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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
    
 | | 01/18/2006 6:52 PM |
| So, I've been looking over my recent losses, and found a majority -- not all, but a lot -- of them are due to Helmed Horrors. I play CG as my main faction, so my theory-work here is limited to just CG, though LG theory might be useful too since LG is my secondary team.
Basically, I'm wondering, how do you deal with multiple HHs? My first thought was a mage bombardment line; a Renegade Warlock and two Wand Experts with as many blockers as I could fit in.
This did not work; I didn't have enough blockers to shield the mage line from three or four fliers. Going after their commander CURRENTLY works to reduce them to Speed 2, but that's likely going away in a few months and is thus unacceptable as a solution.
My current theory is Aramil plus some Celestial Pegasi/Rikka. This might work a little better, but the Helmed Horrors are as likely as not to just take the AoOs from these two creatures and go on to maul my commander, Ryld. The fact that they can basically 'kamikaze' any soft target in the game and AoOs be damned is a little hard to deal with in some cases.
The only other theory I've had so far would be Frenzied Berserkers or a non-epic Aspect of Kord, but that's throwing a larger cost unit at a lower-cost unit; a trade that theoretically favors them.
Those are my two current theories: Aramil + Pegasi and Rikka, or an FB and Kord. Anyone else have anything to offer for CG handling these Helmed Horrors?
I refuse to do something dumb like ask my opponent to not run HHs, or try to get them banned as being "cheap"; I don't have enough data to know for sure that HHs are really overpowered even though I do think they're frickin' sweet units for 45 points, so I'm hoping to do a little workshop on this to figure out what CG can do about them.
Any thoughts? | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 01/18/2006 7:00 PM |
| They only hit the ghaele eladrin for 5 per swing (DR plus she has fire resistance.)
With her heal coming into play, you would have to hit her 23 times with helmed horrors to kill her (barring crits.)
Meanwhile, she kills them in 5 hits, and her chance of hitting is much better. | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 01/18/2006 7:01 PM |
| | I think you're on the right track with the Celestial Pegasi and Rikka. Aramil isn't likely to last long enough to contribute against multiple Helmed Horrors I don't think, but you might as well try him. I'd consider going with Ryld as commander as well. Though the Greenfang Druid may also be worth considering. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 01/18/2006 7:08 PM |
| To beat any band you basically need to do one of two things ...
Over damage (dish out more than they do)
Buff defenses and take less (DR, Fire Resistance)
You want to win that battle. Since you know you'll be facing Helmed Horrors, this makes it abit easier. And since you're starting w/ CG you know your options are limited in the matchup ... but you can go the over-damage rout.
They have a 2:1 HP/Cost ratio (basically) ... and since you will be likely making morale saves, you'll want to get better than that.
Moon Elf
Frenzied Berserker
Rikka
Goliath(s)
Celestial Pegasi
You should be able to fit in four hitters plus the Moon Elf giving you effectively five hitters and then some tech. I'm not certain the FB is your best bet here; I'd rather use Rikka for sure and maybe the Goliaths since you can cram more into the mix. | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 01/18/2006 7:16 PM |
| EDIT: Let me add another caveat, as most warband builders I face are more imaginative than running as many HHs as possible.
Yeah...the FBs didn't seem like an optimal solution to me; fielding 52 pointers to deal with 45 pointers is a theoretical 'math loss' for me in a game where it's first to 200 points. If I've got Ryld nearby the FBs get a theoretical hitrate of roughly 70% on the first swing, then about 45-55% on the second. Nice, but I'm still thinking this is a 'math loss' for me. Plus I only own one FB, and only one Goliath Barbarian; I plan to get more later but was more interested in filling out the rest of my 'toolkit' first, and money's a little tight.
Fire Resistance isn't a likely option. I've got Aasimar Favored Souls who have it, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out the AFS loses to a HH...even two AFS will lose to 1 HH, really. I'd bet even 4 AFS couldn't take just one HH. If I put in an Elf Pyro to grant the necessary resistance, I lose too many points on the 'hitter' front. Aramil's there to get the DR5 on the Pegasi and Rikka to be more useful.
Ghaele is right out; she might beat the HHs, but will lose against the rest of the bands in any theoretical tournament. GAS will mulch her, CE Quad will mulch her, it's just not worth it.
EDIT: Also, sometimes I'm not facing just "Fit as many HHs as you can" bands. They're just part of an incredibly deep problem. One common build I keep facing is:
1x Gauth, 1x Dark Naga, 2x HH, 1x Duegar Champ, filler (usually Kobold Miners). If I fight a holding action against the HHs, the Gauth will basically fire-support me into oblivion with his Fire Ray and Paralysis Gaze. Sending Rikka against the Gauth via Waylay does not help; he usually just Paralyzes Rikka and goes on his way. | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
11462 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 01/18/2006 8:00 PM |
| | CG is also my faction of choice, and right now it is probably the weakest of the four. Against the LE warband you have just posted, a CG warband would have a tough time. We will have to hope for some help in War Drums. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 01/18/2006 8:02 PM |
| The Dark Flames Horror warband is probably one of the toughest warband concepts out there at the moment. Gith Monk's are probably the next though the two of them have a rough battle against one another. CG is currently not the toughest faction even with FBs, Rikka and AoK. The latter probably being the most viable HH attacker. Still not the best point for point though. I hate to say it but CG has too much uphill battling to do against said warband.
R~ | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 01/18/2006 8:16 PM |
| I might try a Ghaele with a Tri-Kreen Barbarian. It's a bit oddball, but I tried a test-run, and the power of the Ghaele's commander effect combined with the Tri-kreen's multiple attacks is pretty impressive. The Barbarian is fast enough that it should be able to get the drop on a HH, and does more damage (true, he is more expensive though.) The Ghaele's gaze attack is worthless against the horrors, but she still has that sweet ranged attack at an effective +12/+12 (factoring in magic weapon)
Although the activations seem low to begin with, you get a lot of second activations out of the barbarian-each of which has the potential for another 45 damage. As pointed out above, the ghaele is pretty immune to the HHs, and can really mess with them in melee as well as ranged. The heal can be very useful as well- 50HP for either the Ghaele or Tri-Kreen is pretty nice, it'll take three HH hits to undo that heal on the tri-kreen, and something like 10 for the ghaele. Commander assissination is also pretty easy with this band due to all the speed, so although not great, it might work. | |
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originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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Toxic_Rat
Sergeant
745 Posts
Lehi, Utah, USA
| | 01/18/2006 11:07 PM |
| I think the Ghaele idea has merit, but the problem is that HH are usually joined by something else. I think that activations will be a problem. Ghaele is good, but I think her place is in Epic.
Other than the low speed, why not use Clay Golems? Consider this:
[mini="GoL.21">Warchanter[/mini]
[mini="Ar.25">Clay Golem[/mini]
[mini="Ar.25">Clay Golem[/mini]
[mini="Ud.24">Wizard Tactician[/mini]
[mini="Ud.24">Wizard Tactician[/mini]
[mini="Af.30">Xeph Warrior[/mini]
The improved countersong helps out with the Gith monks not getting bonus from the YM, and the golems are immune to stuns. They are also a fearless 90 HP, like the FB, but without the burnout. The higher AC's that we're up against (22 for the HH, 25 for Gith monks) is better handled by the golems.
The wizard tactians (with Perfect Targeting) make it possible to put the damage where you need it. Bigby's is a bonus. Might not need 2, but 30 points of E. Magic Missile anywhere is nice.
Speed is a problem. Lack of GMA is another, but maybe that's ok? What do you guys think?
We shall overcome and place CG in its rightful place, which is to say, first place. [)] | |
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concjo
Skirmisher
36 Posts
| | 01/19/2006 9:47 AM |
| | I think you have a super squishy commander tied to all of your point (clay golems) and if you fight anyone with a flyer, it's an autoloss. | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 01/19/2006 10:13 AM |
| Clay Golems don't have "Requires Commander"
They are just confused if they activate out of command.
Not much more useful, but at least ou don't give up 112pts when your commander dies | |
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XenoZephyr
Underboss
1083 Posts
| | 01/19/2006 10:24 AM |
| I play LE almost to exclusion and since Underdark came out I think I've played with at least 2 Helmed Horrors in every warband to exclusion as well. [:)]
I have to say, with a one on one matchup, I hate the Celestial Pegasus. Unless you have a Dark Moon Monk or a Kobold Sorcerer in your warband then the Celestial Pegasus can really tie up a HH for a long time. It may not defeat the HH but it's an excellent blocker. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 01/19/2006 10:41 AM |
| | I agree that Celestial Pegasussusses, particularly when combined with Aramil is the way to go. This combo not only nerfs the HH's but also the Chraals and Dark Nagas that seem to go with them. Enfeebled HH's only do 5 per swing, and Enfeebled Chraals do a whopping 0! | |
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Aramus
Warrior
181 Posts
| | 01/19/2006 10:59 AM |
| | Havent faced any HHs yet so not sure but the pegasi idea has merit | |
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GoblinSmiter619
Sneak
65 Posts
| | 01/19/2006 8:23 PM |
| Theory for beating HH?
Sure it's called Centaur Hero! | |
Champion of the Kobold Samurai | |
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Mortusbard
Sergeant
427 Posts
North Carolina
| | 01/19/2006 8:41 PM |
| | what about HEBI and Nentyar Hunter couple of hitter's and a screen | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 01/19/2006 9:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by concjo
I think you have a super squishy commander tied to all of your point (clay golems) and if you fight anyone with a flyer, it's an autoloss.
That's sorta what I think about that one too, even though the golem's don't die with the commander, they're ability to be an effective offense does, plus if I'm playing HHs, I'll just avoid the golems (being way faster) then kill squishies and go for tile points.
A whole lot of renegade warlocks might work, since they can put some serious ranged hurt on the HHs, wand experts arn't a bad idea either. Twin Aspect of Kord might work, since they can kick the stuffing out of stuff pretty fast, and can take down the inevitable Naga commander pretty easy- even if one misses do to conceal, as long as the other hits it's moral and a possible attack of opportunity from the other one.
While I'm shooting off bad ideas, why not do something like a lot of half-ogre barbarians? Cheap, damaging and they block well, so it could work. There's some difficulty placing that many large bases, but they're cheaper then the horrors, and do almost as much damage.
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Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 01/19/2006 10:59 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by GoblinSmiter619
Theory for beating HH?
Sure it's called Centaur Hero!
Your best bet is really to out-damage the HHs ... you need either moderate damage with resistances (fire/DR) or more pure damage. They have 95 fearless/construct hit points ... and they basically own the Clay Golem.
Dire Bears aren't a horrible choice, yet only if you can succeed on your morale saves. Since you'll be out on the HP end you need fearless or a much better HP/cost curve with comparable damage. | |
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Toxic_Rat
Sergeant
745 Posts
Lehi, Utah, USA
| | 01/20/2006 9:00 AM |
| The more I think about it, the more I'm worried that I have to agree with a Thenameless...hope for help in Wardrums. Unfortunately, the Utah Open is before that, and I would bet that there will be at least one HH band there.
So, maybe this would work:
2x Aspect of Kord
Crow Shaman
Cleric of Garl Glittergold
3x Xeph Warrior
Elf Warrior
I like Garl here because of the commander effect. With only 1 attack each, the AoK will need help to reduce the damage from the opposition. I might substitute out the Shaman and Xeph for a Pyromancer. The energy immunities would really help out vs. a Gauth and the fire damage from the HH. Of course commander assassination is a problem here. But I don't think we can get away from that, not yet at least. As Chris has said, either you either give out more or take less. This band kind of does both (between the AoK and shaman) and the CFX from Garl. As a result, it probably doesn't do either well enough.
But an idea nonetheless. The Open is getting closer, and I'm wondering if I should be running some other faction. [:(] | |
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 01/20/2006 11:19 AM |
| Have you considered trying to fit a Githyanki Renegade into your band? The blur increases the chances of the HH missing him if they get into melee. Plus the Dimension Door gives him a chance to get the drop on the commander. Even when move 2 is eliminated from the game, removing the commander effects and initiative from the HH band, can help you control the flow of combat.
If you were to go with LG instead a Dwarf artificier the LSoF would make is 10% less likely of the HH hitting your tanks, and the HH would have to watch out for Rust Construct, plus this band could also field Amaril to weaken any extra HH's your enemy fields.
Just some ideas. | |
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azuretide
Sergeant
407 Posts
| | 01/20/2006 11:32 AM |
| | The best way to deal with the horrors is to dish out as much damage to them as fast as you can. Things with DR and fire immunity will also take them down pretty easily. | |
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 01/20/2006 1:01 PM |
| | Longstrider Rangers might a good, cheap alternative for a melee beater. With high hp to cost ratio, excellent speed and decent attack/damage, and definitely cheaper then the HH. A couple of these with the the right pieces could be a good way to be deal with HH's. | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 01/20/2006 1:28 PM |
| Longstrider Rangers actually cost more than Rikka or a Pegasus. 2 or 3 points more, same damage output (slightly more accurate), no DR. Maybe if it had Construct Foe, but as it is I'd think the Pegasi are better choices for this match.
Of course, I'm also biased; my name should be obvious enough proof of this. But I think the math involved is sound; the HHs can't damage Rikka or a Pegasus as readily as they can damage a Longstrider. | |
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 01/20/2006 1:35 PM |
| | Monsoon, the Helmed Horror has blindsight, making it immune to blur. | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 01/20/2006 1:41 PM |
| Inspiring Marshall x2
Frenzied Berserker x2
Graycloak Ranger x2
Wolf minion x2
Elf Warrior x2
Ignore the Helmed Horrors initially. Double GMA to assassinate the commander and any Gauths or Nagas with the two FBs. Use the Graycloaks to put 5 damage on the HH so that it only takes 3 FB hits to kill them. Use the archers and wolves to get and maintain a VP area edge. This CG band should outscore all LE bands in tile points as the archers pick off or scare away miners and tile grabbers. The wolves high speed can score from round one. Keep at least one FB alive and you can win on points.
Or try triple Frenzied Berserkers and an Inspiring Marshall and go toe to toe with the HH. Three FBs can beat down four HH as they do more damage. Try to get a flank so their attack bonuses are higher. Try to get multiple FBs on one HH at a time to kill it faster. Use the GMA to get a full round of attacks before the HH has attacked at all. Hopefully you can win the initiative the following round again to get off four more unanswered attacks. | |
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Toxic_Rat
Sergeant
745 Posts
Lehi, Utah, USA
| | 01/20/2006 2:50 PM |
| Chad, that band looks good. However, if the LE player is running with a Mongrelfolk then it may be a bit difficult to get that early VP edge. I agree with your strategy to get behind the lines and kill off the commanders or gauths. I would go for the gauths first, since the paralyze and fire damage are particularly bad for the FB. The upshot is that probably only 1 gauth is in the band. Get lucky and you can kill both in the first round.
It would not surprise me for the HH to be running with Duergar Champs, so that's an additional worry. But the 95 fearless HP's are the primary threat.
Re: including a Gith Renegade into the mix...I don't see this being effective due to the lower melee bonuses. I think we need to be aiming at having at least 50% chance to hit against AC 22. Remember that if you play in a tourny, someone is likely running Gith Monks. But that's a problem for another thread. [)] | |
Any time you try to make something idiot-proof, someone always goes out and invents a better idiot.
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 01/20/2006 2:59 PM |
| Once maps become the standard Mongrelfolk will be worthless. I still think Aspect of Kord and Rikka have a shot at taking out the HHs but probably not against more than two very easily. Costs for CG are just too high for point for point balance against them.
R~ | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 01/20/2006 3:04 PM |
| | Mongrelfolk? They are just as weak as the miner. One hit from an archer and its gone by the end of round one and no tile points are scored for LE. Of course it depends on the map and getting LOS to the Mongrelfolk. Remember, I am speaking entirely from the 8 figures on maps standpoint. I would not use my band on tiles or with 12 figs. | |
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Toxic_Rat
Sergeant
745 Posts
Lehi, Utah, USA
| | 01/20/2006 3:28 PM |
| You guys are right of course. Mongrelfolk won't do a lot on maps. However, I'm looking at this problem under the current 12 figures/tiles lens. We have one last big tournament schedule before WarDrums brings the changes. I'm trying to beat HH's now (well, in a few weeks [)]) and I'm none too comfortable with a method on how to do it.
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Any time you try to make something idiot-proof, someone always goes out and invents a better idiot.
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 01/20/2006 3:58 PM |
| Inspired Pyro can defeat 3 HHs.. and will cause some stress to just about everythign else. The Pyro doesnt just have that lovely fireball.. it also has that lovely resist elements thing.. making the fire damage a thing of the past.
BTW - Mordekainen's sword will also do a number on a HH. | |
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scifirules
Sergeant
354 Posts
| | 01/20/2006 4:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
Inspired Pyro can defeat 3 HHs.. and will cause some stress to just about everythign else. The Pyro doesnt just have that lovely fireball.. it also has that lovely resist elements thing.. making the fire damage a thing of the past.
BTW - Mordekainen's sword will also do a number on a HH.
A Pyromancer wouldn't work very well against Helmed Horrors, since the HHs are immune to fireball.
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General_Boy
Sneak
59 Posts
| | 01/20/2006 4:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by scifirules
quote:
Originally posted by Ack
Inspired Pyro can defeat 3 HHs.. and will cause some stress to just about everythign else. The Pyro doesnt just have that lovely fireball.. it also has that lovely resist elements thing.. making the fire damage a thing of the past.
BTW - Mordekainen's sword will also do a number on a HH.
A Pyromancer wouldn't work very well against Helmed Horrors, since the HHs are immune to fireball.
I believe that the pyromancer was suggested not because of the fireball to kill the Horrors but for the energy immunity and resist spells, thereby limiting the Horrors damage to 10 non magic damage. Also, just because the Horrors are immune to the fireball doesn't mean that it isn't effective against the other members of the warband.
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scifirules
Sergeant
354 Posts
| | 01/20/2006 5:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by General_Boy
quote:
Originally posted by scifirules
quote:
Originally posted by Ack
Inspired Pyro can defeat 3 HHs.. and will cause some stress to just about everythign else. The Pyro doesnt just have that lovely fireball.. it also has that lovely resist elements thing.. making the fire damage a thing of the past.
BTW - Mordekainen's sword will also do a number on a HH.
A Pyromancer wouldn't work very well against Helmed Horrors, since the HHs are immune to fireball.
I believe that the pyromancer was suggested not because of the fireball to kill the Horrors but for the energy immunity and resist spells, thereby limiting the Horrors damage to 10 non magic damage. Also, just because the Horrors are immune to the fireball doesn't mean that it isn't effective against the other members of the warband.
Well, in that case, I guess he would work pretty well. I thought that he meant using fireball against the Horrors. | |
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Toxic_Rat
Sergeant
745 Posts
Lehi, Utah, USA
| | 01/20/2006 9:25 PM |
| This is what you mean by Inspired Pyro, right?
2x Frenzied Berserker
Inspiring Marshall
Elf Pyromancer
Satyr
4x Xeph Warrior
2x Elf Warrior
(Of course, the fodder can be whatever) | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 01/20/2006 10:27 PM |
| Yes - that is what I meant by Inspired Pyro.
And yes - I was recommending the Pyromancer for the energy resist and to put the hurt on everything around the HHs. Plus, having something like the HH in your band, people sometimes forget that it would make a wonderful lightning rod, fireball magnet, etc.
Keep this discussion going.. I am certain there will be more HHs than you can shake a stick at at the New England Open in a few weeks.. and they match up pretty poorly against themselves... | |
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Toxic_Rat
Sergeant
745 Posts
Lehi, Utah, USA
| | 01/21/2006 11:11 AM |
| | Does the Crow Shaman have a place here? If we're going for the 'over-damage' option, seems like those Snakes Swiftness spells are needed. Plus they have the bonus of not sapping 5 HP from the FB. | |
Any time you try to make something idiot-proof, someone always goes out and invents a better idiot.
Champion of Siege Equipment | |
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nedleeds
Warrior
240 Posts
| | 01/21/2006 3:21 PM |
| The HH is the kind of figure you'd normally just avoid. But it being medium and a flyer means it's tough to keep it ignored for long. The only thing I've ever killed one with is a Dire Bear. The HH went after my GF and didn't live to tell about it.
Greenfang Druid can actually hit the HH's AC, the Dire Bear certainly can and if your Bear is Energy Resisted from Mr. Pyro, and has Regen 5 there's no way the HH takes him out. The flip side is your cool commander effect is nerfed by the construct type.
Maybe a GFD build is a good counter with a core of
GFD
Dire Bear
Celestial Pegasus
Elf Pyromancer
Satyr (I find with Bear/GFD there is a round where you *must* win initiative)
That leaves 27 for another hitter/tech then 2 Xephs or Archers.
Problem is 27 is only enough for a lowly Unicorn or Axe Sister. Any less then that and you aren't hitting 8 activations. Maybe the much maligned Spirit Folk Fighter, a Timber Wolf and a Xeph ?
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Champion of Zarak - Evil Half-Orc Assassin | |
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 01/21/2006 4:25 PM |
| | If you've got a beastmaster, the spirit folk fighter doesn't look like a really bad piece to me. Granted, it's no gold dwarf soldier (+2 points, -4 save, +3 speed, -4 AC, +1 atk, no cleave, and no CoDA in CG without using Elminster), but it's not that bad. If you have him, Krusk might not be a bad piece either. He's cheaper and faster than the spirit folk fighter though he has slightly less hit points and less AC. | |
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Monsoon28
Underboss
2313 Posts
Toronto
| | 01/21/2006 5:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Monsoon, the Helmed Horror has blindsight, making it immune to blur.
Right, my bad, forgot they had that ability as well.
Well I'm PO'd that the two extras I ordered from Ebay never did arrive. [:(] | |
"I was sittin' here eatin' my muffin, drinkin' my coffee, replayin' the incident in my head, when I had what alcoholics refer to as a moment of clarity." - Jules Winnfield
Sales/Trades Bad (1): Ironfist Boulderbender
Trades/Sales completed (8.): Danthl, Dafrca, Garyaxe, qillan_dvra, realmaster, Vandal_Savage, cavedweller, unearthed arcana.
Champion of Gem Dragons, VINDICATED Squire of Duergar Commander, Knight of the Astral Stalker.
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Narcissus
Warrior
197 Posts
| | 01/21/2006 7:14 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Or try triple Frenzied Berserkers and an Inspiring Marshall and go toe to toe with the HH. Three FBs can beat down four HH as they do more damage. Try to get a flank so their attack bonuses are higher. Try to get multiple FBs on one HH at a time to kill it faster. Use the GMA to get a full round of attacks before the HH has attacked at all. Hopefully you can win the initiative the following round again to get off four more unanswered attacks.
Three FBs, statistically speaking get outdamaged by 3 HHs, let alone 4. Factoring in ACs and hit bonuses, FBs lose to HHs. | |
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