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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
    
 | | 12/31/2005 9:01 AM |
| When underdark has just been released, there were quite a few pieces that showed a lot of promise, at least initially. Now all that people are talking about are helmed horrors, duergar champs and gith monks (and maybe death slaads too).
Where has pieces like the marut, slayer of domiel, rikka, MDP gone to? Have people done playtesting them and found them lacking? Are they just not good enough? Or are people just too caught up with the other flashier pieces for the moment? Will we see a resurgence in interest in these pieces?
On a sidenote, where has the big players of angelfire gone too? The chraal, JA, and even the archmage, where do they stand in the current environment? | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 12/31/2005 9:25 AM |
| I was looking again at Rikka last night. I think that the piece has a lot of promise. I'm pretty sure CG is in a new place, somewhere it hasn't been since Aberrations--in disarray. The Inspiring Marshal still can work, but it's looking like three FBs is really the way to go anymore if you're going to play this super-high-speed threat band. There are other new combinations to spring from the minds of great players and I'm thinking Rikka may be in some of those. Compensating for her low level shouldn't be that hard to do.
The Slayer of Domiel is taking a back seat while the Gith Monks receive all the applause. But, I think that the Slayer is a potentially game-breaking piece and it can probably be put into a band that will carry it to victory. However, it's much less forgiving than many of the other pieces.
That's probably much of the reason why other pieces are getting all the consideration. The Helmed Horrors are very forgiving (especially in packs), and even the Gith Monks can be, once you realize what you have to do with the Young Master.
I've never seen the MDP used, and only have read a few reports where it didn't seem that big a threat. The Marut retains a place in the game, but suffers the same current fate as the Slayer.
The Chraal can still do well. I think people are still working out the implications of Underdark before they get to the serious task of digging deep into their collections to field serious bands.
Honestly, I think a lot of good players are going to be taking seriously the huge variety of successful bands they might face. I'm really curious to see how the forum discussion develops around April and May.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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azuretide
Sergeant
407 Posts
| | 12/31/2005 10:00 AM |
| I don't think that you will see an archmage in 200 pt serious environments anytime soon its just too many points and not that sturdy, Rikka might still have a chance she is a very good piece. I used to love JA's but I have used them far less now that underdark is out alot of high ACs make it difficult to use them effectively without having to put a bunch of buffers in the band.
I have to say though I think that the majority of underdark is risky to play against solid bands. Which is why helmed horrors, duergar, and giths are so popular they are extremely solid pieces for their points. | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 12/31/2005 10:49 AM |
| | I'm still testing a lot of underdark as I haven't had a chance to play as much as I would like lately. Still my attempts have been more towards the "core" figs, and not the experimental figures. | |
Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
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jos1-1
Sergeant
829 Posts
| | 12/31/2005 10:56 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by azuretide
I don't think that you will see an archmage in 200 pt serious environments anytime soon its just too many points and not that sturdy, Rikka might still have a chance she is a very good piece. I used to love JA's but I have used them far less now that underdark is out alot of high ACs make it difficult to use them effectively without having to put a bunch of buffers in the band.
I have to say though I think that the majority of underdark is risky to play against solid bands. Which is why helmed horrors, duergar, and giths are so popular they are extremely solid pieces for their points.
I dout that, depends where you live too really. In tourment play the acremage does rather well. no one in my local shop likes him so no one plays him but he is playable.
And the rikka for the point cost is uber good. Just that see can ran lot is her only down fall. | |
Poor student looking for minis =D | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 12/31/2005 12:31 PM |
| | I think we're still in the experimental stages of Underdark. Our local tourneys have been on hold for a few weeks for the holidays, so there are probably a bunch of bands built that just need a chance to be tried out. | | | |
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scifirules
Sergeant
354 Posts
| | 12/31/2005 1:48 PM |
| | I've seen the Marut played loads of times at my local tourneys. It's a powerful piece, just that it's hit points are a bit low. Luckily, a Marut with a buffed AC of 28 (I'm serious) doesn't have to worry about getting hit at all. | |
Check out my DDM Blog: http://scifirules.livejournal.com
"I will pay my dues when you send me my tusks!" -Strong Bad
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WotDQ Called Shot: Large Green Dragon (VINDICATED) | Blood War Called Shot: Large Brass Dragon | Unhallowed Called Shot: Skeletal Troll
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 12/31/2005 3:25 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Orion72
I think we're still in the experimental stages of Underdark. Our local tourneys have been on hold for a few weeks for the holidays, so there are probably a bunch of bands built that just need a chance to be tried out.
Yeah, I reckon so. Who remembers the big pause after Angelfire where there appeared to be a large dearth of comments about some pieces that looked initially promising, and suddenly the metagame 'appeared' to apparently snap in half with the emergence of Chraals in particular. Slayer of Domiel Marut and Rikka have the stats for sure, it's just that neither of them lend themselves to a more 'obvious' kind of build (no offence aimed at anyone playing more 'obvious' builds, I'm one of them!) like multiple Horrors, Duergars or Giths for example. Drow Patrols could go either way, I still think that you're getting quite a lot of "bang for your bucks" at only 27 pts. Not so sure about multiples though, probably quite similar to Rikka in usage I'm thinking.. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 12/31/2005 4:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by azuretide
I don't think that you will see an archmage in 200 pt serious environments anytime soon its just too many points and not that sturdy, Rikka might still have a chance she is a very good piece. I used to love JA's but I have used them far less now that underdark is out alot of high ACs make it difficult to use them effectively without having to put a bunch of buffers in the band.
An Archmage band won the Gencon Grinder, finishing 10-0. I've piloted an Archmage band to 2 local tournament titles. Another one ended up 12th at Gencon in the main event. He's got a place, he just isn't something you can play without practice. It's a finesse band.
Rikka, I am not so impressed with. I've played in a Drizzt band and with the Marshall, and was less then impressed both times.
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 12/31/2005 6:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by kgradert13
Rikka, I am not so impressed with. I've played in a Drizzt band and with the Marshall, and was less then impressed both times.
I think Rikka requires a) a bit of luck, and b) a very good pilot. She is also hampered by the fact that CG is suffering from a general malaise right now. She isn't a primary hitter but rather a tech or support creature. If CG improves a bit then perhaps the better players (not me!) will consider her.
That's why I had to trade the two Rikkas I drew away. She's just not particularly forgiving for casual players who are prone to play loose and make mistakes.
As for the Slayer of Domiel, Marut and Mounted Drow Patrol, I think they are have to deal with the same problem as Rikka. They are all effective, but not in a primary hitter role. For most people it's easier to assimilate generic beaters like the Duergar Champ into play than it is to discover tech. Look how long it took for the harpy to emerge. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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doranur
Warrior
180 Posts
| | 12/31/2005 7:16 PM |
| i think the situations during angelfire and underdark and the lack you speak of are 2 completely different beasts.
for angelfire people were keeping things tight under wraps for gencon and the championship. people didn't want to discuss their secret tech (non obvious or otherwise) in too much detail as the level of competition was reaching a fever pitch. after gencon people were burnt out, but revived somewhat by the underdark release.
now, a month and a half or so after underdark has been released, we're all waiting for the rules changes coming out with wardrums. after wardrums the meta will be considerably (although not completely) different, and any band fine tuning or such has to wait until then if it is for competitive significance (qualifiers and such).
as to underdark, i think there are a number of solid pieces in the set that aren't seeing a lot of discussion. i very much like the slayer, and actually am considering pairing her with rikka for a good chance at a quick big point lead. in particular i'm thinking of using the drow outpost map, with rikka popping up to flank for the slayer as well as adding damage. my current debate centers around the 3rd hitter for the band, since points are tight if i am going to include a decent commander rating.
MDP never impressed me, but the marut (especially the standard version in epic) is a damn nifty peice. recently a 3 couatl 5 marut band did very well at a local tourney, and i think that he could be very useful in 200 paired with the right figures. how about marut, slayer, CoO, another hitter, and fill? reminds me a bit of LRB in how the point structure breaks down. a finesee band, but could do some fun things.
the underdark peice i've been playing with most is the duergar champ, which has been discussed to death. i personally think the peice with the most long term implications from the set however is the kobold miner. not giving up points is almost as good as not losing the figure. | |
-Doranur
join the revolution! down with round/turn fascism! viva la resistance! | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 12/31/2005 8:13 PM |
| | I really dig the BPM. About the same cost as the CoDA, same commander rating, but a much better CFX. Even though he doen't hit the magic 65 hp, his level plus CR =19, so he only runs on a 1, and with his speed, he'll have plenty of rally attempts. | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3912 Posts
USA
| | 12/31/2005 11:10 PM |
| Battle Plate Marshal
Have'nt been able to come up with a viable non-dwarf WB. Still trying though.
Rikka
Has promise. Tried in CG and in LG warbands. Has worked well, but will take practice to use efficiently.
Aspect of Kord
Big hitter for CG & LG.
Marut
Potentially great piece. Have not tried in a WB yet.
Iron Golem
Potentially great piece. Have not tried in a WB yet. Maybe too slow & commander dependent could be liability.
Slayer of Domiel
Potential game changer. Need to try in WB. Seems slightly overcosted and low attack potential seems problematic. May need practice to use efficiently.
Mounted Drow Patrol
Another potentially good piece. Needs testing.
That's my $0.02 worth.
Cheers. | |
Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 12/31/2005 11:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by taliesin
I really dig the BPM. About the same cost as the CoDA, same commander rating, but a much better CFX. Even though he doen't hit the magic 65 hp, his level plus CR =19, so he only runs on a 1, and with his speed, he'll have plenty of rally attempts.
Its not about him failing MCs, chances of that happening is really so low. It's about him dying easily. 60hp means dead after 2 30dam whacks, 3 20dam whacks, 4 15dam whacks, 6 10dam whacks. Simply having 65hp increases all these numbers by 1 more.
His CE is also iffy. With CR7, chances are that the BPM will win turn inits. Then what? Do you act first and pummel your opponent, or let your opponent act first and pummel you, just so you can make use of the CE?
I'll definitely choose the former option more frequently, especially if your opponent can kill/force your piece into MC with his first 2 activations, or if I can do the same to my opponent with my first 2 activations. So in essense the CE is never really used, and the BPM is just an expensive commander 7 that does nothing else.
The CoDA, however, has the biggest heal in the game. The heals can be used to keep him alive far better than the BPM, or used to keep other pieces in the band kicking. It is a utility that can almost always be utilised in every match, which is what makes him so much better than the BPM.
Back to the main topic, has anyone been having success with pieces like rikka, marut, slayer etc? In particular, are there any good rikka and slayer builds? What about the wizard tact? As a CG player would you choose it over the crow shaman? | |
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Mortusbard
Sergeant
427 Posts
North Carolina
| | 12/31/2005 11:43 PM |
| I Think we all need to revisit the power of Rikka Waylay as well the advande of the Dromiel Slayer's double first kill. Either of these can be game changers in themselves.
Add Rikka to LG warband with the waylay and I see problems for just about any commander depent force.
Just my two cents | |
Unto Death We Strive,
From Birth unto the Dust, | |
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 01/01/2006 1:07 AM |
| i haven't had the chance to use rikka or the slayer much, but i think that the BPM's CE is very good with the 12 activation rule. most players at my venue don't completely fill out their activations, usually bringing 6-10 figures, so even if I go first, i'll have a few folks who will get bigger hits in. when the 8 figure limit hits, his CFX will be MUCH less useful, and spending those points when you could have a CODA (2 points more, but IMO, worth it) make your gold dwarves fearless borders on foolish. if lawful good can get some minions... that would change things.
the MDP is awesome, the wall-walker ability, combined with his mounted melee attack means you can soar over opponents and attack his commander behind enemy lines, any protection they thought they had is completely gone, and his melee reach 2 means he can do this from even further away. then you just hop back behind your forces. the conceal 6 is awesome as well. for some reason, my opponents have never had a critical hit hold up against conceal 6. I have an army i'm looking at for 8 activations that has 3 of them in it. maps make playing MDP even easier, since there's almost always a wall you can get to and fly from (drow enclave, *sniff sniff* smells like ownage)
Iron golem, the epic is truly spectacular, the non-epic, however, just screams for a comander assassination. one of our players had 2 non-epics in our 500 point epic tournement a few weeks back, knowing that 2 people were bringing elminster bands. the elminsters and archmages quickcast dimension door and fried the commander and he was out of some 230 points VERY quickly.
the slayer of domiel and rikka will get some testing from me in the next few weeks. I am of the belief that the slayer of domiel will take more finesse than rikka. with rikka, get a satyr in there, probably with a cleric of corellon, IM, or MEF, and the battle is half won. her abilities, without waylay, would probably be worth it for her points. and i'll ditto mortisbard's comment about adding her to LG. lots of fun to be had there, methinks!
with the slayer, you're gonna need patience, because if i'm playing you, i'm sending cheap fodder past her as often as i can and harassing your spellcasters/archers/tech and that makes for a tough decision. do you allow harassment through or do you waste her marked target ability on fodder? | |
Champion of Dracotaur- Vindicated!
T32 | |
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Zyla
Underboss
1191 Posts
| | 01/01/2006 2:27 AM |
| | The Justicator is also good, even though its compared to the Justice Archon, the Justicator can do 1 thing the JA cannot, and thats hit high AC with reasonable success, and with a higher AC for a consistant 15 magic damage, and its only 48pts, which for LG is VERY cheap for a decent heavy hitter. | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 01/01/2006 9:03 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by EldritchSoul
the MDP is awesome, the wall-walker ability, combined with his mounted melee attack means you can soar over opponents and attack his commander behind enemy lines, any protection they thought they had is completely gone, and his melee reach 2 means he can do this from even further away. then you just hop back behind your forces. the conceal 6 is awesome as well. for some reason, my opponents have never had a critical hit hold up against conceal 6. I have an army i'm looking at for 8 activations that has 3 of them in it. maps make playing MDP even easier, since there's almost always a wall you can get to and fly from (drow enclave, *sniff sniff* smells like ownage)
the slayer of domiel and rikka will get some testing from me in the next few weeks. I am of the belief that the slayer of domiel will take more finesse than rikka. with rikka, get a satyr in there, probably with a cleric of corellon, IM, or MEF, and the battle is half won. her abilities, without waylay, would probably be worth it for her points. and i'll ditto mortisbard's comment about adding her to LG. lots of fun to be had there, methinks!
with the slayer, you're gonna need patience, because if i'm playing you, i'm sending cheap fodder past her as often as i can and harassing your spellcasters/archers/tech and that makes for a tough decision. do you allow harassment through or do you waste her marked target ability on fodder?
While on paper it seems really good, can the MDP hit consistently enough to assassinate commanders/soft targets effectively? Also, with pieces like rikka and the wizard tact, I'm thinking there may be a trend towards less squishy commanders, and that will in turn limit the MDP's usefulness. Another issue is that I'm finding it rather difficult to fit the MDP into the regular CE builds. Including one usually means dropping a mainline hitter, which to me is not worth it. Am I alone in thinking this?
Also, is rikka really that good? I don't think I'll ever call the battle half won just because of her. She has good stats, that's for sure, but she also have a really lousy level.
Which is the best way to use waylay, if there is such a thing? First turn tile points? I've tried it, it doesn't work out well. Coming out when the battle is joined? I've tried that too, but my feeling was, couldn't she have done the same starting normally from the setup area?
I suppose waylay does give you the option of striking at soft targets, but is such an option worth the points you pay for it (since you do not always use this option anyway), as well as the activation disadvantage that having her off-board brings?
As for the slayer, I'm less worried about her wasting her ability on fodder. 8 activations means less fodder running about, and she can always just ignore fodder and run past them (AC 20 and conceal 6 means she's rather fodder-proof). For me there's 2 issues regarding her: her low attack bonuses and high cost, and maybe a 3rd, that of her low damage.
There usually is only 1 opportunity in every match for her to really capitalize on her marked target ability. In such instances, she really needs to hit her target to claim the points, but her low attack bonuses means she cannot do it reliably. Her reliance on flanking and melee sneak attack is also a negative point; without it, she really doesn't do much, which is a very bad thing in this era of constructs, elementals and undead.
She is also very expensive. It's impossible to fit in 4 hitters, couatl, and a secondary commander (say cleric of yondalla) into a band if one of the hitters is the slayer. So is it worth including her into a band if it means dropping a hitter to accomodate her? I'm thinking not.
So am I alone in thinking the above? Or am just plain wrong? Personally I've never managed to make rikka or the slayer work well. | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 01/01/2006 9:07 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zyla
The Justicator is also good, even though its compared to the Justice Archon, the Justicator can do 1 thing the JA cannot, and thats hit high AC with reasonable success, and with a higher AC for a consistant 15 magic damage, and its only 48pts, which for LG is VERY cheap for a decent heavy hitter.
I agree, the justicator does seem to have a place in LG.
But in LE, it is simply not worth the cost when there's so many other great hitters available. So if the justicator is considered good in LG, does it mean that the power level difference between LG and LE is really that great? Barring the gith monk, that is. What is considered subpar for 1 faction is considered good for another? When we're not even considering synergies and complementation between pieces?
Sounds bad to me that 1 faction is so much ahead than another... | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3912 Posts
USA
| | 01/01/2006 10:25 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by evil_boy
In particular, are there any good rikka and slayer builds? What about the wizard tact? As a CG player would you choose it over the crow shaman?
If it came down to a choice between Crow Shaman and Wizard Tactician, definately pick Crow Shaman.
But, what would be wrong with including both the Crow Shaman AND the Wizard Tactician both in the same CG warband? Imagine 2 FB's in your WB and using a Snakes Swiftness AND Slapping Hand (@ DC 20) in same round to give your FB's extra attacks. Mucho damage. Plus, Waizard Tac can use his Cold Orbs, EMM, and Perfect Targeting to cause damage when not b.... slapping the enemy. Very similar to having Couatl and Dwarf Wizard in same LG WB.
Just more of my $0.02 worth of WB building.
Cheers.
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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TruNutral88
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 01/01/2006 12:33 PM |
| quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by evil_boy
In particular, are there any good rikka and slayer builds? What about the wizard tact? As a CG player would you choose it over the crow shaman?
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If it came down to a choice between Crow Shaman and Wizard Tactician, definately pick Crow Shaman.
But, what would be wrong with including both the Crow Shaman AND the Wizard Tactician both in the same CG warband? Imagine 2 FB's in your WB and using a Snakes Swiftness AND Slapping Hand (@ DC 20) in same round to give your FB's extra attacks. Mucho damage. Plus, Waizard Tac can use his Cold Orbs, EMM, and Perfect Targeting to cause damage when not b.... slapping the enemy. Very similar to having Couatl and Dwarf Wizard in same LG WB.
Just more of my $0.02 worth of WB building.
Cheers.
I would take the crow as well. But running both is way too much tech i think. I would rather go for the ensured extra attack of the berserker instead of a chanced shot. Try it out and tell me if i'm wayy off.
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by EldritchSoul
the MDP is awesome, the wall-walker ability, combined with his mounted melee attack means you can soar over opponents and attack his commander behind enemy lines, any protection they thought they had is completely gone, and his melee reach 2 means he can do this from even further away. then you just hop back behind your forces. the conceal 6 is awesome as well. for some reason, my opponents have never had a critical hit hold up against conceal 6. I have an army i'm looking at for 8 activations that has 3 of them in it. maps make playing MDP even easier, since there's almost always a wall you can get to and fly from (drow enclave, *sniff sniff* smells like ownage)
the slayer of domiel and rikka will get some testing from me in the next few weeks. I am of the belief that the slayer of domiel will take more finesse than rikka. with rikka, get a satyr in there, probably with a cleric of corellon, IM, or MEF, and the battle is half won. her abilities, without waylay, would probably be worth it for her points. and i'll ditto mortisbard's comment about adding her to LG. lots of fun to be had there, methinks!
with the slayer, you're gonna need patience, because if i'm playing you, i'm sending cheap fodder past her as often as i can and harassing your spellcasters/archers/tech and that makes for a tough decision. do you allow harassment through or do you waste her marked target ability on fodder?
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While on paper it seems really good, can the MDP hit consistently enough to assassinate commanders/soft targets effectively? Also, with pieces like rikka and the wizard tact, I'm thinking there may be a trend towards less squishy commanders, and that will in turn limit the MDP's usefulness. Another issue is that I'm finding it rather difficult to fit the MDP into the regular CE builds. Including one usually means dropping a mainline hitter, which to me is not worth it. Am I alone in thinking this?
I think the MDP is spectacular. I used him with ryld and just kept going in and nailing his commander. While my opponant was annoyed by that he left an opening for my Orc Champ and that was basically game.
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Champion of Bruenor Battlehammer | |
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EldritchSoul
Warrior
324 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 12:21 AM |
| crow shaman vs. wizard tactician
or rather, bigby's slapping hand vs. snake's swiftness
the choice is mostly dependant on the rest of your band. so you have another beater who will be able to flank w/ rikka? or at least surround the same target? will your spellcaster be able to get within 6 spaces of your beater/rikka? do you feel lucky?
bigby's slapping hand advantages:
-anyone in sight can be targeted
-can allow more than one attack
snake's swiftness advantages:
-no save needed
the frequency of the snake's swiftness and other available spells makes the crow shaman a better choice, IMO, but of your local meta includes lots of low save commanders and you're fielding fast or flying beaters, the wizard tactician is a better choice. | |
Champion of Dracotaur- Vindicated!
T32 | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 12:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by evil_boy
Its not about him failing MCs, chances of that happening is really so low. It's about him dying easily. 60hp means dead after 2 30dam whacks, 3 20dam whacks, 4 15dam whacks, 6 10dam whacks. Simply having 65hp increases all these numbers by 1 more.
That's true, of course, but a 60 HP piece with a 5 percent chance of running is statistically equivalent (or close to it) to an 80 HP piece who runs 30 percent of the time (i.e., has a +13 to morale checks). The difference is "variability;" do you want to risk that morale check, or not? If so, yes, you get more HP.
quote:
His CE is also iffy. With CR7, chances are that the BPM will win turn inits. Then what? Do you act first and pummel your opponent, or let your opponent act first and pummel you, just so you can make use of the CE?
That's the beauty of it: you get to choose. Is the enemy's attack going to kill your piece (or force a morale check on a risky piece)? Then you go first, and only get Rataliate on your third and later activations. But if not, you simply let the enemy do his worst, and then hammer him with Retaliation. And then, when you win init the next turn, you get the choice again.
quote:
I'll definitely choose the former option more frequently, especially if your opponent can kill/force your piece into MC with his first 2 activations, or if I can do the same to my opponent with my first 2 activations.
The trick is to build a band who is not going to fail morale checks. Dwarf bands are great for this, and the BPM's CR of 7 helps hugely. You just shouldn't need to worry about morale, and that's what makes the BPM a good piece. (And we've not even talked about the GDMA.)
Dwarf bands aren't quite to Tier One yet, but they're getting close. The BPM is a big step in that direction. The BPM changes the basic strategy of "who goes first." If you don't recognize and utilize the change, he's not going to work for you.
quote:
The CoDA, however, has the biggest heal in the game.
The Ghaele Eladrin might have something to say about that ... | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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| DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 1:03 AM |
| Rather than run a Crow Shaman and Tactician, I'd rather take another Frenzied Berserker for a similar cost.
I've been thinking about Rikka+Tactician as a way to make a big impact on a game quickly. With Waylay, F8 and perfect targeting, those two allow you to drop some nice damage on a valuable piece anywhere on the board.
I think it' got potential, but I'll have to play with it first.
I wish Drizzt was a little cheaper, his save boost makes him Rikka's perfect companion. | |
Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 5:39 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
That's true, of course, but a 60 HP piece with a 5 percent chance of running is statistically equivalent (or close to it) to an 80 HP piece who runs 30 percent of the time (i.e., has a +13 to morale checks). The difference is "variability;" do you want to risk that morale check, or not? If so, yes, you get more HP.
But even if the 80hp piece runs (which is only 30% of the time, not really all too frequent), it may get another chance to rally, and if it does, there's no points lost. And of course if it doesn't run the hp difference will be all the more apparent. For the BPM, there goes 43pts once you deal 60hp of damage.
quote:
That's the beauty of it: you get to choose. Is the enemy's attack going to kill your piece (or force a morale check on a risky piece)? Then you go first, and only get Rataliate on your third and later activations. But if not, you simply let the enemy do his worst, and then hammer him with Retaliation. And then, when you win init the next turn, you get the choice again.
Whether you get to choose is only dependent on the CR, which the CoDA or sword of heironeous is able to achieve as well... [)]
My point is, the BPM's CE is very situational-based. There may be times when you hardly ever benefit from it. Is the option of bringing such a situational ability worth
1. 43pts
2. only 60hp, with average AC
3. having to pass up on another wonderful commander the CoDA for similar cost (if you are really hard up for the CR7)
My answer is I don't know. I've yet to try out the BPM myself, and have only faced it a handful of times (always managed to drop it really quickly), so I can't be certain it doesn't work, but from what I see, it costs a lot but brings very little to the band. Every match that I've seen the BPM in play, the opponent always goes for it fast, and it drops fast too, offering relatively easy points for your opponent as well as not being able to benefit the followers with its CE and CR. In contrast, most people don't bother going after the CoDA, its just difficult to get points from it. Better choice would be to drop the beaters as fast as possible before taking your time to finish off or ignore the CoDA.
quote:
The trick is to build a band who is not going to fail morale checks. Dwarf bands are great for this, and the BPM's CR of 7 helps hugely. You just shouldn't need to worry about morale, and that's what makes the BPM a good piece. (And we've not even talked about the GDMA.)
Dwarf bands aren't quite to Tier One yet, but they're getting close. The BPM is a big step in that direction. The BPM changes the basic strategy of "who goes first." If you don't recognize and utilize the change, he's not going to work for you.
As mentioned, if you want a CR7 commander, the CoDA is, IMO, a better choice. Also, even if failing morale is much less of an issue when playing dwarves, that's still not reason enough to play them. Current dwarven pieces are just so bad that they are not competitive, regardless of whether they pass morale all the time, or whther they have the BPM and GDMA backing them up.
I agree the BPM does help out the dwarves still, but it doesn't change any strategy of who goes first. The game has always been about a choice between hitting hard with your first 2 activations, or letting your opponent go first and base you so you can get 2 whacks back at them. The BPM does give you a further advantage if you go later, but is this advantage worth all its drawbacks? I'm really not sure...
quote:
The Ghaele Eladrin might have something to say about that ...
Hee, sorry, forgot about the ghaele. The frequency of her appearance is so low I clean forgot about her... [:D] | |
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evil_boy
Sneak
157 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 5:45 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by psistef
Rather than run a Crow Shaman and Tactician, I'd rather take another Frenzied Berserker for a similar cost.
I've been thinking about Rikka+Tactician as a way to make a big impact on a game quickly. With Waylay, F8 and perfect targeting, those two allow you to drop some nice damage on a valuable piece anywhere on the board.
I think it' got potential, but I'll have to play with it first.
I wish Drizzt was a little cheaper, his save boost makes him Rikka's perfect companion.
There's just so many choices for IF builds. I have almost no experience playing CG (though I have my fair share of facing against them), so I can't really say which is better than the other.
For IM + 2x FBs, I've seen people fill out the rest of the points with
1. a 3rd FB
2. goliath barb + wizard tact
3. goliath barb + crow shaman
4. rikka + wizard tact
5. rikka + crow shaman
6. wizard tact + crow shaman
7. Wizard tact x2
8. crow shaman x2
Which is the best option, if there's such a thing? | |
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Void
Sneak
156 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 7:20 AM |
| | The Half-Ogre Barbarian is another "new" option for IF bands. And you forgot the probably most common one, the Elf Pyromancer. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 9:57 AM |
| Things to keep around after underdark ... definite proven pieces.
Gith Monk
Lantern Bearer
Marut
Aspect of Kord
Rikka
Satyr
Wizard Tac
Elf Stalker
Helmed Horror
Kobold Miner
Duergar Champs
Death Slaad
Not really proven as must-haves yet, but could develop later ...
Battle Plate Marshal - like it, not sure yet
Half Orc Paladin - like it, not sure yet
Justicator - like it, too many other things in this bracket are more reliable for the points
Iron Golem is a keeper for Epic, not so much the non-epic version in 200
Mounted Drow Patrol / Grimlock Barb / Xendrik Champ - these all fit in a 20-30 point vacuum that exists in CE right now
Dwarven Ancestor - as a synergy multiplier this piece could become very valuable DEPENDING on future synergies
Hunched Giant - lots of HP, less offensive output
Gray Render - lots of HP, less offensive output
On the lower end things like Lolth's Sting, etc. could easily see some action ... it's easy to fit in one or two small pieces.
In reality, that is ALOT of pieces that are seeing consideration for serious competitive play. All in all this makes Underdark a VERY skirmish-useful set. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 10:31 AM |
| Nice list, Chris, but IMO you may be being a tad bit generous. I agree with evil_boy, that the clear winners of Underdark are limited to just a few front line creatures and a couple of tech creatures. Say 10% of the set is really effective, with another 15% or so that will see some solid consideration, and another 25% on top of that which will see some limited action. But is that really different from the previous sets?
In the final analysis, my personal opinion is that Underdark falls a little short in overall effectiveness, but where it shines, it shines brightly. | |
Rhane
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 11:48 AM |
| I'm liking the Half-Ogre Barbarians in my 8 activation Archmage build, replacing the Pyro (less useful in 8 limit) and some of the fodder types.
A pair of those are enough of a threat to make people take notice, and at less cost then a single Frenzied. They are also good at blocking off places for the Mage to hide behind. | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 2:00 PM |
| Personally, I've seen a LOT of underdark figures showing up in bands, more than any other recent set. I've been experimenting with:
duergar champion
kobold miner
half-orc paladin
justicator
gray render
dark naga
dolgaunt monk
I've seen Wayne playing with the BPM and dwarf ancestor. Guy has been playing the githzerai monk. Derry I've seen using grimlock barbarian and gold dwarf soldier. Synecdoche played that marut band in epic, and Feathers was running Elminster that same day.
There are still a ton of pieces I want to experiment with, too - wizard tactician, half-ogre barbarian, trog captain, hunched giant... This is a really rich set, I think. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 2:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by rhane
Nice list, Chris, but IMO you may be being a tad bit generous. I agree with evil_boy, that the clear winners of Underdark are limited to just a few front line creatures and a couple of tech creatures. Say 10% of the set is really effective, with another 15% or so that will see some solid consideration, and another 25% on top of that which will see some limited action. But is that really different from the previous sets?
In the final analysis, my personal opinion is that Underdark falls a little short in overall effectiveness, but where it shines, it shines brightly.
That first list represents figures that I have used or known other top players to use in winning tournaments. Sure, it reflects my opinions in an editorial sense ... but it isn't just speculation on my part.
The second list though ... that represents speculation.
Keep in mind that the lower the cost of the figure, the more opportunity it has to be useful. This is espescially true of figures like the Lantern Bearer which provides an excellent special ability for cheap cheap cheap.
And I didn't even mention Elminster. My bad on that one, he's certainly useful in 500. I haven't seen many reports of him being really useful in 200. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 3:25 PM |
| Hey Chris...
I totally agree with what you're saying. I was just trying to indicate that maybe there's a second breakout there. Kind of going along with evil_boy's original post, I think the reason that Gith Monks and Duergar Champs are getting more press than some of the others is that they are "game-changers" in the same way that FB's, Beholders, Justice Archons, and Chraals were. I'm certainly not saying that the Aspect of Kord or Wizard Tactician are bad. I just don't think they're on the same level as these game-changers. Likewise, from a tech side, while I like the Lantern Bearer, I don't think its in the same league with the Satyr.
In any case, I do like your lists (except for the Marut[:)]). | |
Rhane
"The focus is sharp in the city..."
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djtool
Sergeant
584 Posts
Crystal MN, USA
| | 01/03/2006 4:16 PM |
| I see a place for 1/2 orc pally. To me it seems he's going to shine in bands that feature units that 'require commander'.
I like marut...even the epic one. I tried the LG high AC band with him and Gith monk and it performs ok. | |
Champion of: Brain in a Jar | |
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aron1
Sergeant
415 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 4:31 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by evil_boy
My point is, the BPM's CE is very situational-based. There may be times when you hardly ever benefit from it. Is the option of bringing such a situational ability worth
1. 43pts
2. only 60hp, with average AC
3. having to pass up on another wonderful commander the CoDA for similar cost (if you are really hard up for the CR7)
My answer is I don't know. I've yet to try out the BPM myself, and have only faced it a handful of times (always managed to drop it really quickly), so I can't be certain it doesn't work, but from what I see, it costs a lot but brings very little to the band. Every match that I've seen the BPM in play, the opponent always goes for it fast, and it drops fast too, offering relatively easy points for your opponent as well as not being able to benefit the followers with its CE and CR. In contrast, most people don't bother going after the CoDA, its just difficult to get points from it. Better choice would be to drop the beaters as fast as possible before taking your time to finish off or ignore the CoDA.
I'm not sure I understand. If the BPM is too squishy at 22AC and 60hp, why would people not bother going after the CODA with 20AC and 55hp? Because it can heal itself? | |
Champion of the Thoqqua | |
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tibour
Skirmisher
12 Posts
Ocala Fl
| | 01/03/2006 4:32 PM |
| Another use for Rikka.
When playing on a map she enters on the victory areas. If playing on a map this is 10 VPs per turn or 25 VPs in epic level. Playing on the maps changes how you use some of the pieces. Rikka the sneak is very effective. She is tough enough to last until helps shows up. Your opponent has no choice but to deal with her leaving less pieces to go after his own victory areas. | |
"We travel the distant road,
From begining to end,
Forgetting where we're going,
Or even been," | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 4:36 PM |
| Hey tibour, I see that you live in Ocala. Are you going to the tournament at Lindquist Education on Sunday? Have you been at previous ones? I head up there pretty regularly to play. :)
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I am not gone. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 4:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by djtool
I like marut...even the epic one. I tried the LG high AC band with him and Gith monk and it performs ok.
Maybe my dislike is just a bias from my personal experience. I've played against Maruts a few times with different warbands and beaten them badly every time. The matches that I've watched on Vassal or at the LGS which have had Maruts on one side have also been spanked.
I also know that part of my hang up is that my favorite warbands right now are YM/4xGM (almost an auto-win vs. Marut), and Inspiring Frenzy (maybe not an auto-win, but still a great matchup).
Maybe the Marut is better than I'm giving it credit for, but I'm remaining pessimistic for now. | |
Rhane
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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tibour
Skirmisher
12 Posts
Ocala Fl
| | 01/03/2006 5:21 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Hey tibour, I see that you live in Ocala. Are you going to the tournament at Lindquist Education on Sunday? Have you been at previous ones? I head up there pretty regularly to play. :)
I am considering it. My brother is going for sure. | |
"We travel the distant road,
From begining to end,
Forgetting where we're going,
Or even been," | |
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