Anothermullen
Warrior
285 Posts
    
 | | 12/28/2005 4:47 PM |
| Looking for ideas. Not looking for a world beater, just something fun for either 12 or 8 figure warbands.
This is what I've come up with:
Grey Render 62
Red Samurai 40
Orc Champion 39
BCoE 34 c2
Taer 8
Gnoll Skeleton 5
Orc Warrior x3 9
Gnoll 3
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/28/2005 4:56 PM |
| | I'd skip the bugbear champ and use the tiefling instead. Magic weapon is not an absolute must for the render, but the extra +2 on morale saves is a big deal. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 12/28/2005 5:23 PM |
| | I second that on the Tiefling you want the better moral saves and you'll want as much as possible to win int to get aggression to kick in. Also as a magical beast you can dump some of you fodder and use the druid of obad hi for magic fang and summons to up the activations if you need it. | |
Asystole is a stable heart rhythm | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 12/28/2005 5:52 PM |
| I don't think the Gray Render is as bad as people say he is. I piloted the following all underdark band to two casual victories recently:
2x Gray Slaad
Gray Render
2x Dark Creeper
3x Orc Skeleton
I played against two lawful bands, and the Chaos Hammers are very unpleasant for them. That killed off enough fodder and low level beaters (Justice Archon) that the opponent couldn't swarm the Gray Render. And if the render gets to pick his target, look out.
I actually made mincemeat of the Justice Archons, who don't hit the Gray Render hard enough to take it out and can't hit the Death Slaads often enough to eliminate them. Considering the environment, I was very happy with the performance of both the Death Slaad and the Gray Render.
Obviously my warband wasn't tier 1 (it was all underdark, after all), and neither is the Gray Render. But if you can kill off fodder with tech like the Deathlock or Death Slaad, I think he is worth playing in casual games. He certainly isn't as bad as people have made him out to be. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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ickthegreat
Warrior
291 Posts
| | 12/28/2005 6:23 PM |
| | i used Grey Render and Ryld together with some great effect. that and random filler. most lolth stings. | |
trades pending: (0)
everything is perfectly going out of control
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hardinjmm
Sergeant
573 Posts
Madison, WI
| | 12/28/2005 6:52 PM |
| Did you mean Death Slaads, Gristlemane? Anyway, I've had some fun with the following band:
1x Ryld Argith
1x Drow Wizard
1x Grey Render
1x Drow Arcane Guard
1x Xen'drik Champion
2x Orc Warrior
It is not the most powerful band, but I wanted to make a CE band that did not involve the classic quad hitters.
Cheers,
Jon | | | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 12/28/2005 7:16 PM |
| I really think the Grey Render looses out with it's limitations. They can and often will make it do very little other than kill fodder for a few turns of each game. With it's cost I don't see it being as effective as the old goodies for CE, especially for assault format. It does however have a good Justice Archon killing factor in it's Aggression and Rend and will probably not rout or die against Gith Monks either. It gives them a lot of HP to work through and lots of stunning to waste. So it has possibilities. I think Gristlemane's warband with the Death Slaads and Grey Render would be a nightmare for most lawful warbands. It'll take more testing but it does have possibilities I'm just not sure if it'd be worth it.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
******************************************************************************************************************************************************
Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 12/28/2005 9:32 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by hardinjmm
Did you mean Death Slaads, Gristlemane?
Whoops! I was thinking of the the Gray Render and wrote Gray instead of Death for the Slaad.
quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
I think Gristlemane's warband with the Death Slaads and Grey Render would be a nightmare for most lawful warbands. It'll take more testing but it does have possibilities I'm just not sure if it'd be worth it.
Yes. The main reason I won is that both the render and slaads are really bad matchups for the justice archons. But there's a difference between niche hate creatures and useless stuff like the stone golem. I really think that the Gray Render can be useful as a hate piece. It's not as good as the Orc Champ, but I think it can be useful as a niche piece.
The important thing to remember is that you HAVE to include fodder clearers, or your Gray Render will never get a chance to attack anything worthwhile. The Deathlock makes sense, but I really think that the Death Slaad is the way to go, especially since you probably don't have any of the other big baddies in CE if you are playing it.
Ryld + Gray Render + Death Slaad is another interesting option. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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schof
Sneak
97 Posts
| | 12/28/2005 9:44 PM |
| I had alot of hope for the gray render but after seeing a loss in every match ive seen it played in... im losing hope
placement is key and since is on a large base it makes it that much harder to not get the perfect placement
im really in agreement with the gray renders weakness
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Gnomes are small, cute, energetic, and IMMENSLY POWERFUL!
Champion of Svirfneblin and Gnome Bards!
Champion of little orange papers! (if you trade with me you will understand)
H/W List / Ref Thread
Sucessful Trades: 7
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Balrog
Sneak
169 Posts
| | 12/28/2005 11:01 PM |
| what to do with the gray render?
trade it. i am not at all a fan of the render, for 6 less points you can have a clay golem which is basically better in every aspect. the render disapointed me greatly, it looks so good until you get to that crzed atacker.....
Me: ill activate my gray render and swing on your commander
opponent: no you'll take BOTH swings on my orc warrior
Me: [B)]
the crazed attacker jsut eliminates any chance of your 62 point render being effective. the not subject ot commander effects and +11 to hits (for a 62 point fig in a very high AC enviroment) are just little holes next to the gaping maw of crazed attacker that rips apart the potential 65 damage a turn, and 125 hp. if ou just realy want to use the render, pair it with a breath weapon (drow arcane guard is a nice cheap one that can be useful afterwards) to handle filler and a nice high commande rating ( soth or cleric of lloth if oyu hae some extra room or tiefling otherwise) | |
I <3 Orcs.... what does that say about me?
Champion of Raistlin Majere with Epic card
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MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 12:05 AM |
| | Can your opponent still make your Gray render do both it's attacks on the same creature if the Render kills his target with it's first attack? Would the Render then get to make it's second attack on a different target of your opponents choice? | |
John
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 12:12 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by MackeyJ
Can your opponent still make your Gray render do both it's attacks on the same creature if the Render kills his target with it's first attack? Would the Render then get to make it's second attack on a different target of your opponents choice?
Nope. If the Render kills or routs the chosen target with its first attack, it loses the second one. | | | |
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fritz
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 12:17 AM |
| why not use the gray render with GFD and evermeet wizard to be sure he is in the place u want him to be (benign transposition):
50- GFD
62- GrayRender
39- Evermeet wizard
total 151
then add
winter wolf or pegasus or griffon
the evermeet can help activations by summoning up to 6 timber wolfs | |
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fritz
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 12:19 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
quote:
Originally posted by MackeyJ
Can your opponent still make your Gray render do both it's attacks on the same creature if the Render kills his target with it's first attack? Would the Render then get to make it's second attack on a different target of your opponents choice?
Nope. If the Render kills or routs the chosen target with its first attack, it loses the second one.
are u 100% sure about this... where did u saw it? | |
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slayer1
Sergeant
597 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 12:45 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by fritz
why not use the gray render with GFD and evermeet wizard to be sure he is in the place u want him to be (benign transposition):
50- GFD
62- GrayRender
39- Evermeet wizard
total 151
then add
winter wolf or pegasus or griffon
the evermeet can help activations by summoning up to 6 timber wolfs
That doens't work because warband building is part of the greenfang's commander effect. | |
Har 25/80 De 35/60 Ar 43/60 GoL 61/72 Ab 42/60 Dk 43/60 Af 51/60 Ud 49/60 WD 50/60 | |
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Urban Druid
Warrior
253 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 12:54 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by fritz
quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
quote:
Originally posted by MackeyJ
Can your opponent still make your Gray render do both it's attacks on the same creature if the Render kills his target with it's first attack? Would the Render then get to make it's second attack on a different target of your opponents choice?
Nope. If the Render kills or routs the chosen target with its first attack, it loses the second one.
are u 100% sure about this... where did u saw it?
Guy has clarified this on the Wizards' board | |
*This post was recorded before a live studio audience* | |
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jos1-1
Sergeant
829 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 1:27 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Urban Druid
quote:
Originally posted by fritz
quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
quote:
Originally posted by MackeyJ
Can your opponent still make your Gray render do both it's attacks on the same creature if the Render kills his target with it's first attack? Would the Render then get to make it's second attack on a different target of your opponents choice?
Nope. If the Render kills or routs the chosen target with its first attack, it loses the second one.
are u 100% sure about this... where did u saw it?
Guy has clarified this on the Wizards' board
Not only that, but this was brought up in a thread based around this not to long ago.
but maybe in the 8 fig limit the crazed attack wont be that bad as fodder wont be flooding the place. | |
Poor student looking for minis =D | |
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hardinjmm
Sergeant
573 Posts
Madison, WI
| | 12/29/2005 1:45 AM |
| I believe that the Render can work if you have methods of eliminating fodder. In my build, I had included the Drow Wizard (with Snilloc's Snowball Swarm) and the Drow Arcane Guard (with Empowered Burning Hands) for that purpose.
Cheers,
Jon | | | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 1:52 AM |
| Crazed Attacker isn't as much of a drawback if you kill the fodder to begin with. Deathlocks, Death Slaads, Red Samurai, Drow Wizard, etc. can all do that for you. Substituting a Gray Render for a Clay Golem is a big mistake; the latter is a support creature and the former has to be built around.
Sometimes I wish I were a better pilot so I could show people what I mean in these situations. But my point is that the Gray Render, the Thri-Kreen Barbarian, the Chraal, and so on come from a different mold than the Orc Champ. With the Orc Champion/Ogre Ravager/Red Samurai you can just swap them out to suit the metagame you will be facing.
You can't do that with newer creatures with drawbacks. They require you to build the whole warband to suit them. If you play Chraals with a weak commander they will suck. The same with the Thri-Kreen and Gray Render. Obviously I'm not saying that the Thri-Kreen or Gray Render as as good as the Chraal. But to use them effectively, you need to build in the correct support for them. In the Gray Render's case, that means fodder clearers.
That's why I personally prefer hardinjmm's band to Anothermullin's. The drow wizard and Xendrik Champion can clear out fodder so the Gray Render will get his attacks at more important creatures. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 3:34 AM |
| True, the grey render would suck less if you have ways to clear fodder. But call me a boring person, but wouldn't the points spent on the render+fodder clearers be better spent on say 2-3 regular hitters?
End of the day what we need is efficiency. Before we think about how to improve a certain piece, shouldn't we first see if it's worth it? Does the piece have the necessary potential that makes supplementing it with other pieces worth it? And even if it does, would the supplemental pieces that's required to help it along be too expensive and/or inefficient?
65 possible damage from the render sounds good. But an orc champ/EoG can do 50 for a lot less points. And to get that 65 dam the render must act first, and hits with both attacks. These are highly unreliable factors that prevents the render from being a good skirmish piece. What if it doesn't get to act first, or it has to move to reach the opponent, or if 1 of the attacks miss? The render is just a piece that I don't think has the potential to be in any competitive band. | |
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CSchroder
Sergeant
413 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 5:57 AM |
| | Red Sam is a regular hitter that can be combined with the Render to clear fodder. I actually had a build with dual Red Sams and the Render but I've never successfully gotten off a rend so my fondness for the Gray Render has waned. | |
Charles AKA The Beardless One, Proud Member of Team Amish | |
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Liquidburn
Sergeant
944 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 7:53 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by CSchroder
Red Sam is a regular hitter that can be combined with the Render to clear fodder. I actually had a build with dual Red Sams and the Render but I've never successfully gotten off a rend so my fondness for the Gray Render has waned.
Good thought though, it does seem that if you can clear fodder that you can do some good damage with the Render. The High AC bands really hurt the render though and the red sams only have a +14 so that could also hurt you. LG GAS bands would do well against it I think. | |
Jason Slingerland
"Why do I have to be Mr. Pink?" | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
926 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 8:12 AM |
| I like the Gray Render (in 8 activations only) in the following build:
Drow Cleric of Lolth
Gray Render
Red Samauri
Orc Champion
Cursed Spirit
Orc Warrior x2
The DCoL gives MW to Render and a good init so that he gets his Aggression bonus more frequently. The Cursed Spirit provides flanking so that the Render is usually swinging at a total of +14/+14 to bring off the rend quite frequently.
Between the DCoL slashing darkness, the Red Sam fire cone and the Orc Champion's cleave, you should at most have to forgo one turn of Agression bonus while you clear out the (typically 3 or 4) enemy fodder. After that, the Render should be a valuable asset.
This warband trades away some of a traditional CE beater band's damage output for significantly enhanced resiliency. I think it is probably not quite as good for a large tournament as the traditional bands, but it can come in handy in certain metagames. I have won some casual games with it, and will be trying it in a tournament soon.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 2:52 PM |
| | Yeah, looking at the render and thinking only about the damage output isn't really the right way to look at it. Let's not forget the thing has AC 19 and 125 hp! | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 5:01 PM |
| | Also if you combine the Render with orc champ red sams you'll find that alot of opponents will be concerned with positioning fodder/blockers around the render to minimizes its potential for harm. this could leave openings you can exploit with the fast hitters to take out commanders and other support pieces. | |
Asystole is a stable heart rhythm | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 12/29/2005 7:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
Yeah, looking at the render and thinking only about the damage output isn't really the right way to look at it. Let's not forget the thing has AC 19 and 125 hp!
AC 19 is actually rather low, and and 125 hp is just 2 chops more than any other regular beater, 1 if it fails an MC.
My point is, the render is just not worth it. Picture a render and 2 hitter CE band. Against quad CE, it's going to get out-beaten in terms of sheer damage output. Against high AC lawful beaters, it's going to have trouble landing both attacks or activating first to get off a rend.
A render that doesn't act first is no better than a CE hitter in terms of damage output, and a render that misses 1 attack is worse than a CE hitter. AND it does non-magical damage. And what about situations where you lose the 2nd attack? Fodder aside, what if you were forced to attack an orc champ with 15hp or less? The second attack is gone too, and the grand total damage output even with standing still is 15, when there's an EoG or orc champ waiting to do 50 damage to you.
Is the 22+ more points you're paying for the render worth the additional 45hp and slightly higher AC? By itself, yes, but coupled with the lower damage and the fact that this 22+ points means you'll have to drop a 4th hitter in the band makes it not worth it. | |
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