Tananthalas
Sneak
64 Posts
    
 | | 01/16/2006 6:55 PM |
| Everyone who participated in the DDM open in Florida the Githianki monks have been played worng. We checked with Guy at Wizards and here is the following issues that are not true and making them much more powerfult han they are.
1) you cannot use both special abilities in one round, you can either use the stunning attck or natural hit not both.
2)with repsect to the young master if you make your dc stun save you do not take the extra 10 damage, only if you fail do you take the added damage from the commander effect.
3) stun do not effect constructs or undead.
4) you cannot critical hit do not effect undead or elementals.
this is just for clarification i am not pointing fingers at anyone.
Guy promised to post these claification on wizard board as well. | |
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Aravis
Underboss
1155 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 7:01 PM |
| | That cant be right. For ALL this time people have been raging about GAS warbands doing so well and no one noticing? I dont think so. | |
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Tananthalas
Sneak
64 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 7:05 PM |
| We just called to clarify can they use their special abilities on AoP. Guy when he found out how they were bieng played corrected us. Please be my guest and double check.
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Teach
Sneak
140 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 7:09 PM |
| #2 is obviously wrong. Nothing in the young master's card would suggest that the damage is removed if the stun is avoided.
quote:
Originally posted by Tananthalas
Everyone who participated in the DDM open in Florida the Githianki monks have been played worng. We checked with Guy at Wizards and here is the following issues that are not true and making them much more powerfult han they are.
1) you cannot use both special abilities in one round, you can either use the stunning attck or natural hit not both.
2)with repsect to the young master if you make your dc stun save you do not take the extra 10 damage, only if you fail do you take the added damage from the commander effect.
3) stun do not effect constructs or undead.
4) you cannot critical hit do not effect undead or elementals.
this is just for clarification i am not pointing fingers at anyone.
Guy promised to post these claification on wizard board as well.
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Nixlord
Underboss
2468 Posts
Quezon City, Philippines
| | 01/16/2006 7:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tananthalas
Everyone who participated in the DDM open in Florida the Githianki monks have been played worng. We checked with Guy at Wizards and here is the following issues that are not true and making them much more powerfult han they are.
1) you cannot use both special abilities in one round, you can either use the stunning attck or natural hit not both.
2)with repsect to the young master if you make your dc stun save you do not take the extra 10 damage, only if you fail do you take the added damage from the commander effect.
3) stun do not effect constructs or undead.
4) you cannot critical hit do not effect undead or elementals.
this is just for clarification i am not pointing fingers at anyone.
Guy promised to post these claification on wizard board as well.
Tananthalas, I'm sorry but I'll have to contest some of your points. I may not be Guy, but I'm pretty sure of the following unless there's some new rule out.
quote:
1) you cannot use both special abilities in one round, you can either use the stunning attck or natural hit not both.
While you can only use one stunning attack per turn, you can actually use both stunning attack and unavoidable strike in the same turn. No where does it say that you cannot use both abilities. If the gith monk had smite, it could use that too in the same turn with the others.
These abilities can also be used during another creature's turn, as in the case of making attacks of opportunities. This is due to the fact that, like smite, both stunning attack and unavoidable strike do not replace attacks. And since they do not replace attacks, they can be used outside of their turn.
quote:
2)with repsect to the young master if you make your dc stun save you do not take the extra 10 damage, only if you fail do you take the added damage from the commander effect.
Any follower will get the extra 10 damage bonus given by the YM's commander effect if it declares a stunning attack. Here's the text of the CE:
Followers gain attack +4 and damage +10 when using Stunning Attack.
Whether the target saves from the stun DC or not, it will still take the extra 10 damage because the follower made a stunning attack. The text didn't say it requires a successful stunning attack.
quote:
3) stun do not effect constructs or undead.
You are correct here. Nonliving creatures cannot be stunned. But they will still take the extra 10 damage from the githzerai monk (that is enjoying the YM's CE) if it declared a stunning attack against it and hit, despite the fact they are immune to the stun.
quote:
4) you cannot critical hit do not effect undead or elementals.
You are correct here too. Nonliving creatures and certain specific types of living creatures like elementals and plants cannot be critically hit. That means they will not take the extra damage from a natural 20.
Here's the text of the unavoidable strike: This creature's next melee attack roll is a natural 20
However, a githzerai monk can still use the unavoidable strike against them. It simply means the gith monks rolled a natural 20, and like any other attacker that rolled a 20, that's an automatic hit.
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PIGSNOT
349 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 7:21 PM |
| You're claims on #3 and #4 were correct, because they're in the glossary of you're rulebook. Also, as far as I'm aware critical hits don't have an effect on constructs as well [I think plants, too . . . I'll have to go and check].
I have the feeling there was miscommunication in your contact. On the card of the young master it says when you're using a stun attack, it doesn't say when you make a successful stun attack. By your comments, I would assume they wouldn't get the +4 to their AB if the opponent made their stun save. But, then how is that possible in the first place?!?! I would have to hear word from guy to believe this.
This is sad news if you cannot use unavoidable strike and a stunning attack together. But like I said, I'll wait for the official word from Guy himself.
Nothing against you, I just have a feeling there was a mix-up during your contact.
-Eli
EDIT: Yeah . . . what Nixlord said![:D] | |
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Cormulan
Sergeant
533 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 7:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tananthalas
1) you cannot use both special abilities in one round, you can either use the stunning attck or natural hit not both.
2)with repsect to the young master if you make your dc stun save you do not take the extra 10 damage, only if you fail do you take the added damage from the commander effect.
3) stun do not effect constructs or undead.
4) you cannot critical hit do not effect undead or elementals.
1) I'll wait to see guy's clarification, but I don't see why you can't stack them. Use the Lion Falcon Monk as an example - you can stack his smite and stunning attack without problems.
2) Incorrect. The extra damage applies if the attack hits, even if the target is stun immune.
3 + 4) Have always been known - probably just that you guys did not remember it when playing.
Edit - Bah! Beaten to the punch :) | |
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azuretide
Sergeant
407 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 7:22 PM |
| | I looked at guy's page and I don't see this clerified anywhere, are you sure you got it cleirfied through him as this makes the GAS band pointless since its major functions don't work like they are supposed to. | |
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Master Peon
spikegif
Warlord
5699 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 7:30 PM |
| Has anyone read this clerification on the wizards web site????
email and phone call answers do not acount for much. | |
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Lead Moderator
LCS
Underboss
1896 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 7:43 PM |
|
GITH MONKS BEING RUN CORRECTLY IN FLORIDA just doesn't have the same ring to it...
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=565437
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=437130
It took all of 30 seconds to find those rulings on the WotC boards. | | | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 7:44 PM |
| | There must be some miscomm there. all of nixlords pts are correct. Much of this has been standard since the Young Master came out and people tried LFM/Young Master bands. Stun/smite/unavoidable strike do not say they are swift actions, so they dont take a real action. If it had all three, it could use all three. | |
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Master Peon
spikegif
Warlord
5699 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 7:55 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by LCS
GITH MONKS BEING RUN CORRECTLY IN FLORIDA just doesn't have the same ring to it...
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=565437
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=437130
It took all of 30 seconds to find those rulings on the WotC boards.
Did not go back far enough to find them [:(] | |
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Nixlord
Underboss
2468 Posts
Quezon City, Philippines
| | 01/16/2006 7:56 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tananthalas
We just called to clarify can they use their special abilities on AoP. Guy when he found out how they were bieng played corrected us. Please be my guest and double check.
You probably mean some guy you called up on the rules hotline, right? Not the real GuyF himself? [:p]
Another thing that's funny is, aside from LCS's links which clearly shows GuyF saying otherwise, GuyF himself ran a YM/Quad Gith band just last December. Here's the link: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12501&SearchTerms=gith,monk,guyf
I don't think he would've gone 4-0 if he couldn't use both stunning attack and unavoidable strike in the same turn, or not get the extra 10 damage if the target saved from the stun. [)]
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 7:57 PM |
| That's correct. #3 and #4 are technically correct but I think they probably are not being stated correctly.
You can not stun undead/constructs.
You do not do extra damage on a creature that is immune to critical hits.
These are true. However, your Gith Monk within 6 of the Young Master can attempt a stunning attack (single stunning attack per turn, check the glossary for Stunning Attack) at +4 attack and +10 damage (+13(20 magic) for those playing along at home). If this hits an undead, construct or anyone else the damage is 20 ... regardless of whether or not the stun save is passed, failed or the subject is immune to stun. The Gith Monk can also use an unavoidable strike with this if the player choses and declare the roll a 20. A roll of a 20 automatically hits and is a critical hit dealing double (base) damage to most. An immune-to-crits model is still auto hit, however the damage is not doubled. If you need to be sure you hit something, even a construct or undead, you can use the strike to do so.
I suspect, as do the many others here who've voice their opinion, that your description of the situation to Guy was not entirely specific as to the events which occurred. Check LCSs links and you'll see the clear rulings on this subject previously. | |
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jos1-1
Sergeant
829 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 7:57 PM |
| | so you can go, auto crit, stun then attack? gezz what have i been doing wrong | |
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Lead Moderator
LCS
Underboss
1896 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 7:58 PM |
|
These are just the first results that popped up in the google search.
These questions, or variations of them, are asked very frequently... but they tend to get lost in the avalance of posts over there.
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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minatoman38
Underboss
1359 Posts
Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
| | 01/16/2006 9:02 PM |
| | Man. This one had me worried for a minute. | |
Robert Rosehart
Champion of the pixie
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Zyla
Underboss
1191 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 9:17 PM |
| | Unavoidable strike and stun attack dont say they replace attacks, so you can use them both at the same time. | |
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Master Peon
spikegif
Warlord
5699 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 9:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by LCS
These are just the first results that popped up in the google search.
If the wizards search function was working Google would still give you better results. When it was working I could not find what I was looking for anyways. I need to remember to use google to search wizards from now on. | |
First peon to make it to "Knight Warlord"
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Master Peon
spikegif
Warlord
5699 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 9:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by minatoman38
Man. This one had me worried for a minute.
I was way worried. I tried them out this past Saturday. I also have to look up a rule to get a clerification on spikestones and relized that I had it mixed up (backwards), so I needed to make sure I had this one correct. | |
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2004 D&D Miniatures Champion
Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 9:35 PM |
| Grovesie you might want to consider editing the title of this thread. It's just one hop away from being an intimation of unfair play, or worse, cheating. Not that these things can't be discussed here, but given that the tournament report is out, anybody can put two and two together and figure the people they're referring to.
I mean come on... "not pointing fingers at anyone" but specifically referring to the EXACT tournament and warband they were playing. When there are only 10 people there, and 2 of them are running that figure, we can pretty much read between the lines.
Either post it as a rules clarification or question, or post it as an anonymous (i.e., no parties named) discussion of unfair play, cheating, game-changing mistakes, or whatever.
This post, whether intentionally or not, just smacks of someone unhappy with the way a game or their performance went. I really dislike the fact that players are pretty much outright named.
C'mon man, nothing wrong with making a rules mistake, or not doing your homework on your own complaint, but outright calling people out and then saying that the Official Rules Rep personally backed up your claim... that just ain't right. | |
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D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 9:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tananthalas
here is the following issues that are not true ...
1) you cannot use both special abilities in one round, you can either use the stunning attck or natural hit not both.
2)with repsect to the young master if you make your dc stun save you do not take the extra 10 damage, only if you fail do you take the added damage from the commander effect.
3) stun do not effect constructs or undead.
4) you cannot critical hit do not effect undead or elementals.
(Note the bolded word.) Are you saying those things are true, or are you saying they are not true?
quote:
Guy promised to post these claification on wizard board as well.
To whom did I promise this? | |
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Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 9:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kiddoc
Grovesie you might want to consider editing the title of this thread. It's just one hop away from being an intimation of unfair play, or worse, cheating. Not that these things can't be discussed here, but given that the tournament report is out, anybody can put two and two together and figure the people they're referring to.
I mean come on... "not pointing fingers at anyone" but specifically referring to the EXACT tournament and warband they were playing. When there are only 10 people there, and 2 of them are running that figure, we can pretty much read between the lines.
Either post it as a rules clarification or question, or post it as an anonymous (i.e., no parties named) discussion of unfair play, cheating, game-changing mistakes, or whatever.
This post, whether intentionally or not, just smacks of someone unhappy with the way a game or their performance went. I really dislike the fact that players are pretty much outright named.
C'mon man, nothing wrong with making a rules mistake, or not doing your homework on your own complaint, but outright calling people out and then saying that the Official Rules Rep personally backed up your claim... that just ain't right.
Hear, Hear Kiddoc, Hear Hear! The tone of the post sounds like poor sportmanship and being a poor loser, if you felt you had a legitmate gripe there were better ways to handle it. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1357 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 9:49 PM |
| | This thread actually yielded a bit of interesting info for me. I've run a Chraal and encountered Gith Monks in two different tourneys now, and on both occasions, no one (myself included) made the connection that Unavoidable Strike does not do double damage to the Chraal. Not sure if it would have made much difference, but good to know. | | | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 10:50 PM |
| okay.. so we have proven that Tananthalas has no clue what he's talking about. So we can all just ignore him til he goes away, right?
/gives "bouncer" look to everyone
Right? | |
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BudLeiser
Warrior
218 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 10:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tananthalas
Everyone who participated in the DDM open in Florida the Githianki monks have been played worng. We checked with Guy at Wizards and here is the following issues that are not true and making them much more powerfult han they are.
1) you cannot use both special abilities in one round, you can either use the stunning attck or natural hit not both.
2)with repsect to the young master if you make your dc stun save you do not take the extra 10 damage, only if you fail do you take the added damage from the commander effect.
3) stun do not effect constructs or undead.
4) you cannot critical hit do not effect undead or elementals.
this is just for clarification i am not pointing fingers at anyone.
Guy promised to post these claification on wizard board as well.
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 11:00 PM |
| | Hey now, no need to get mean about this. I am sure this was just a misunderstanding on Marc's part. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 11:01 PM |
| and for clarification to any who might be confused:
1) you cannot use both special abilities in one round, you can either use the stunning attck or natural hit not both.
You cannot use the SAME special ability in the same round. So, in the case of the Githzerai Monks, you can use his Unavoidable Strike (which is avoidable btw) and Stunning Attack on the same swing, but you cannot use Stunning attack twice in 1 turn.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=565437
2)with repsect to the young master if you make your dc stun save you do not take the extra 10 damage, only if you fail do you take the added damage from the commander effect.
This statement is incorrect. If you have a creature that has the stunning attack special ability that is under the commander effect of Young Master, when you use a stunning attack, you gain the bonus damage, regardless if the creature is susceptible to stun or if it makes its stun save.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=437130
3) stun do not effect constructs or undead.
This is a true statement, tho it has little relevance to the above points.
4) you cannot critical hit do not effect undead or elementals.
Again, truth. Undead and Elementals are immune to a whole slew of things, like flanking, stun, paralyze, sleep and so on. You can find a complete listing of their immunities in the back of your DDM manual. However, this is only interesting to the discussion above.
Guy's clarifications are crystal clear on this (hell, the rules themselves are clear enough). The Githzerai Monk and Young Master combo (GAS bands) are working as intended... and if you think they are too strong remember that after they blow their Unavoidable Strike, they are only +9 to hit.. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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MackeyJ
Underboss
1414 Posts
| | 01/16/2006 11:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
quote:
Originally posted by Tananthalas
here is the following issues that are not true ...
1) you cannot use both special abilities in one round, you can either use the stunning attck or natural hit not both.
2)with repsect to the young master if you make your dc stun save you do not take the extra 10 damage, only if you fail do you take the added damage from the commander effect.
3) stun do not effect constructs or undead.
4) you cannot critical hit do not effect undead or elementals.
(Note the bolded word.) Are you saying those things are true, or are you saying they are not true?
This has me3 a bit confused too. Something needs to be reworded there. The double negatives alone create confusion for me, and either way (true or not true) 2 out of 4 would end up being contradictory to the initial statement of "making them much more powerful than they are" | |
John
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Krush
Commander
3769 Posts
| | 01/17/2006 1:37 AM |
| At our Decemeber tourney Guy was there and I asked him about this "can you stack the abilities on the Gith Monks?"
His answer was "Yes you can."
Of course you can wait for the official clarifcation but it is true they can stack. | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 01/17/2006 10:06 AM |
| there is no need to wait - his official clarifications are up in the links provided twice in this thread
also note that Im going to assume that Tananthalas' use of a double negative was completely unintentional based on the grammatical content of the rest of his post. Im not a huge fan of puncuation and I end sentances in prepositions so Im not going to throw stones randomly.. but in this case lets assume he meant to say that people were not playing the gith monk correctly. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 01/17/2006 10:34 AM |
| I vote for lock & delete.
The phrasing of the original post is obviously meant to be sensational and lends itself an air of authority by invoking the name of Guy, and discounting the ambiguous "not", is almost completely misleading.
The original post is causing confusion for some people, which is not cleared up until, and if, they read furthur.
This was obviously not posted with the intent to be corrected, but as a statement of facts, which are incorrect and misleading.
Thus I vote for lock & delete. If the OP wants to come back and ask about the points he so obviously lacks knowledge of, then he can do so. | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 01/17/2006 10:48 AM |
| Lock the thread, it is a done topic and we have our anwer. They do stack.
Also the last 2 points are right from the rule book. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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