Istari
Skirmisher
28 Posts
    
 | | 12/08/2005 11:29 PM |
| Though I don't yet have 4 Helmed Horror's (have 2) a few friends and I playtested some bands tonight and we were fairly surprised to see the Helmed Horror Quad rip through everything we threw at it.
We sort of evolved an earlier LE quad design into this one after lots of playtesting. But because we didn't actually have 4 Helmed Horrors until tonight (I bought 1 from the FLGS and split a case to hopefully get another and fill our UD sets) we never really tried it until tonight.
The band is:
Helmed Horror x4 180 pts
Snig 20 pts
Goblina x3
8 activations.
I've noticed Helmed Horror's are great at securing tiles and keeping them. Basically Horror's should be played very carefully at first. With 4 at your disposal (with almost no drawback) you can sort of dictate what's going to happen and set up "chain effects" so to speak by having Horror's cover each other to prevent charges and flanking without charging and flanking occur itself. This would be a problem if the Horror's didn't have flight because they do, an AoO is less likely to occur. Meanwhile 2 other Horror's can cover open areas and hit via range at targets attempting to gain an upper hand while maintaining
The most viable tactic against Quad Horror I've came up with basically involves running away and going for tile points, getting an early lead, and hopefully not getting hunted down by a horror, followed up with a lost initiative.
But to my dismay, this tactic didn't perform well in the end.
(mainly because I tend to forget Horror's have a ranged attack and they can snipe at fodder almost as easily as I can)
Another tactic could possibly utilize DR/fire resistant figures.
What do you guys think?
Is Quad Horror a decent band?
I understand most players don't have 4 Horror's yet but I've found that 2 Horror's can be effective as well.
I haven't really seen this band pass through the radar yet (mainly because its all new rares) and thought that perhaps it needs a closer look.
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 11:33 PM |
| A few people brought this up in another thread in the context of a GAS spoiler band, but I don't think anyone had mentioned trying it out yet.
It's on my list of things to test on Vassal, so I'll let you know when I've had a chance. | | | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 12/08/2005 11:35 PM |
| I thought about running this at some point too. It'd be pretty funny to see for one and could be a rude anti Gith Monk warband. Depending on what the post War Drums limits are for move 2 or whatever they come up with it could be very good.
R~ | |
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Istari
Skirmisher
28 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 1:23 AM |
| I also am curious to know how well other Quad beater bands will do. especially CE quad. I've played against 1 Gruumsh/champion band but the quad wasn't min/maxed out due to the players lack of multiple Orc Champs.
I'm contemplating a dual Helmed Horror band but I'm still undecided as to which support I'll run.
Gauth/Naga sounds nice and I'm sorta leaning towards this build:
Dark Naga 41
Helmed Horror x2 90
Gauth 39
Green Dragon 27
Warrior Skeleton 3
Its low on activations but has plenty of answers.
I can substitute the Gauth/GD for 2 Duergar Champions which adds flexibility to BSH spell but lose the element of control with the lack of Gauth/Green Dragon.
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Liquidburn
Sergeant
944 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 7:42 AM |
| | Four helmed horrors just doesn't seem like enough damage output for a hitter band. They hit for 30 a turn so long as the person doesn't have fire resist. Also do they have magic Damage? For some reason I was thinking they do not. That would mean 1 lowly Iron Golem would tear through them. | |
Jason Slingerland
"Why do I have to be Mr. Pink?" | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 7:42 AM |
| | Yeah, problem is that without snig, you can gang up on the horrors 1 by 1, and outmaneuvre them. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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lynchpt
Sergeant
926 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 8:49 AM |
| If Quad Horror ever got popular, Aspect of Orcus would be very happy to come out of retirement to lend a hand to the Balor. Orcus looks so cool, it would be nice to have an excuse to use it without having to expect to lose most every game [:)]
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Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 9:12 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
They will lose to the chaotic uber-beaters.
...and they will have problems with LG Couatl/DR combo. I definitely like he Helmed Horror, but the more I think about it, the more I think 1 is enough. | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 1:47 PM |
| I like 2 Horrors with the Dark Naga and Gauth. All sorts of fun synergy there. Naga lightning bolts through the Horrors, and pumps the save dc on the Gauth, allowing the Gauth to more easily paralyze enemies based by the horrors. Lots of ranged threats, lots of up close punch, and with Snig(letts) and 2 Blues for fodder, hits 200 pts and 10 activations.
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 1:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lynchpt
If Quad Horror ever got popular, Aspect of Orcus would be very happy to come out of retirement to lend a hand to the Balor. Orcus looks so cool, it would be nice to have an excuse to use it without having to expect to lose most every game [:)]
Pat Lynch
Horrors are Fearless, so I don't see what good Orcus would do. Balor can't enslave them. | | | |
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xcaliber2000
Skirmisher
4 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 1:52 PM |
| - Helmed horror x4
- Kobold sorcerer
It seems to be bad but the magics weapon of the sorcerer help a lot! | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 2:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
Horrors are Fearless, so I don't see what good Orcus would do. Balor can't enslave them.
Orcus is DR 5 and fire resistant/immune. | |
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Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 2:21 PM |
| KMelstrom won our last local tourney with:
Helmed Horror x 4
Blue x 4
(We were playing with no speed 2 when OOC. In such a case, this is a better build than Snig as it gives up 9 fewer points and has better ranged threat versus enemy fodder.)
We were talking about what beats it, and really it comes down to things with Resist Fire 5 or higher, and/or DR. Snake Eyes, maybe -- you'll lose a Couatl for sure, but you only have to kill one HH to make up the points. With enough attacks, the JAs can hit enough to probably take one out, maybe two.
CE beaters should do ok too, particularly Red Samurais.
Overall, a very solid band. Kevin totally squashed my triple-Death Frog band with it. | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 2:36 PM |
| I think Triple Frenzy also shouldn't have too many problems against it.
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 2:45 PM |
| | Triple Frenzy might have problems with that second attack. Other than that, it should go pretty well for the Crazy Chicks. I'm trying to picture it, and I think they'd need the GMA to allow them to gang up and take out the HHs one at a time (2 at a time with good second attack rolls). | | | |
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TruNutral88
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 2:54 PM |
| quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Orion72
Horrors are Fearless, so I don't see what good Orcus would do. Balor can't enslave them.
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Orcus is DR 5 and fire resistant/immune.
nobody likes orcus :( (cept for his sculpt)
I think that 3 horrors would do better than four, due to more pts left over for a better commander (rating):
x3 Helmed Horrors 135pts
Raksasha (bigby's) 41pts
Darkmoon Monk (MW's and tile grab) 15pts
x3 Goblin skirmishers 9pts
Might do well but the darkmoon will most likely be missing a horror or two with the magic weapon unless you don't care for tile pts.
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 3:42 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
Horrors are Fearless, so I don't see what good Orcus would do. Balor can't enslave them.
Orcus is DR 5 and fire resistant/immune.
Well, yeah, that. I was thinking in terms of the original suggestion, using Aura of Fear + Balor to enslave the HHs. Any fire + damage resistant critters will give the Horrors fits.
Speaking of which, how many such pieces are out there? Not counting buffs by Couatl, Elf Pyro and the like. | | | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 3:45 PM |
| | Well I know the ghaele eladrin and steel predator both count. | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 4:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
I think Triple Frenzy also shouldn't have too many problems against it.
I'm not so sure about that. One of the problems for Triple Frenzy is that they've got almost no way to do that last 5 hp of damage to a Horror. So each Horror has ac 22, and takes 4 hits to kill. With how survivable they are, 30 dmg per full attack suddenly doesn't look so bad. One on one, with Burnout taken into account, it takes 2.5 full attacks to kill a FB. One on one, even with the help of a Deathstrike, it takes just over 3 full rounds of attacks on average (without flanking) for an FB to kill a Helmed Horror. The GMA is a big help, but certainly still less so than the fourth Horror. So this simplistic number crunch has to give the edge, if either side has one, to the Horrors.
- Dagni | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 5:05 PM |
| | The Horrors can also snipe away with their crossbows while the frenzied closes. That's another 10-20 hp the 'zerker is down by the time melee starts. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 5:36 PM |
| I love where the game is right now.
The Horrors are one of those bands that have some less-than-good matchups ... but those matchups are largely against folks that show up less and less because of OTHER punishing pieces in the metagame.
Really, whether or not it is a good choice will ultimately be determined by the actual mix or expect mix of opponent warbands. I REALLY want to know what shows up at the NE DDM Open and the UK event in 1q06 ... we need big tournaments like this to get people focused on the larger game, the 5+ round event and the bands that can survive there as opposed to a 2-4 round local tourney. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 5:51 PM |
| I suppose the ghaele is in good shape against them too. 23 hits to kill her, if she gets to use her heal. Ouch!
And a helmed horror hitting a barbed devil will kill itself faster than it kills the devil. Comedy gold. | |
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scifirules
Sergeant
354 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 7:51 PM |
| I think just one Helmed Horror is good enough. I'd use one with two or three Duergar Champions, using the HH as a beater/damage-soaker (those 95 HPs are nice). Being a Construct, the HH has a laundry list of immunities, as well as the high AC (22), and the HPs.
The Helmed Horror is a a good piece, but I'd just use one (maybe two)of them. | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 8:06 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by scifirules
I think just one Helmed Horror is good enough. I'd use one with two or three Duergar Champions, using the HH as a beater/damage-soaker (those 95 HPs are nice). Being a Construct, the HH has a laundry list of immunities, as well as the high AC (22), and the HPs.
The Helmed Horror is a a good piece, but I'd just use one (maybe two)of them.
That's reasonable enough. On the other hand, would your Duergar Champ band be able to beat a 4 Helmed Horror band? The Blindsight on top of all the usual stuff the Helmed Horror brings to bear makes them very good against Duergar Champions.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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scifirules
Sergeant
354 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 8:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
That's reasonable enough. On the other hand, would your Duergar Champ band be able to beat a 4 Helmed Horror band? The Blindsight on top of all the usual stuff the Helmed Horror brings to bear makes them very good against Duergar Champions.
- Dagni
Hmm, I didn't really think of that. I'm going to a tournament tomorrow with a Helmed Horror+Duergar Champion x3 band, so that's why I sayed that one HH would work better.
Indeed... | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Istari
Skirmisher
28 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 8:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
KMelstrom won our last local tourney with:
Helmed Horror x 4
Blue x 4
(We were playing with no speed 2 when OOC. In such a case, this is a better build than Snig as it gives up 9 fewer points and has better ranged threat versus enemy fodder.)
We were talking about what beats it, and really it comes down to things with Resist Fire 5 or higher, and/or DR. Snake Eyes, maybe -- you'll lose a Couatl for sure, but you only have to kill one HH to make up the points. With enough attacks, the JAs can hit enough to probably take one out, maybe two.
CE beaters should do ok too, particularly Red Samurais.
Overall, a very solid band. Kevin totally squashed my triple-Death Frog band with it.
Now thats what I'm talking about.
I'm sure quad Horror has some bad match ups but dual Horror's could be very interesting.
The more I think about it, a dual horror band could easily be:
Helmed Horror x2 90 pts
Gauth 39 pts
Dark Naga 41 pts
but what filler?
Basically tech with beats and Gauth is anti CE beats/quad etc...
The Green Dragon could be a good option but I'm leaning more towards filling out 8 activations.
I don't know if many of you guys have played with multiple horror's yet but I feel that perhaps the majority is underestimating them a bit.
They are extremely efficient and possibly the best point cost/utility ratio in the game.
To the authors of the toolkits:
I recall HH being in the must have list for the LE toolkit. I suggest putting it back on that list eventually.
It seeems atm,with every competitive LE band I'm designing, the HH is an auto include.
Now that I have 2 its hard not to pass up 90 pts for:
60 damage
190 HP
all sorts of ability goodness
High AC, High to hit,
etc...
Last night in a game my Duergar Champion and Helmed Horror took out:
Mounted Paladin (with a cleave no less!)
Half Orc Paladin
and several soldiers all by themselves!
Granted John missed his Paladin charge, even with that hit I may have lost the Helmed Horror but as it stood, the HH still has 15 HP remaining!
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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lynchpt
Sergeant
926 Posts
| | 12/09/2005 9:39 PM |
| I'm going to try to remember to bring the warband registration sheets back home with me so I can post them.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Liquidburn
Sergeant
944 Posts
| | 12/10/2005 2:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
Triple Frenzy might have problems with that second attack. Other than that, it should go pretty well for the Crazy Chicks. I'm trying to picture it, and I think they'd need the GMA to allow them to gang up and take out the HHs one at a time (2 at a time with good second attack rolls).
Yeah the FB's love to miss with that +9 attack. Any decent AC can pose a real threat. Not to mention that the HH's will be hitting everytime. | |
Jason Slingerland
"Why do I have to be Mr. Pink?" | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 12/10/2005 9:56 AM |
| The Horror is a solid figure, but its got some weaknesses. Specifically for its cost, it spent more points on defense and durability then on offense or speed. this will give it some match ups where its 45 points are not as effective as say 45 points of something else.
If you run 4 of them in a band, what this does is make some match ups overwhelmingly easy, and some very difficult. In almost every case its better to mix up your offense to increase the odds in those difficult matches but lowering the easy ones a tiny bit. The situations where its better to run 4 Horrors are specific match ups or fields where you know for a fact you will be facing a lot of your easy match ups in a row.
I like the horror, but I don't think more than 2 in a band would be very desirable in a field as diverse as it currently is. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 12/10/2005 10:06 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
KMelstrom won our last local tourney with:
Helmed Horror x 4
Blue x 4
This is genius (or madness, it's hard to tell them apart sometimes). Nothing has to make a morale save anyway, so commanders are irrelevant. The map doesn't matter much for the Helmed Horrors, and the Blues will just have to adapt to bad line of sight situations.
Dave | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 12/10/2005 3:11 PM |
| | Istari- That's pretty much the band I'd posted on page 1. Fill out with Snig and Snigletts and 2 Blues. 200 pts, 10 activations. | |
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Dug The Thug
Skirmisher
6 Posts
| | 12/10/2005 3:39 PM |
| | What about 4 HH's and 4 Kobold Miners? This is just theory, as I haven't play-tested it yet, but it makes at least a little sense to me. The miners wouldn't give your opponent points when killed, and with 4 of them there's a good chance you could get tile points on the first round. That way your HH's wouldn't be as stressed to land on victory areas to get tile points. If your opponent travels to the side of the map to kill the KM's, then your HH's can concentrate on doing more important things (like doing damage to key pieces). What do 4 Blues do but give your opponent 20 (almost) free points? The HH's ranged attack will do as much damage as a mind thrust. Timber wolves would probably work too, as they can move quickly to get tile points. But like I said, this is just a theory so far. Comments? | |
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Dug The Thug
Skirmisher
6 Posts
| | 12/10/2005 3:44 PM |
| | But your opponent will get points for killing Timber Wolves too... | |
Wouldn't an Abyssal Maw make an AWESOME pet? | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 12/10/2005 5:08 PM |
| | One helmed horror seems to work fine for me. It's nice to have a creature that your opponent isn't real likely to concentrate attacks on. Now that I think about it, I feel like the helmed horror is kind of like a more offensive ZWD--immune to lots of stuff, and often not worth the effort of taking out when other units are on the table. | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 12/10/2005 5:43 PM |
| I've played against bands that included 1 HH a few times and in all cases, I ignored it to go after softer targets. They have such high AC and HP that it takes a real concerted effort among all your hitters to kill one, so it usually gets passed over in favor of easier targets, even targets like Efreeti and Duergars.
That strategy of avoidance might have to change though if I faced bands that fielded 2 or more HHs. | |
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Slippy Fist
Skirmisher
48 Posts
| | 12/10/2005 6:36 PM |
| | Ive been playing dual HH's alot and the only bad match up Ive had with them is the Balor. Didnt have to worry about the enslave but the fire immun and DR makes you do only 5 dmg. Imho having a little variety is good in any warband. But nothing is ever absolute in minis. | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 12/11/2005 6:03 AM |
| | Dark Moon Monk is handy if You're running 2+ Horrors. | |
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