Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
    
 | | 01/03/2006 11:09 PM |
| Specifications:
Design a skirmish playable map for Winter Fantasy. It should be the same size as the other standard maps. It should include a number of fun features (difficult terrain, spike stones, whatever) but nothing too obscene. The format will be 200 / assault so no 1-space wide gaps please and do include scoring areas.
Submit your maps (links, images, supporting text) or ask questions on this thread. I'll start another thread once the maps are done for voting once I decide how best to manage that. I may have a selected team of folks narrow down the list and then open it to general voting.
Any options for the setting are allowed. Be as creative as you want. I like the idea of an outside map or a minis / gaming hall as suggested by kiddoc on the Winter Fantasy Meetingplace Thread ... but don't limit yourself to those choices.
Prize:
We'll use your map for the MaxMinis event at WinterFantasy. Chad or someone will print out a bazillion copies and if you're not at the event one of us will mail one to you signed by all of the participants. In addition, just like I took stuff for Jai/etc. at the last event and mailed it to him we'll grab you some swag and make sure you get something mailed to you. If you're at the event we'll figure something out. Besides, the prestige should be enough for you right? | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 01/03/2006 11:54 PM |
| Ooooh! Something right up my alley. [:D] I'll be making one for sure or I could enter one of the half dozen I have already. [:p]
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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BudLeiser
Warrior
218 Posts
| | 01/04/2006 7:15 AM |
| So for this contest thats...
Robb
Bud
Who else? ;) | |
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BudLeiser
Warrior
218 Posts
| | 01/04/2006 7:19 AM |
| Hey Chris,
What can you tell us about the map judging. How important are:
Theme
Pretty
Strategy
Fair on each side
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 01/04/2006 8:42 AM |
| "Pretty" is probably less important than "fun".
"Strategy" is important but don't think of it as "contains every type of terrain imaginable".
"Theme" ... well a cool map sticking to a cool theme is twice as cool. The theme / whatever is completely up to you.
"Fair on each side" ... as this is a draft event we'd probably like to NOT slant some things towards a specific side of the map too much. Still, there's nothing saying that one side might be closer to their assault scoring areas, but perhaps they are more exposed, etc. As long as the differences are not completely overwhelming I think it'd be fine. The judging should weed that out.
The first pass of folks I'll have to look at the maps and reduce them down to a votable list will probably put them through a "playability" filter ... and will probably be drawn from the moderators and special title holders (kiddoc, fenris) with maybe a few other folks I've got in mind (guyf, shoe, etc.). Once we get down to a manageable number of the most playable maps for a draft format we'll open those up for voting. | |
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2004 D&D Miniatures Champion
Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 01/04/2006 8:44 AM |
| I vote for judging the maps based on:
Creativity
Fun
and
Aesthetics
Please, by Moradin's beard, take the time to balance maps you submit. The last thing we want to do is spoil everyone's tournament by giving them a map that "looks neat" but is completely unbalanced--and hence, unfun.
I actually think this contest is a neat idea to give people a look a just how hard it CAN be to design a well-balanced, yet fun map. You'll certainly appreciate the process the Dev team has to go through. I'm sure Chris and I would be happy to playtest any submissions before we take them to WF.
All that said, I hope people go nuts with it. No reason to be constrained here, invent some cool mechanics, so long as they're simple, and fair, why not let your imagination be the limit?
I'll be tossing my hat into the ring with a couple of submissions I guess. I just need to find a program that lets me make a map. Any tips on that from you two pros? Thanks! | |
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DaemonKain
Warrior
312 Posts
| | 01/04/2006 9:32 AM |
| | Wow, this would be great! I'll definately try my hand at putting a map together. I mirror Kiddoc's statement though - anyone have any hints on what software works well for map creation? | |
-DaemonKain
Proud Mascot of Team Amish | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4463 Posts
| | 01/04/2006 10:50 AM |
| This is a great new initiative for the MaxMini's Tournaments! A New part of the fun!
I think I have an idea, but I don't have any software to make things "pretty", but I can do my best to make it balanced.
As for what software to use Photoshop would would well, as would Dundjinni. I'm going to use Campaign Cartographer 2, which is good, but nearly as "pretty".
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 01/04/2006 12:20 PM |
| I like the Icy Chasm from Robbdaman. I really think we should stick to a Winter Theme to fit Winter Fantasy.
I would be very careful in introducing new terrain rules however unless they are simple to understand and interpret/implement. The idea with the trees on one of Robbdaman's maps is too confusing for players.
One thing I require to print these out is to make them a PDF and keep the dimensions no more than 24 inches long on one side. The other side it doesn't matter because the paper comes off of a roll but the plotter can only print 24 inches wide. Also please give me at least two weeks notice by EMAIL (chad.dragonlord@gmail.com) not as a post on this board when the final map choice is ready. I'll need that much time to print it all out and make sure we don't run out of ink or paper. | |
Member of Team Amish
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My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 01/04/2006 12:23 PM |
| | I would weigh aesthetically appealing and fun over skirmish balance since this is a fun event. Who cares if creatures with ability X will dominate. Maybe this will be the only time that said creature will dominate a tournament. Who cares about winning anyway. Let's have fun. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 01/04/2006 1:32 PM |
| | Sure by the end of the month would be good. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 01/04/2006 3:50 PM |
| Excellent! This is exactly what this event needs. A fun map that only the players that go could have a chance to get... other then downloading and printing yourself.
As I do not have the time or skill to make one, I'll gladly look over/judge. I would think that fun/balanced, aestheticly pleasing, and creative should be what we judge by.
Who knows, maybe we should do this for the Gencon Maxminis Event as well. | |
Sean Banks
Champion of Elementals
Official Organizer
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BudLeiser
Warrior
218 Posts
| | 01/04/2006 5:22 PM |
| I need to know if these maps are going to be printed in color or black and white, since working with B&W would be alot easier. How much is each map going to cost you to print? Since color copies near me would be $10 a pop. That could get very expensive for you.
Also chad thanks for the Theme idea I think I will run with that in some way.
Chris/Chad can I get a consensus out you two which is more important: Skirmish Balance or Looks. If you want good submissions and a good final product it will help if BOTH the judges and submitters are on the same page for what end result you really want. The problem being time constraints, I can spend a week rehashing a map to be more balanced, or I could spend a week making it look good. To do both would require 2 weeks. (which many map makers might not have given this one month creation time limit) | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
2004 D&D Miniatures Champion
Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 01/04/2006 8:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by BudLeiser
I need to know if these maps are going to be printed in color or black and white, since working with B&W would be alot easier. How much is each map going to cost you to print? Since color copies near me would be $10 a pop. That could get very expensive for you.
Also chad thanks for the Theme idea I think I will run with that in some way.
Chris/Chad can I get a consensus out you two which is more important: Skirmish Balance or Looks. If you want good submissions and a good final product it will help if BOTH the judges and submitters are on the same page for what end result you really want. The problem being time constraints, I can spend a week rehashing a map to be more balanced, or I could spend a week making it look good. To do both would require 2 weeks. (which many map makers might not have given this one month creation time limit)
FUN, FUN, I vote for FUN.
It can't be broken unbalanced, but I think fun is the most important criteria.
For me, fun encompasses uniqueness (i.e., cool new stuff), looks, and playability.
Anyhow, I promise to do thorough playtesting with the boys on whatever map we choose. Throw it up on Vassal too and let folks there have at it. That should fix any "balance" issues. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 01/04/2006 10:53 PM |
| I will print them out in color and my costs are way way below $10 each. I have access to a plotter here at my work so as long as I provide the paper and ink I can print out whatever we need. I'd like to collect about $1 or $2 per map to pay for the ink.
I vote for something really attractive and cool looking. Something that will attract someone's attention when they walk by and stop to see what this cool game is.
I guess we should have other's opinions as I have cast my vote about three times now. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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BudLeiser
Warrior
218 Posts
| | 01/05/2006 7:28 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
I have no idea what folks will vote for.
Which would be the idea of the initial comb through, and you explaining in the voting thread to let people know what criteria to vote for. Will they vote the other way? Some yes, most will follow YOUR criteria. If you don't want to narrow down criteria thats fine, ill just assume
Pretty > Playability
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
Lord_Raven
Sergeant
391 Posts
| | 01/05/2006 12:40 PM |
| Chad what kinda plotter you have? I have a HP 1050c - I could plot some out as well and maybe get them laminated? That gets a little more expensive though.
Would be up for helping playtest the entries on Vassal!!
Great idea Chris & we should def do this for Indy as well. | |
Winter Fantasy, Wardrums Pre-release Champion
**Proud Member of Team Amish!** | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 01/06/2006 12:30 AM |
| | HP Designjet 500 - 24" wide | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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g3n
Warrior
184 Posts
| | 01/06/2006 12:04 PM |
| | So B&W? Did i need to did it in a special format or PDF will be ok? | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 01/06/2006 2:04 PM |
| It sounds like color is the plan and savng as a PDF is great.
I agree with kiddoc... FUN should rule.
FUN= playable, cool looking, no new rules, balanced
This event started at Gencon 2 years ago and is now growing. We want people to have fun and meet people we chat with all the time, so FUN! | |
Sean Banks
Champion of Elementals
Official Organizer
Gen Con 05 maxminis Event | Winterfantasy 06 maxminis Event | Gen Con 06 maxminis Event | Winterfantasy 07 Community Event | |
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g3n
Warrior
184 Posts
| | 01/06/2006 5:36 PM |
| | did the teleporters count as a new feature? they are well documented in the minis handbook | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 01/06/2006 9:11 PM |
| The teleporters are documented though War Drums will supposedly be giving us a map with them. I am going to likely enter the Icy Chasm and another one for my two submissions. I'm trying to think up some cool ideas.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 01/07/2006 1:24 AM |
| | Color - I will print them in color, just don't make them dark so the grid lines show up on the print out. | |
Member of Team Amish
3rd Place in 2007 Constructed World Championship
My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 01/07/2006 3:19 PM |
| I have a crazy thought. What say instead of telling people how to gauge the maps what say we just suggest that they consider in their votes. On the same point - I think that we should definately vote for a Fun (possibly themed to the event) map that isnt kerbusted.
Wading monsters thru the downtown streets of Washington DC, fighting toe to toe in a convention hall or rampaging your ragtag band (its a draft remember) thru a wintery landscape sounds like a ton of fun. And there will be plenty of stressful, highly competitive play that weekend. Having something "relaxing" to look forward to is.. well. cool.
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 01/09/2006 10:35 AM |
| | Relaxing and fun is the spirit of this event. As it is not sactioned it can be just fun, so the map should be just as fun. | |
Sean Banks
Champion of Elementals
Official Organizer
Gen Con 05 maxminis Event | Winterfantasy 06 maxminis Event | Gen Con 06 maxminis Event | Winterfantasy 07 Community Event | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 01/10/2006 7:09 PM |
| | What a great idea. [:D] | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 11:23 AM |
| | Any maps yet? I can't wait to see the maps that will be submitted. If they are as good as the ones done already they will be great. | |
Sean Banks
Champion of Elementals
Official Organizer
Gen Con 05 maxminis Event | Winterfantasy 06 maxminis Event | Gen Con 06 maxminis Event | Winterfantasy 07 Community Event | |
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Nixlord
Underboss
2468 Posts
Quezon City, Philippines
| | 01/14/2006 3:31 AM |
| Just downloaded your map, robbdaman. Nice work.
Not bad at all.
Although I prefer the icy chasm to have just been a plain hill or mountain wall.
Also, could you provide a similar map without the text? You know, something that can be used for rpg purposes only without the distracting texts?
Finally, a balance issue. I like the fact that you placed the start areas along the middle sides, but, unless I'm reading your map wrong, an Aspect of Kord (with melee reach 2) can doublemove and reach the opponent's start area and a Couatl that follows can fly 8 squares and actually cast snake swiftness afterwards, all in the first turn. It's a risky move, but can spell instant victory if your opponent carelessly placed a fragile commander upfront.
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BudLeiser
Warrior
218 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 7:09 AM |
| Wow the tournaments in Feb, then you wanted the map done end of Jan, now the submission deadline is the 20th. Ive been waiting for a contest like this it happens, and now I probably wont have a map ready for it. Ohwell.
Edit: Well I am working on the map today if I can stay focused I will probably have it done in time. Of course the walls are the biggest pain. Debating how much LOS I want since this is a limited event.
If anyone wants to callborate and has a great idea for the wall placements of a map let me know. | |
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aron1
Sergeant
415 Posts
| | 01/15/2006 8:51 PM |
| Robb,
I just downloaded your two maps, and they look pretty good. I especially like the non-typical starting areas. Points for creativity.
On the Icy Chasm map, is it your intention that creatures won't rout off the Icy Chasm map at all, or did you forget Exit squares? Or are they written somewhere in white? I'm guessing that you forgot them, but a map where you can't rout would certainly be different.
Also, on the Minotaur Labyrinth map, am I correct in understanding that the two Start Areas are subdivided by several walls each? This might be a problem with all the large-based creatures that have appeared in the last few sets. And if you're unlucky enough to draft only one commander (or worse--not draft a commander at all and have to use Commander Zero), those walls will present a whole different set of problems. Especially for Start Area B, where a commander placed in the farthest right square of the lower area can at best only put one square of the upper area under command. Also, the upper victory areas are probably labeled backwards, since Victory A is directly above Start A and Victory B is directly above Start B. If you can work around these small problems, I like this map. It makes Xorn and Earth Elementals much more valuable. | |
Champion of the Thoqqua | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 11:28 PM |
| Icy Chasm: Heh, my normal text labeling is in white for most maps. I made some screwy editing and strangely the copy/paste of it doesn't show up on the Icy Chasm. Not that it'd be easy to see being white anyway. Go figure huh? [:p] Duh! I'm a ducne. Thanks for the heads up! Yes there are exit squares. I'm fixing it as I type this.
Minotaur Labyrinth: Yeah the start areas are odd as they really split up the warband. Both sides are fairly put in weird ways by the squares that are OOC. Placement and commander use can be a bit more important but all can be reached if a commander moves around a bit to get creatures into command before they move or if you have a second commander. Because of the odd start areas the victory areas on Minotaur Labyrinth are where they should be. I wanted an easy goal for them to reach and most warbands even for a draft could get there in at the most 2 turns. Plus it'd be hard to block off though it could happen. A good deal of the battle will probably take place on the Blood Rock which is part of what I wanted. I think it'd be fun due to all the possible combos and play strategies.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 01/18/2006 12:32 AM |
| So anyone have any other specific feedback on the maps I submitted? I'd love to hear what other people think overall as these are a labor of love (obsession).
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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2004 D&D Miniatures Champion
Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 01/18/2006 10:31 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
So anyone have any other specific feedback on the maps I submitted? I'd love to hear what other people think overall as these are a labor of love (obsession).
R~
They Icy Chasm is the most eye-pleasing.
But you know what, the Minotaur Labyrinth looks like the most fun. I LOVE (LOVE!) the submission squares. They allow difficult and wandering monsters to become more playable, which automatically adds to the value of any weird things you might dig up in the draft.
I'd urge players to vote for this map just because of how much fun it would add to pieces with the Wild/Difficult ability that might not otherwise be playable, even in draft. Very, very, VERY cool idea Rob.
It's really looking like I'm not going to be making a submission of my own. I don't have any of the software to do it, and I haven't seen any good free stuff out there.
I would have loved to have designed an airship based battle with squares for sky terrain (flying creatures only!) and maybe an elemental powering it. But alas, limited access to design tools is probably going to prohbit me from posting one. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| |
robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 01/18/2006 2:54 PM |
| Hey Chris, It's intended to be that way. With some of the other maps I've made I have put the victory areas in such a screwy spot that it makes it extremely hard to get VP. I wanted this to be a little more reasonable and fun. To me at least being denied VP is not much fun. I'm not sure what area you're specifically talking about Chris. Both have a 14-15 movement starting area to victory area placement. The odd map design of the Minotaur Labyrinth is going to make getting first turn VP a bit tougher either way without moving your commander around to get creatures into command which will put some other out of command more than likely. I think it's a very tactical map that makes you think ahead. I'm going to guess that it's not likely there will be much in the way of point denial for a draft. Still a very fast (longstrider or speed 10 flier) creature could block off that point or engage the enemy and make it a pain for them to get VP. Fliers get an advantage of being able to avoid the spike stones area and make themselves a threat or nonflier can take a little damage to do so. And lets not forget wandering monsters, scouts, Rikka, etc. They can make themselves a pain as soon as they hit the map.
Kiddoc I'm glad you like the concept. It took a bit of thought and I think it'd add to the fun as well. Especially for the draft. Dire Bear wsould be very sought after due to the any faction and level of power it could bring under command. Wolves are killer VP grabbers when under command. Minotaur, Blue Slaad, and a huge list of possibilities are out there. I can post a list later. I like your map idea though I think there'd be too many possible broken factors to it. Imagine a Mounted Drow Patrol vs. a warband that doesn't have a flier or a ranged attacker. It could sit untouchable and constantly run over and smack something.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah..... | |
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