Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
    
 | | 12/21/2005 9:41 AM |
| I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who does not favor dwarves as a group in regards to...I don't want to run an all dwarf band. However, I do feel that aside from a piece or two, dwarves as a group lack the speed and hard-hitting that make for great pieces in skirmish. So, what will it take to satisfy those 'all dwarf band' players who want to see it happen? And don't scoff, the 'all monk band' players now have the GAS bands.
I'm thinking to make dwarves a viable option as a group, we need to see a commander who can pull CG dwarves over to LG warbands, and a Dwarven Barbarian with some serious levels on it that is lightly armored, hard-hitting and fast. So, I think we're looking at two pieces.
Perhaps there is a Dwarven prestige class that could satisfy the conditions without having to pull from CG. But, like I said, I'm no dwarf expert so I really don't have an idea outside of what I just wrote. | | | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 9:56 AM |
| I think Dwarves are missing only one thing to make a competitive warband: a solid, aggressively costed secondary commander with a very good commander effect (and Willing to Follow).
This would allow the use of both the Battleplate Marshal and this hypothetical secondary commander, perhaps along with the Dwarven Ancestor, which right now is definitely iffy for the price. (Not terrible ... just iffy.) Having a backup commander fits in nicely with the militarism of dwarves.
The Dwarf Sargeant, if it were 10 points cheaper, would be in line with what I'm thinking. A commander that granted Bold to dwarves would also work. Possibilities are endless, and as a fan of dwarves, I take the Battleplate Marshal's GDMA ability as a sign that the designers really would like to make a Dwarf band work. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 9:56 AM |
| Dwarves now have:
Solid commanders [Battle Plate]
Solid support [Wiz, Raider, Artificeer, Ancestor]
Solid Fodder [Gold Dwarf Fighter, Hill Dwarf Warrior]
All that they're lacking really is some solid hitters, capable of dealing some real damage.
Samurais just don't hit for enough.
A commander with warband building [all dwarves] that could pull in Duergers could do it. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 9:57 AM |
| Im playing 100pt constructed tommorow and am considering running a BPM, 3 Gold Dwarf Soldiers and a Hill Dwarf Warrior
Its not perfect.. but 4 hard to hit, nearly fearless models swinging for 15-20 points each.. um. I think its viable and fun. Not tier 1.. but who cares. "theme" bands arent going to be viable usually if you stick purely to the theme.
What would it take? I think its as solid as its going to be. What they WANT? something equivalent to the Duergar Champion that swings for 15 at least 2x and has high to hits with a solid AC at 35 points or so. In Lawful Good.
Yeah, it could happen. A dwarven battlerager or champion would probably be in that damage range. hell, the 'rager could easily hit for 20 at the expense of some AC. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 10:01 AM |
| Ok, Dwarves.
*shakes head sadly*
Dwarves, Dwarves, Dwarves...
How about this, for starters. Since they tend to carry around axes AS LARGE AS THEIR WHOLE BODIES, why can't we see a Dwarf with 20, 25, 30 magic damage? There's a general feeling of, "it breaks the LG archetype", but perhaps this needs to be broken.
The bulk of LG are heavily-armored, slow-moving guys, and in the current metagame that just doesn't cut it. It really never did. What's the good of boosting an AC to 25, when an enemy has a +15 or more attack bonus? And two attacks, either of which does enough damage to kill or rout? Or worse, autodamage that bypasses AC altogether? AC alone isn't enough to make a piece good.
Dwarves can stay slow and heavily armored, but fer gosh sakes let's see some appropriate damage output. The BPM w/Retaliate & GDS w/15 magic damage were large steps in the right direction. Let Dwarves be the enemy you must come to, but fear to base. | | | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 10:02 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
A dwarven battlerager or champion would probably be in that damage range. hell, the 'rager could easily hit for 20 at the expense of some AC.
Unfortunately, a Battlerager isn't likely to be LG. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 10:21 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Themes are a dangerous trap anyway guys ... how many actual theme bands out there really *do* work?
Good point.
However a theme warband can be viable if they really commit to the single-type synergies. Give them another commander with a too-good Commander Effect, but only if the warband consists entirely of creatures of type dwarf. Something like +5 damage and +2 movement for all dwarves. | |
Rhane
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jos1-1
Sergeant
829 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 10:28 AM |
| | Add a dwarf wizard and say he "summoned" an iron golem before the match and use that in your add. | |
Poor student looking for minis =D | |
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lantern314
Sergeant
684 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 10:36 AM |
| Artillery.
From my experience as a Mechwarrior Highlander player, slow, high defense bands work when you can make the choice to stand back and lob things at you, or to engage you a painful choice. As slow as dwarves are now there is no down side to standing back and firing arrows and spells at them. You also have the option to outmaneuver and overwhelm them one at a time. If they had some sort of ballista type weapon maybe powered by arcane energy that could reach out and hurt you in a way that you couldn't match, you would be forced into melee combat. It would also allow them to pick a defensible spot so that you couldn't outmaneuver them in a meaningful way. | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 10:50 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Themes are a dangerous trap anyway guys ... how many actual theme bands out there really *do* work?
Well, monk bands for one does work... [)], but that's the exception rather than the norm... | |
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 11:17 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by evil_boy
quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Themes are a dangerous trap anyway guys ... how many actual theme bands out there really *do* work?
Well, monk bands for one does work... [)], but that's the exception rather than the norm...
Humm, Orcs too ;) | |
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lantern314
Sergeant
684 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 11:24 AM |
| | Sure theme bands don't work, but I think that there area lot of people who would be much happier if they did. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 11:38 AM |
| "monk" is not really a theme band. That's like saying "fighter" or "barbarian" bands work ... far cry from "elf", "drow", etc.
I suppose a theme could be just about anything you want ... so let's just say "racially themed bands" don't generally work.
Lantern - your point about ranged capabilities are spot on, but I just don't see LG getting that so I avoided the conversation. A number of folks tried to make DPS or other denial bands work by backing them with offensive spell casters, etc. Frankly, that doesn't work so well. Now, the Arcane Ballista could be useful in that respect.
I think it is more likely that LG will be able to control map selection and choose defensive maps using their insane commander ratings. A could a commander who allows forward-setup could also work ... (similar to scout). | |
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DrX
Sergeant
408 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 12:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lantern314
If they had some sort of ballista type weapon maybe powered by arcane energy that could reach out and hurt you in a way that you couldn't match, you would be forced into melee combat.
I wonder what this "arcane"-powered "ballista" might be called, and if it would ever make it to the covr of a booster...[)] | |
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lantern314
Sergeant
684 Posts
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2005 D&D Miniatures Champion
Fenris
Sergeant
974 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 12:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
A map or maps that allows a slow band to "defend".
Mushroom Cavern could work. You'd need to break the theme enough to include a Loyal Earth Elemental, so you can burrow for assault points and then defend that middle area with the two victory areas.
Say, a band like:
Battle Plate Marshal
Loyal Earth Elemental
Dwarf Ancestor
Gold Dwarf Soldier x 4
Tordek, Dwarf Fighter
It's not going to win your local qualifier, but it's not terrible.
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 2:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Fenris
It's not going to win your local qualifier...
Which means it's not "there" yet.
I have no problem in buying a LEE or Iron Golem in a "Dwarf" theme band, just as I'd buy Aspect of Lolth, Spider of Lolth, LDD, Kuo-Toa, even a Drider in a "Drow" band. It all comes down to what you associate with the core race, which is going to be slightly different from one player to the next.
Throwing a LEE in with the Dwarves allows easier VA grabbing, and it also gives them a fighter with some "punch". Same with the IG - and the best strategy for dealing with IG is to ignore it and kill the Commander. But if the Commander is a BPM surrounded by GDS or Phalanx Fighters... not so easy.
This same idea holds for other race-themed bands. Sure, Orcs are kick-arse, but they're even better as part of a larger theme that includes critters like the Ogre Ravager. Elves may never have a racially pure Tier 1 band, but they make some of CG's best support units. We'll probably never have an "all-Dwarf" Tier 1 band, because the Dwarves were never meant to work alone. | | | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 2:36 PM |
| What is needed is one of two things:
A) A beater of similar quality to the duergar champion
or
B) A way to significantly boost the attack bonus of the gold dwarf soldier without impacting the band's offense | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 3:00 PM |
| IMO, an all-dwarf Assault warband is really missing just one thing: The ability to acquire victory points as reliably and as quickly as other competitive warbands.
Some things that would help:
- A credible ranged threat. (As mentioned by others.) This would allow the rest of the dwarves to form a defensive wall, which (hopefully) forces your opponent to come to you.
- Higher speed. If the Gold Dwarf Soldier had a way of getting to Speed 6, it would be a good (and maybe great) assault point grabber for round 2 and beyond. Grant Dwarves Move Action is *almost* good enough; it gives your dwarves the equivalent of Speed 5 if you factor the bonus over the course of two rounds. If the Battle Plate Marshal had two uses of GDMA, that would probably be enough if you pair it with some Dwarf Samurais.
But beyond that, I think dwarves have everything they need. Once you account for commander effects and/or smites (for Dwarf Samurai), they probably do enough damage to compete.
...so I think the upshot is that a dual-Battle Plate Marshal warband could potentially be tier 1.5, if you include one non-dwarf creature for truly reliable tile grabbing. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 3:06 PM |
| Hmmm, dual BPMs.
I guess that could look like:
BPM x2
Dwarf Samurai x3
Dwarf Merc
Hill Dwarf
Timber Wolf
The problem is the 2nd BPM is awfully expensive for what you're getting out of it - it isn't a strong offensive piece by itself, so really you're paying 43 points for a 2nd GMA and a lot of stuff that doesn't really stack.
I do agree that the samurai should probably be the dwarf hitter of choice right now. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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TroglodyteWizard89
Warrior
346 Posts
USA
| | 12/21/2005 3:09 PM |
| | When i heard about the dwarf ancestor, I was instantly thinking "here is our help for dwarfs, i nice 25-30 magic damage one hit, with the high attack bonus us dwarf fanatics crave!" instead, we got a big +11 for 20 magic bummer. Not saying it isnt fun to use, but not what i was hoping for. | |
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D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 3:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Hmmm, dual BPMs. I guess that could look like...
Yeah. I'd be concerned that you have too many front-line guys there, and you'd be unable to concentrate attacks where you need them. You could do something like this:
BPM x2
Dwarf Sam x2
Dwarf Raider x2
Timber Wolf
Man-at-Arms
(or for pure dwarves, use two Hill Dwarf Warriors for the last 8 points)
Treat one of your Battle Plate Marshals as a front-line fighter. The GDMAs compensate somewhat for the Slow Ranged Attack of the Dwarf Raiders, who should be able to get in a position where they make ranged attacks every single round of combat. That's not bad for a piece that hits for 10 damage at range.
quote:
The problem is the 2nd BPM is awfully expensive for what you're getting out of it - it isn't a strong offensive piece by itself, so really you're paying 43 points for a 2nd GMA and a lot of stuff that doesn't really stack.
Agreed, mostly. The BPM is easily worth more than 25 points for its own melee ability. (Compare to the Anvil of Thunder.) So you're paying somewhere less than 18 points for a 2nd GDMA, and a backup commander 7, which isn't a complete waste. You're also paying an opportunity cost of not having another creature to benefit from a GDMA. | |
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Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 3:47 PM |
| | Well, I think it is worth a try. 2 samurais and an anvil of thunder doesn't really feel like quite enough melee beef to me though, especially since if you want the retaliation bonus you have to weather their attacks first. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Balrog
Sneak
169 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 5:36 PM |
| think that 2 bmps compromises your damage output too much. also i thenk that azer raider is better than tordek by virtue of immune fire and speed 6 (also its an outsider (dwarf))
damage output for dwarves is key, id probably for the following buil going to a tournament, tho anything that can play the tiel points game majorly will give you some trouble.
43 BMP
64 samurai x2
21 wiz
51 GDS's x3
21 raider/artificer.
i think the wizard is just stellar, the unlimited cold orbs handle non undead filler very well, and the bigbys is save 20. as for raide rvs, artificer, the +2 ac is very relevant and it can be a key player v constructs, but raider is probably better becaue you can get los to the scoring areas, and beat off dwarves greatest weakness. this badn still has no til egrabber, but you can substitute those last 21 points for something, and this badn has very high damae output for a dwarf band
just some thoughts
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D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 5:44 PM |
| | The Azer Raider is just an Outsider. It's not an Outsider (Dwarf). | |
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Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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delguidance
Sergeant
394 Posts
| | 12/21/2005 10:49 PM |
| | Pwent's Gutbusters would help the dwarves. | |
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slayer1
Sergeant
597 Posts
| | 12/22/2005 12:07 AM |
| This band could work on the mushroom cavern map.
BPM 43
Iron Golem 61
Dwarf Wizard 21
Medium Earth Elemental 13
Anvil of Thunder 25
Tordek 5
Dwarf Samurai 32
200 points, 7 activations | |
Har 25/80 De 35/60 Ar 43/60 GoL 61/72 Ab 42/60 Dk 43/60 Af 51/60 Ud 49/60 WD 50/60 | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 12/22/2005 4:21 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by slayer1
This band could work on the mushroom cavern map.
BPM 43
Iron Golem 61
Dwarf Wizard 21
Medium Earth Elemental 13
Anvil of Thunder 25
Tordek 5
Dwarf Samurai 32
200 points, 7 activations
If the MEE fits into the dwarf theme -- and I agree it does -- you're better off dropping the MEE and AoT and picking up a LoEE and Hill Dwarf. | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 12/22/2005 6:58 AM |
| Dwarf bands are fun though :)
I think in any racial theme, there will be non-pure.
LEEs and such.
In Epic, I 'equip' my dwalf team with the war forged titan.
I think underdark has been great for the dwarves, and imo wardrums will keep it going. They most of saved a few dwalf ideas for that, being a starter and all.
A battler rager would be great if it was fast & heavy hitting :| And we also get a dwalf with wraband building to pull it from CG.
But I dont see there getting 'there' for a while if you mean 'there' to be tier 1.
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 12/22/2005 9:00 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Lantern - your point about ranged capabilities are spot on, but I just don't see LG getting that so I avoided the conversation. A number of folks tried to make DPS or other denial bands work by backing them with offensive spell casters, etc. Frankly, that doesn't work so well.
That's because the LG spellcasters use mostly limited range, cone & line effects. So your back to the same probelm that the enemy has no reason to close with you. If the Warlock or Wand Expert were LG that might work. | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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dwarven king
Sneak
61 Posts
| | 12/22/2005 11:12 AM |
| I hope the Arcane Ballista is not CG, it should be any alignment, given it's a machine, but if it follows the golems rules it might end up being CG...
If it turns out to be CG I hope that we get a "Dwarf Siege Master" with Warband Building: Siege engines are legal in your warband. He could give any ranged units +5 damage, just to make dwarf raiders more viable.
For that we would need the maps of WD to have large open areas or good LOS, maybe with the rules for low objects like in SWM.
Imagine having to go trough a group of Dwarf Phalanx Soldiers, just to get to their ballista and Raiders, commanded by a Battle Plate Marshall and the Dwarven Siege Master. 15 ranged damage for the Raiders, high damage ballista and the DPS have retaliate... we can dream right? | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 12/22/2005 11:46 AM |
| Hrm - true to the theme tho not racially pure
Battle Plate Marshall
Dwarf Artificer (to bring in...)
Iron Golem
Dwarf Wizard or Dwarf Raider (ranged damage or Bigbys)
2x Gold Dwarf Soldier
Eberk
Hill Dwarf Warrior
Its solid.. but slow as hell, you will have to force them to fight you somehow.. not sure how to do it tho.
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