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Nixlord
Underboss
2468 Posts
    
Quezon City, Philippines
 | | 01/11/2006 9:58 PM |
| Warband Building Challenge II Voting Stage 3: Final Four
After counting your votes, here are the results of the eliminations that was shown at this thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13772
MATCH 1
A. doubtofbuddha (LG)
def.
B. Tried (CG)
17-5
MATCH 2
B. Draxle (CG)
Def.
A. Christopher Groves (CE)
15-8
MATCH 3
B. Aravis (CE)
Def.
A. Dagni (LG)
19-5
MATCH 4
A. psistef (CG)
Def.
B. striderlotr (CE)
19-5
The Final Four Match Ups then:
MATCH 1
A. doubtofbuddha (LG)
Village Priest
Couatl
Aspect of Kord
2 Justice Archons
2 Hill Dwarf Warriors
VS.
B. psistef (CG)
Ryld 55
Frenzied Berserker 52 107
Frenzied Berserker 52 159
Crow Shaman 26 185
Wild Elf Raider 6 191
Xeph Warrior x3 9 200
MATCH 2
A. Draxle (CG)
Ryld Argith
AoK
Crow Shaman
Rikka
Elf Warrior x3
Sharn Cutthroat
VS.
B. Aravis (CE)
Death Slaad x3
Mounted Drow Patrol
Taer
Gnoll x2 (Ab)
May I remind everyone that this is really just an exercise of opinion sharing and warband building creativity. As synecdoche nicely said, we must also assume that each player is of equal skill. We are voting for the warbands, not the player. Still, friendly arguments and debates concerning the matchups are welcome.
It is unfortunate though that some have terribly bad matchups (as in the case of uber-player Dagni), but that's the luck of the draw.
Of course, the participating warbands are free to duke it out on Vassal if they want to. It would be interesting to learn about the actual results compared to the votes.
HOW TO VOTE:
Just pick who you think would come up as the winner for each match if the warbands played against each other. So this means you will make 2 picks. You are free to leave an explanation of your pick.
For example:
1C
2D
Choices are A and B only of course.
Voting ends sometime on Friday, Jan.13.
ADDED NOTE: Kindly abstain from voting in a particular matchup if your entry is involved.
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ShadowLord XT
Commander
2632 Posts
Plane of Shadow
| | 01/11/2006 10:38 PM |
| 1 CG
2 CE | |
Disipline is the only way to overcome chaos.
Champion of Half-Golems
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Kypdurron
Underboss
1206 Posts
Broken Hill
| | 01/11/2006 10:55 PM |
| A)LG to win. I think the FB berserkers are going to go down pretty quickly. It is a pretty bad match up for them as the Couatl Kord and JAs team up on them.
A)CG to win. with out the hammers doin damage I don't think they will stand up. Another bad matchup. | |
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virginis
Sneak
85 Posts
| | 01/11/2006 10:55 PM |
| 1. B(CG )
It seems that two JA is not match up against two FB.
2. A(CG)
I like 3 death slaads(I won local tournament last weekends with 3 deadly frog :)). But, with the combination of Ryld Argith, AoK,
Crow Shaman, It is easy to assasinate frog one by one to CG. So it is bad matchup for CE, I think.
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Korean D&D Miniature Player. Kant or Virginis! | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 01/11/2006 11:09 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by virginis
1. CG
It seems that two JA is not match up against two FB.
2. CG
I like 3 death slaads(I won local tournament last weekends with 3 deadly frog :)). But, with the combination of Ryld Argith, AoK,
Crow Shaman, It is easy to assasinate frog one by one to CG. So it is bad matchup for CE, I think.
Did you forget about the Aspect of Kord and the Couatl? | |
I am not gone. | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
|
| 01/11/2006 11:11 PM |
| 1. Abstain. Though I think this match-up is hardly tougher than the last one.
2. A. Though he will have to be very careful with Rikka. | |
I am not gone. | |
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fritz
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 01/11/2006 11:32 PM |
| 1 A
2 A | |
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virginis
Sneak
85 Posts
| | 01/11/2006 11:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
quote:
Originally posted by virginis
1. CG
It seems that two JA is not match up against two FB.
2. CG
I like 3 death slaads(I won local tournament last weekends with 3 deadly frog :)). But, with the combination of Ryld Argith, AoK,
Crow Shaman, It is easy to assasinate frog one by one to CG. So it is bad matchup for CE, I think.
Did you forget about the Aspect of Kord and the Couatl?
well. init surely goes CG. and with the fast speed FB will go anywhere. Kord's HP 90, Couatl's HP 60. Just a multiple of 30(FB's DMG).
So..
2 FB can always ignor JA and try to go for Couatl's assasination.
One hit for Moral, if couatle fails moral, it takes AoO from other FB. if it success, anyway it will die.
Kord's AC is not high. and Kord will die with 3 blow of FB. Kord DMG is 30(Do not expect the Aggression!). and Kord's high Attack bonus is useless.
Maybe Ryld will play with JA.
well, from this conclusion, I still prefer CG.
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Korean D&D Miniature Player. Kant or Virginis! | |
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psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 01/11/2006 11:50 PM |
| Match 1, abstain [:)]
Match 2, B to win, although it's a close 'un. | |
Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 01/11/2006 11:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by virginis
well, from this conclusion, I still prefer CG.
okie dokie. | |
I am not gone. | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 12:41 AM |
| 1.A
2. B
2 is close, but I think the low saves of the CG will cost it, sure it doesnt have chaos hammers to use for the CE, but the low saves will really cost it I think.
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md3
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 1:40 AM |
| 1 B
2 A | |
"You are not the sum of your miniatures."
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One_Wing
Sergeant
494 Posts
London
| | 01/12/2006 2:30 AM |
| 1.A
2.A | |
Thousands of Zulu's, behind You!
Proud member of PK's team low tier beasting; CG for ever!
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Janos M.
Underboss
1015 Posts
Hamburg / GErmany
| | 01/12/2006 2:31 AM |
| 1 b
2 b | |
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Aravis
Underboss
1155 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 3:19 AM |
| 1A Agian the FB's will get torn to shreads by the JA's with the AoK (:P) backing them.
2B No, not because its my warband. But I think the low saves and low AC of CG will hurt them. Kord is only +10 on that deadly rend save if CE wins an init. And with the Taer to lower it that makes it even worse. DC 17 is a formitable DC to overcome for most factions. Rikka will get torn to peices by the Deadly Rend. She only has one attack and if she wants to attack she has to base a DS, then the DS rends her in half. Plus the DS have flight so they can deal with the Crow Shaman to prevent it from getting more SS's off. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 3:24 AM |
| 1B - Tough call but CG. Kord has a better chance to rout or die. Given averages for everything it depends heavily on CG winning init which it probably will more often, and for it win.
2A - Ryld again would win init more often and get the deadly AoK swing. With snake's from the Shaman it's lights out for a frog each round.
R~ | |
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Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 4:27 AM |
| 1 B (CG)
I've gone through this matchup carefully using a couple different scenarios that favor the LG warband, since it has a better engagement threshold (Speed 10 + reach and 12 square charges vs. Speed 8). Even in the best of situations for LG, after the second round of melee, both FBs are destroyed, as are both JAs and the AoK. It's pretty much Ryld + Crow Shaman + leftover fodder vs. Couatl + Village Priest + fodder. Because of Ryld's init advantage, and because he and the Crow Shaman can do damage faster than the Village Priest can heal it, I see CG pulling this one out. (Expect Ryld to be hitting the Couatl for 30 damage per round, thanks to snake's swiftness & the potential for crits. This assumes LG blocks flanks perfectly, which isn't easy.) When the Couatl dies, CG almost certainly has enough tile points to win, thanks to a tremendous fodder advantage. And this is given an ideal situation for LG in terms of the engagement round, which is hard to count on due to CG's likely choice of map and setup area. I just don't see a way for LG to win this one. Jesse, I'd like to hear how you'd approach the engagement round and the round afterward.
2 A (CG)
I crunched the numbers a little less rigorously on this one. In a setup that favors CE, it looks like the end of the second round of engagement offers two dead Death Slaads, and a dead AoK and Rikka, with some damage in various places thanks to the MDP. This is pretty tough for Ryld + Crow Shaman to win. But, I think an ideal setup for CE is unlikely, given the CG warband's tremendous init advantage. This should allow CG to destroy one Death Slaad on the first round of engagement without suffering much damage in return; though CE would be able (and would *have* to) eliminate several CG fodder pieces. By CG's second phase on the second round, another Death Slaad is almost certainly destroyed, and by that point CG would have only had to face two Deadly Rends. Although CG has probably lost the AoK, there is just one Death Slaad left, so CG is in relatively good shape.
Edit: I hadn't originally though of CG's obvious fodder deployment advantage, which prevents the Death Slaads from charging the AoK or Rikka on the engagement round, which changes my opinion of the result.
Edit #2: I had also completely forgot about the AoK's Aggression, which -- as Draxle described -- spells doom for a Death Slaad even earlier than I had described above. I'm even more optimistic about CG winning now. | |
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Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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azuretide
Sergeant
407 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 4:47 AM |
| 1: A
2: A | |
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muselindeman
Sneak
133 Posts
USA
| | 01/12/2006 5:43 AM |
| 1) B; If A had higher init, I could give it to him, but I see the two Fb's getting init w/ Ryld and sending AoK or one JA home before they get licks in. Also, in my book, one fearless FB w/ 90 hp, two attacks and fear 2 trumps Aok w/ 90 hp, reach etc. W/ two JA's swinging for 60/turn each, the FB's will go down, I have no doubt. I just think in this battle it comes down to who can kill the other guy faster. Thus weighted toward Ryld.
2) A; W/ 3 frogs and flanking, I figure there is a 10%-15% chance to rend each time there is two attacks from a frog, it's a matter of time until one gets two hits on the AoK (or some other creature.) If they get lucky early, its all over for team A (Too bad, sooo sad [xx(].) If they don't get lucky early, they will be dead before they get the time to get a rend off. I hate counting on winning a match w/ luck, so, since MOST of the time they will Not rend early, I'm giving it to team A because of higher init and general beatdown ability.
| |
Larry Lindeman
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muselindeman
Sneak
133 Posts
USA
| | 01/12/2006 5:53 AM |
| [quote]Originally posted by Aravis
1A Agian the FB's will get torn to shreads by the JA's with the Marut backing them.
If you think the Marut backing them makes a difference, (I would, w/ 6 higher ac, fearless and mass inflict to clear fodder) you should re-look at this matchup. There is no Marut. | |
Larry Lindeman
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Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 01/12/2006 7:58 AM |
| B
B | |
They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
To rip the boosters. To count the minis spilled out before you, and to hear the indifference of the women... | |
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jos1-1
Sergeant
829 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 8:46 AM |
| 1. A This was a hard one too pick, i think its all about who uses the warband better. But i also think that the third hitter gives the edge to lg.
2. B | |
Poor student looking for minis =D | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| |
Goldmoon
Sergeant
986 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 9:58 AM |
|
Tough match-up. I go for,
B
B
| |
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andytum
Sergeant
400 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 10:41 AM |
| 1 B
Deathstrike and Improved Initiative decide this one, I think
2 A
Tough one, but I think that CG will win | |
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Phrank
Warrior
235 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 10:59 AM |
| 1A, mainly with two player of the exact same skill, i give the edge to the LG built, two JA are more than able to deal with 2 FB, still it not an easy game
2B, i just dont think that AoK and Rikka have enough punch to take down 3 DS fast enough and with there low AC rend is higly probable | |
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Draxle
Sneak
127 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 11:25 AM |
| Match1 A (I have to give the nod to A mostly because I don't have much respect for the FBs I think they are over valued. The could be down to 80hps before they even get to base the Kord although they will win the Init battle almost all of the time. The JAs will be able to assist the Kord to much and I think that will be the undoing of the FBs) Although again this will be a close match and a few misses here or there could allow either team to win.
Match2 Abstain
I do have to say I believe the Death Slaads only have one chance and thats on round 2 of melee to rend the Kord. The Kord will have a 30% chance to fail the rends, so it's a fairly save bet going by the odds he will make it. With vastly supieror init bonus the CS and Kord will almost for sure move last and base the DS's and start combat at the end of the turn only to start combat the next round. Killing 1 DS before it gets to attack and putting the second one at 40hps if he is able to base two. From there the Ryld and Rikka will finish off the second DS, if the Death slaads go after Ryld or Rikka that will only make the match that much easier as I can take the 2nd one out for sure the next round and futher injur the 3rd if not kill it if Rikka and Ryld did damage. Assuming the normal odds on Init and attacks the Slaads will do approx. 45 hps to the Kord. My fodder will take out his fodder at range negating that. The mounted drow could pose problems depending on what he chose to do with him. In the end the speed of the Kord and the Init Bonus will be to much. Also the +10 to hit on the second attack it's automatic on the Kord. Also I can raise the Kords ac to 21 to make the odds even better they will miss 1 out of 2 attacks from the second attack.
Will be a good match, placement and maps will play a large part. Also the DSs have a 45% change to route after 1 aggresion hit from the Kord. Also their DR5 is pretty much meaningless as all my hitters are (Magic) damage. Not to mention the synergy of Ryld + Rikka for flanking.. giving Ryld two attacks at 20 damage. If 2 of the 3 attacks from Ryld and Rikka hit thats a route chance there as well.
Drax | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 12:25 PM |
| | Nixlord, I don't know how you are gathering stats, but in case it matters: I changed one of my votes in my original post. | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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Nixlord
Underboss
2468 Posts
Quezon City, Philippines
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 1:36 PM |
| Guy and I agree?! Look out! Flying pigs!! [:p]
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 2:28 PM |
| 1 - B. At first glance, I was going to pick A. 2 Frenzieds plus a Crow Shaman is pretty even with a Couatl plus 2 Justice Archons, and I was figuring the Aspect of Kord, while not great in this matchup, would be enough to give LG the win. However, on second look, Ryld's initiative bonus (and even Ryld's fighting ability itself) should make much more difference than the Aspect of Kord. It's not unlikely that the CG band will have 4 of the last 5 activations of one round, then the first 2 the following round.
2 - A. I have yet to be convinced on the viability of Death Slaads, particularly against Chaotic bands. This isn't even that amazing of a band for against Death Slaads, compared with typical CG and Frenzied Berserkers. Well, or it wouldn't be that amazing, except for the sure 70 damage kill at the start of each round. However, even if Death Slaads each had 75 hp, I'd still pick the CG band.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 3:41 PM |
|
Match 1
I vote B, but then again, I think the last CG band also would have won (the one with an extra FB and a sanctuary spell....)
Match 2,
I go reluctantly with the DS band. The other units can't quite support kord, which allows the DS band to keep am moving fight going on. If CG does get set up, then pre-emptive attacks on the crow/rikka and fodder will prove very important. Its quite close, and there is easily room for a AOK win, particularly if we see a critical. | |
Let it be. | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 3:42 PM |
| | Eh, you guys are probably right about B. I don't particularly want to be running and administrating a contest anyway. ;) | |
I am not gone. | |
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jos1-1
Sergeant
829 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 3:51 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Death Slaad are not so good against high-ish ACs and/or Chaotic troops ... AoK is both ...
huh? three hits and bye bye slaad BUT with 4+ and 9+ to hits the odds are in the slaads favor... also the angel is lvl 5 so deadly rend would be deadly on her.
But now that i think about it i can see how your right about a bad match up here, with kord doing 20 angel doing 20 and SW on kord for another 30 thats one less slaad out of three. also if kord acts first for 40 dam then SW for 30 damn thats another slaad gone. | |
Poor student looking for minis =D | |
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wolfsbane114
Warrior
327 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 5:22 PM |
| 1-a
2-a
Good luck | |
Champion of Flint Fireforge
Knight of The DarkMantle
KoK: The Easily Swayed
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synecdoche
Warrior
252 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 7:26 PM |
|
1. B
2. A
I think Dagni's analysis is right on. I would only add:
1. Not only does the CG band have initiative advantage, it also has a substantial maneuver advantage. Expect to see the Village Priest based by the Elf Warrior and Xephs screen against AoK. The only long-range threat that LG has is AoK, exposing him to the swarm of FBs; further LG has no screeners that will make it to the battle in time.
2. All those Slaads are a like double-down (triple-down ?) bet on Slaad tech, and none of it is particularly useful against this CG band. Death Slaad is a high-variance piece, and here it doesn't pay off.
-Synecdoche
PS This is hella interesting. We oughta keep one of these threads going fulltime. | |
Champion of the Green Hag | |
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avrivah
Sneak
164 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 7:36 PM |
| Match 1:A
Match 2:B
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Korvax
Warrior
263 Posts
| | 01/12/2006 9:31 PM |
| Match 1: A
Match 2: A | |
Champion of the Phoenix!
"By the leaking snot of Skurmsh[!]" - Teflon Jeff | |
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 01/13/2006 3:50 AM |
| 1) Either
I'm going to refrain from picking for this first matchup. I was originally going to pick A, but the arguments people have been giving for B have been very convincing. However, the arguments rely too heavily on the Frenzied Berserkers actually hitting. Say as much as you want about +14/+9 hitting AC 19 "reliably" but I've seen those kind of attacks fail often enough. The Justice Archons and the AoK on the other hand, with attacks of +19, +12/+7, and +11/+6 won't be missing the AC 10 of the Frenzied Berserkers much. That is what I'd consider "reliable". With band B, you're pretty much hoping to win init to kill one Justice Archon. A failed miss or two and the game pretty much becomes very even. I would not mind playing A against B at all.
2) B
The arguments for A are convincing enough, but I looked at the band again, and it seems that band A is relying mostly on the AoK. The CG band is forced to approach because it's very unlikely that the Elf Warriors will be doing significant damage to the Death Slaadi, whereas, it's very likely the Mounted Drow Patrol will be hurting the CG band. When the CG band does approach, the Crow Shaman, to be of any use, will be in range of Mounted Drow Patrol's sniping. Played out, I can't see how the Crow Shaman will get more than one or two Snake's Swiftness before being routed by Mounted Drow Patrol.
What I dislike about the Crow Shaman is how it makes positioning very difficult, especially when the opponent has a MDP... Either, the CG keeps the Shaman very close to the AoK to make it work, or the CG band needs to position all of it's other figures farther from the Shaman (so that AoK can be the closest ally). Either way, it's an unfavorable situation. With Speed 8, and MR 2, the MDP should have at least one attack on the Shaman before it even gets a chance to cast Snake's Swiftness. After one, it needs to make a Morale check...
Supposing that the AoK does attack first, at full health, before MDP gets an attack on it (more likely than not, unless the map was Drow Outpost). Suppose it hits Death Slaad #1, ignoring possible fodder cover providing +4 AC bonus for AC 26 (more likely than not). Then the CG band wins initiative (very likely). The AoK then hits Death Slaad #1 again to kill it (before the Crow Shaman is either routed or killed). We're still looking at a bad position for the AoK, and a battle between two fully healthy Death Slaadi and an MDP vs Ryld, Rikka and an injured AoK.
I'm going with Triple Death Slaad... because AoK is the only figure in the CG band that's able to beat a Death Slaad 1v1... and also because I like Slaadi. [:D] | |
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