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Teach
Sneak
140 Posts
    
 | | 12/06/2005 4:05 AM |
| Much like fenris was able to use the green dragon to great effect in mirror chraal matchups, what do you think is the piece that would make one Gith monk band better than another while still remaining viable against other bands?
I was considering maybe a Marut (and 2x giths) as a decent piece to help in mirror matches. What do you guys think? What pieces would you use to gain an upper hand in a mirror match? | |
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 4:44 AM |
| I know Gith Monk x4 + Young Master is used effectively, and a lot of people don't seem to want to sacrifice that 4th Gith for a tech piece.
That's 180 points already. For an 8 activation environment, I'd probably throw in Eberk and a 4 point fodder piece.
The +1 AC is alright, and the +1 to saves helps out with the relatively low Commander Rating (for Lawful Good anyway).
Also, the healing and +1 to saves should really help Young Master a lot.
~John | |
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Dr.Cornelius
Warrior
338 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 5:08 AM |
| | Beware 3x Death Slaad warbands... | |
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One_Wing
Sergeant
494 Posts
London
| | 12/06/2005 8:38 AM |
| | In this case doctors do know best. Gauths in multiples are not your friend either. | |
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ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 12/06/2005 9:30 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by One_Wing
In this case doctors do know best. Gauths in multiples are not your friend either.
At first, I had thought so too, but doubtofbuddha posted rather wisely (I think it was him, anyway), that the Gauths are going to be in a world of hurt when the monks get up to them. And, given the speed of the monks, they can move up and remain hidden on most maps, without any trouble, and without sacrificing much.
You might lose a monk, but with level 9, you're not going to miss many saves, and, once they're based with the Gauths, the Gauths will be in serious trouble.
Dave | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 9:42 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by One_Wing
In this case doctors do know best. Gauths in multiples are not your friend either.
Both of these may be true in a "tiles" format where you can set up nasty LOS, but on maps I've had no problems at all using terrain to protect my approaching monks. Usually I can have them hidden at the end of turn 1, and on turn 2, I can typically base any mini(s) I want on the entire map.
That means that Death Slaads have to provoke an AoO to move away and use their Chaos Hammer, and take 20-30 damage and a DC 18 stun save in the process.
I have yet to find any tech that replaces the 4th Gith Monk. I know some folks prefer the Couatl, and I can't say that taking the Couatl would be a mistake. Adding a Justice Archon in place of 1 of the monks is also a viable solution, though you definitely lose some of your threat range. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 10:37 AM |
| In our local tourney, the 2 monk bands (both going 2-1 - losing only to a spoiler band) both had sub in the Slayer of Domiel for the 4th monk. the double points for its first kill made the difference in at least 1 fight. Its a solid piece and has the potential to make a world of difference in the scores.
Imagine football with a rule that says "the first touchdown your tight end scores is worth double".. | |
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Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 11:05 AM |
| I'm really surprised that I haven't seen the traditional Lich-Golems band mentioned as a possible counter for the Monks.
Lich-Golems actually stand to gain quite a bit by moving to the 8 figure, no-speed-2 format. In fact, that drop in figures lets you add something really nasty to the band, like stench, or curse aura.
The traditional Lich-Golem band, in its heyday, suffered from two problems: Overwhelming amounts of efficient fodder across the board (these choked lanes for the Golems, and provided worthless targets for the Lich, as well as tying up the Lich if need be) AND tile placement. Tile placement may have been the single biggest weakness of the Lich-Golem warband. Ask the guys that ran it at Gencon a couple of years ago. Even with good placement, that commander 2 bonus wasn't winning many setups, and with the right planning, it was just way too easy to box those golems in, or cut down lines of sight for the commander to the strategic center of the board.
I won my games against them because they weren't able to bring all their resources to bear on me at once, and I wore away at their fodder in slower matches. and protected my own core pieces with awesome tile placement.
The advent of the assault format, maps, and faster matches could prove to be quite a boon for Lich-Golem bands.
The nice thing about the band is that both the commander and the main tanks are immune to crits, stun, and flanking. In addition, the Golems can hit with regularity, and reach 2 is an even better bonus. The golems also have a decent AC. Throw in a figure with stench/curse aura, and you can really force the Gith monks into a precarious position, particularly if they choose to base the Lich.
The Lich gets maximal usage out of his spells in the new map + assault format, as those 45 points of automatic damage will take down just about ANY tile grabber. Or, one pound from a Golem and one EMM can quickly force the MC. The DC 17 save on paralysis is not an auto-success for the monks either.
One other thing I've noticed is that the Lich-Golem bands tend to prefer the same type of map that the G.A.S. bands do. And certainly no map yet released has the same awful effect on a Lich Golem band that a treasure room + mushroom tangle + spiked stones setup could (or any of the other various nasty tricks). Moreover, in a straight Commander 3 vs. Commander 2 matchup, Lich-Golems isn't quite at the deficit it used to be against commander 4's and 5's--which can help it out both in the map and side-selection issues.
Finally, the Lich is immune cold, the golem's have a level of 11. I hear these things are "good" in the current metagame against other matchups. May not be great, and may not be viable 4 months from now, but for now, it's not a bad combination to have. Even when clearly out-matched by other CE teams int he past, the Lich-Golem band was a scary matchup, and was involved in several of my most difficult matches. It doesn't appear to have truly horrendous matchups, but probably still takes a pretty good pilot to work it to maximal efficiency. | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 11:30 AM |
| Also the lich/golem's biggest enemy is gone from the format. A lone drider in the CE bands would let them dominate against the highly unmanuverable clays.
The problem remaining is you need a consistant way to gain tile points with them, and adding a lone wolf skeleton or something similar isn't going to be enough. As the golems can't get up quick enough to provide support or releave pressure. With tiles, you could position a "safe" spot for your tile grabbers. On maps the spots are pretty much all at risk on turn 1. If you could come up with some way to completely deny your opponent tile points, it may be a workable solution. | |
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 11:33 AM |
| | I must admit I hadn't considered Lich-Golem bands recently. Haven't seen one piloted since...February of this year maybe? Thanks for the reminder. | | | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 11:45 AM |
| | I continue to find myself regretting selling/trading off a few of my better extra figures. Maybe I should have kept my extra LSD and Clay Golem. :P | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 12:52 PM |
| Lich/Golem is nice, but against 4 Gith Monks, you gotta be very careful. On a map like Mithral Mines, where the monks can approach from a variety of directions, you'll be hard pressed keeping them away from the Lich. When they arrive, they can still drop a combined 80 damage in 1 round (even with the immune critical), killing the Lich.
I know I sound like a broken record, but I still haven't seen a really bad matchup for YM+GMx4. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 12:56 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
In our local tourney, the 2 monk bands (both going 2-1 - losing only to a spoiler band) both had sub in the Slayer of Domiel for the 4th monk. the double points for its first kill made the difference in at least 1 fight. Its a solid piece and has the potential to make a world of difference in the scores.
Imagine football with a rule that says "the first touchdown your tight end scores is worth double"..
Out of curiosity what was the format of the tourney, Maps or Tiles? Also, what was the spoler band?
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Lord_Raven
Sergeant
391 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 1:19 PM |
| Ok so what would be a decent warband build for an 8 fig Lich/Golem build...
Base package is:
64 - Lich
56 - Golem
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120 pts used.
Other pieces to support this:
a second Golem = 56 pts - this is also another slow big base - could be real trouble stepping on each other.
a Red Sam = 40 pts - nice breath weapon good for those crappy high AC's - but if Couatl is main fig - would totally nurf this option - most likely make the save and take nothing.
really needs a ranged flyer to help get behind the main force?
perhaps a Mounted Drow Patrol = 27 pts - this has some potential to get behind the lines and strike weaker targets?
or you could go the way of the Drow Arcane Guard = 25 pts - conceal 11, and spell resistance - cold orbs - empowered burning hands - melee reach 2 This piece has real potential...
of course you want a couple of Cursed Spirits to flank and help negate saves...
Finish out with some fodder - zombies or skeletons seems appropriate.
So a build I have come up with goes like this... (no really just made it writing this)
Lich Necromancer
Clay Golem
2x Drow Arcane Guards
2x Cursed Spirits
2x Skeletons
200pts - 8 activations
Would love to hear other ideas for builds though?
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Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 1:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by rhane
I know I sound like a broken record, but I still haven't seen a really bad matchup for YM+GMx4.
This seems to be a common statement lately. I sincerely hope that for all of our sakes, and the sake of the game, that this is simply not true. It would be a crushing setback to the much-improved balance of competitive play, to have one band suddenly become so dominant. Even in the days of CE dominance, there was a tremendous amount of variation (Liches, Red Sam's, Ogre Ravager, Orc Champs, Driders, Orc Warriors, Abyssal Maws, EoG's, LRD's, Orc Druid's, and even the occasional Hill Giant) in warbands. If one band, consisting mostly of two figures, suddenly becomes THE dominant force in competitive play, it will be a dark day for the design team.
I have no idea if this is just a passing fad or not, or if there are other competitive bands out there that just haven't emerged yet to show their resilience across multiple matchups... But I know if they only decision I have to make going into high level competition is: "What do I substitute for the last Gith Monk so I have an advantage in the mirror match," The game will be worse off for it.
Again, lets just hope that the environment is robust enough to provide a host of choices, within and across faction, for players to field in a competitive format. | |
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 1:28 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
quote:
Originally posted by rhane
I know I sound like a broken record, but I still haven't seen a really bad matchup for YM+GMx4.
This seems to be a common statement lately. I sincerely hope that for all of our sakes, and the sake of the game, that this is simply not true. It would be a crushing setback to the much-improved balance of competitive play, to have one band suddenly become so dominant. Even in the days of CE dominance, there was a tremendous amount of variation (Liches, Red Sam's, Ogre Ravager, Orc Champs, Driders, Orc Warriors, Abyssal Maws, EoG's, LRD's, Orc Druid's, and even the occasional Hill Giant) in warbands. If one band, consisting mostly of two figures, suddenly becomes THE dominant force in competitive play, it will be a dark day for the design team.
I have no idea if this is just a passing fad or not, or if there are other competitive bands out there that just haven't emerged yet to show their resilience across multiple matchups... But I know if they only decision I have to make going into high level competition is: "What do I substitute for the last Gith Monk so I have an advantage in the mirror match," The game will be worse off for it.
Again, lets just hope that the environment is robust enough to provide a host of choices, within and across faction, for players to field in a competitive format.
This is my fear as well Kiddoc, CShroeder and I spent about 3 hours last we discussing just that. But wardrums is still to come and all it takes is one or two effective counters to keep it balanced. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 1:35 PM |
| As we have yet to see a solid showing from the monks themselves I'm more optimistic. Yes they are great but I faced an 8 year old a few weeks back playing a Marut/Iron Golem warband that seriously tore the monks apart. There are some bad matchups and some tough ones. As always the dice are the difference. Gith Monk's are solid tier 1 but I think there's enough variance out there that it won't be another Drider. I personally prefer the Gith Monk as a tech piece to commander/spellcaster hunt working with LG's other power pieces.
R~ | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 1:44 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
quote:
Originally posted by rhane
I know I sound like a broken record, but I still haven't seen a really bad matchup for YM+GMx4.
This seems to be a common statement lately. I sincerely hope that for all of our sakes, and the sake of the game, that this is simply not true. It would be a crushing setback to the much-improved balance of competitive play, to have one band suddenly become so dominant. Even in the days of CE dominance, there was a tremendous amount of variation (Liches, Red Sam's, Ogre Ravager, Orc Champs, Driders, Orc Warriors, Abyssal Maws, EoG's, LRD's, Orc Druid's, and even the occasional Hill Giant) in warbands. If one band, consisting mostly of two figures, suddenly becomes THE dominant force in competitive play, it will be a dark day for the design team.
I have no idea if this is just a passing fad or not, or if there are other competitive bands out there that just haven't emerged yet to show their resilience across multiple matchups... But I know if they only decision I have to make going into high level competition is: "What do I substitute for the last Gith Monk so I have an advantage in the mirror match," The game will be worse off for it.
Again, lets just hope that the environment is robust enough to provide a host of choices, within and across faction, for players to field in a competitive format.
...to complete my thought, there are certainly some warbands out there that can give GAS a hard time. I was just saying that I haven't seen any REALLY bad matchup/autoloss types.
Warbands that have multiple melee threats, each having high hit points (at least 65+), that can reliably hit the Gith's AC's have a good chance of winning.
For instance, my chosen band YM+4 Giths, will have problems against something like Red Samurai x3. While the Giths can move 10 and still attack, the Samurai's threat range is 14 (move 8 and breath weapon). Since I don't choose to put in a Couatl, I can take significant damage from the breath weapons.
Similarly, the quad beater/LE type builds, (or in my case a 3 beater/Gauth build), would present a major challenge. Duergar Champs have their conceal to possibly cancel out the auto-hit, can take 1 autohit in any case, are difficult to hit after the GM's auto-hit, can hit back better than 50% of the time with their first attack, and force a morale check with any 2 hits.
So, the key to beating GAS is to find a way to exploit these facts:
- The Gith Monks only have 55 hit points
- With the YM, they have a +12 morale save
- If the YM dies, they are MUCH less effective - he also only has 55 HP, has a +11 morale save, and must be close to the fighting
- Most builds have no better than +3 for initiative...try to avoid letting them move up + attack (stay 11+ spaces away, and avoid being charged).
- As a LG band, they can easily be out-activated by both CG and LE. | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 2:02 PM |
| I think this thread has veered off a little bit. The original poster wanted to know what piece could be included in a G. A. S. warband to have an edge in the mirror match, and has instead been lectured on the virtues of Lich/Clay Golems.
I'd have to vote Standard Bearer to muck up the YM synergy, Rikka to threaten the YM, or find a way to bring Blur in (CoY and Nebbin? Really expensive). | |
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General_Boy
Sneak
59 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 2:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by rhane
So, the key to beating GAS is to find a way to exploit these facts:
- The Gith Monks only have 55 hit points
- With the YM, they have a +12 morale save
- If the YM dies, they are MUCH less effective - he also only has 55 HP, has a +11 morale save, and must be close to the fighting
- Most builds have no better than +3 for initiative...try to avoid letting them move up + attack (stay 11+ spaces away, and avoid being charged).
- As a LG band, they can easily be out-activated by both CG and LE.
As a side note, the YM has a morale save of +15. He has Save +4 in addition to his CR of 3. | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3518 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/06/2005 3:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
I'm really surprised that I haven't seen the traditional Lich-Golems band mentioned as a possible counter for the Monks.
Funny you should say that: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12399
(Side discussion of Lich/Golem could probably be resumed there.)
Perhaps a Loyal Earth Elemental makes a good sub in the mirror match. He's immune to crits and stun, has a pretty good attack, and can ensure flanking, which is a help to his allied monks after they burn their one unavoidable strike. Though he's slow, he has burrow, so if you don't carelessly range too far ahead of him, you can probably have him in the fight, at worst, at the beginning of the round after the melee is joined. Because his presence enlarges the bull's eye on your Young Master, I'm betting the enemy monks come to you.
Alternately, a second commander with a high commander rating might be a good substitute for one monk. Whoever gets to strike first at his opponent's Young Master gets a big advantage. Because of the way unavoidable strike is worded (next attack roll is a natural 20), you not only automatically hit, but you crit. That means it only takes three unavoidable strikes to eliminate an enemy Young Master, even without the help of your own Young Master (two with his help). So, if you can manage to go last to get into position and then win the next initiative, you could put yourself way ahead. A Cleric of Dol Arrah can give you that boost and provide plenty of backup healing, but she costs more than a monk. A Sword of Heironeous costs less, which leaves extra room for support.
Here's what I'm thinking for a high init strategy. Until the fight, you hopefully win init and force your opponent to go first--keep your Young Master well out of the way. When he's close enough for two of your Giths to strike the enemy Young Master, double move your Young Master to within range of him (after the other guy has moved everybody). You're gambling that your higher commander rating wins you the next init. When it does, activate two Gith Monks and use unavoidable strike and stunning attack on the enemy Young Master. Each hit does an automatic 30 damage. If the first routs him, great, lay 30 damage on an enemy Gith to force him to make morale, too. If Young Master makes morale after the first hit, finish him with the second monk. Now you have a nice advantage, especially if you managed to position your guys so that the out-of-command enemy Giths have to rush your Giths who just attacked instead of going after your Young Master. | |
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ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 7:06 PM |
| I think death slaad x3 is a legitimately bad matchup.
I'm not sure that duergar champs are in bad shape against the monks either. They have solid saves for the stunning attacks, and conceal means you expect to lose one out of four unavoidable strikes as well. They can hit the monks better than most options at +15.
Granted, I've not tested champs against monks, and some initial returns have the monks winning so far.
If you can seal off your commander totally (mithril mines has some spots for this) chraals would seem to be a decent choice as well. | |
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 7:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I think death slaad x3 is a legitimately bad matchup.
I'm not sure that duergar champs are in bad shape against the monks either. They have solid saves for the stunning attacks, and conceal means you expect to lose one out of four unavoidable strikes as well. They can hit the monks better than most options at +15.
Granted, I've not tested champs against monks, and some initial returns have the monks winning so far.
If you can seal off your commander totally (mithril mines has some spots for this) chraals would seem to be a decent choice as well.
DCs are a tough match up on paper and in practice I think, alot of it comes to maps for this battle. | |
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derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 7:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
My opinion. We're at about the same spot as we were last year in my mind when Ryld / dual-HEBI bands were all the rage. Took a while, but they were soon dethroned.
I personally think there are LOTS of competitive bands out there. Many. Several at least.
Wow, Ryld Dual HEBI. Glad I missed that (I did not play last winter very much.)
I agree that despite the YM+GM popularity, I still see them as only another Tier 1 alternative, and certainly not the only dominant force in the game now. The main thing I see going for them is the overall lower complexity in running compared to many other counters and/or other Tier 1 warbands. (Meaning you need to get the Young Master near battle, but you basically automatically hit, reducing the complexity of the math, calculating the probabilities, and preparing for them.)
Since it appears I am the last to see excessive discussion about Triple Death Slaad (since I read the boards little right now), maybe I am rehashing old posts, but 3 Death Slaads do have a favorable matchup against the monks. The main reason is the ability of the DS to commander assassinate, the 3 chaos hammers, and the ability of a DS to win one-on-one matchups against the Gith Monks.
I also feel some of the old standards may see a re-emergence in order to provide well-practiced counters to the YM+GM warbands. Inspired Dual or Triple Frenzied Berserker is another unfavorable match.
So to stay on topic, I think creature(s) that provides a counter to not just a mirror match but also to other threats is the best option. Examples cited already that I agree with include the Couatl and the Justice Archon.
Couatl: an unavoidable strike and one sonic orb (out of range of the Young Master) is a morale check against mirror-matched Gith Monks. This allows you to aggressively go for the enemy warband while keeping your YM less exposed. Healing the YM can be huge and keep him alive for another turn, giving you more of his stun-bonus damage. A second commander often pays off and may distract your opponent from the main goal (kill the YM as possible and remove the GMs.) The Couatl provides great tech against triple Chraal, triple Red Samurai, dual Large Red Dragon, and similar elemental damage warbands. Getting a snake-swiftness stun attack at a clutch moment can win a match.
Justice Archon: the JA provides burst damage and the ability to distract all the fodder (since fodder often has very low expectations against the Giths.) The ability to fly to provide flank can be a clincher in having the GM’s two +9 attacks in being more reliable against medium ACs (13-17.) The JA also provides the ability to attack an opposing YM with little ability to counter. The JA provides the leverage another Gith Monk would not provide against mirror matches and against many other tier 1 warbands.
Bad Choices: the main bad choice I am not sure people are paying attention to is the Loyal Earth Elemental. Other bad choices are too much tech, like the Dwarven Artificer (as if AC 25 is not good enough), Cleric of Yondalla/Nebin (for the most expensive low-yield blurs in the game), and anything else that does not provide sustained combat power.
Loyal Earth Elemental: this creature is particularly bad since the main vulnerability of the YM+GM warband is the Young Master himself. Making even the most dense noob realize that the easiest way to win is the kill the Young Master is not good strategy.
Special Note: The Drow Arcane Guard is a particularly difficult threat for YM+GM warbands, unless they have the Couatl. Their conceal 11 is phenomenally effective in making the YM+GM warband much more difficult to play (due to having to calculate real probabilities and prepare for them.) An example of a DAG warband is below, not that difficult for the YM+GM to defeat, but still providing a lot of challenge.
1 Ogre Ravager
1 Orc Champion
5 Orc Warrior
1 Cursed Spirit
3 Drow Arcane Guard
1 Tiefling Captain | |
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Istari
Skirmisher
28 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 9:52 PM |
| LE has too much of a foothold in the 'top tier' class.
I emjoy monks and think the gimmick is quite effective.
But monks aren't Chraal's, Helmed Horror's etc...
Gimmick bands have not won major events and I expect no less from Monks.
Possibly the biggest gimmick band currently in the game that is marginally successful.
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 10:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Istari
LE has too much of a foothold in the 'top tier' class.
I emjoy monks and think the gimmick is quite effective.
But monks aren't Chraal's, Helmed Horror's etc...
Gimmick bands have not won major events and I expect no less from Monks.
Possibly the biggest gimmick band currently in the game that is marginally successful.
What makes monk a "gimmick" band. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 11:29 PM |
| As for what the spoiler was - Please remind me on Saturday. The NE Open is this weekend and it might get played.
I played several games today - YM+4 Gith lost to Beholder Soth.. part of that loss was due to my inability to roll higher than a 7 most of the day. I think that Monks will beat beholder at least 60% of the time... just not that time.
I think thats all we are really hoping for.. at least a 60% probability of winning against an equally well played band.
As for other bad matchups vs Monks - Construct bands (including multiple Helmed Horrors), anyone that can avoid being stunned and put 30 points of damage onto the monk in a turn or less. | |
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Urban Druid
Warrior
253 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 11:54 PM |
| The prevalence of GAS bands has made me reconsider adding the Voice of Battle back into my CG-hitter bands. In this case, he becomes a big (little?) walking target, but Improved Countersong can put a lid on some of the monks' effectiveness, not to mention the -2 AC with no save just being gravy (if you can pull it off). I've been thinking about something along the lines of a modified Inspired Frenzy:
Inspiring Marshall
Frenzied Berserker x2
Voice of Battle
Crow Shaman
Wild Elf Raider
Xeph Warrior x2
The VoB also has the handy synergy of putting enemy units out of command in the event of an FB forcing morale (already at a -2).
It would have to be played well, but I think it would stand up to the gith, as well as quite a number of other bands.
That could, however, just be my inexperience talking... [:p] | |
*This post was recorded before a live studio audience* | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/06/2005 11:59 PM |
| | Well just the potential of IM, FBx3 is scary for any band. If the monks don't get stuns dont work they are going to be in a world of hurt. | |
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| DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 12:37 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Istari
Gimmick bands have not won major events and I expect no less from Monks.
Possibly the biggest gimmick warband currently in the game that is marginally successful.
Can you expand a little more on what a gimmick warband is? Just the CE bonus in this case all relying on the commander to survive?
If that is the definition, then Chraal-Denial warbands are also gimmick warbands (hoping the commander survives until the match ends.) Even Snake Eyes could be considered gimmicky due to the link to have opponents with low AC and high damage to fight.
Just wanting to explore your idea some more. | |
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Istari
Skirmisher
28 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 12:53 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
What makes monk a "gimmick" band.
The Githzerai monk loses 50% of its effectiveness after one "auto hit".
Face it, you pay a lot of points for a figure that has a 25 AC and a gimmick auto hit.
Its HP to cost ratio is possibly on tier with some of the WORST figures in the game.
The Githzerai monk doesn't have the damage output to maintain control of tiles. Yeah, sure, they can spread out early on to claim a few points but they will eventually fall.
Basically, its a gimmick warband because its the type of warband that will win because an opponent will not really gauge the effectiveness of the band correctly. Its one of those bands that wins once or twice against scrub player A, then scrub player A figurrs out how to beat it.
Now, take scrub player A and replace him with a powergaming message board leech, and I don't see monks winning at all.
AT LEAST not on the level and consistancy of the power LE bands running rampant.
I don't want to sound misunderstood.
To clear things up I do believe Monks to be top tier and possibly the best option for LG outside of LSD currently available.
And the gimmick is amazing, really.
But to put it into context with what the original post asks I do not beleive Monks to be as threatening as many have made them seem.
In other words, they aren't a Chraal/HBG band like the championship band.
The Chraal for instance, maintains a constant level of effective an entire game where as Githzerai Monks have a good chance of burning out once that autohit does happen.
Now the tactics applied have shown to be tried and true but ultimately I feel Githzerai Tactics can be exploited a bit easier than other more certain warbands, which is why given the choice, I'd rather run an LE quad of some sort over a Gith band atm because in the end (speaking competitively) I suspect Gith bands to make it to a top table I don't expect them to finish at the top because they still must rely on to many 'chances' despite the auto hit ability they have. (And these chances will lose games as Ack pointed out. against Soth/Beholder no less)
To answer the original question, I don't beleive Monk bands run the same way LE quads do. If anything, Monk bands should stay relatively the same or they will lose synergy. This is rather contrary to LE quads, who happen to have a number of tools to work with.
Monk bands don't leave options which is a flaw in of itself yet at the same time this encourages the notion of Monks being powerful to begin with.
Basically right now in my mind its pretty much paper, rock, scissors,
with LE Quad (Naga/HBG etc...), Monks, Inspired Frenzy, and CE quad.
With LE quad on top by a hair.
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 12/07/2005 2:33 AM |
| To say the monk band is a gimmick band is severely underestimating its ability. The auto 90 damage will give you a significant up front point lead and will dictate the entire match. Sure they lose their effectiveness over time but by then it is too late and the match is over. Not to mention the tile points they rack up because of their speed. 90 damage will take out just about any major piece and the loss of said piece will be enough for victory.
Four Helmed Horrors or Four Chraals will all give the monks a challenge. Triple Death Slaad might be some trouble and multiple Red Samurais are trouble if not running the Couatl.
I have my own "gimmick" band that front loads the damage and has more speed than the monks. It is not LG. But it too has some bad matchups.
I think the definition of gimmick is that it is a one trick pony. But this one trick can win you the match and is nearly indefensible. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
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Istari
Skirmisher
28 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 3:50 AM |
| I pretty much agree.
In token, one should not underestimate the obvious drawbacks of monks is the very fact the competitive meta is already tooled against it. Most bands these days rely on absurdly high HP values.
Specifically HP to point cost ratio.
Look at the Chraal, Helmed Horror, Orc Champion, Large Silver Dragon,Frenzied Berserker,Duergar Champion,
all the great high HP commanders.
but perhaps all this is another topic entirely...
I'm going to run Monks with Medium Silver Dragon just because It will be cool.
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 8:11 AM |
| The Gith monks are far from a gimmick piece. Yes, those bands rely on a combo and one limited-shot ability ... however that's all you need. In fact, when I consider a band I make sure I have some reasonable to hits (+12 is my benchmark) to handle most folks, a way to punish low-save, low-AC berserkers and barbarians and some form of can-opener than can reliably hit higher ACs.
The monks have ALL of that.
As far as cost/hp goes ... that's a phantom. Their HP is not in the "best" grouping for a mid-cost hitter (65+hp), but it is in a playable group (55 and 60 HP) AND they have a larger threat range due to their speed than just about anyone else. Of the melee units only the Marshal provides a realisticly greater threat range ... and CG was already on the downswing. If the existence of the Gith Monks can bring the Marshal and CG back into common and competitive play, that balances the factions a bit more towards center and will make me very happy.
What is more important than cost/hp is the overall package as it fits in a point grouping. The Gith Monks are VERY aggressively costed in the low 30s and playing them without the Young Master is even a possibility. The existence of the YM and his superb commander effect synergy makes this figure great. And if THAT brings countersong to greater prominence, excellent! We then would have a very healthy game with competitive pieces from all factions.
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 8:42 AM |
| Istari.. I feel you are exgaterating to make a point. I disagree with you on alot of points.. the "gimmick" you are talking about is the unavoidable strike (Im assuming). Lets remove that from the equation. We have a 25AC / 55HP / Spd10 unit in LG. Thats still gonna be about 28 points, give or take. They do mediocre damage with mediocre to hit bonuses.. okay.. with flanking and stuff we can make alot of rolls. but then we add the Stunning attacks... and while we might miss the stunned enemy beater, they arent swinging that round either. Honestly.. I would probably still run the unit at 34 points without the Unavoidable Strike (which I miss with too often)
Now theres a 44 point commander in LG that gives you a sizable bonus to stunning attacks (+4 to hit, +10 damage). That synergy gives the monks a hell of an advantage and makes them worth playing in large numbers.. just like you would play large numbers of Duergar or Goliath Barbs or anything else.
In your list of 2:1 HP:cost pieces - half of the list was Lawful Evil and only 1 piece was LG.. and that piece shouldnt be in that list at all. the LSD is 122 points for 150 HP (1.22 ratio) - the Monks have a 1.61 ratio).. they are actually more efficiently priced for just the HP. Yes, the Duergar and Helmed are both more survivable pieces than the monks (IMO), but the monks can stand toe to toe with a FB and it will come down to who got the first shot off and who rolls better. Plus I will have 4 Monks for fewer points than the 3 FBs you will be running... so Im already winning that match.
The major weakness to the Monks is definately the commander. He has to be within 6 to get his commander effect off, but not so close that he gets caught in the melee.. cause he is a bit squishy.
Chris - you just hush about Countersong.. it stinks and no one should run it ever. *looks around guiltily*. Seriously.. anyone running FBs in this environment should absolutely fit in either a VoB or use the WarChanter as the commander or slide Devis / Satyr into the band for 6 or 15 points respectively. Its a no brainer.. tho they will still lose to monks cause they will stand around stunned til they die.
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nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:14 AM |
| I was going to post this in
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12273&whichpage=1
But that thread is dying
I played against tri-Monk / Couatl / Master / Mialee / MoA x 2 last night with the following.
Mind Flayer
3 x Helmed Horror
2 x Azer Raider
Dark Moon Monk ;(
Timber Wolf
My opponent *SELECTED* drow outpost ! I set up on the top side he set up near the building. The first Azer to get on the middle victory area took a MM and routed (later rallied), but I got a second on there.
Long story short, the Monks managed to kill one Horror an Azer and the Dark Moon Magic Weapon but the others hacked them to pieces. A big problem was the Mind Flayer across the chasm firing off cones with no way for the monks to get to him. The only hope was Couatl who was based by a HH and who later failed a Stun save.
I think 3M is a good band but it has bad matchups and bad maps like every other band. I am liking Triple H (tm) more and more every time I play it.
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:06 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nedleeds
I was going to post this in
http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12273&whichpage=1
But that thread is dying
I played against tri-Monk / Couatl / Master / Mialee / MoA x 2 last night with the following.
Mind Flayer
3 x Helmed Horror
2 x Azer Raider
Dark Moon Monk ;(
Timber Wolf
My opponent *SELECTED* drow outpost ! I set up on the top side he set up near the building. The first Azer to get on the middle victory area took a MM and routed (later rallied), but I got a second on there.
Long story short, the Monks managed to kill one Horror an Azer and the Dark Moon Magic Weapon but the others hacked them to pieces. A big problem was the Mind Flayer across the chasm firing off cones with no way for the monks to get to him. The only hope was Couatl who was based by a HH and who later failed a Stun save.
I think 3M is a good band but it has bad matchups and bad maps like every other band. I am liking Triple H (tm) more and more every time I play it.
As posted in the other thread, I really like this band. I think it will suffer off of the drow outpost (and the monk player who choose it was suicidal) but can still hold its own just by the virtue of 3 helmed horrors. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 12/12/2005 12:16 PM |
| Last night I played this alternative:
Gith Monk x3
Young Master
Couatl
Barbarian Mercenary
Man-at-Arms
I played it against a Beholder/Naga/Snig band (12 activations, I think). I had a little trouble making sure that the Barbarian Mercenary was either under the YM's control or not in line of sight to an enemy (damn that Difficult 2), but, he was a nice alternative to a pile of Hill Dwarves. His 15 damage was significant, and, given all the potential flankers in the band, I had no problem getting him a +7 attack bonus most of the time.
I don't know that he's the "Green Dragon" of GAS bands, but, he was a very nice threat for me to have at the table.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
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