Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
    
 | | 02/02/2006 12:51 PM |
| From Inquest:
Cost 27, commander 3, level 5, speed 6, AC 17, HP 40, melee attack +9/+9 (5), Commander effect: whenever you win initiative followers gain melee attack +2 this round, whenever you lose followers gain melee damage +5 this round; Abilities: conceal 6, mobility, seize the initiative (on its turn this creature get melee damage +5 whenever it is the first creature to activate in a round).
Of the four previewed, this one looks the most promising. What does everyone else think of its overall skirmish viability? As it stands, I think it has a definite potential to show up in competitive warbands. It has a generalized melee attack +2 and melee damage +5 as commander effects, the first of which has yet to be seen in a generalized format and the second of which hasn't been seen in a generalized format without other stipulations to its use.
It is about as durable as most commanders are in its particular point range, and its commander rating isn't particularly horrible for CE. Its big downsides are that you can never garauntee the commander effect is going to work and that it might not be worth taking over the tiefling commander.
I definitely consider it a piece to watch. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 1:00 PM |
| | Do you mean the attack bonus hasn't been seen in a generalized format for CE? Because Half-orc Fighter, Urthok, Cleric of Kord and Paladin of Torm all give a generalized +2 to attack. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 1:02 PM |
| Yes, I meant for Chaotic Evil.
The only Chaotic Evil attack bonus adder (that I can think of...) is the orc sergeant and that can't be added to the majority of CE pieces. | |
I am not gone. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 1:03 PM |
| Not bad but I don't see seize the initiative being very useful for it. Conceal and mobility works nicely. Weird CFX, but it makes losing intiative not that bad. +5 damage is usually far more useful than +2 attack. It'll definately see some use but it's not going to replace the original Tiefling with it's CR:3.
R~ | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 1:05 PM |
| I agree. Seize the initiative isn't particularly useful, but I don't think it matters that much beyond general flavor of the miniature.
I guess the question is whether or not the commander effect and the 1 less commander rating are worth an additional 6 points. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 1:08 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Yes, I meant for Chaotic Evil.
The only Chaotic Evil attack bonus adder (that I can think of...) is the orc sergeant and that can't be added to the majority of CE pieces.
There's the Hezrou, but he's also conditional.
The new Tiefling is more-or-less an appropriate costed version of the original, imo. He's six points more expensive, but didn't get much for it. The HP are really about it, though mobility is kind of nice. It is a solid commander effect, though, and either way it's good for CE. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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lantern314
Sergeant
684 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 1:08 PM |
| I've seen enough threads championing the 65 hp mark that I'm concerned about the 40hp, even with conceal. Conceal doesn't help him dodge cones.
Those low hit points also make it less desirable for him to be in melee combat where the seize the initiative needs to be. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 1:13 PM |
| | The 65 hit point mark is mostly trumpted for hitters. 40 hit point matters a lot less for back of the line commanders. People are willing to run single-commander warbands with Snig (25 hp), the Tiefling Captain (30 hp), and the Inspiring Marshal (35 hp). They are going to be willing to run bands with the relatively tough Tiefling Blademaster. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 1:18 PM |
| The Tiefling Blademaster certainly seems worthwhile. I see some synergy with mid-cost figures, particularly the Grimlock Barbarian, who could desperately use either of his effects. The more attacks you can get in the warband, the more vauable he's going to be.
Hey, maybe I'll give the Ettin another look.
Okay, that didn't take long. [)] | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 1:21 PM |
| | He might also be reasonably useful with the Hill Giant Barbarian who could both use the attack bonus and, interestingly enough, gaint a bit from the +5 damage, as that puts him at the point to where he can force morale saves on large 80 hit point pieces with one hit and where he can do 45 damage to a medium creature which is only two red samurai cones or one 20 damage attack (from one of CE's many 20 damage hitters) away from death on any 65 hit point piece. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Kalrin
Sneak
90 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 1:32 PM |
| I like it. In fact, I like it more then I like the Teifling Captain.
I like this because it combines my two favorite commander effects in the same piece, at a reasonable cost with a nice commander rating. It makes me suddenly like CE alot more.
Honestly, I'd have to say upon seeing this, the Tieifling Blademaster is now one of my favorite commanders, right around the Cleric of Kord, the Half-Orc Fighter, the Human Blackguard and the CoDA. | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 1:36 PM |
| I see definite synergy with any Disruptive creature!
I think that maybe certain kinds of bands could really use the damage bonus, (6 Xendriks, etc) but even that's never a sure thing, and otherwise he doesn't really look as good as the original Tiefling. Far from a bad piece, but not exactly top tier at first glance, in my opinion.
- Dagni | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 1:45 PM |
| | I think we'll see it for no other reason than it IS the replacement for the old Tiefling Captain. If (like myself) you started skirmishing in the Aberations era the old Tiefling is probobly not in your bag. I like the piece and think it's one of the better commanders for CE to be produced recently. Cheap, useful CFX, reasonable com. rating, durable for the price, it's the new (old) Tiefling! It looks good too, which is a big up on the old one. I'd agree, one to watch. | |
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 02/02/2006 2:31 PM |
| I think it is a poor replacement for the Tiefling Captain and should not be compared to it. The Tiefling Captain will still be the commander of choice because he is cheaper and has a higher commander rating.
Now, on his own, the blademaster should work nicely with the Grimlock Barb and the Hill Giant Barb. Even the Abyssal Maw can do 20 damage now. That's a lot for a 5 point piece.
He gives a nice boost to these:
Abyssal Maw
Grimlock Barbarian
Orc Savage
Timber Wolf
Wolf
Hyena
Orc Brute
Barbarian Mercenary
Cursed Spirit
Mountain Orc
Carrion Tribe Barbarian
Orc Raider
Choker
Harpy
Forest Troll
Xen'Drik Champion
Large Red Dragon
Mounted Drow Patrol
Red Samurai
Dire Bear
Chuul
Draegloth
Clay Golem
Gray Render
Large Deep Dragon
Aspect of Lolth
Aspect of Demogorgon
Huge Red Dragon
That's a lot of pieces that could really benefit from +5 Damage. With cmdr 3 you'll lose more inits than you will win.
The LRD, Clay Golem, Maw, Xen'Drick and Grimlock get a really nice boost. | |
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My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 02/02/2006 3:19 PM |
| | The unreliability of the commander effect combined with the higher cost and lower commander rating make me think he won't be replacing the tiefling captain anytime soon. I can certainly see situations where I'd use him, but overall, I think the original tiefling is better. I really hate it when Orc champs run. It may only be a 5% difference, but the original tiefling's commander effect isn't shabby either. | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
1997 Posts
Portland OR
| | 02/02/2006 3:35 PM |
| | I think he's more expensive because i would bet he is CN not CE...dual commander effects tend to go to the truely chaotic and he has green cloak on...i also expect to see him with the hill giant barb as the two combine for the exact same moral save as the old tie and orc champ...and that hill giant is super scary with either + to hit or dmg...mobility and conceal and extra hp means you can get away without death more easily and if you don't want to go that route sieze the initative will help him fight back against weak tie downs or assassins...i'm just very sad he doesn't do 10/5 dmg...again pointing towards CN I suppose after i think about it a bit... | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
926 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 3:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Aesnath
The unreliability of the commander effect combined with the higher cost and lower commander rating make me think he won't be replacing the tiefling captain anytime soon. I can certainly see situations where I'd use him, but overall, I think the original tiefling is better. I really hate it when Orc champs run. It may only be a 5% difference, but the original tiefling's commander effect isn't shabby either.
How can you call the Tiefling Blademaster's commander effect unreliable in comparison to that of the Tiefling Captain - you know the CE that actually happens once or twice during an entire tournament[:0]. Also, even when the TC commander effect would happen, the current prevalence of constructs and elementals means that the effect is useless some percentage of the time.
In my opinion, the TB commander effect is much better than that of the TC. Since the TB is also more robust, I think the cost is reasonable.
However... I'm not going to say that the TB is better/more efficient thhn a piece which has been on top of the heap for over two years. The extra cost of the TB already rules him out of some popular warbands. Death Slaad x3, for example really needs the Cursed Spirit for it's targeting capability, so the TC would not work there. However, most CE Quad bands can be tweaked to use the TB (usually bu turning a Cursed Spirit into lesser fodder), and get more sue out of the commander effect. I will go out on a limb and say that the TB is a contender for use in competitive bands. But he is not strictly better than the Tiefling Captain.
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Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 3:44 PM |
| He's not great for Death Slaad bands anyway, as most things won't benefit from the Cfx.
DS bands need the initiative and morale boost of the Tiefling, nothing else really. So the cheapest commander they can get that boosts the initiatives and morale saves is the one for them.
I can see him being used in a more beater oriented, less comannder packing band though. | |
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Tactician
Sergeant
888 Posts
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Gloom_
Sergeant
583 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 3:57 PM |
| | Theres also decentish attack bonuses too, useful for dealing with fodder, or maybe with sieze the initative sneaking the last 10 damage onto something. | |
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Zyla
Underboss
1191 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 4:29 PM |
| | The problem comes with newer players and those who came with the abbherations era, its almost impossible to find a Tiefling captain now, this would be a good replacement for those who cant get one. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 4:41 PM |
| | Replace? They're both cheap, why not use 'em both? | | | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 4:54 PM |
| Their commander effects work reasonably well together, but are not so overwhelmingly synergistic that it is worth giving up a hitter to get them.
So yeah, I don't think using both is a good idea. :P
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I am not gone. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 4:56 PM |
| | Perhaps, but in a demon-themed band, it's something to consider. | | | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/02/2006 5:08 PM |
| Compare him to a Bugbear Champion of Erythuul:
Cost: 7 cheaper (27 vs 34)
HPs, speed and level: Same
Commander effects: Similar, although the TB is a bit more effective.
Attack: slightly worse, although better when cleaning up fodder.
AC: Worse, though better vs AoOs.
Conceal 6 is useful, but probably not as useful as the magic weapons and lesser freightens of the BCoE.
Although there are definite differences, I'd say he is a closer piece to the BCoE than the TC. The BCoE is fine for sealed, but in constructed, it is far too fragile to make much of a difference. Accordingly, I'd have to say that this guy will also fail top make the grade, and will likely be relgated to the realm of unused figures in constructed. | |
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Aesnath
Underboss
1358 Posts
Augusta, GA
| | 02/02/2006 5:15 PM |
| | Actually, with regard to the commander effect, I didn't mean iffy vs. the tiefling captain, but rather iffy in general. The tiefling captain's commander effect is very chancy, moreso than the tiefling blademasters, in my opinion. However, I view the commander effect of the captain as more of a bonus to rest of the mini. That commander 4 for 21 points is hard to beat. If the blademaster were a commander 4, it would be a different issue. And when the captain's effect does go off, it can wildly swing games to your favor. That counts for something for me. | |
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Graduate school is swollowing my soul!!!!
Champion of the Raumathari Battlemage!
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 5:55 PM |
| He is solid and will see play.
Possibly with twin tieflings (ie.,, one of each) as commanders.
(but also possibly with other commanders where there is no overlap. Ryld comes to mind. (with room for 2 more orc champs and 40 points of whatever!) | |
Let it be. | |
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Kissmykiester
Sergeant
525 Posts
| | 02/02/2006 11:34 PM |
| This creature is Tier one IMO. I'm saying it without any real playtesting but on paper at least, I see lots of possibilities which I've said in various other posts elsewhere. I'm so darn excited about this piece...can you tell?
It's Cmd. effect works well whether or not you win, or lose, inits. You lose, you get + 5 to damage - always a good thing. You win you get +2 to hit - always a good thing vrs the flood of creatures out there with between 20 to 25 ACs. - Gith Monk, Charrl, Duegar Champ, Helm Horrors etc. Just think... the Orc Champ now hits at +15/+10.
For 27 points, it costed very well. With Spd 2 removed I dunno how important a role Commanders will play, but that's besides the point. The point is what you get for those 27 points. You get a lot. Commander 3 is nothing to sneeze at. And like Jesse mentioned some players are comfortable with running just one Commander - that and the termination of Spd 2 makes it more viable.
It's other stats are acceptable and even exceed it point cost. Mobility...I mean come on! That means your opponent is gonna have to invest in a medium to heavy hitter just to take out your blademaster at least.
The Blademaster is a strong contender for Tier one.
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
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DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 12:44 AM |
| I like it. Seems solid.
Time will tell if it reaches tier one but I see potential. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Zyla
Underboss
1191 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 12:49 AM |
| | There was a hint by shoe that 1 of the 3 figures in the preview is "One follows the path of its brethren". Also since its supposed to be a replacement for the long out of print tiefling captain (which is almost impossible to find now), its going to be CE. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 12:51 AM |
| Us get super secret info? More like they'd make us guess and tease us a little to get their jollies.
R~ | |
Champion of the Titan
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 3:41 AM |
| I'm pretty happy about this new piece. Like people all ready stated, getting the original Thiefling is hard and this is a decent "replacement".
It's a decent commander that should fit most warband's without having to worry about commander synergy. You either get +2 to attack, or +5 to damage. Both are very useful for any CE warband.
And at least the 40 HP keeps him safe from Wizard Tacticians. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2720 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 4:09 AM |
| I was guess that we'd get a monstrous commander, maybe a demon/devil, or half-fiend - I think this is close enough.
Looks nice to me when looking at stats, and the mini looks superior compared to the old Tiefling.
The commander effect may cause confusion sometimes, but I think it makes this commander more interesting to play.
This one might actually do quite well with the old Tiefling, especially in 200pt games. You have commander 4 (backup is 3) and have two good commander effects for 48 points.
Btw, isn't the new tiefling getting energy resistancies? Strange. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 02/03/2006 7:11 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
The 65 hit point mark is mostly trumpted for hitters. 40 hit point matters a lot less for back of the line commanders. People are willing to run single-commander warbands with Snig (25 hp), the Tiefling Captain (30 hp), and the Inspiring Marshal (35 hp). They are going to be willing to run bands with the relatively tough Tiefling Blademaster.
65hp is the point required to survive against heavy hitters.
And that's now. With wardrums we get the Barbarian hill giant which can expect to hit for 40 damage. I predict some of the 65hp figures are going to drop out of the metagame when BHG becomes tournament legal...
Inspiring Marshal & Snig command from a long way back (LoS) where they are (almost) safe. The Tiefling blademaster (with lower command rating) can only be worth 6 points more than the Tiefling Captain if it's close enough tp use it's CE. Which makes it an easy target for commander assination, unless the new command rules in Wardrums make commander assination a waste of effort (which they might I guess). I would only play this thing, in sealed deck, or as a 2nd commander. And I doubt it's worth using even then.
I'd say the Archonix Guard was the most playable of the Inquest previews. High AC & 35HP for only 9 pts. It's smite-resistance makes it a good support unit for aggressive mages. Enemy figures without spell resistance, get hit by the mage, those with spell resistance take 20 damage from the guards. It's probably LG so the choice of aggresive mages will be a bit limited. I would certainly play the Guard in an 8 figure warband. And it might even be worth it's cost with a 12 figure limit. | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
268 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 2:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
65hp is the point required to survive against heavy hitters.
And that's now. With wardrums we get the Barbarian hill giant which can expect to hit for 40 damage. I predict some of the 65hp figures are going to drop out of the metagame when BHG becomes tournament legal...
I do not think that the Hill Giant Barbarian (HGB) will impact the viability of 65 or 70 HP creatures very much. A HGB does 30-40 damage to those 65-70 HP creautres (DR, medium-small, etc.) The HGB still takes two hits to kill a 65 HP creature, that at least usually has a higher AC than the 75-90 HP creatures, which generally only take two hits to kill too.
I actually think that in the era of people playing HGB a lot, the 65 HP creatures are more viable, due to their higher relative AC than 75-90 HP creatures. I already see the development of strategies of using the HGB as an adjunct to two other HH to deliver the right amount of damage to the target. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 2:27 PM |
| | Does the advent of higher damage minis actually dilute the value of the current break points? By that I mean, do lower hp creatures become more valuable, as even middle hp creatures may route after one hit now, so who cares if you only have 35 hp vs. 65 hp? | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 2:27 PM |
| | I think it looks like a great fit with grimlock barbarians, who get something they need either way. | |
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Zyla
Underboss
1191 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 3:16 PM |
| I could see a Balor working goof with the Tiefling Blademaster, as it increases followers damage which means a moral save sooner, that red samurai will be doing 20 magic+5 fire damage, and even grimlocks will be doing 25 damage.
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