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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
    
 | | 02/03/2006 10:03 AM |
| Points: 232
Alignment: Any
Commander 4
Level: 15
Speed: F8
AC: 25
HP: 175
Melee Attack: +15/+10 (10 magic)
Type: Humanoid (Human)
Commander Effect: Mordenkainen's Vengeful Hound (You have Line of Sight, and Line of Effect to enemy creatures within 6 sqaures. Enemies lose conceal and take 10 magic damage whenever they activate.)
Special Abilities: Unique, Flight, Immune Fire, Quick Cast [][], Spell Penetration, Spell Resistance, Sudden Empower [][] (Damage +10, 1 spell that deals damage)
Spells:
4th: maximized magic missile (unlimited) (sight; 20 damage), dimension door [][] (self; place this creature in any space it can see at least a part of)
5th: cone of cold [][] (cone; 30 cold damage, DC 18), maximized melfs acid arrow [][] (sight, 40 acid damage, ignore SR)
6th: chain lightening [][](sight, radius 4, 40 electricity damage, DC 20)
7th: Mordenkainen's sword [][] (range 6, 15 magic damage when target creature activates)
If WotC was truly concerned about Mordenkainen + Epic Elminster in > 500 pts then they should have been it some sort of Arrogant/Prideful/Almighty type of special ability (this creature neither gives nor receives any beneficial effect to another creature, aside from it's commander rating), instead of stupidly overcosting it (note to various and sundry people that I may offend, "stupidly" refers to the amount of overcosting, not WotC). | |
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azuretide
Sergeant
407 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 10:25 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum
Points: 232
Alignment: Any
Commander 4
Level: 15
Speed: F8
AC: 25
HP: 175
Melee Attack: +15/+10 (10 magic)
Type: Humanoid (Human)
Commander Effect: Mordenkainen's Vengeful Hound (You have Line of Sight, and Line of Effect to enemy creatures within 6 sqaures. Enemies lose conceal and take 10 magic damage whenever they activate.)
Special Abilities: Unique, Flight, Immune Fire, Quick Cast [][], Spell Penetration, Spell Resistance, Sudden Empower [][] (Damage +10, 1 spell that deals damage)
Spells:
4th: maximized magic missile (unlimited) (sight; 20 damage), dimension door [][] (self; place this creature in any space it can see at least a part of)
5th: cone of cold [][] (cone; 30 cold damage, DC 18), maximized melfs acid arrow [][] (sight, 40 acid damage, ignore SR, DC 19)
6th: chain lightening [][](sight, radius 4, 40 electricity damage, DC 20)
7th: Mordenkainen's sword [][] (range 6, 15 magic damage when target creature activates)
If WotC was truly concerned about Mordenkainen + Epic Elminster in > 500 pts then they should have been it some sort of Arrogant/Prideful/Almighty type of special ability (this creature neither gives nor receives any beneficial effect to another creature, aside from it's commander rating), instead of stupidly overcosting it.
Ok for 232 points this is a little rediculus there would be no band in epic that wouldnt have him in it. He now has obscene amount of spells can fit into any faction, for some reason you gave a DC on acid arrow which does not have a save, maximised magic missle would do 25 not 20 and having unlimited of them would again be not viable for the points. The figure you have proposed would be more in the almost 400 points range. If he was 232 points anyone could play him and 7 zombie whites, you would never loose As you could keep the enemy from ever getting to him and he could do an obscene amount of damage every turn. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 10:34 AM |
| Paragraphs my rambling friend, paragraphs.
quote:
Originally posted by azuretide
He now has obscene amount of spells can fit into any faction, for some reason you gave a DC on acid arrow which does not have a save, maximised magic missle would do 25 not 20 and having unlimited of them would again be not viable for the points.
I only added maximized magic missile, and dimensional door. Fixed the EMAR save, unlimited isn't so game breaking, I mean look @ the Archmage.
quote:
Originally posted by azuretide
The figure you have proposed would be more in the almost 400 points range. If he was 232 points anyone could play him and 7 zombie whites, you would never loose As you could keep the enemy from ever getting to him and he could do an obscene amount of damage every turn.
An obscene amount of damage for the first 2-3 turns, then pretty much subpar compared to beaters. | |
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azuretide
Sergeant
407 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 10:37 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum
An obscene amount of damage for the first 2-3 turns, then pretty much subpar compared to beaters.
Like I said you would never loose if you used meat shields like the zombie whites with him if he had these stats | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 10:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum
If WotC was truly concerned about Mordenkainen + Epic Elminster in > 500 pts then they should have been it some sort of Arrogant/Prideful/Almighty type of special ability (this creature neither gives nor receives any beneficial effect to another creature, aside from it's commander rating), instead of stupidly overcosting it.
I too am outraged that the designers overcosted Mordenkainen because they were stupid. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 10:41 AM |
| | (note to various and sundry people that I may offend, "stupidly" refers to the amount of overcosting, not WotC). | |
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Draxle
Sneak
127 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 10:54 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum
Points: 232
Alignment: Any
Commander 4
Level: 15
Speed: F8
AC: 25
HP: 175
Melee Attack: +15/+10 (10 magic)
Type: Humanoid (Human)
Commander Effect: Mordenkainen's Vengeful Hound (You have Line of Sight, and Line of Effect to enemy creatures within 6 sqaures. Enemies lose conceal and take 10 magic damage whenever they activate.)
Special Abilities: Unique, Flight, Immune Fire, Quick Cast [][], Spell Penetration, Spell Resistance, Sudden Empower [][] (Damage +10, 1 spell that deals damage)
Spells:
4th: maximized magic missile (unlimited) (sight; 20 damage), dimension door [][] (self; place this creature in any space it can see at least a part of)
5th: cone of cold [][] (cone; 30 cold damage, DC 18), maximized melfs acid arrow [][] (sight, 40 acid damage, ignore SR)
6th: chain lightening [][](sight, radius 4, 40 electricity damage, DC 20)
7th: Mordenkainen's sword [][] (range 6, 15 magic damage when target creature activates)
If WotC was truly concerned about Mordenkainen + Epic Elminster in > 500 pts then they should have been it some sort of Arrogant/Prideful/Almighty type of special ability (this creature neither gives nor receives any beneficial effect to another creature, aside from it's commander rating), instead of stupidly overcosting it (note to various and sundry people that I may offend, "stupidly" refers to the amount of overcosting, not WotC).
I agree that it appears that Morty was over costed on the Epic side, but with the new gargantuan (sp) size figures 1000pt games will become available, would be interesting to see El, Morty and a few Archmages with some meatshields in a 1000 pt band.
Drax | |
Have/Want List:
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Draxle
Sneak
127 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 11:06 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Draxle
quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum
Points: 232
Alignment: Any
Commander 4
Level: 15
Speed: F8
AC: 25
HP: 175
Melee Attack: +15/+10 (10 magic)
Type: Humanoid (Human)
Commander Effect: Mordenkainen's Vengeful Hound (You have Line of Sight, and Line of Effect to enemy creatures within 6 sqaures. Enemies lose conceal and take 10 magic damage whenever they activate.)
Special Abilities: Unique, Flight, Immune Fire, Quick Cast [][], Spell Penetration, Spell Resistance, Sudden Empower [][] (Damage +10, 1 spell that deals damage)
Spells:
4th: maximized magic missile (unlimited) (sight; 20 damage), dimension door [][] (self; place this creature in any space it can see at least a part of)
5th: cone of cold [][] (cone; 30 cold damage, DC 18), maximized melfs acid arrow [][] (sight, 40 acid damage, ignore SR)
6th: chain lightening [][](sight, radius 4, 40 electricity damage, DC 20)
7th: Mordenkainen's sword [][] (range 6, 15 magic damage when target creature activates)
If WotC was truly concerned about Mordenkainen + Epic Elminster in > 500 pts then they should have been it some sort of Arrogant/Prideful/Almighty type of special ability (this creature neither gives nor receives any beneficial effect to another creature, aside from it's commander rating), instead of stupidly overcosting it (note to various and sundry people that I may offend, "stupidly" refers to the amount of overcosting, not WotC).
I agree that it appears that Morty was over costed on the Epic side, but with the new gargantuan (sp) size figures 1000pt games will become available, would be interesting to see El, Morty and a few Archmages with some meatshields in a 1000 pt band.
Drax
Ok, I had to go and see what I could make with 1000pts and Mort + El Combo... Here's what I came up with.
Elminster (Epic) - 269
Morty (Epic) - 269
Archmage - 98
Aspect of Kord (Epic) - 208
Aspect of Kord - 65
Aspect of Kord - 65
Nebbin, Gnome Illusionist - 18
Mialee Elf, Wizard - 6
998 pts 8 activations
Nebbin is there of course to blur all the hitters (with Elmisters help). With 3 large based Kords you have plenty of blocking power and Elminsters commander 6 you only have a 15% chance to lose a morale check with a level 10 creature. I'd be happy with that percentage. Epic El + Epic Mort + Arch gives you a couple of spells to choose from... I think it would be a fun band to play.
Drax | |
Have/Want List:
http://www.maxminis.com/hw_list.asp?user=Draxle
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 11:10 AM |
| Elminster would only get the spells from the Archmage, Mialee and Nebbin.
He'd be a little low on spells that inflict damage. | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 11:19 AM |
| I'm not sure if Epic Elminister should be able to get spell from Epic Mordy in >500 pts or not.
There are some really powerful interactions that you can set up at that point cost, depending on the figure limit, and I'm not sure is Epic Elminster + Epic Mordy would actually be overpowered.
If it was deemed that they were overpowered I would bein favor of giving Mordy some sort of special ability that I described that would prevent him from passing spells onto Epic Elminsters. Overcosting should not have been a viable solution. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/03/2006 11:20 AM |
| I think that what bshugg said about the Aspect of Lolth also applies to Mordenkainen. We don't want these retailer kit cards to be so good that these figures dominate the skirmish scene. If everyone at GenCon playing in 500-point ends up with a band that has one of these retailer kit pieces in it, then WotC screwed up and tilted the game too heavily in favor of the skirmishers that have access to the online buzz.
Sure, they'll get them as downloads and all that. But, the most efficient, most playable pieces should be for sale. (For sale from WotC, not from sellers on eBay.)
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 11:21 AM |
| | I thought there would be some comment on my epic version of the commander effect, but it must be underwhelming, as no one has noticed it. | |
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Use quick search to see scans of every stat card! | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 11:25 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
I think that what bshugg said about the Aspect of Lolth also applies to Mordenkainen. We don't want these retailer kit cards to be so good that these figures dominate the skirmish scene. If everyone at GenCon playing in 500-point ends up with a band that has one of these retailer kit pieces in it, then WotC screwed up and tilted the game too heavily in favor of the skirmishers that have access to the online buzz.
Sure, they'll get them as downloads and all that. But, the most efficient, most playable pieces should be for sale. (For sale from WotC, not from sellers on eBay.)
Dave
I don't think we should have any problem with older pieces being competitive. Promotional pieces yes, but older pieces no.
Well I might be annoyed on behalf of noobies if a Harbinger piece became all the rage, but anything else is reasonable (aside from Drizzt, but we won't talk about him). | |
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Use quick search to see scans of every stat card! | |
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TruNutral88
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 11:32 AM |
| | Yeah WotC is still learning to cost epic figs i guess. And overpricing them as well for the retailer. But Underdark prices were alright. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 2:01 PM |
| | From what I've seen, I like him and think he's costed correctly. I already have ideas for him after one quick lookover. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
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Chad the DragonLordofAiur
Underboss
1085 Posts
Southeast PA
| | 02/03/2006 2:04 PM |
| | Epic Mordenkainen is not overcosted. He does a huge amount of area damage. Way more than Elminster. | |
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My combined DDM Skirmish record of all games ever played in all formats.
486 - 188 - 4 | |
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PIGSNOT
349 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 4:28 PM |
| I think the problem is that Mordy doesn't have an unlimited damage spell. Look how many people commented that if Mordy's Acid Arrow was unlimited, he'd be nasty.
But look how much damage he does, compared to how quickly he gets around! He's going to have seven rounds of putting the hurt on. By then, everything should be winding down in the match.
Eli | |
"My presidency would be global." -Christopher Walken | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/03/2006 5:30 PM |
| As is, Mordy is a slightly weak, but acceptable figure. Imagine this as the start of a turn:
"I move my Evermeet wizard, here, then cast transposition to switch it and Epic Mordy. Now I move him 8 and double chain lightning your assembly tile. That is somewhere between 40 and 80 damage per figure ..."
Anything (without SR all) with less than 165 hps has a chance of routing off the board on rd 1.
OF COURSE, proper figure placement can block this at times (depending upon warband composition, map choice, etc ...). However, even in the middle of a game, this is still a possibility.
Mordy is expensive, but I can still see a warband with him in it winning some matches. He'll likely die in most of them, but he can still deliver enough punishment to earn his cost. | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 5:36 PM |
| | He could also be fun in LE. Imagine Steel Predators double move a nd swift cone followed by Mordy double-Chain Lightning'ing the Pred (who is immune to electricity. That's up to 120 damage in 2 activations. With that kind of potential damage, it makes sense for the designers to price conservatively. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/03/2006 5:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by taliesin
He could also be fun in LE. Imagine Steel Predators double move a nd swift cone followed by Mordy double-Chain Lightning'ing the Pred (who is immune to electricity. That's up to 120 damage in 2 activations. With that kind of potential damage, it makes sense for the designers to price conservatively.
Ohhhhh ... I like this idea. It has ... possibilities. | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 5:51 PM |
| | I think that is the reason for the conservative pricing... all of the possible nasty combos | |
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roonechr
Sergeant
604 Posts
Kansas City, MO
| | 02/03/2006 6:13 PM |
| | It occurred to me in the other thread about Mordy that they removed Sudden Empower from his Epic version because of its possible interaction with Mordenkainen's sword. | |
Champion Of Hydras | |
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Captain_Duergar
Skirmisher
18 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 6:38 PM |
| | Ok I hate to say it but you people crying over mordys stats aint that bright. Mordy can dish out a lot of damage as it is. plus with Elemister who gets 1 of every spell that mordy has both together are sick to give him more spells and cheaper would create a force in 1000pt that currently couldnt be equaled. Although I am disapointed that mordy does not have a fire ball because lets face it mordy should have 1 fire ball. | |
Determination equals Power | |
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Zyla
Underboss
1191 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 7:29 PM |
| | Its an out of print figure too, so it cant be too uber. | |
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roonechr
Sergeant
604 Posts
Kansas City, MO
| | 02/03/2006 7:42 PM |
| quote:
Mordy can dish out a lot of damage as it is. plus with Elemister who gets 1 of every spell that mordy has both together are sick to give him more spells and cheaper would create a force in 1000pt that currently couldnt be equaled.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, Elminster cannot get Mordy's spells even in 1000 point because Mordy's cost is not less than Elminster's. Also, I think it would be a huge mistake to restrain design based on the unsupported 1000 point format. We may finally be getting away from the limitations that the 100 point format placed on 10-25 point minis; the last thing we need is to have epic minis designed around 1000 point. | |
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Thenameless
Warlord
11412 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 02/03/2006 8:17 PM |
| | I agree that the epic version of Mordenkainen is not worth 269 points. This guy is the iconic of iconics. Come on, he is the pet character of the co-inventor of the game. He should have been given a little more love and respect. At 269, I don't think he will make his way into a competitive warband. I can see the problem with determining a cost for Mordenkainen though. What makes it so tough is that he can be in any faction, so you have to play it safe in case he gets some kind of awesome synergy in the future. | |
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Fearfrost
Sergeant
518 Posts
| | 02/03/2006 8:20 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum
I thought there would be some comment on my epic version of the commander effect, but it must be underwhelming, as no one has noticed it.
Well if it makes you happy I thought it was a bit much when combined with everything else. I also think that quick cast and dimension door should come at avery high price more so with an aoe spell and empower. you could get a first turn cone for a pontetial of 40dmg on almost any map with no way for your opponent to block or prevent it. then you can DD away and blast from afar. | |
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