanks for getting this started! | |
Winter Fantasy, Wardrums Pre-release Champion
**Proud Member of Team Amish!** | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2623 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 12/17/2005 10:42 AM |
| | From the sounds of it I've been living under a rock for a while. How do we do booster draft and sealed tournies??? | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
Knight of Golems
"This world is made for love and peace" - Trigun
"anyway..shadow..you've figured women out. KUDOS." - raye_kino16 | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 12/17/2005 6:21 PM |
| That's the only thing we really need to figure out. If we could get an impartial person who isn't playing to use some of the various generators for sealed boosters and make lists and email everyone with them that'd probably be the easiest thing. Or Dagni could do them for everyone else and someone else could do his. That's probably the easiest way actually. Or vice versa even. Since it's my idea I volunteer to make the lists for sealed boosters for everyone and Dagni (or an appointee) could do mine. The cool thing about doing this online is we can use any boosters we want. Harbinger, Archfiends, Angelfire, etc... I'm picturing Archfiends with Underdark with a chance to get Drizz't and Guenhwyvar or Rikka. Or a Large Silver Dragon and Medium Silver Dragon together. It could be a lot of fun and make for some nasty combos if people get some killer synergy.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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brez
Sneak
165 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 1:29 AM |
| | Sounds fun. I'll keep an eye open for it. | |
http://www.maxminis.com/hwlist.asp?user=brez
Completed trades (9): blob39, cavedweller, kyrin, Mercykiller, Mulkhoran, Meds, thatoneguy, unearthed arcana, Vimes | |
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Bleys
Warrior
272 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 9:29 AM |
| | I think round limit is the way to go. It definitely changes the strategy and BUILD of your warband. | |
All roads lead to Amber | |
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juice
Warrior
175 Posts
| | 12/18/2005 12:18 PM |
| | Any way to fit in players from a different time zone? [:D] Its GMT+8 for me! [:(] | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3747 Posts
USA
| | 12/18/2005 2:45 PM |
| Sounds fun. Count me in.
What about the effect of time zones (East Coast and West Coast players)? If there are enough people interestd in playing, maybe break into two brackets (east and central bracket, mountain and west coast bracket) for better having time to play at night.
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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CSchroder
Sergeant
407 Posts
| | 12/20/2005 6:11 AM |
| Sirohk, funny you should suggest time zone brackets as I was thinking the same. I think it really depends on how many people we have and from where they come from. We need to consider our friends in UK, Europe, Australia, Asia, etc. as well.
If we have enough people in different locales, we might want to have the brackets or divisions and then the winners of those time zones can play the winners of the other brackets.
I also like Dagni's idea of having set time(s) and only people that can't make those time(s) can sign up. This would allow watchers to know when to watch.
Friday and Saturday nights would alleviate the problem regarding work the next day for most (certainly not all) gamers. Saturday and Sunday mornings (early) might allow our friends in Asia, etc. to play. | |
Charles AKA The Beardless One, Proud Member of Team Amish | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 12/20/2005 2:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Assault?
Yes.quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
I imagine some of the tourneys will be assault format. Not all of them I'm guessing. We can do theme ideas and other scenarios as long as they are chosen before hand. Doesn't have to get as complicated as the EC games are at times but perhaps using specific maps including some of mine could be something to try out. I'd like to do an 8 figure theme where each player has to have one figure from each set as well since there's 8 sets for the moment. We could do no rares tourneys too. Lots of ideas out there to take advantage of.
R~
On the other hand, there are too many ideas out there to do them all. We'll occassionally do unusual stuff, but mostly I'll try to stick with simple, unchanging basics. Even slight changes to the format sometimes create huge changes to the metagame. That can be good if looking for variety, but that's not my primary goal with these tournaments. I feel that the Eternal Campaign more than provides that aspect - and that between 200, 500, Draft, and Sealed there's already a lot of variety here.quote:
Originally posted by Lord_Raven
I'm in!
I think timed, either (6 rounds "prefered" or clock) is good - if not timed though it must be Assult to avoid a long boring game of chase... Assult at least gives someone a way to negate chasing around an Elf Spearguard with a Hill Dwarf Warrior all night long.
Yes, Assault is less significant in an untimed game - but it's just as important, maybe more important. Assault is a great format, I haven't played a non-Assault game in forever, and don't particularly want to.quote:
Originally posted by ShadowLord XT
From the sounds of it I've been living under a rock for a while. How do we do booster draft and sealed tournies???
Ok. Let me explain a bit. First, a booster generator isn't difficult. Indeed, I'll probably go a bit farther, and create a *case* generator. (Basically the same, but exactly 4 of each common, either 1 or 2 of every uncommon, and no dupe rares in the 12 packs.) In addition to that, the plan is to have something like on Godemperor's website: You click a button on the website, and your boosters are randomly generated on the spot and emailed to you. His website does that same concept for magic items.
In addition, after everyone has submitted a warband, a logfile of every booster, for everyone to see, confirms that each person actually got what he said he got. It also allows everyone to analyze and discuss each other's Sealed warband building choices [:)]. I think that'll be one of the most fun things about these tourneys, and a great way to involve the entire MaxMinis community.
Draft is even easier. Since each booster gets shown to everyone right away, the generator can simply email all four people in the draft pod the booster pack. There's no concern over just one person seeing the booster, it's shown to everyone immediately.quote:
Originally posted by Bleys
I think round limit is the way to go. It definitely changes the strategy and BUILD of your warband.
I quite agree that it changes the strategy and build of warbands a lot. I don't consider that a good thing at all. If a lot of people really want tourneys with round limits, I won't stand in their way - but I don't much like the idea personally.
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I'll respond to more of these comments when I get time later.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 12/20/2005 5:07 PM |
| Well to be honest I'm not always excited about Assault format as much as you are. I play it enough but would like some change now and then as it gets pretty tedious especially in 12 figure format. Probably my distaste for the design of assault making the game more about how to get VP while denying the opponent from getting them instead of making it a good old battle to the death. Granted I know it was created to eliminate the turtling BS that some players have played in the past. That's as much of a lame strategy as some denial warbands. I'm not saying we should do crazy scenarios like the "Greased Pig Contest" I came up with for EC. Just somethings like a 8 figure format, one from each set required tournament. Or a Drider Sorcerer not banned tournament just to see how it fares in today's meta. Maybe a worst warband tournament where we do sealed boosters and build the crapiest warband we can for our opponent to play. Not something to do all the time, just once for S&Gs. Or as you said just occasional unusual stuff.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
925 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 8:24 AM |
| Dagni,
I'll play. I've never played no speed two rules, so that should be an education. Also, I should have the CPG modified to produce cases in the next few days. I'm implementing the selection algorithms along the lines we discussed, so it should work well for the purpose you have at hand.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
| 
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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lynchpt
Sergeant
925 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 8:38 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
And the CPG cuts and pastes better now too. Bonus!
Shhhh.
Just in the secret version you and Dagni have[:)]. Once I get the case update done, I will put the whole new package up at Merric's.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Lodgar
Sneak
120 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 3:20 PM |
| I would be interested in participating! I have limited exp with tourneys but would love to join.
Let me know, Thanks.
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/22/2005 12:45 PM |
| I like both timed and untimed options. I like the idea of time zone brackets. While I like the idea of a "default" time, this does open itself to potential abuse. I don't think anyone is so hell-bent on winning that they'd purposely dodge a match for the rest of the week if their opponent couldn't make the "default" time, but there is some potential there.
Anyway, great idea, and I'm in! | |
Rhane
"The focus is sharp in the city..."
Have/Want List
Reference thread
Avatar Thread
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Urban Druid
Warrior
253 Posts
| | 12/23/2005 12:55 PM |
| Please, count me in as well! A family replete with kids at home severely limits the time I could devote to RL tourneys, and I've been missing out...!
As an aside, I personally like the idea of timed assault games, but that can become a major problem online, especially if a "judge" isn't always watching to call stalling. In many timed online events, stalls are far too easy to blame on lag or a bad connection (both of which actually happen as well, further adding to the problem).
I guess that I'm in favor of the either/or proposition: game play halts after an hour unless fewer than six rounds have passed, in which case those are played through to the end... | |
*This post was recorded before a live studio audience* | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1789 Posts
| | 12/24/2005 10:40 AM |
| | I'm in for sure. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 12/27/2005 3:15 PM |
| Real quick update. I've been - and still am - quite busy with no small help from the holidays. But anyways, my current plan is to have the inaugural tournament start sometime during the second week of January. So about Jan 8th - Jan 12th. The first tournament will be 200 pt (Assault, no speed 2, 8 figure limit, maps, probably untimed). I may well start another tourney (likely Sealed) a week or two after the first one.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Bleys
Warrior
272 Posts
| | 12/27/2005 5:18 PM |
| Sounds fun, count me in fo sure
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All roads lead to Amber | |
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Drakkengi
Sergeant
890 Posts
| | 12/27/2005 7:51 PM |
| | I would definately like to be a part of this as well. I still need a little practice with Vassal but I think I'll be ready. | |
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