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Sirohk
Commander
3912 Posts
    
USA
 | | 12/04/2005 3:42 PM |
| In a LG warband using the Couatl (plus rest of warband as designed), would you be better to include Rikka or a Justice Archor?
Rikka
Cost = 31, Lvl = 5, Speed = F8, AC = 16, HP = 75, Att(Dam) = +15 (20 magic), DR, Resist acid/cold/elec, Waylay, 1 Spell
Justice Archon
Cost = 32, Lvl = 6, Speed = F6, AC = 19, HP = 65, Att(Dam) = +10/+5 (10 magic or Justice Strike), Bold (fearless when in command), Immune elec
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
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TroglodyteWizard89
Warrior
346 Posts
USA
| | 12/04/2005 4:08 PM |
| | Id go with the justice archon, you wont have to worry about its low save when under command by the couatl(elemental resistance and bold) he also has DR, and better AC. My main motivation to use the justice would be the fact it wouldnt need to make a moral check, if couatl is your only commander, rikka has 30% to make its moral, and F8 is a quick rout | |
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2632 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 12/04/2005 4:09 PM |
| | The rest of the band also matters. You could have a CoDA as a secondry commander. | |
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Slippy Fist
Skirmisher
48 Posts
| | 12/04/2005 4:26 PM |
| Rikka's save is harsh in her non epic form, I would definately choose the Justice Archon.
I cant say enough good things about her in epic form though. | |
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AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/04/2005 4:40 PM |
| | They aren't really comparable figures other then their cost. They play different and fill very differnt roles IMO. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3518 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/04/2005 4:42 PM |
| | If you're going to include just one, the Justice Archon is probably the safer bet, as long as you have a contingency for high-AC opponents. It depends on the structure of the rest of your band, though. If you can't afford to squeeze in a fast tactical unit, Rikka might look good (I wouldn't use her just to grab tiles, though--make her waylay ability matter). If your secondary commander has a great commander rating, Rikka's morale save isn't too much of a drawback, either. If you're building a band with three or four Justice Archons, though, I think you really should drop one in favor of Rikka. It just makes sense to open up your tactical options. | |
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jos1-1
Sergeant
829 Posts
| | 12/04/2005 4:51 PM |
| | JA is one of thos really good uncommands again, like the chraal. But with the JS and two attacks it can possible do alot more damage. | |
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Slippy Fist
Skirmisher
48 Posts
| | 12/04/2005 4:52 PM |
| quote:
If you're building a band with three or four Justice Archons, though, I think you really should drop one in favor of Rikka. It just makes sense to open up your tactical options.
Despite what I said above I would second this thought. If you dont currently have a JA in the warband, I would still go with the JA. | |
body like a jellyfish, mind like a scientist | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 12/04/2005 4:53 PM |
| | Also, Rikka is a guaranteed 20 damage each swing, with an attack bonus high enough to hit the high AC's. Justice Archons have poor returns on Chralls (the high AC and lower damage so Justice Strike does diddly). I don't no which I'd go with if I only had room for one, but I think dropping one JA for Rikka in a Quad Justice band is a solid choice. | |
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ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
| | 12/04/2005 5:20 PM |
| You can't compare two completely different figures which have completely different uses.
The Justice Archon is an anti-chaotic unit, it is meant to counter things like Orc Champs and Frenzied Berzerkers. It does so with gusto.
Rikka is a heavy utility piece. She has a high attack with high damage for hitting on Lawful pieces, and Waylay allows her to perform multiple roles, from commander/support piece assassination to flanking to tile grabbing. Most importantly, Rikka is unique and therefore can't be taken in multiples.
To answer a side question that very much relates to the original post - assuming you were asking "in a Couatl + multiple JA army, is it worth swapping out one JA for Rikka?", then I think the answer is yes, depending on the metagame. For instance if everyone is playing 3xChraal, then Rikka is a much better choice against that without sacrificing much power against low-ac hitters. | |
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Teach
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 12/04/2005 10:08 PM |
| Nightmoor, first you say, you can't compare the two, then you do. Hmmm... :)
I second what most people are saying. If you already have a JA or 2, go with a rikka. However, make sure you have a high commander rating so you can be fairly sure to win initiative, because she is pretty easy to hit. I ran her instead of a second JA in a band with a battleplate marshall and she was very good at controlling how my opponent played, forcing them to watch where they placed their commander as they moved forward to engage.
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Zippy
Underboss
1993 Posts
Whitewater, WI
| | 12/04/2005 10:53 PM |
| | I had not seen mentioned Rikka's SR - which may help you decide based on the rest of your band and how you play it. Most LG bands with couatl don't need SR, though. | |
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NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
| | 12/04/2005 11:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Teach
Nightmoor, first you say, you can't compare the two, then you do. Hmmm... :)
I have no idea what you're talking about. I showed pretty clearly how each piece is used totally differently. Not sure what post you read, but it certainly wasn't mine. | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 12/05/2005 12:38 AM |
| I think it also depends on your opponents and the spectators. Assuming your opponent is a player just trying to the game out, who would they rather play against? A Justice Archon or a Rikka? Also I'm sure my fiance, if i can ever get her to play, would enjoy using Rikka a lot more than a Justice Archon. [:p]
That being said, I kind of prefer Rikka. I like being able to hit with regularity, and running low save figures doens't scare me too much, as I'm used to playing CG Goliath bands. But, she does make a better tactical piece than the Archon. | |
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Teach
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 12/05/2005 1:25 AM |
| Nightmoor, that post never was meant to be published in the form it was. Stupid exciting end to a football game. Sorry. What I meant was that you said you can't compare them because they're very different pieces. And you're right you can't compare the base stats, but you can compare their uses and functions and roles in bands, and that's what you do with your post. So you did kinda compare them. That's what I meant by the very poorly worded first couple sentences of my post. Oh well.
Hmmm... what does this "preview" button do. Better not press it until i'm sure. :) | |
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TheDarklion
Sneak
131 Posts
| | 12/05/2005 8:49 AM |
| My Thoughts on JA vs Rikka is simply this.
If you are playing 1 you play JA.
If you plan to play 2 JA's or 3...sub 1 out for a Rikka instead. You won't regret it. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 12/05/2005 1:53 PM |
| There are actually a handful of 8 figure bands where, if you choose Rikka instead of a JA, you can get 8 activations instead of 7.
In general, the JA is better... but with Rikka, you get a lot of versitility.
1 - She's faster, which can be a big deal.
2 - She does have a meaningful healing spell which, in certain situations, can be useful.
3 - She's much more accurate than a Justice Archon and can do all her damage on a Move+Attack, which gives you different options as far as timing when and where she attacks.
4 - She's better at screening elemental damage in the event that you're NOT running a Couatl (rare these days), and if you are, she can move out of the zone and still have some resistances.
5 - Because of the Elemental and Spell resistances, Rikka's low saves aren't always as crucial... her Morale Save is the big fly in the ointment. Stuns, or other effects that bypass her resistances are also a concern, but these are a concern for the JA as well.
6 - Waylay isn't ALWAYS useful, but, since you have the option of using it or not, situationally, based on the map and the opposing warband, you can choose to take advantage of it when a good opportunity arises. Waylay also can mean that Rikka won't quickly route off the board, since she's starting on the other side of it.
If Rikka only shows up after combat is just engaged, it's tougher for the enemy warband to react to her and change targets in mid-battle.
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 12/05/2005 2:00 PM |
| You can't run Rikka instead of a JA unless you are running Regdar (ha!) or the Couatl, so most of the time (I would say all of the time) you are going to be including the Couatl anyway.
Otherwise, very good points YRM | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3518 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/05/2005 3:00 PM |
| What about 100 points? I notice that everyone is assuming 200 points. In a 100 point match, I think I'd prefer Rikka. Fewer opponents will have high damage attacks, against whom the JA shines, and more targets will be relatively soft, against whom Rikka shines. Maybe they're too expensive a combo for 100 point, though.
How about 500 points? Let's say you don't have room for Epic Rikka, but there's just enough points left to squeeze in a 30-ish point unit. Again, I'd rather have Rikka in this format. Sure, you have the opportunity to do insane damage with the JA, but you probably have to beat some pretty high ACs. I'd rather rely on the tech that Rikka's waylay ability offers and her higher attack bonus. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 12/05/2005 3:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
You can't run Rikka instead of a JA unless you are running Regdar (ha!) or the Couatl, so most of the time (I would say all of the time) you are going to be including the Couatl anyway.
Otherwise, very good points YRM
Yeah... that was pretty stupid. I don't know what I was thinking, but, good catch.
Do you remember that one warband configuration we talked about where I got 8 figs instead of 7 by using Rikka instead of a JA and you actually liked it? | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 12/05/2005 3:16 PM |
| Actually it was one that still had 7 figures but allowed you to use the Cleric of Order rather than the Village Priest, namely:
Cleric of Order
Couatl
Aspect of Kord
Rikka, Angelic Avenger
Justice Archon
2 Men-at-arms | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3912 Posts
USA
| | 12/05/2005 5:58 PM |
| Let's focus in a little on specific other figures & situation.
Say you're 8 figure limit, maps, running Couatl, Slayer of Dimiel, a good commander (ie CoDA or BPM for +7 to map selection, ini, and morale saves), plus filler, and you have to choose between only Rikka or JA as last piece. Whom do you choose? Does Rikka's Waylay give you more options for trying to gain flanking with the Slayer of Domiel in addition to other obvious benefits?
Any thoughts?
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/05/2005 6:34 PM |
| | I choose the justice archon, because if I'm running couatl/slayer/CoDA with only filler I need another hitter, and it needs to be one with better staying power than Rikka. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 10:19 AM |
| | If I were running a warband with multiple Justice Archons, I'd almost certainly swap one out for Rikka. As others have said, if it was a decision between a single JA or Rikka, it depends on the role you're trying to fill in your warband. | |
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TheDarklion
Sneak
131 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 11:29 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Actually it was one that still had 7 figures but allowed you to use the Cleric of Order rather than the Village Priest, namely:
Cleric of Order
Couatl
Aspect of Kord
Rikka, Angelic Avenger
Justice Archon
2 Men-at-arms
Have you tested this...it looks very interesting. Matchups/how it did?
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Crush your enimies, see them driven before you, and hear the lementations of thier women | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 12:23 PM |
| I've only play it once, and it was against a steel predator band. I had the match pretty firmly in the bag until I rolled a 1 on my attack roll on a piece and then a 1 on the Aspect of Kord's morale save.
It was kind of hard to recover from that. | |
I am not gone. | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 1:17 PM |
| | In the standard JA bands (3 JA, couatl, + support), Rikka allows you to to insure 1st turn tile points. Something LG doesn't have any easy time doing. That alone makes her a worthy substitution. One on one, I would find myself choosing the JA in most cases unless I was expecting a ranged heavy field. | |
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Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 1:46 PM |
| You know, this is a really interesting comparison.
I think the Justice Archon is a really elegant piece. Reactive, but elegant. It was designed to take advantage of an environment that had emerged where THE competitive figures were high damage, low AC beasts. A metagame puzzle piece to aid with the problem of faction dominance to one side--from the ouside looking in.
Personal feelings aside, I think Rikka is a more elegant piece. If she had a 2nd attack, even one at +5 for 10 damage, you'd rarely consider playing the JA, even if Rikka cost a couple more points. Rather than build an "OMG I play 7 of these!!!!!!!!!" type of figure, we could design a more subtle piece. My hope was that given some solid theory, good testing, and a bit of creativity, I could build her in a way that would anticipate shifts in the future metagame. Obviously things like Maps and the speed 2 rule come to mind, and particularly the assault format. In addition, she increases flexibility in a diverse metagame environment--particularly one where you have glass cannons, nifty ranged weapons, and even things like "requires commander."
Furthermore, I think that we are far more likely to see complex power increases of the sort that the Gith Monk + Young Master provide, rather than seeing a straight return to making figures like the Orc Champ.
Unlike the JA, Rikka isn't a piece, in any metagame, that you're ever going to want to build a band around (unless it's epic). However, as the game changes, I hope we've done an elegant enough job of designing her stats and mechanics that she always presents an attractive option to players looking to "out think" their opponents in some clever way.
Her overall usefullness will depend both on your capacity to use her, and on the current state of the metagame. Some figures are single-purpose figures. Their only job is to grab tiles, or hit things. Figures like the Drider are amazing not just for their stats, but also to plug holes in strategy, and to fill multiple roles. Folks looking to use her to fill a single purpose might do better looking elsewhere--such as figs like the JA. I hope we've done a good enough job designing her that she'll be comfortable filling several roles in warbands. | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2122 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 3:17 PM |
| i couldnt see a situation in which u wouldnt use waylay. I think its a great ability. with waylay its almsot better to let your oppnent go first in iniative and then take out the commander in the back. i like her in combination with monks
YM
coatl
2 giths
ricka
filler
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 3:27 PM |
| Rikka's better cuz she's half nekkid.
[:D]
Don't look at me like that, Kiddoc. You designed her.
[:X] | | | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 6:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
Her overall usefullness will depend both on your capacity to use her, and on the current state of the metagame. Some figures are single-purpose figures. Their only job is to grab tiles, or hit things. Figures like the Drider are amazing not just for their stats, but also to plug holes in strategy, and to fill multiple roles. Folks looking to use her to fill a single purpose might do better looking elsewhere--such as figs like the JA. I hope we've done a good enough job designing her that she'll be comfortable filling several roles in warbands.
First, Rikka gets a gold star for helping me win a Sealed Event. She was a great partner for the Aspect of Kord and Gith Monk. So, right there, I could never use her again and still love the mini.
Beyond that, she has a potential interesting fit with Drizzt and Guen (getting those bonus saves or scouting with Drizzt and taking your chances on Guen not being fearless).
Rikka could be interesting with an Archmage too, as she creates some real problems for a band that has to over-extend to threaten the Archmage.
Her resistances mean that her low saves don't matter vs all types of save inducing spells and abilities, and she is pretty good at hit and run and even charging.
You can count on Rikka.
- Being easy to hurt in melee by an enemy hitter.
- Being tough to hurt with area spells or elemental effects.
- Being tough to hurt by enemies lacking a magic weapon.
- Almost always hitting for 20 damage, while still maintaining high mobility.
- Being able to heal in a pinch.
- Being able to start with tile points in a pinch.
- Being able to change the way the opponent plays with his weaker commanders and support.
It's already obvious that she dies quickly in toe to toe with an Orc Champ, and that she's a little skittish, so you should plan on allowing for her to make a morale check and at least one rally attempt for a safe bet.
She's an interesting piece to the puzzle, and it's far more likely that the Gith Assassin Squad will be nerfed by a future piece than Rikka will. (A solid undead champion with blind-fight and high speed and accuracy perhaps?)
A map with lots of open line of sight, but difficult movement and other features that slow walking units (lava) could result in a more difficult situation for a GAS band.
Rikka should be reasonably good in a variety of bands on any map. | |
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northking
Skirmisher
21 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:29 PM |
| And just to throw my hat into the ring...
Rikka isn't a tank - using her effectively, especially her Waylay ability, depends on timing. I've found that she's most effective coming once combat is engaged and your warbands are locked together - usually about the 3rd round. This means that she's fairly useful on maps which feature few choke points and where her flight gives her maximum mobility. I've found her most useful on the Drow Outpost map where the chasms restrict ground movement, but where she can get LOS to charge potential targets.
Bring her on too early and you can be sure that you've just lost 31 points. Using her to grab 1st turn tile points is also a waste, since she's likely to be cut off, OOC and subject to all manner of morale checks. Against a Balor, you've just given your opponent another flying hitter. Best to hold her in reserve and bring her on to flank the enemies your JA's/Slayers/AoK have engaged or to take out the Chraal commander. Snake Swiftness is more useful with Rikka than JA's and her AoO's stand more chance of hitting.
Cheers | |
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Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11412 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 12/07/2005 10:58 PM |
| The Justice Archon is better in a general sense, because of so many direct advantages. Higher AC, bold, DR 5 to name a few.
Rikka is better when no full attack is available (i.e. moving and hitting), and when the creature being attacked has a high AC with low damage output. Too many constraints needed to get the most out of her. | |
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wicked cool
Underboss
2122 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:23 PM |
| | is rikka a assasin whose purpose should be to take out a commander with the waylay ability. Most people will keep commanders in back away from action . Could she waylay into comabt say 2nd or 3rd round wipe out commander while troops are fighting. She should be perfect for taking out the young master while the giths are engaged in combat | |
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