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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
    
 | | 12/07/2005 10:00 AM |
| There are a number of threads out there detailing how effective Young Master/Githzerai Monk based warbands (GAS – Githzerai Assassin Squad) are. Anyone who is following these threads can see that I’m a HUGE fan of this build, and I think it can be very strong in tournament play.
One of the really attractive features of this warband is that while GAS has a number of very favorable matchups, there don’t appear to be any really bad/auto-loss type matchups for it. That’s not to say that GAS is unbeatable...just that by running it you should almost always have a good opportunity to win.
First, some clarifications. This thread deals with 200 point, 8 creatures, on maps. A GAS warband is one that features a Young Master (YM), and has 3-4 Githzerai Monks (GM). Here are some popular variations:
YM + GMx4 + 20 pts
YM + Couatl + GMx3 + 12 pts
YM + GMx3 + Slayer of Domiel + 8 pts
The first is the one I have the most experience with, so I’ll focus my discussion there, but most of the same issues apply to the others as well.
Why is it so effective? You’re combining extreme speed and high armor classes with nasty guaranteed damage, and a lot of stun saves. Most warbands and players aren’t prepared to deal with absorbing 120 HP of damage, dropped exactly where it will do the most damage. And that second part is the key. With their speed, and general contempt for AoO’s the GAS player has a very good chance at putting the damage right where he wants. Even resilient commanders and/or beaters can be killed, routed, and/or stunned by the second round of combat.
So, how do you beat ‘em? That’s the purpose of this thread. I’ll offer my opinion, and let the rest of you add to it, and/or tell me why I have no idea what I’m talking about.
(continued in next post) | |
Rhane
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:02 AM |
| First, what not to do:
A lot of folks have touted the advantage of constructs and elementals because they are immune to the criticals and stuns of the Monks. The problem with that is that most of these require commanders, and there are very few commanders that can withstand the initial onslaught of GAS. Versus 4 monks, only the Hezrou and Balor can survive the 120 HP that GAS can generate on their auto-hit round. Drizzt and the Nentyar Hunter can survive if their Conceal 6 saves them. Versus 3 monks you can add Lord Soth, the Lich Necromancer, and Nentyar Hunter to the list, and some creatures with Conceal also have their chance of survival increased.
So, unless you’re playing one of the commanders above (and most of them won’t survive the second engagement round), or you have a strategy that guarantees the monks can’t get to your commander(s), you’re creatures that Require Commander are extremely vulnerable.
The second major approach that has been looked at is direct damage that bypasses the Monks’ high armor class. The key drawback here is that most direct damage figures are relatively fragile, and with the speed of the Monks, you will likely get based before you have a chance to pull off the effect. The Monks can be in virtually any square on any map in 2 turns (unless you control the bridge during the first turn on Drow Outpost). With their 25 AC, they usually don’t worry about attacks of opportunity, unless its from creatures with high attack bonuses, that hit for high damage. The second major drawback is the inclusion of the Couatl in the GAS warband.
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Rhane
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:03 AM |
| So, how do you beat them?
Exploit their low hit points
The Young Master and Githzerai Monks only have 55 hit points each. 30 damage forces a morale check, which the GMs fail on a 7 or less (assuming the YM is the highest commander). Look for a strategy that employs survivable direct damage, and/or creatures that can reliably hit AC 25 for decent damage. When they hit, they should hit for at least 15, preferably 20-25 damage. It is extremely important that this damage come from multiple sources (3 or more), and it doesn’t rely on synergy from any single creature that can be assassinated.
Exploit their low commander rating/initiative
Typically the highest commander rating in a GAS warband is 3 (from the Young Master). If you have a +6 or more to your initiative, your opponent must think twice about double moving his monks to base your vulnerable creatures, if doing so leaves him open to losing them before he can activate them in the next round. You will also have the advantage when choosing maps and sides (see below).
Gain activation control
No need to go into the details here, but its almost impossible for the GAS player to overload his activations. By running against him with Snig or a couple of Greycloaks, you can easily gain activation control.
Make them waste their auto-hit
Creatures with incorporeal or conceal can be huge against the monks. They only have 1 auto-hit, and if its wasted on conceal, their effectiveness drops immensely.
Nerf or kill the Young Master
With the Young Master’s commander effect, and using a Stunning Attack, the Gith Monks attack at +13/+9 for 20 magic+stun/10 magic, and their auto hit does 30 magic damage. Without the commander effect, they drop to +9/+9 for 10 magic each (plus stunning attack on 1 attack), and the auto-hit only does 20. Ideally, if you can kill or otherwise incapacitate the Young Master, the effectiveness of the GMs drops dramatically Alternatively, little 6-point Devis, or other creatures with countersong, looks very attractive. The GAS warbands don’t really have an effective way at clearing out an annoyance like Devis, as they are built more for dropping big damage and forcing stun saves on bigger targets. Wasting a Gith Monk’s turn to track down and kill Devis means that one of your big hitters just avoided a nasty attack.
Fight speed with speed
GAS relies on the ability to drop its damage where it will cause the most harm. Using their speed of 10 to strike from a long distance and kill your key creatures. Counter this by using your own fast creatures. If you can roll up on the monks and base them with creatures that they can’t afford to take attacks of opportunity from (Goliath Barbarians, for example), you can help decide where the damage goes.
Beware their speed!
It can be hard for newer players (and older players for that matter) to really understand how fast speed 10 is – particularly on maps. I recommend dragging out your maps, and doing some tests. You may be surprised. Also remember that if you activate a creature before the Giths activate in a particular round, there is potential for the monk to move 40 spaces before you activate that creature again.
Go for direct damage
I know I said above that this can be a mistake, but you can definitely gain mileage out of direct damage threats if:
- you employ other threats that the GAS player is more concerned about
- the direct damage threat is particularly robust, or you can protect it
Play on Drow Outpost
Once again, GAS shines when it can pick its targets and drop its damage where its most effective. If you can block the central bridge on Drow Outpost with a creature or creatures that they GAS player typically doesn’t want to go toe to with, you can force him to go the long way around (and then move your forces to intercept him again). Since he only has a +3 init, you have a reasonably good chance of getting your map and your side. For instance, if you start with a Chraal on the B side (left side) you can park him in the middle of the bridge, and force the GAS player to spend time beating on the Chraal (not a good matchup for the monks) or go around.
Helmed Horror
There are several creatures out there that are pretty good matchups against Githzerai Monks, but the Helmed Horror gets an honorable mention, because he’s such a great foil. Most importantly, he’s a construct that doesn’t require a commander. So if the monks want to kill him, they’ve got to wade through 95 fearless, not susceptible to critical, no flank, no stun, hit points. His high attack bonus means he should hit with at least 1 attack every round. His fly 6 speed is not spectacular, but does limit some of the tricks that the monks can pull off. He’s particularly effective when used with a Chraal on Drow Outpost. Chraal blocks the bridge...Helmed Horror flies across...now GAS has to go toe to toe with 2 creatures that give the monks problems.
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Rhane
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:04 AM |
| Sample Warbands
So, having said all that, here are some good, mainstream warbands that should have a good chance of beating the GAS. While none of them is a slam dunk against GAS, all should do relatively well – particularly on Drow Outpost.
Good old-fashioned Ryldfecta variant:
Ryld
Red Sam x2
Orc Champion
+26 points
Strengths vs. GAS: Wins initiative most of the time, Sams and OC are fast enough to nerf the GAS speed advantage, Sam’s have a 14 space threat range with their fire cone, have a decent chance of making the stun save, and hit for 20 damage with reasonably high bonuses. The OC does nasty damage, and has cleave. All hitters can crit on a 19 or 20. The 26 remaining points can buy some effective fodder or mini-hitters. Lots of combined hit points.
Fire and Ice warband:
Urthok
Snig
Helmed Horror
Chraal
Duergar x2
Goblin Skirmisher x3 (sniglets)
Strengths vs. GAS: +2 over GAS in initiative, 9 activations, all beaters hit for 15 damage, Duergars have conceal 6, Chraal AoE and death burst, Chraal and Helmed Horror are very difficult targets for GMs, lots of skirmishers to plug up the attack lanes.
Greenfang Grabbag: (EDIT: some discussion below highlights this as a dubious choice)
GFD
Dire Bear
Celestial Pegasus
Rikka
Goliath Barbarian
Devis
Xeph Warrior x2
Strengths vs. GAS: Good variety of high attacks with moderate to high damage. 2 large bases control Giths movement, Giths must think twice about taking an AoO from the Dire Bear, Goliath, or Rikka, Scads of hit points for Giths to get through. Ranged threat from GFD, Waylay threat from Rikka, countersong, and all come close to matching the GAS’s speed. GAS must spend 3 auto-hits to bring down the Druid, leaving few threats to the rest of the warband.
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Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:34 AM |
| I'm going to suggest something a little uh... "out there" in terms of strategy:
Play without a commander.
Heh. Seems crazy eh? Well, War Drums has some fun things in store for you. You're even getting hints at them now. Figures like the Copper Dragon and Satyr can give you initiative bonuses without needing a commander. Other figures can give you morale save bonuses...even without a commander. How odd...
I could forsee a future warband that might contain nothing but beef. Maybe a little fodder. But with speed 2 gone and the upcoming 8 creature limit, some possibilities have opened up. Figures with high saves or that are fearless will be prime candidates for inclusion in such a band. And for every point you don't spend there, you can spend quite a bit on a solid hitter. Obviously the presence of amazingly costed commanders (Tiefling, etc.) detracts from this strategy a little, but not entirely.
Who knows, maybe it won't happen? There's certainly mental block that commanders "have" to be in any warband right now. Of course, as more figures are added, who knows what might happen? | |
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:40 AM |
| The first warband looks exactly like a lot of other bands that were played (and lost) against Gith Monk warbands in tourney reports. At most it seems like an even match. Then again, I don't know much. =/
The second warband looks like our best bet, but both commanders are very squishy and die to a couple of hits (Urthok) or a single hit (Snig). I don't know whether your speed 4 and speed 6 respectively can escape the monks. Depending on who the Chraal is tied to, your mobility would be severely limited trying to protect that commander, because if it dies, you're pretty much guaranteed a loss.
The third warband a friend just recently tried using against a GAS band, and lost miserably. He was telling me about how quickly those 105 hit points on the direbear dropped. Even after the initial auto-hit, the +13/+9 (20 magic + DC 18 stun/10 magic) is pretty good against a low AC 17. I don't even think that is the most effective way for GAS to hit that warband, but whatever. I don't know of the context or position of the board, so i shouldn't comment. I just don't like the idea that even without the auto-hit, the Monks can hit reliably those low AC figures in the third band. The 20 damage + DC 18 stun is nasty. Countersong isn't that much of a counter because Devis has 15 HP. The Gith doesn't even need Young Master to kill it.
I don't mean to attack your points, but I'm just a very skeptical person in general and just wanted to suggest that those three bands aren't necessary the best counters to GAS. What I've noticed about bands that are effective against GAS in tourney reports is that those bands have good direct Damage, high AC/conceal, good attack bonuses, and immunity to stun and/or criticals. Tri-Death Slaad seems to be heralded as a good counter, having at least a few of the needed qualities.
My points may be wrong though. Have you tried any of those suggested warbands against GAS bands? How effective were they? Experience is the best measure for these kind of predictions/analyses.
~John | |
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nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:43 AM |
| (cross post)
I played against tri-Monk / Couatl / Master / Mialee / MoA x 2 last night with the following.
Mind Flayer
3 x Helmed Horror
2 x Azer Raider
Dark Moon Monk ;(
Timber Wolf
My opponent *SELECTED* drow outpost ! I set up on the top side he set up near the building. The first Azer to get on the middle victory area took a MM and routed (later rallied), but I got a second on there.
Long story short, the Monks managed to kill one Horror an Azer and the Dark Moon Magic Weapon but the others hacked them to pieces. A big problem was the Mind Flayer across the chasm firing off cones with no way for the monks to get to him. The only hope was Couatl who was based by a HH and who later failed a Stun save.
I think 3M is a good band but it has bad matchups and bad maps like every other band. I am liking Triple H (tm) more and more every time I play it.
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
| | 12/07/2005 10:44 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
I'm going to suggest something a little uh... "out there" in terms of strategy:
Play without a commander.
Heh. Seems crazy eh? Well, War Drums has some fun things in store for you. You're even getting hints at them now. Figures like the Copper Dragon and Satyr can give you initiative bonuses without needing a commander. Other figures can give you morale save bonuses...even without a commander. How odd...
I could forsee a future warband that might contain nothing but beef. Maybe a little fodder. But with speed 2 gone and the upcoming 8 creature limit, some possibilities have opened up. Figures with high saves or that are fearless will be prime candidates for inclusion in such a band. And for every point you don't spend there, you can spend quite a bit on a solid hitter. Obviously the presence of amazingly costed commanders (Tiefling, etc.) detracts from this strategy a little, but not entirely.
Who knows, maybe it won't happen? There's certainly mental block that commanders "have" to be in any warband right now. Of course, as more figures are added, who knows what might happen?
I'm not sure I like this idea. It seems to drop an element of strategy from the game. And it just makes sense having a commander. However I will reserve final judgement until I see all the changes. | |
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nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:48 AM |
| | To Kiddoc's point LE seems ripe for this sort of band. Maybe 180 points of beef + Snig / Kobold Sorcerer ... just to give you a chance at rallying any non-Fearless units. | |
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:49 AM |
| | Kiddoc, as always you know way more than we do and premise all kinds of new options with hints at the exciting future of the game. I hate you. [:p] | | | |
| 
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ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:53 AM |
| Great analysis. I agree with all of it ... except the Greenfang build being a good foil. I'm not down w/ the Greenfang builds at this point in time.
GAS bands aren't unbeatable and they do have some poor-ish matchups. I still think they are a very viable choice ... but more than anything we're seeing the rock-scissors-paper come into play. By my count there are probably a dozen major band types that are moderately competitive and a full two-dozen if we include things that shoe up with some frequency but are largely unproven. At a large-ish event any one of these big ones could come out on top.
Gith bands hate:
Conceal and incorporeal
Direct/spell damage
Bands with a longer threat distance
They only dislike constructs, elementals and undead ... as these are difficult to gain a lot of points against in a timed match. This is similar to the ZWD issue of the qualifier season ... it is a pain, it takes time but handing out meat to be killed is still giving your opponent points (albeit slowly). Luckily for the LE variants, they have plenty of ranged attacks that can zero in on units tied up on a blocking Chraal, etc.
My Drow-Outpost, anti-GAS threat relies on something that is, itself, immune to acid.
Cleric of Dol Arrah
Large Silver Dragon
Standard Bearer
Mialee
17 points remaining
That bridge on the Drow Outpost is BEGGING for someone to plop their butt down on it ... and with the AC, HP and saves of the Large Silver Dragon, backed by 60 more HP from the Cleric of Dol Arrah AND a fun little dismissal ... this should handle GAS bands pretty darn effectively. You likely won't stun the dragon and once the standard bearer gets there you will have a hard time doing reasonable damage to it. Sure the crits will fire, but 60 or 80 HP on the LSD can be nullified quickly by the CoDA. Spacing for the fodder in this band will be key, so you need to make sure you keep folks off your back. | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 10:58 AM |
| Here is another band that can out-threat range the Gith monks and, while susceptible to the stuns, has enough hit points that its going to take alot of their stuns to go through them, especially if the protection of Devis works correctly. That band is:
Inspiring Marshal
3 Frenzied Berserkers
Devis
3 Xeph Warriors
With this band you gain not only a greater threat range (16 squares with the GMA as oppossed to the 10 squares that the monks have), but a way to counter the young master's commander effect in the form of devis and a hitter who has a reasonable chance of forcing the oppossing gith monk to route off the board with one hit. (30 damage and a -2 to morale saves, giving the monks a measly +10.) Granted, the Frenzied Berserkers can be stunned, but with devis around those stuns are going to have a bit less of an effect, and if they send a piece after Devis, all the better as that forces them to have one less figure focusing on the real threat in the band, the Frenzied Berserkers. | |
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AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:03 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nedleeds
(cross post)
I played against tri-Monk / Couatl / Master / Mialee / MoA x 2 last night with the following.
Mind Flayer
3 x Helmed Horror
2 x Azer Raider
Dark Moon Monk ;(
Timber Wolf
My opponent *SELECTED* drow outpost ! I set up on the top side he set up near the building. The first Azer to get on the middle victory area took a MM and routed (later rallied), but I got a second on there.
Long story short, the Monks managed to kill one Horror an Azer and the Dark Moon Magic Weapon but the others hacked them to pieces. A big problem was the Mind Flayer across the chasm firing off cones with no way for the monks to get to him. The only hope was Couatl who was based by a HH and who later failed a Stun save.
I think 3M is a good band but it has bad matchups and bad maps like every other band. I am liking Triple H (tm) more and more every time I play it.
Nice. Wouldn't work on just any map, but this is a good fail band all around, even the -4 to Saves helps it out. And to top it off I think it would hold its own against other bands as well. | |
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Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:08 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Here is another band that can out-threat range the Gith monks and, while susceptible to the stuns, has enough hit points that its going to take alot of their stuns to go through them, especially if the protection of Devis works correctly. That band is:
Inspiring Marshal
3 Frenzied Berserkers
Devis
3 Xeph Warriors
With this band you gain not only a greater threat range (16 squares with the GMA as oppossed to the 10 squares that the monks have), but a way to counter the young master's commander effect in the form of devis and a hitter who has a reasonable chance of forcing the oppossing gith monk to route off the board with one hit. (30 damage and a -2 to morale saves, giving the monks a measly +10.) Granted, the Frenzied Berserkers can be stunned, but with devis around those stuns are going to have a bit less of an effect, and if they send a piece after Devis, all the better as that forces them to have one less figure focusing on the real threat in the band, the Frenzied Berserkers.
Great point Jesse. You've touched on this before when citing the REAL advantage of the GAS band: First strike efficiency.
GAS Bands are serious threats because they can hit when they want to thanks to speed 10, and don't have to worry about immediate retaliation (because it's either the end of the round, or they kill/stun their intended target).
IM based bands can "one-up" the GAS bands at their own game, so to speak. The 3 Berserker band is a NIGHTMARE for them because of 4 things: Fearlessness, aura of fear, and deathstrike all with that critically-important 30 damage attack. Combine those with an effecitve speed of 16, and you get the first chance to unload that morale-check forcing swing. If you attack the GAS band first, they're much less likely to be able to gang up on an FB, which means it will live an extra round or two.
Even if you stun the FB on the first go, she'll likely survive to unstun. Get Devis in the mix and suddenly those 90HP are looking a little more formidable. One regular hit, and one deathstrike, and it's curtains for the monks. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:21 AM |
| Too much of a good thing?
This has been mentioned before as a GAS hate band: 4x Helmed Horror + Snig & the sniglets. It would hold up fairly well against many other bands too, provided you can get your HHs where you want them before Snig takes a dirt nap.
380 Fearless hit points! | | | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:28 AM |
| Great ideas...keep 'em coming!
You may be right that GFD warbands are not a good matchup...I included it, because it was one that I had some difficulty beating with my monks...though thinking back, I guess it wasn't really that close.
I actually discounted the Frenzied Berserkers, because I was thinking the 2 FB variant, and I was worried about them going into "perma-stun" - particularly against 4 Gith Monk warbands. Adding the third FB, and definitely the addition of Devis changes the odds. I'd also discounted the GMA because the IM is so susceptible to the Giths. However, that could have been a mistake as well.
Chris' LSD on Drow Outpost is exactly the kind of thing that will frustrate the bajezus out of GAS. Nice one!
As far as Ryldfecta goes, I haven't actually seen one played against GAS, so I guess I'll have to go with the experience of the group. However, on paper, it looks like a great matchup, so I'm surprised that its not doing well. I definitely need to check out the tourney reports that you are talking about. | |
Rhane
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| 2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:39 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
This has been mentioned before as a GAS hate band: 4x Helmed Horror + Snig & the sniglets. It would hold up fairly well against many other bands too, provided you can get your HHs where you want them before Snig takes a dirt nap.
380 Fearless hit points!
KMelstrom played a similar band in our last local tournament, and he mopped the floor with my 3x death frog band. I mean, it wasn't even close. He was using no commander, however, opting for four Blues instead of Snig. This goes with what Kiddoc was saying: with no speed 2 and no morale saves, who needs a commander?
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:40 AM |
| | Well, the thing about the Inspiring Marshal is there nothing that is making you play with the band in a position that is anywhere close to where the monks are going to be, as long as he can keep the Frenzied Berserkers in command. The Frenzied Berserkers can be 11-12 spaces away from the gith monks and in position to move in for a tap next turn. Of course this comes down to winning the right initiatives to set it up, and it can be painful (for either side) to be in a situation where you lose said initiative, but such gambits are going to be increasingly required to win games between equally skilled players. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Well, the thing about the Inspiring Marshal is there nothing that is making you play with the band in a position that is anywhere close to where the monks are going to be, as long as he can keep the Frenzied Berserkers in command. The Frenzied Berserkers can be 11-12 spaces away from the gith monks and in position to move in for a tap next turn. Of course this comes down to winning the right initiatives to set it up, and it can be painful (for either side) to be in a situation where you lose said initiative, but such gambits are going to be increasingly required to win games between equally skilled players.
Great points...it will be interesting to see how this plays out over the long-haul. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:55 AM |
| Monks don't like Conceal, Incorporeal, Cancelling Commander effects, Immune Critical hits, damage/to-hit nerfs, Autodamage (especially if not Elemental).
One Band (Conceal + Autodamage + damage/to-hit nerf)
5x Renegade Warlock
1x Inspring Marshal
2x Etheral Filcher
Blow the GMA first turn so that the Warlocks can get LoS, and start pumping out the damage. Filch Monks.
Another Band (immune critical)
4x Helmed Horror
1x Snig + Sniglets
As another has pointed out, get the HH to were they need to be before Snig bites it, and make sure you score > 20 pts
Another try (Conceal, Immune Critical)
1x Human Blackguard
3x Duergar Champion
1x Chraal
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nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:56 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
quote:
Originally posted by nedleeds
(cross post)
I played against tri-Monk / Couatl / Master / Mialee / MoA x 2 last night with the following.
Mind Flayer
3 x Helmed Horror
2 x Azer Raider
Dark Moon Monk ;(
Timber Wolf
My opponent *SELECTED* drow outpost ! I set up on the top side he set up near the building. The first Azer to get on the middle victory area took a MM and routed (later rallied), but I got a second on there.
Long story short, the Monks managed to kill one Horror an Azer and the Dark Moon Magic Weapon but the others hacked them to pieces. A big problem was the Mind Flayer across the chasm firing off cones with no way for the monks to get to him. The only hope was Couatl who was based by a HH and who later failed a Stun save.
I think 3M is a good band but it has bad matchups and bad maps like every other band. I am liking Triple H (tm) more and more every time I play it.
Nice. Wouldn't work on just any map, but this is a good fail band all around, even the -4 to Saves helps it out. And to top it off I think it would hold its own against other bands as well.
On Mithril Mines, or even Fane the Mind Flayer would be vulnerable. But as stated with no OOC 2 move you can keep him back fairly far. Even to the point of double moving him only when a HH is about to potentially MC a Monk. GM is level 9 - 4 + 3 (at best) is an 8 to save and that's pretty lousy. And routing at speed 10 is a long way. There aren't too many maps where you'll end up not fleeing off board. The Dark Moon Monk is actually a big waste against GAS, the +1 helps but there is no DR. I could see swapping him out. Problem is there isn't anything in that point range thats much better. Skeletal Equiceph makes a nice blocker but it's 25 HP and won't last too long. Stripping all the fodder away (including the Timber Wolf) leaves you with 4 figures @ 170. I felt the Timber Wolf was a necessary evil. So that's 175 and 5 figures. Maybe there is a better more versatile way to fill out the band.
... or maybe Dark Moon Monk isn't that bad :(
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Champion of Zarak - Evil Half-Orc Assassin | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:56 AM |
| | It seems like the Mind Flayer Telepath might have some usefulness against the Giths. While psychic scream won't hamper their speed once speed 2 goes away, it will drop any commander effect bonuses received from the Young Master/Couatl. LE has many good pieces that can synergize well with this. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 11:57 AM |
| | Get a gravehound. | |
I am not gone. | |
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jos1-1
Sergeant
829 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 12:07 PM |
| My gith band got DESTROYED vs a drizzts band. i was running YM GITH x4 and ebmer is it?
anyways the drizzts player had a angel (rikka) some kind of counter song peice and other uniq figs.
coming out he kept drizzts in the back away from my reach and came on me... with the angel (my first time using them so i didnt use them all that great mind you). but he moved in and i moved in and war started.... counter song stopped my +10 dam and with drizzts they had saves out the arse, to make matters worse i missed two auto dam hits from concel. in total i took like 20 points from them. | |
Poor student looking for minis =D | |
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BudLeiser
Warrior
218 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 12:10 PM |
| | Im liking the idea of the Triple FB band Ive had to fight those with my Duergar Chraal band and they were a pain. The Helmed Horror flying was annoying for me, but he was not as scary as a FB. | |
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nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 12:19 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Get a gravehound.
Go Greyhound ? | |
Champion of Zarak - Evil Half-Orc Assassin | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 12:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nedleeds
quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
quote:
Originally posted by nedleeds
(cross post)
I played against tri-Monk / Couatl / Master / Mialee / MoA x 2 last night with the following.
Mind Flayer
3 x Helmed Horror
2 x Azer Raider
Dark Moon Monk ;(
Timber Wolf
My opponent *SELECTED* drow outpost ! I set up on the top side he set up near the building. The first Azer to get on the middle victory area took a MM and routed (later rallied), but I got a second on there.
Long story short, the Monks managed to kill one Horror an Azer and the Dark Moon Magic Weapon but the others hacked them to pieces. A big problem was the Mind Flayer across the chasm firing off cones with no way for the monks to get to him. The only hope was Couatl who was based by a HH and who later failed a Stun save.
I think 3M is a good band but it has bad matchups and bad maps like every other band. I am liking Triple H (tm) more and more every time I play it.
Nice. Wouldn't work on just any map, but this is a good fail band all around, even the -4 to Saves helps it out. And to top it off I think it would hold its own against other bands as well.
On Mithril Mines, or even Fane the Mind Flayer would be vulnerable. But as stated with no OOC 2 move you can keep him back fairly far. Even to the point of double moving him only when a HH is about to potentially MC a Monk. GM is level 9 - 4 + 3 (at best) is an 8 to save and that's pretty lousy. And routing at speed 10 is a long way. There aren't too many maps where you'll end up not fleeing off board. The Dark Moon Monk is actually a big waste against GAS, the +1 helps but there is no DR. I could see swapping him out. Problem is there isn't anything in that point range thats much better. Skeletal Equiceph makes a nice blocker but it's 25 HP and won't last too long. Stripping all the fodder away (including the Timber Wolf) leaves you with 4 figures @ 170. I felt the Timber Wolf was a necessary evil. So that's 175 and 5 figures. Maybe there is a better more versatile way to fill out the band.
... or maybe Dark Moon Monk isn't that bad :(
Well the monk keeps it versatile against other bands and can also act as a tile point grabber/hunter if need be after its spells are up. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 12:30 PM |
| In the Inspired Frenzy band, if I were building with an eye to a GAS-heavy metagame, I'd sub out one of the 3 FBs for Rask. Against a 25 AC, you just can't rely on the FBs second attack, whereas Rask's both have a decent chance of hitting and still forcing the morale check.
Besides, what's more fun than counter-stunning a monk? | | | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 12:50 PM |
| | You don't need to rely on the secondary attack to hit the Gith monks, as kiddoc noted. Its more important that the primary, 30 damage, attack hits and you get a chance to force a morale save onto the gith. | |
I am not gone. | |
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One_Wing
Sergeant
494 Posts
London
| | 12/07/2005 1:41 PM |
| Post no speed 2, I could envisage this causing the gitzerai (deliberate misspelling BTW) some problems:
Dire Bear x4 176
Eberk 16
Timber wolf 5
Xeph warrior 3
You autokilled a bear? Well done. Now meet his friends. They wish to discuss vital matters of life and (your) death. | |
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General_Boy
Sneak
59 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 1:59 PM |
| I know it loses something taking the third FB out but maybe having a better chance to win a key initiative is worth upgrading Devis to the Satyr. How about this?
IM
2 FB's
Rikka
Satyr
Medium Astral Construct
Wild Elf Raider
Timber Wolf
I know Rikka is a near auto-stun against the monks but she also might cause problems with a GMA from behind the monk line and the Satyr can still countersong and use his pipe ability. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 2:41 PM |
| I've been considering the renegade warlock myself, since it has conceal and lots of autodamage.
It is a hard band to maneuver. I don't think ethereal filchers are the way to fill it out. Instead, try:
Renegade Warlock x5
Inspiring Marshal
Devis
Aramil (or Half-elf sorcerer)
Aramil/HES gives you the 5 damage magic missiles you need to make it so that the renegade warlock brigade can kill a monk that makes the morale check.
Problem of course is there are other matchups that just totally spank this one. Typical spoiler band. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 3:00 PM |
| The FBs are a great option but sadly their chance to hit is very low against Gith Monks. The first attack might hit hard on occasion but the second is less likely. Still the fearless is what matters. I like the Helmed Horror as an option better. More HP, fearless and better attack bonuses. Yes not as much damage but it wouldn't matter against the Gith Monks as they have very few HP. If speed 2 truly just goes away and you can viably play any creature without a commander I see undead and construct warbands being a hard to beat option as well. One_Wing's 4X Dire Bears could be annoying as well. Lots of HP to go through and not enough autohits even with stun to beat them all. I also would love to see a LSD run into a Gith Monk band. The Monk's ability to stun the LSD is practically an impossible thing as is failing morale. After the autohit they'd need a lot of luck to hit again.
R~ | |
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General_Boy
Sneak
59 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 3:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
The FBs are a great option but sadly their chance to hit is very low against Gith Monks. The first attack might hit hard on occasion but the second is less likely. Still the fearless is what matters. I like the Helmed Horror as an option better. More HP, fearless and better attack bonuses. Yes not as much damage but it wouldn't matter against the Gith Monks as they have very few HP. If speed 2 truly just goes away and you can viably play any creature without a commander I see undead and construct warbands being a hard to beat option as well. One_Wing's 4X Dire Bears could be annoying as well. Lots of HP to go through and not enough autohits even with stun to beat them all. I also would love to see a LSD run into a Gith Monk band. The Monk's ability to stun the LSD is practically an impossible thing as is failing morale. After the autohit they'd need a lot of luck to hit again.
R~
The first hit from the FB's are 50% to hit compared to 60% for the Helmed Horror. The Helmed Horror also needs to hit both times on a full attack to force a morale (more if the Couatl is around). Also the GMA of the IM could allow the FB to get into charge position before its turn which would increase the chances to hit.
I still like the Helmed Horror but I don't think that the +2 difference in the to-hit can be the only reason to disallow the Frenzied. The FB not only forces a morale save after one successful strike but that morale save is made at a +10 with the YM around. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3518 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/07/2005 3:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by General_Boy
I still like the Helmed Horror but I don't think that the +2 difference in the to-hit can be the only reason to disallow the Frenzied.
Sure, it's not the only reason why Helmed Horrors may be better options against GAS. The other reasons are that a)HH is immune to stun and critical hits, b)HH has high enough AC to deny the Giths a lot of hits after the unavoidable strike, c)HH has a few more hp and doesn't burn out, d)HH is 7 points cheaper than FB.
Of course, synergy matters. There are ways to support FBs so that they have a good shot against GAS. Question is whether it's good enough. For that matter, I'm not sure yet that robust HH bands can be built which stand up to GAS. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 3:28 PM |
| Another interesting build may be a commander-heavy build. How about Sword Archon x2 with lots of open terrain. Discorporating Dive could be nasty.
Or how about Moon Elf Fighter with Wizard Tactician/Renegade Warlock mix and a few fodder pieces. If the fodder slows two of the Monks, you're in good shape. The Moon Elf can hit the one that gets through. Even though it's 6 activations, Moon Elf, Wizard Tactician x5 and a Wood Woad couls be fun in 8. | |
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| 2004 D&D Miniatures Champion
Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 12/07/2005 3:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gunthar
Another interesting build may be a commander-heavy build. How about Sword Archon x2 with lots of open terrain. Discorporating Dive could be nasty.
Or how about Moon Elf Fighter with Wizard Tactician/Renegade Warlock mix and a few fodder pieces. If the fodder slows two of the Monks, you're in good shape. The Moon Elf can hit the one that gets through. Even though it's 6 activations, Moon Elf, Wizard Tactician x5 and a Wood Woad couls be fun in 8.
I think Discorporating Dive only works against Evil Outsiders eh? Don't have the card here at work, but for some reason I remember that part (I couldn't bear the thought of my lovely wife being dis-corporated and separated from her lovely bod...). | |
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Faragdar the Wise
Commander
3518 Posts
Albuquerque, NM, USA
| | 12/07/2005 3:57 PM |
| | Yuppers. Only evil outsiders. Banishment and dismissal work fine against Gith Monks, though. That might be another good reason to use a Cleric of Dol Arrah instead of a 4th monk in a mirror match. You not only have a big init and morale bonus and good healing, but you have a spell with a 50-50 shot of eliminating an even slightly injured Gith Monk outright. | |
"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish." - Albert Einstein
Champion of Myopic Half-Orcs
Winner, WBC X | |
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Kumag
Sergeant
450 Posts
The Philippines
| | 12/07/2005 4:21 PM |
| Has anybody tried using Lich + Dual Clay Golems against G.A.S. yet? Emp Magic Missile or Paralyze the Giths from afar (not that hard given the Gith's relatively low saves) while your Clays slowly advance for the kill. Just make sure the monks don't reach the Lich though.
Constructs and Elementals combined with Countersong could also be hard for those darn critters. | |
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