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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
    
United States
 | | 02/15/2006 8:23 AM |
| This first came up for me here: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15360
And, it got me thinking. If anyone can design a speed 4 beater, it's the maxminis crowd. Many people here argue that speed 4 simply cannot be competitive because of the "speed kills" tenet. And, in assault, this may be generally true. But, even in assault, it's only true when you cannot assign other pieces to that task (and, you usually should be able to do so, so it's circumventable).
So, here we go. I'll begin with the same made-up piece I posted in the thread above, and we'll go from there.
The aim is to tweak everything except the speed and come up with a piece that can compete as a beater in today's environment. My own view is that, so long as you can stay even on assault points, the speed of the rest of your band is only so relevant. (I do recognize that your opponent, with all speed 10 pieces, could go hunting for tile grabbers and then play keep away.)
But, I still think that if you make a speed 4 piece powerful enough, that they could work. Here's my first stab at it. Feel free to critique.
Faction LG
Cost 46
Level 12
AC 23
HP 95
Attack +18/+13
Damage 20 magic
Speed 4
Fearless
No other special abilities.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 02/15/2006 8:33 AM |
| IMHO 46pts is too cheap and would be under priced. Maybe 50-55pts. LG unit doing 20 magic a pop for less than 50pts is too good for its faction.
Maybe if you gave it a 65pts instead of 95 you could justify the cost. | |
They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
To rip the boosters. To count the minis spilled out before you, and to hear the indifference of the women... | |
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Tactician
Sergeant
888 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 8:43 AM |
| Mord, Cleric of Moradin
Commander: 3
Faction: LG/CG
Cost: 55
Attack: +10/+8 10 Magic
Speed: 4
Level: 8
Hp: 45
UNIQUE
This Commander can use Commander efects of commanders with higher Commander rating that are in your warband
Warbandbuilding: Dwarfs of any faction are legal in your warband
Spells:
Grant speed [] (any warband recieves +2 speed), Cure Moderate Wounds [][](heals 10 hit points), Bless [] (your warband +1 AC) Magic Weapon [][] (+1 to attacks-ignore DR)
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Trade Topic & Reviews of Dwarven Forge & Finished Trades& Champion of Fzoul ChembrylD&D Miniatures Played to the Max | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 9:20 AM |
| One problem that all the speed 4 high AC beaters have is "Couatl Dependence". You're very nearly oblidged to take a Couatl, which really limits your other commander options.
Here's my LG speed 4 beater:
Dwarf Adventurer
Cost 34
Level 9
AC 25
HP 75
+14/+9 (15 magic)
Resist Energy 10 (as a special ability - choose energy type)
Save +4 (or bump level up to 13)
With this, you have something very similar to the Duergar Champ for LG. Slower, but tougher. You have very nice synergy with the BPM, making them virtually fearless. You can fit 4 in with the BPM, and still have 21 points for fodder.
May be slightly undercosted, but even at 36 pts, you could still max out your activations. | |
Rhane
"The focus is sharp in the city..."
Have/Want List
Reference thread
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/15/2006 9:25 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Newtoncain
IMHO 46pts is too cheap and would be under priced. Maybe 50-55pts. LG unit doing 20 magic a pop for less than 50pts is too good for its faction.
Maybe if you gave it a 65pts instead of 95 you could justify the cost.
Well, your O isn't necessarily H, your input is pretty much always highly relevant. [:)]
If it's true that a LG unit under 50 points shouldn't be able to do 20 magic damage, then, maybe LG isn't properly designed (i.e. no wonder it has trouble remaining competitive). In effect, the Gith Monk is a 34-point piece that does 20 damage (barring death of the YM, or nerfing of his commander effect).
And, dropping him to 65 points makes him the same as a lot of already existing, already non-competitive LG pieces.
That's my point--kinda. I think that the costing of speed 4 pieces has generally been in error, otherwise we'd see them in competitive play. Once upon a time, the Purple Dragon Knight was a viable commander for LG. Today, I wouldn't risk it, I actually consider him fragile in the current environment. Give him 95 hit points, and maybe he's worth his cost (a 3-GM GAS band still has him down to 5 hit points at the end of a single round though, and a Marut, double-Couatl can put him in the same place).
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Moonglow
Sneak
56 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 9:44 AM |
| I would suggest keeping him at Bold instead of Fearless to keep the LG:ish "team" feel to it.
But in my humble opinion, what LG needs is a piece that forces the opposition to come to them. As it is right now, with a speed 4 piece the faster opposition is running in circles around the slower pieces and forcing battle on their own terms. I want a Greater warmage with a couple of EMM:s, EMAA:s and one or two more powerfull spells, perhaps something similar to Mordys sword but a little bit weaker. This will deny the opposition the time to play tactical and force them to get into a fight on LG:s terms.
MHO. [:)] | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/15/2006 10:16 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Moonglow
I would suggest keeping him at Bold instead of Fearless to keep the LG:ish "team" feel to it.
Nice call.quote:
But in my humble opinion, what LG needs is a piece that forces the opposition to come to them. As it is right now, with a speed 4 piece the faster opposition is running in circles around the slower pieces and forcing battle on their own terms. I want a Greater warmage with a couple of EMM:s, EMAA:s and one or two more powerfull spells, perhaps something similar to Mordys sword but a little bit weaker. This will deny the opposition the time to play tactical and force them to get into a fight on LG:s terms.
The Greater Warmage idea is a good one. Like the Gauth, the way to deal with such a piece is to get up to it and start swinging. If LG had something that was basically it's own Gauth, this could work.
Of course, it's not a speed 4 beater, but it would fit.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/15/2006 10:18 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Nah. What LG needs is someone with tag-along dimension door or teleport. Or Scout / advanced setup. Or more units with stable footing and good maps with difficult terrain.
Or teleporters.
I'm trying to be patient. [:)]
Speaking of which, does anyone here actually know how the teleporters will work? Oh, and do you also happen to not be bound by an NDA so you can say anything about them? (Not holding my breath.)
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 10:27 AM |
| | I still don't why everyone seems so dead-set on LG requiring speed 4 hitters. Why not just give them Speed 6+ hitters like everyone else has access to? Whats so special about Speed 4 that demands it have competitive pieces with that speed? | |
I am not gone. | |
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Moonglow
Sneak
56 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 10:32 AM |
| quote:
Of course, it's not a speed 4 beater, but it would fit.
True, but we already have a couple of borderline speed 4 pieces that might actually be good if speed was not such a huge factor. Dragon samurai, Iron golem and perhaps even Gold champion and Dwarf ancestor (well, nah, maybe not...). Not that I wouldn't like to see a piece like the one you suggested, I am just tackling the "problem" from another angle.
A part of the problem, as you mention, is the fact that speed doesn’t seem to be priced right as I see it. A speed 4 piece is significantly weaker then a speed 6, but still the cost does not reflect that in a good way. I think that the piece that you suggested is just about perfect for a powerful speed 4 piece, maybe add a couple of points to the cost and replace the Fearless with Bold, call it something along the lines of Regal high guard and lean back having created a good piece. Well, and then test it of corse. [:)]
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 10:33 AM |
| I'm one of the people that have raised this.
I think the problem is one of the scenarios, as much as it is the pieces.
Take the Dwarven Defender. That piece fits the RPG concept perfectly, and could be effective, if only you could stand and defend (at least it is close, the hp are a little low). A scenario change could make that happen. I'm not sure I want dwarves and heavily armored paladins to be speed 6 or 8. What we need is a scenario that awards what they do well (though, I believe the damage on amost of these minis is too low). One map does not solve the problem, that just reduces my options.
To the question, I'm not sure a speed 4 hitter can be made that is effective on its own with the current scenarios. It needs someone to fling it into battle, or a GMA (or how about 2!), or a spell to give them burst. That means you have to pay more for every one of them than they are worth on their own. Which, to me, means speed 4 minis need to be undercosted (or, thinking another way, the point reduction for speed 4 needs to be higher).
I'm not convinced an LG "gauth" is the answer, but it might be. But, again, that is not a fix for the speed 4 minis themselves, is it?
I'll try to come up with some alternatives when I get home from work. | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
926 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 10:33 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
I still don't why everyone seems so dead-set on LG requiring speed 4 hitters. Why not just give them Speed 6+ hitters like everyone else has access to? Whats so special about Speed 4 that demands it have competitive pieces with that speed?
I don't think people are actively pining for Speed 4 beaters. I think that people believe that DDM R&D will continue to produce Speed 4 beaters, and would at least like these pieces to be priced properly (i.e. given a significant discount)and in line with the community's experience of the detriment that speed 4represents to a piece.
Since R&D seems generally to prefer to keep skirmish stats in line with RPG stats, and since many LG pieces are heavily armored humanoids who normally have an RPG speed of 20 feet (4 squares), it seems reasonable to conclude that a lot of future LG jitters will have speed 4. It would be nice if at least a few of them could be competitive. That would provide a little more variety in warband styles, as well.
Pat Lynch | |
Dreamblade Rules Advisor | |
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Moonglow
Sneak
56 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 10:36 AM |
| quote:
I still don't why everyone seems so dead-set on LG requiring speed 4 hitters. Why not just give them Speed 6+ hitters like everyone else has access to? Whats so special about Speed 4 that demands it have competitive pieces with that speed?
Well, for me I am a bit bummed by the fact that speed is so very important in the game. I want to "break" a speed 4 unit and thereby add another dimension to the game so to speak. I know this is an awful argument, but I do not see the speed as such a huge factor in real combat (big, but not as huge) and as such I would like my favorite game to reflect that. I know, it kind of sucks as it is a game that is not meant to simulate real life/combat, but that is how I feel anyhow.
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/15/2006 10:45 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by lynchpt
I don't think people are actively pining for Speed 4 beaters. I think that people believe that DDM R&D will continue to produce Speed 4 beaters, and would at least like these pieces to be priced properly (i.e. given a significant discount)and in line with the community's experience of the detriment that speed 4represents to a piece.
Precisely. Thanks for saying what I neglected to.quote:
Since R&D seems generally to prefer to keep skirmish stats in line with RPG stats, and since many LG pieces are heavily armored humanoids who normally have an RPG speed of 20 feet (4 squares), it seems reasonable to conclude that a lot of future LG jitters will have speed 4. It would be nice if at least a few of them could be competitive. That would provide a little more variety in warband styles, as well.
Pat Lynch
Exactly. My hope with this thread is to influence decisions by, say, this time next year. I know it's too late for the next three sets, and I don't have any reasonable expectation that LG will have very many good speed 4 LG pieces between now and then. (It would be nice . . . .) But, I figure if it can be shown that speed 4 is actually a more substantial drawback than the designers so far have seemed to acknowledge, maybe we can get them to make a change.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 12:36 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Moonglow
Well, for me I am a bit bummed by the fact that speed is so very important in the game. I want to "break" a speed 4 unit and thereby add another dimension to the game so to speak.
For the same reason in reverse, I'm not sure if I really want to see a speed 4 unit that's tier one. Speed and tactical options are even more important at the highest level of competition. Just as the Drider was great in the hands of a good player, but totally broken in the hands of a great player; a speed 4 unit that's costed to be really good in the hands of a great player might well be broken in a game between casual players.
In other words, the discount for the low speed has to be higher to get the best players to sacrifice tactical options for power, because those players can get more out of tactical options.
That's the theory, anyway. Not sure if it would really play out that way in practice - there might be more strategic and tactical depth to speed 4 units than I would think.
Even if the above theory is correct, though, they could do a bit better of a job, certainly. In the past, the most efficient fighters independant of the speed stat, have been speed 6 or speed 9 (Ogre Ravager, Orc Champion) or similar. The Skullclan Hunter I got intrigued by when helping doubtofbuddha practice after Deathknell came out. But the more I ran the numbers, the more I saw that even if he were always getting the sneak attack damage, and even if he were speed 6, his pure numbers were still a shade weaker than an Ogre Ravager or Orc Champion. Hmm. Doesn't make him a bad mini - *lots* of minis can't compare to Ravager/Orc Champ, and at least he comes halfway close. But it does mean that he's not really a tier one mini, when you add back in his disadvantages, which force tactical inflexibility. Even on teleporting maps, or whatever, the Skullclan just isn't a tier one level mini.
The Skullclan is probably the best speed 4 mini with the possible exception of the Clay Golem. So there's plenty of room for improvement. | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/15/2006 12:57 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
The Skullclan is probably the best speed 4 mini with the possible exception of the Clay Golem. So there's plenty of room for improvement.
This is an excellent way of approaching this issue. Which speed 4 (or lower) pieces are the best for what they do, and what would push them up to be competitive pieces?
The Clay Golem, I agree, is right at the threshhold. If it didn't have the liability of being confused when it's out of command, it would be that much better. If it were more like the Marut, and didn't need a commander to remain playable, that would be great.
The Skullclan isn't too far away, the Warforged Hero isn't too far away either (15 magic damage wouldn't make it competitive either, but 20 might).
So, if Figure X had change Y, you'd play it. (Sticking to speed 4 or lower.)
What figures, and what changes?
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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TheBlackFlail
Sneak
57 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 1:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
For the same reason in reverse, I'm not sure if I really want to see a speed 4 unit that's tier one. Speed and tactical options are even more important at the highest level of competition. Just as the Drider was great in the hands of a good player, but totally broken in the hands of a great player; a speed 4 unit that's costed to be really good in the hands of a great player might well be broken in a game between casual players.
Isn't it pretty sad, then, that the core of LG (I'm just not seeing all that many speed 6+ armored beaters & fodder in my LG crystal ball) must be doomed to never have any tier one skirmish pieces? | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 1:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
Faction LG
Cost 46
Level 12
AC 23
HP 95
Attack +18/+13
Damage 20 magic
Speed 4
Fearless
No other special abilities.
Okay, Dave, looks like I'll be the first to comment on your proposed stats.
The existing figures that I would compare this to are the Frenzied Berserker and Helmed Horror.
The advantages this piece has over FB are:
-6 cost
+5 HP
no Burnout
+13 AC
+4 level/save
+4 attack
The advantages the FB has are:
+10 damage
+4 speed
Deathstrike
Aura of Fear
The advantages of the LG figure over HH:
+2 level/save
+2 attack
+5 damage (+magic and non-elemental)
+1 AC
The advantages of the HH:
+2 speed (and flying)
construct immunities
spell immunities
ranged attack
-1 cost
Given these comparisons, I think that the LG is a little bit better than either the HH or FB, but I think that may be necessary to encourage the use of a speed 4 figure. Running three of them with a HOP + filler would be nasty. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 1:03 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
quote:
Originally posted by Dagni
The Skullclan is probably the best speed 4 mini with the possible exception of the Clay Golem. So there's plenty of room for improvement.
This is an excellent way of approaching this issue. Which speed 4 (or lower) pieces are the best for what they do, and what would push them up to be competitive pieces?
The Clay Golem, I agree, is right at the threshhold. If it didn't have the liability of being confused when it's out of command, it would be that much better. If it were more like the Marut, and didn't need a commander to remain playable, that would be great.
The Skullclan isn't too far away, the Warforged Hero isn't too far away either (15 magic damage wouldn't make it competitive either, but 20 might).
So, if Figure X had change Y, you'd play it. (Sticking to speed 4 or lower.)
What figures, and what changes?
Dave
I was more thinking of it in different terms. Not if figure X (that has speed 4) had change Y, but if figure Y (with speed greater than 4) had speed 4. If the Marut had speed 4, and no other changes, it would be one of the best speed 4 units in the game. Give it a conservative +15 hp to go along with that, and the "slow Marut" is probably top-level playable, whether or not that'd be worse than the current version. Likewise, a speed 4 Ogre Ravager with no other changes would be better than what LG has gotten in the past. The Helmed Horror would be just fine with speed F4. And so on. The Gauth would be... oh, right.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 1:52 PM |
| | I'm also of the mind that speed 4 is useless in many cases. If you have speed 4, you are simply at a tactical disadvantage. What LG needs is good spellcasting/archer support to force you to come to them. The Warforged Hero would then be a nice piece, for example, as would the Dragon Samurai. The Skullclan Hunter is nigh useless with out a fast flanker or one with flight. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 2:14 PM |
| I think we need to look no farther than the teleporter map. The nice thing about it is you're going to be able to throw a commander 7 in there and feel pretty comfortable about map control.
Now, we may not have the piece we really need yet, either, but we're getting close. The loyal earth elemental has a lot of advantages on that map... | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Kalrin
Sneak
90 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 2:18 PM |
| I think the reason everyone wants a speed 4 hitter is so that they can represent the Fullplate wearing Sword and Board fighter decently. Problem with that idea is though, the guy wearing all the armor is still likely to get hit by a FB type easily and for alot of damage. So what about trying out the following:
Cost: 45
Level 8
Speed 4
AC: 24
HP: 75
Atk: +13/+8 (15 Magic)
Abilities:
Shock Resistance (This creature takes 5 less damage from melee attacks which deal more then 15 damage)
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 2:38 PM |
| It's not that I care about representing a slow RPG "creature", I want to be able to use more of the minis I own, and those that I will own. Since we can expect to receive more speed 4 minis, I want them to be useful in DDM, not just in the RPG.
Shock Resistance is a great idea. Since a speed 4 mini can't control where the fitght takes place, and is ceding ground in many cases, being able to survive longer is important (so they can be around longer to be in combat longer to do more damage longer).
Given that assault requires your opponent to come to you, to some degree, why haven't we seen speed 4 creatures be effective in taking tile grabbers down? I suppose it is the beholder and archmage, but there must be other reasons why that hasn't worked. | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 2:42 PM |
| The problem is assault, not the abilities of the figures. Making ultra efficient slow guys just adds to the problem in my opinion. If they are so efficient that they are playable in assault then they are making a lot of stuff unplayable in the process. The designers need to break the design mold and come up with creative ways to make playable speed 4 guys. Ways that don't powercreep a bunch of figures out of play.
Here's an example:
LG Dwarfhold Defender 42
Lvl:8 MV: 4
AC: 20 HP: 75
Melee: +15/+10 (15 magic)
SA:
Sturdy: Takes 5 less damage from spells and special abilities
Defender: Enemy figures can not claim assault points when in a victory area with Dwarfhold Defender.
Guardian: Earns double victory points for eliminating enemy figures while in an opposing victory area.
Phalanx Fighting
This gives you an efficient but not overpowered fighter that offers an interesting warband concept in assault format: Defense. Something that dwarves are famous for is their ability to defend their hometurf. Shouldn't the game encourage that? He has a slightly higher than normal attack value because I think the designers messed up with AC's lately trying to make effective slower creatures the wrong way. He hasSturdyas a nod for LG bands so they don't always HAVE to play the couatl. It gets better if you do though. Finally he has phalanx fighting because its a sexy and flavorful ability that the game needs more of.
Even better he makes other speed 4 guys better because they don't have to rush across the board and attack a hardened position because they are always down on points early in the game.
Some other abilities that could help counteract slow movement:
Familiar Terrain: +10 damage when on opposing victory areas
Home Guard: Gains fearless on opposing victory areas
Homeland tunnels: Replace movement; if this figure is on an opposing victory area, place him in any legal position on a different opposing victory area.
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Looking for someone to cosponser a midwest DDM event. let me know if your interested!
Check out my brand new blog:
http://bshugg.blogspot.com | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 2:42 PM |
| | I am going to have to contest the idea that a Commander 7 and the Teleport map will be enough to ensure the viability of Speed 4 bands. Even if it allows them to get anywhere you need on the map, you are still going to have to deal with situations where you lose initiative. If getting the wrong map results in you losing most of your matches than you won't see people running Speed 4 bands. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 2:50 PM |
| I agree with that last post for sure. I don't want to be required to use one particular map, any more than I want to be required to use any one faction or creature.
I really like some of the special abilities around defense. Those are the kind of thing that make great sense. | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 2:51 PM |
| How about an LG shoemaker/leatherworker (sort of like the dwarf artificer, but for speed).... he makes boots of speed... the special ability would be something like (+2 speed to your warband; no impact on flight speed of flying creatures, duh.)
he could also have a pair of magical boots of invisibility himself... giving him conceal 11. And on top of that, give him a nasty axe and put "the axe" in his name, so everyone on maxminis argues as to whether or not the axe is the one making the boots...
Ha ha ha ha [:D] | |
Champion of Remorhaz, and the Mighty Goblin Frog Riders | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 2:52 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by bshugg
The problem is assault, not the abilities of the figures. Making ultra efficient slow guys just adds to the problem in my opinion. If they are so efficient that they are playable in assault then they are making a lot of stuff unplayable in the process. The designers need to break the design mold and come up with creative ways to make playable speed 4 guys. Ways that don't powercreep a bunch of figures out of play.
Here's an example:
LG Dwarfhold Defender 42
Lvl:8 MV: 4
AC: 20 HP: 75
Melee: +15/+10 (15 magic)
SA:
Sturdy: Takes 5 less damage from spells and special abilities
Defender: Enemy figures can not claim assault points when in a victory area with Dwarfhold Defender.
Guardian: Earns double victory points for eliminating enemy figures while in an opposing victory area.
Phalanx Fighting
This gives you an efficient but not overpowered fighter that offers an interesting warband concept in assault format: Defense. Something that dwarves are famous for is their ability to defend their hometurf. Shouldn't the game encourage that? He has a slightly higher than normal attack value because I think the designers messed up with AC's lately trying to make effective slower creatures the wrong way. He hasSturdyas a nod for LG bands so they don't always HAVE to play the couatl. It gets better if you do though. Finally he has phalanx fighting because its a sexy and flavorful ability that the game needs more of.
Even better he makes other speed 4 guys better because they don't have to rush across the board and attack a hardened position because they are always down on points early in the game.
Some other abilities that could help counteract slow movement:
Familiar Terrain: +10 damage when on opposing victory areas
Home Guard: Gains fearless on opposing victory areas
Homeland tunnels: Replace movement; if this figure is on an opposing victory area, place him in any legal position on a different opposing victory area.
Brad thats awesome! Thats the thinking that we need here. There was a gnome prestige class in the Races of Faerun book that would also work great for that type of build. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 2:57 PM |
| I agree with the general tenet that speed 4 doesn't work well on a beater ... but only to a point.
Speed 4 beaters haven't performed well in the metagame since before Assault was introduced. (Even then, they weren't particularly popular, mainly because there wasn't a Drider in their faction [)].)
Anyway, I think the tenet is actually more complex than "speed 4 beaters don't work".
It's that speed 4 doesn't work on beaters that have damage/cost ratios typical of those we've seen in LG.
If, however, you increase the damage/cost ratio of a speed 4 beater, it becomes more playable. If you similarly increase the survivability/cost ratio of a speed 4 beater, it becomes even more playable.
Here are a couple ways for a speed 4 beater to be somewhat more playable:
1) Cost 36, Speed 4, Level 8, 80 hp, AC 23, Melee Attack +14 (40 magic)
At this point, he's kind of a Speed 8 beater with slow melee attack. You double move to base an enemy with it and force them to tangle with it. If they don't, they gamble with a 40 damage AoO. This guy also has good damage output via double move + snake's swiftness, or via charging.
2) Cost 36, Speed 4, Level 8, 80 hp, AC 22, Melee Attack +14/+9 (15 magic), Ranged Attack +13 (10 magic).
Although this guy doesn't have the ability to move very far late in a game for a key kill, a group of them can inflict a lot of punishment in the two rounds *before* engagement. In fact, since he doesn't need to double move twice before engagement, these guys sometimes cause the engagement to happen one round later than usual, which would be an interesting twist to engagement strategies.
(That's the conservative version of the ranged attack. You could potentially go as high as 15 magic on the ranged attack or give it a +18 on the ranged attack bonus, since it doesn't have any other special abilities.)
3) Cost 40, Speed 4, Level 8, 80 hp, AC 22, Melee Attack +14/+9 (15 magic), Breath Weapon [][] (Replaces attacks: line 12; 20 acid damage; DC 16).
Lines are money, baby. Well, lines are points in the bank, but you get my point.
Basically, they need to have a tactical option that makes up for their very short move & attack threshold. Normally, a speed 4 beater's ability to inflict damage is crippled by their low speed. However, if you give it a way to inflict damage *despite* its low speed, I think it can work.
Incidentally, I think Dave's original example is in the right cost ballpark. (Compare to a Helmed Horror, which has *way* more immunities, Speed 6, Flight, Blindsight, and a ranged attack.) The damage might be a tad high, though. Certainly 15 magic damage on both attacks would be fair, and 20 magic on the first and 15 magic on the second wouldn't be too unbalanced, IMO. | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 3:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
I agree with the general tenet that speed 4 doesn't work well on a beater ... but only to a point.
Speed 4 beaters haven't performed well in the metagame since before Assault was introduced. (Even then, they weren't particularly popular, mainly because there wasn't a Drider in their faction [)].)
The earlier ones were pretty much crap. On top of that they had the drider in the format making figures effectively have melee reach 12 on their nasty attacks. They didn't need to move to hit a speed 4 guy from beyond their maximum movement of 8. Now that the format has changed, its Assault that is holding them back more than anything else.
quote:
Originally posted by guyf
Anyway, I think the tenet is actually more complex than "speed 4 beaters don't work".
It's that speed 4 doesn't work on beaters that have damage/cost ratios typical of those we've seen in LG.
Your 100% correct on this. Its not just speed, its abilities and costs. However, I would rather have them go away from efficiency and try to come up with abilities that counter drawbacks. Otherwise everytime you release the next ultra efficient "answer" you narrow the field down a HUGE amount as another group of figures become unplayable in comparison. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 3:26 PM |
| Perhaps I'm too far off topic:
All great analysis. I'm still hoping to get some use out of my existing piles of dwarves and paladins through a new scenario (doesn't look promising), new map (maybe), or through new minis that make previously unusable minis more usable. That last one seems harder in an 8 creature format.
btw, I'm not sure how many existing speed 4 minis are close enough to playable that this is even possible.
As for guy's ideas, we've been asking for a ranged threat in LG for some time, maybe that is the ballista, maybe not.
An example of a new mini helping old minis: the village priest was a great idea, but no one plays 100 point games anymore. | |
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Champion of Juiblex | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/15/2006 3:26 PM |
| Thanks for all the excellent posts again. I really like some of what's being posted here. I think that both Guy and bshugg have excellent solutions to the problems we're discussing.
The teleporter will, I'm sure, offer a twist, but, unless I'm very mistaken or the designers were acting very uncharacteristically, the teleporter map is only going to be incrementally more advantageous to speed 4 pieces.
Also, lest anyone thing otherwise, I'm not trying to argue for a position that we need to find ways to make everything playable. I mean, there are some pieces that are just costed out of competitive play (i.e. Phoelarch), and that's fine. I understand the threads that have already addressed these issues.
I really like bshugg's special abilities on the dwarf piece he presented. This is the kind of thinking that really needs to be considered by a community such as ours. We can (and probably do) influence R&D on future sets.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 3:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Bshugg
Sturdy: Takes 5 less damage from spells and special abilities
Defender: Enemy figures can not claim assault points when in a victory area with Dwarfhold Defender.
Guardian: Earns double victory points for eliminating enemy figures while in an opposing victory area.
Some other abilities that could help counteract slow movement:
Familiar Terrain: +10 damage when on opposing victory areas
Home Guard: Gains fearless on opposing victory areas
Homeland tunnels: Replace movement; if this figure is on an opposing victory area, place him in any legal position on a different opposing victory area.
These are some great SAs I would really like to see on LG figures... I would also think having a slow ranged attack of any sort, even with a bad to-hit/low damage would help a bit, as then the figure is less likely to be just ignored by fast bands, and it could contribute to the fight even if not to its full melee potential. | |
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 3:32 PM |
| | I think it would be a much better idea to give them regular ranged attacks. Ranged attacks are underpowere as it is, and giving them slow ranged attacks will just allow them (maybe) one shot before enemy forces show up, and will further limit the Speed 4 unit's already reduced mobility. | |
I am not gone. | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 3:37 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
I think it would be a much better idea to give them regular ranged attacks. Ranged attacks are underpowere as it is, and giving them slow ranged attacks will just allow them (maybe) one shot before enemy forces show up, and will further limit the Speed 4 unit's already reduced mobility.
yeah Slow ranged attack is death. the HH has it and ive never seen it used. Slow only impacts their low mobility. A regular ranged attack where they could use a shoot and scoot strategy would be welcome though. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 3:42 PM |
| Hard to shoot and scoot at speed 4!
I love the idea of ranged attacks, they haven't been overly effective so far. Part of that is that current ranged creatures don't survive or thrive in combat. Guy's minis do that, so they are an improvement in that regard. | |
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 3:49 PM |
| I agree Zauk. Ranged minis are bad as it is. Making them slow attack on a Speed 4 unit is pushing them further into the realm of uselessness. Attaching a decent ranged attack (such as the ones that Guy suggested) are more along the lines of something that will actually be worthwhile as they make up for the Speed 4 without pushing them over the edge once melee combat is joined.
In fact, I think a combination of the sorts of units bshugg was suggesting and the ones that Guy was suggesting might provide the sort of figures needed to make a reasonable viable Speed 4 beater band. A way to make them really want to engage your units (the ranged attacks and breath weapons) and then punish them when they do. It might not quite be enough, but it would certainly be better then what we have now. | |
I am not gone. | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 4:06 PM |
| I think for a "Defender" piece in particular, slow ranged attack wouldn't hurt a unit whose purpose is to sit and defend, and it would help keep the cost down. Along these lines I am picturing a Dwarf with a crossbow (ex Dwarf Raider). Slow attack makes sense in this instance for the theme.
I think a great LG addition would be a similarly styled piece with a better normal ranged attack - I don't know what this would do to the cost of the piece.
If you added a slow ranged attack to the 42 point "Dwarfhold Defender" presented by Bshugg vs adding a normal ranged attack ... what would the cost difference be?
Maybe a normal ranged attack on a speed 4 figure shouldnt cost that much...
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Champion of Remorhaz, and the Mighty Goblin Frog Riders | |
|
Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/15/2006 4:45 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kalrin
Abilities:
Shock Resistance (This creature takes 5 less damage from melee attacks which deal more then 15 damage)
Cool idea. We could go further as well.
Lightly Fortified If this creature is the subject of a critical hit, this creature's player rolls d20, on a roll of 1 through 5 the attack succeeds but is not critical, on a roll of 6 through 20 the attack remains critical.
Heavily Fortified This creature is immune to critical hits.
Maybe dwarves are particularly good at making fortification armor?
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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