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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
    
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 09/13/2005 9:40 AM |
| Well this is somewhat of a large-ish topic.
Let's start by addressing the thread you referenced - I started that because over on the wizard's boards someone said they HATED tile placement and thought it was basically stupid, annoying and didn't produce nice looking dungeons. Personally I don't hate tile placement - I rather enjoyed it as it gave the game another layer. I accept that it slows things down though and its removal is overall a good thing for the game ... but I still LIKED tile placement.
Now on to the skill itself ... at the basis it is a visual/spatial skill. If you're talented in those areas you'll get a bit of a boost ... things will come easier to you than they do with others. Still, it also has a large disciplined and learned component and improving that will help you. So, let's start with the big pieces and let's assume we're talking assault.
The tiles you use aren't selected at random. They should represent a set of terrain that works well with your warband and have a clear purpose in mind. And this isn't "I want a magic circle in case I fight someone with DR" ... if you don't know which of your creatures you want to put on that circle and how, it probably shouldn't be one of your tiles.
The placement of the tiles is also not random. For many you may have some preferred placements that you've worked out ahead of time either in previous games or simply by messing around on a map. Maybe it's 6 squares from the opponent's long side, 3 squares from the back end ... maybe it's 16 squares from your assembly tile so you can get first turn tile points ... whatever.
The placement of tiles (when you're playing against someone good at tile placement) takes into consideration your opponent's and your remaining tiles ... and your opponent's warband.
Finally, it isn't a binary art ... just like copying someone elses warband, if you take their tiles along with you you've already got part of the work done (selecting good tiles for the warband). You can use Doubtofbuddha's/Derry's Snake Eyes band ... and if you take the same tiles they do you can trust that they work well enough with that band ... you're not completely handicapped.
So, the above says basically nothing. I'll give some generic examples.
When I select tiles I first start w/ selecting the right starting tile. I worked up a little doc for some of the local folks a while back on the subject and I won't repost it here - but you can read it at this link http://christophergroves.50megs.com/skirmish/article-assembly-tiles.html
It was pre-Angelfire and really pre-DK I think, but the concepts are similar.
Then you've got to select the remainder of your tiles. You should do this based on your band's composition and this will be a mix of tiles that shape the battlefield. Some of these constrict or allow LOS, some of these constrict or allow movement and some of these provide other features (magic circle). Now for some specific examples ...
As a general rule, I'm an aggressive player (this includes tile placement). For my 3 feature tiles, 2 will be simply to shape the battlefield around the strategic center that I want, the other is typically a tile I can use to punish an unwary opponent (musrhoom tangle or spike stones cave). If I'm running a lower-init band I'll probably be reacting more so I won't go as extreme w/ this tile and usually drop the spike stones cave ... the same holds if I'm playing a more skilled opponent. A more skilled opponent will not let me place the spike stones where I want and I don't want it to end up in a bad spot for me, so I'll leave it out. Against a less-skilled opponent I'm bringing the spike stones.
Some tiles allow movement and open up LOS ... these can be good for some ranged bands but usually not if you overload with them. You need to funnel folks through to prevent the ranged guys from overrunning your own warband. Good tiles to do this are the Intersection, Ancient Temple, Rock Shrine. These things open up huge LOS corridors ... Broken Fountain is another possibility, but not as optimal as the others.
Some tiles provide open LOS but have some movement hinderance. The most popular are the Mushroom Tangle and Medusa's Chamber (how many CG Graycloak bands DO NOT use the Medusa's Chamber I wonder ...). The Creeping Tangle and a few others do a half-way job at this.
Some tiles block both movement and LOS. Ok, only one really does this and that's the Treasure Room. It is a bunker.
Some tiles allow roundabout movement and have some hidey-holes ... Corridor, Blood Rock / Spike Stones, Rubble Room.
Some tiles have junky LOS (inconsistent) and poor movement restriction like the Abbatoir, Shrine of Justice, etc. These are often used only by bands that for some reason are REALLY counting on the terrain effect (they need the shrine or are capitalizing on crits ... maybe they are a Lareth build ... etc.)
Some tiles are orientation-dependent on the features they provide. This includes the Torture Chamber, Shrine (harbinger), Hall of Heroes, Zig Zag and End Game tiles. Put them one way, huge LOS block ... use them another way, open LOS. In either case they have movement and sight lines in one direction, blocked in another.
.................
So, all this information fits into your tool box when selecting tiles for your band and your placement strategy in-game.
For instance, at the Qualifiers I was using Orc Druid (cmd 2), Eye of Gruumsn (cmd 1), Orc Champ, Ogre Ravager, Cursed Spirit, Deathlock x2, Hyena x2, Orc Warrior x3. For this I chose the following tiles ... (going off of sketch memory here)
Assembly 6 ... I wanted dual-path deployment options - I've got 2 commanders and a large, fairly resilient creature. If I'm facing a Pyro I could lead w/ the Ravager without too much worry, else I'd probably peg the Cursed Spirit on the corner.
Treasure Room ... the bunker and general assault target. My speed 10 hyenas would go far in helping guarantee assault points.
Shrine ... multipurpose - you can use it as a shield to block off LOS to your starting tile or squeeze it in against another tile if you need to ensure you get assault points, etc. Fits in alot of places and can be used to really manipulate where the other person places their tiles.
Hall of Heroes ... I can create a protected corridor to reach my assault target or send half my forces to flank the enemy. Remember, I've got 2 commanders.
Now I've got flexible tiles that fit the warband.
So, in general I tried to (a) guarantee I would be even or up on tile points every round (b) protected myself against LOS bombs (I faced 3 pyros) (c) created corridors of command and movement I could use to move and engage the enemy.
If my warband were different (say a single commander 4) I'd probably have my guys more clustered and have different LOS needs (remember, I NEED LOS to my commanders from where the fighting happens). Maybe then I'd gone Torture, Treasure, Mushroom or Torture, Treasure, Shrine.
If I'd been running fliers, espescially a dragon (LSD or LRB) I'd have used the Musrhoom for sure and planted it on the opponents side of where the battle will take place. I'd want to junk up the middle and prime things for a breath weapon.
If I'd been running Inspired Frenzy I'd have probably used the Medusa's Chamber and some mix of Shrine / Ancient Temple / Torture / Intersection / Musrhoom depending on what I felt the meta would be. I want good LOS to my backfield so everyone is in command for the GMA but I don't want the FBs to get pegged at range as they are easy to hit.
So ... it isn't rocket science ... and I've really only discussed tile selection, not placement. I'm not sure how to really discuss that. Frankly, with the change to maps I wouldn't even start trying to describe that. If, however, the maps weren't coming I'd probably jump on vassal w/ Dagni, Doubtofbuddha and a few others and log a game where we just placed tiles and talked about it, then let others view the log. That might be easier than trying to explain. | |
Triangle DDM Skirmish Group | My Email | 45-ish trades and counting | Stuff for Trade
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 09/13/2005 11:58 AM |
| That's great stuff, Christopher. I've already saved the text to present to any new players I bring in.
If you ever want to tackle a treatise on tole placement, I, for one, would love to see it. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10300 Posts
United States
| | 09/13/2005 12:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Now on to the skill itself ... at the basis it is a visual/spatial skill. If you're talented in those areas you'll get a bit of a boost ... things will come easier to you than they do with others. Still, it also has a large disciplined and learned component and improving that will help you.
I am not a visual/spatial kinda guy. I can do calculus no problem, but if you ask me to tell you which of some illustrations is this other shape unfolded, I'll be there all day staring at the page. So, for me, while tile placement certainly is a visual skill, it can also be turned into an algebraic one (thank you Rene Descartes).
Admittedly, doing things visually is faster, and so I think certain kinds of folks will be much better at this than others. But, if you've got the time to sit down with a map and some tiles (yours and an opponent's), you can practice tile placement and keep track of the number of squares from one tile to the next. Given that all the figures move some number of squares, given that the half-way point is a certain number of squares from other tiles, etc., everything that the visually skilled can do intuitively, I can do using some algebra.
It took me a long time to develop rules for which tiles to place where, when and why, but once I picked up a few, and once I discovered a few tricks that others used (such as when to use hard-corner tiles, and why, when to use walled-edged tiles and why), I rather quickly learned which tiles had the greatest chance of being useful under any cirucmstances, and which tiles were particularly useful only with particular bands.
I'm happy that we're headed away from tiles. Sure, I won a few games basically on tile placement alone, but, this part of the game seemed to turn off a few players. Besides, I like new things, and right now, the printed maps are that new thing.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 09/13/2005 1:20 PM |
| Here are some common tricks as well that folks used / use:
http://christophergroves.50megs.com/skirmish/tile-tricks.html
Really though, to understand the overall strategy, it would be best to be able to watch a few folks pick and place tiles (and maybe even opening movement) for a few archtypical bands while discussing why they are doing each placement, etc. I think this is a dead topic though since maps are here for all intents and purposes. I know we're still using tiles locally, but it really does warp your head going back and forth. | |
Triangle DDM Skirmish Group | My Email | 45-ish trades and counting | Stuff for Trade
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 09/13/2005 1:28 PM |
| I agree with CG that tiles are a visual/spatial part of the game and that they are really great.
But I feel the same way about maps. The maps are just as visual/spatial in my opinion b/c you have different areas in which to set up, different objectives (VA's) to try for and your opponent's warband placement to still contend with. It's just slightly different than laying the field out as it is. | | | |
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 09/13/2005 1:28 PM |
| I agree with CG that tiles are a visual/spatial part of the game and that they are really great.
But I feel the same way about maps. The maps are just as visual/spatial in my opinion b/c you have different areas in which to set up, different objectives (VA's) to try for and your opponent's warband placement to still contend with. It's just slightly different than laying the field out as it is. | | | |
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