wicked cool
Underboss
2122 Posts
    
 | | 11/29/2005 5:05 PM |
| | is the hezrou a point denial piece. if so he doesnt go well with slaads?what about one of the 2 vampires instead | |
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Goldmoon
Sergeant
986 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 7:00 PM |
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I do think too that hezrou a point denial piece but I had been beaten Hezrou bands with Stone Giant with JA. And got beaten by 2xFB.Strange isnt it[:o)]
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 9:07 PM |
| Hey think I got it. How about pairing up 2 death slaads with ryld?
It gives you a whooping +8 for inits, a +4 for MCs like the tiefling, gives you fighting power as good as a 3 slaad band, and because you are not using a tiefling, gives you more points for tech pieces like more cursed spirits or trogs/taers. The death slaads also fly, helping to set up ryld's sneak attack. Using ryld also helps your death slaads activate first in the turn to get off their rend ability fast.
The more I look at it the more I like it. Why didn't I think of it sooner? | |
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ickthegreat
Warrior
291 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 9:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by evil_boy
Hey think I got it. How about pairing up 2 death slaads with ryld?
my only thing with this is that it does not leave a lot of points for fodder/activitions
other then that i think it might work out to some deregee. | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 10:01 PM |
| | But 2 death slaads with ryld actually costs 19 points less than 3 death slaads with tiefling, and has IMO less drawbacks. Tiefling cap was the weak link and easy points for your opponent, especially with rikka and the wizard tech. And you only have 20 points left to spend. With ryld, you have 39 points to spend on more pieces. It's like incorporating the 53pt death slaad and 21 pt tiefling into a 55pt creature that fights and acts as a commander. | |
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ickthegreat
Warrior
291 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 10:46 PM |
| i see your point. i did the math wrong in my head. so if you use this as the start of your army:
death slaads x2
ryld (comd)
What you fell the 39 pionts with? i was thinking something along the lines of this:
lolths stings x2 14
taers x3 24
that would give you 7 activtion and 199 points
the stings and the taers could be used as both fodder and as buddies for the slaads to help them hit. the taers could also help by stench. could be helpful in pulling off the deadly rend of the slaads | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 11/29/2005 11:09 PM |
| | but with Ryld you are paying for a commander effect you wont see much benefit from. | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 11/30/2005 12:12 AM |
| Its not a bad idea to drop one slaad and replace it with Ryld. Ryld's commander effect is rarely used anyway. I like the initiative bonus but you lose one chaos hammer and Ryld is a tad less durable. It might work though. I would fill it as follows:
Death Slaad x2
Ryld
Cursed Spirit x2
Timber Wolf x2
Orc Savage or Lolth's Sting
It would struggle more against CE quad than triple death slaads. Someone try it out and report back. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 10:20 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ickthegreat
i see your point. i did the math wrong in my head. so if you use this as the start of your army:
death slaads x2
ryld (comd)
What you fell the 39 pionts with? i was thinking something along the lines of this:
lolths stings x2 14
taers x3 24
that would give you 7 activtion and 199 points
the stings and the taers could be used as both fodder and as buddies for the slaads to help them hit. the taers could also help by stench. could be helpful in pulling off the deadly rend of the slaads
I think with the points saved, it would be a mistake not to include the cursed spirit. The CS and the stench creatures work well together. Having a -4 penalty to the rend is pretty significant.
How about changing your lineup to CS, 3x trog, orc savage? 8 activations, plus a nifty little savage to help deal with chaotic beaters. | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 10:23 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
but with Ryld you are paying for a commander effect you wont see much benefit from.
Well, it's not like you're using the death slaad's CE too anyway... [)]
IMO people use ryld for the initiative and not for its CE. Its CE is rarely pulled off, and if it does, it's just gravy, not something that you try to depend on. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 10:25 AM |
| The CE beaters have to hit AC 22 tho.. and several of them have pretty crappy to hits. Plus the added manuverability of flight might give them an advantage.
I think its agreed everyone has a bad matchup. How to minimize that for Death Frogs? Replace a frog with one of the big beaters (Ravager? for reach)? a ZWD to keep them busy / blocked off from where ever you are gonna put the Frogs? What about a pair of Swarm of Spiders and just pen down a beater for a while? | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 10:36 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
I still don't think that addresses the weakness of the Death Slaads. They match up poorly to CE and CG beaters right? To me that means you use Ravagers, Brutes, Savages, Berserkers and other pieces that can punish CE and CG low-AC, high-damage pieces.
Yup, but I don't think it is any less effective than a 3 death slaad band against such matchups. You have 1 less slaad to rend with, but in return you have the potentially greater damage from ryld (with melee sneak) with tech pieces to pull off the rend more easily than in a 3 slaad band. And the initiative boost from ryld gives you taht much more chance to attack first to rend or force an MC that CE beaters hate so much.
My worry is that if I use pieces that are great against the choatic beaters, I'll end up being lousy against the lawful factions. Having an ogre ravager that misses more than it hits in the band means that the damage output will drop too significantly that even the 2 chaos hammers will not be able to offset. | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 10:41 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
The CE beaters have to hit AC 22 tho.. and several of them have pretty crappy to hits. Plus the added manuverability of flight might give them an advantage.
I think its agreed everyone has a bad matchup. How to minimize that for Death Frogs? Replace a frog with one of the big beaters (Ravager? for reach)? a ZWD to keep them busy / blocked off from where ever you are gonna put the Frogs? What about a pair of Swarm of Spiders and just pen down a beater for a while?
Distracting pieces like the ZWD and spider swarm wouldn't work against chaotic pieces. They'll either bypass such pieces, which deal so littel damage anyway, or hack their way through them in the case of ZWD (it drops really fast against beaters). Besides, you'll have to engage with your frogs sooner or later, and once they do, your opponent will just proceed to beat on the frogs while the distracting piece look on.
I think the answer is what chris has said, high damage output figures like orcs and ogre ravagers. But whether that weakens the band too much against the lawful factions has to be tested out.
I have a feeling the 2x death slaad and ryld band would do better against chaotic beaters than expected. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 11:02 AM |
| | Fenris had mentioned that Changing out one frog with a red samurai gives you a bit more oomphf. | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2122 Posts
| | 11/30/2005 3:35 PM |
| does the band work with just one frog warrior
frog warrior
hezrou
another beater such as ravager
cs
stench fillers | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 11/30/2005 4:22 PM |
| I tried the Ryld idea as well. You run into some problems with it though. Ryld isnt' a bad beater, but he's not a great one either. And he's less durable than the D.Slaads, and doesn't rend or fly. Hence, once he moves up front (which he will have to do, as he's one of your three primary beaters), he's the target of choice.
As I said before, I, too like the red sam build. Really, the speed helps. | |
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Sunderland
Skirmisher
47 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 1:02 AM |
| I was playing around in bifur, and came up with this :
2x Death Slaad
2x Grimlock Barbarian
1x Tiefling captain
1x Cursed Spirit
2x Orc Warrior
I think the grimlocks help vs CE/CG beaters, and the death slaad's chaos hammer's will be upping the attack bonuses for the grimlocks vs. the lawfuls. If you need a tile grabber, I suppose you'll have to drop the cursed spirit, but I think the damage output is higher than other death slaad bands. | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 12/01/2005 9:24 AM |
| | Grimlocks are tricky units to run, in my experience. They lack survivability and if facing a reasonable AC, they choke. They're also no faster than the D.Slaads. Not necessarily a bad idea, but I'd generally rather have a single reliable beater than two subpar ones. | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 11:28 AM |
| Still not sold on the idea of a red sam, the red sam is so much less resilient compared to the slaads. The obvious choice would be to drop it fast, sonce it is both an easy target and also because it's damage output is the highest in the band, killing 2 birds with 1 stone and giving your opponent a relatively easy 40 points.
The red sam's relative lack of survivability matters little in CE quad where every piece is similarly lacking in resilience, and their damage output is so high it doesn't matter if they drop fast, the game would have usually been won or lost before that happens. But in a lower damage output band like 2 death slaads, the traditional CE beater is just easy points.
As for the grimlocks, it's risky at best. Against chaotic beaters, 1 whack could force an MC. Against lawful, the attack bonus is so low that even with the +4 to hit wounded creatures, it's still not enough to hit high AC pieces with any bit of consistency. As aesnath said, I would rather a single good beater in it's place than 2 lousy ones. If it had 65hp and a single attack but with higher attack bonus, that piece would rock, and make the balor playable too. But as it is, the grimlock just doesn't cut it.
So has anyone tested 2 death slaads + hitter yet? | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 11:52 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by evil_boy
So has anyone tested 2 death slaads + hitter yet?
Yeah, I have and you'll see a few other posts about it. It's a solid band, though not probably one I'd take to nationals, unless I thought the opposition was going to be overwhelmingly lawful.
The Red Samurai is only an easy 40 points if he's alone and you can commit two or more hitters against him. His advantages are his speed (compared to the Ogre Ravager), that he's not easy to take down with fodder, and that he has a slight advantage over the Angelfire hurters (Chraal and Justice Archon). | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/01/2005 3:16 PM |
| @Chris Groves
I think you are right - replacing a third slaad with Ryld isn't making it any stronger against CG/CE and only weakening you against LG/LE. Choosing the Red Samurai instead of Ryld is probably the same.
How about a quad with a slaad?
Ravager
Orc Champion
Red Samurai
Death Slaad
Tiefling
Orc Warrior x3 | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/01/2005 3:23 PM |
| How about this one:
Ryld
Orc Champion
Red Samurai
Death Slaad
Timber Wolf x2
Orc Warrior
Only 7 but still a modified quad. | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/01/2005 3:27 PM |
| Or this:
Death Slaad x2
Red Samurai x2
Timber Wolf
Orc Warrior x3
Weak on initiatives and MC but a lot of AoE stuff. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
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wicked cool
Underboss
2122 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 4:33 PM |
| how about
death slaad
ravager
bug champ
draegoloth
c spirit
orc skele
orc warrior
7 activations for 200
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The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/01/2005 5:05 PM |
| | I don't like the Draegloth or the Bugbear Champion. I would use another Death Slaad over the Draegloth. I would use the Tiefling over the Bugbear Champion. | |
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 5:41 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chad the DragonLordofAiur
I don't like the Draegloth or the Bugbear Champion. I would use another Death Slaad over the Draegloth. I would use the Tiefling over the Bugbear Champion.
Agreed. The Draegloth would be perfect with magic damage, furious spirit and all. | | | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2122 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 6:59 PM |
| | he gets magic damage with the bugbear | |
The ROCK layeth the smacketh down. Long live Farscape
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 7:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chad the DragonLordofAiur
@Chris Groves
I think you are right - replacing a third slaad with Ryld isn't making it any stronger against CG/CE and only weakening you against LG/LE. Choosing the Red Samurai instead of Ryld is probably the same.
Hmm... I thought the init bonus for using ryld would matter. Being able to get act first in a round of engagement is a huge advantage IMO.
Also, the points freed by using ryld allows more tech like trogs/taers and cursed spirits which helps with rending the chaotic beaters.
Sure, it is overall weaker against lawful, but I thought it is overall a rather nice little combination. It seems I'm the only one who really like 2 death slaads + ryld...
quote:
How about a quad with a slaad?
Ravager
Orc Champion
Red Samurai
Death Slaad
Tiefling
Orc Warrior x3
I suppose its nice to have a slaad around, but I keep looking at the 15 damage and thinking why not just use another CE beater with more oomph? And including the slaad prevents us from adding EoG which, to me, is the best gay partner for the orc champ... [)] Also, it forces us to use the ravager, which IMO has seen its day. I'll rather use 3x orc champ instead of ravager, red sam and orc champ.
Not sure if this is any better than regular quad, but time and playtesting will tell... But nice job there squeezing the death slaad into a quad build, I would have thought it too expensive to fit. | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 7:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by wicked cool
he gets magic damage with the bugbear
The draegloth is too expensive even if it had magic weapon. It's damage output is just too low for its cost.
The problem I think with the band is the very low attack bonuses on its 2 front-line hitters and the paltry commander rating. I personally never build a band without a CR of at least 3, and then only if my pieces have good saves or are fearless. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/01/2005 7:11 PM |
| Hmmmm.
Maximum Draegloth Silliness
Draegloth x3
Tiefling Captain
Orc Warrior x2
Timber Wolf
...ok so it sucks. But I bet it sucks in kind of a fun way. [:)] | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/02/2005 1:01 AM |
| | Actually I think Ryld is good with Slaads as you have better chances for full attacks and a rend. That said, the third slaad is stronger and rends don't happen very often anyway. Ryld and Slaads would be good in 500pt. | |
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