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Kalrin
Sneak
90 Posts
    
 | | 02/15/2006 5:00 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by frogrodeo
How about an LG shoemaker/leatherworker (sort of like the dwarf artificer, but for speed).... he makes boots of speed... the special ability would be something like (+2 speed to your warband; no impact on flight speed of flying creatures, duh.)
Bad idea. GAS with speed 12 scares me quite a bit more then GAS at speed 10. Now while it doesn't solve all bad match-ups, it does solve quite a few more. | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 5:49 PM |
| [quote]quote: Originally posted by Kalrin:
Bad idea. GAS with speed 12 scares me quite a bit more then GAS at speed 10.... quote]
I agree. My whole post was meant to be more humorous.... thus the "Ha ha ha ha [:D]" at the end.... maybe they could be Winged boots of Speedy Dwarven Fury instead, and double the movement and damage of all Dwarves? There, that would fix it! [:o)] | |
Champion of Remorhaz, and the Mighty Goblin Frog Riders | |
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 6:09 PM |
| I like bshugg's ideas, but I think he's dancing around the one that would make a speed 4 figure absolutely viable:
Stand Fast: This figure earns victory points for occupying an opponent's victory area as if it were occupying its own victory area.
On many maps, a speed 4 figure could easily earn first-turn victory points if it could occupy an opponent's victory area. In addition, while tile-grabbing fast pieces aren't uncommon, a low-cost yet reasonably sturdy LG piece would be able to hold its own against a typical 'fast grabber'.
The other nice thing this does is give the rest of the warband time to move out into the field and grab the other victory areas without a loss of tempo. Even if the enemy wipes out your Stand Fast figure on turn 3, by that time you're probably occupying one of your regular victory areas, so it's no great loss other than the points for the fig (which, as I pointed out, don't need to be great).
Consider this as a possibility:
Dwarven Honor Guard
Humanoid (Dwarf)
LG
11 points
Lvl: 6
HP: 25
AC: 21
Spd: 4
Melee: +7 (10)
Ranged: +5 (10)
Stand Fast
Slow Ranged Attack
If he lives through turn 2, he's earned back his cost and more, and made it so that the rest of your slow band doesn't need to divert from its regular goal to be successful. If your opponent can kill him on turn 2, then he's got a very slight edge, which might be compounded with other things he may have been able to do to keep you from making up for those lost turn 2 assault points.
Tactical decisions paying off and making the difference between victory and defeat - that's what it's all about, right?
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The thing I disagree with is that, to make a viable speed 4 figure, you have to make him not really speed 4 - that's my biggest beef with ideas like frogrodeo's 'shoemaker' concept. It's too much like cheating - it's like saying 'let's make a 5 damage beater viable' and just adding on Smite and Outsider Bane and other one-shot or conditional damage boosters until you can swing like an Orc Champ once or twice a battle against most likely opponents.
I'm not saying it's not a cool idea, just that it's not really an idea for making slow figures viable.
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Pauper | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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ReBell
Skirmisher
17 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 6:16 PM |
| I really like the ideas of adding unique abilities to the speed 4 characters to help offset the slow speed. I think this has a lot of potential and could increase the tactical options in the game.
I also think that development could take some cues from their decions on the Duergar Champ. He has speed 6 thanks to a pair of magical boots. It's not truly making speed 4 competitive, but it allows for pieces that would traditionally be speed 4 to reach speed 6.
I also like the idea of ranged attacks, but I think that you'd really want to avoid slow in most instances. | |
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| DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 6:49 PM |
| Wow. Great ideas in this thread. Kudos to all. Really exciting.
My main problem with Speed 4 is the lack of control.
An Orc Champ doing 25 damage a swing is one thing, but it's the speed that makes it a killer.
When running Speed 4 bands, the one thing you notice is that if your opponent has a squishy commander/spellcaster/support piece, you really are powerless to stop it.
If you look at a Helmed Horror, they only do 15 damage a swing - 10 in many situations. All things considered that isn't that huge. What's great is the F6. I've seen them take down ranged bands, spellcasters and commanders because they can easily double move over to base them. At that point, it's all over.
With speed 4, many rounds you're only choice is to hustle over to the other guy and start swinging, and eat anything that's flung from the back lines. Any audacious moves are rendered impossible, as you're telegraphing anything you try to do.
Guy made the point I think. If you ain't got speed, you need a big swing. That way you retain some ability to control your opponent's movements with a threatened attack of opportunity.
Speed 4 + a 10 dam swing really destroys a creature. You double move to base them in the engagement round, and your opponent can just leave with impunity.
With a reliable hit for 20-40 dam, they'll think twice, and you have a say in where it's going down.
I realise that many already know this is the problem with Speed 4. Just thought it warranted mention.
I like the ideas of special abilities linked to victory areas.
I resisted this for a while, as out here we mostly play standard matches. With the advent of the Slayer of Domiel and the Kobold Miner, and all maps including victory areas, it seems clear that assault is here to stay and standard is gone. We'll just have to adapt. I'm more than happy to move over to the assault format for the health of the game.
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Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/15/2006 6:50 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pauper
I like bshugg's ideas, but I think he's dancing around the one that would make a speed 4 figure absolutely viable:
Stand Fast: This figure earns victory points for occupying an opponent's victory area as if it were occupying its own victory area.
/slaps self/
This is an amazing idea. Brilliantly simple in execution and revolutionary in application.
Dave
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Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 02/15/2006 10:55 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pauper
Stand Fast: This figure earns victory points for occupying an opponent's victory area as if it were occupying its own victory area.
Wow, Awesome. This alone with the Dwarven Honor Guard as proposed might just work. This would be a great twist.... dang you for putting my shoemaker out of a job!!! [:D] | |
Champion of Remorhaz, and the Mighty Goblin Frog Riders | |
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Moonglow
Sneak
56 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 2:41 AM |
| quote:
Here are a couple ways for a speed 4 beater to be somewhat more playable:
1) Cost 36, Speed 4, Level 8, 80 hp, AC 23, Melee Attack +14 (40 magic)
At this point, he's kind of a Speed 8 beater with slow melee attack. You double move to base an enemy with it and force them to tangle with it. If they don't, they gamble with a 40 damage AoO. This guy also has good damage output via double move + snake's swiftness, or via charging.
2) Cost 36, Speed 4, Level 8, 80 hp, AC 22, Melee Attack +14/+9 (15 magic), Ranged Attack +13 (10 magic).
Although this guy doesn't have the ability to move very far late in a game for a key kill, a group of them can inflict a lot of punishment in the two rounds *before* engagement. In fact, since he doesn't need to double move twice before engagement, these guys sometimes cause the engagement to happen one round later than usual, which would be an interesting twist to engagement strategies.
(That's the conservative version of the ranged attack. You could potentially go as high as 15 magic on the ranged attack or give it a +18 on the ranged attack bonus, since it doesn't have any other special abilities.)
3) Cost 40, Speed 4, Level 8, 80 hp, AC 22, Melee Attack +14/+9 (15 magic), Breath Weapon [][] (Replaces attacks: line 12; 20 acid damage; DC 16).
Lines are money, baby. Well, lines are points in the bank, but you get my point.
All of those are good, really good. In fact, not knowing how pieces are costed and going by gut feel only, I would say they are all quite a bit underpriced... Or am I wrong? Is any of these pieces realistic? I would play all of them! | |
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| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 3:01 AM |
| I think the prices are close, but probably need a bit of tweaking. (Note that the last one costs 40.)
These aren't game-breaking creatures, though. My assumption is that they're Humanoid, so they don't have any immunities. They're not fearless, and their level is playable, but not fantastic. They don't have Cleave, Conceal, Blind-Fight, DR, or any resistances. They can still be paralyzed, stunned, or Deadly Rended. They're just plain vanilla beaters with a very slight offensive twist, and they're still hurt tactically by having Speed 4.
Compare the second one to a Warforged Hero (which we know isn't tier-1 ... at least not right now). It's my attempt to make a more playable version of the Warforged Hero's base stats. It also sacrifices the Warforged Hero's DR, immunities and movement ability. Also compare the second one to a Duergar Champ, and then realize you're paying 3 more poitns for it. Compare the third one to a Red Samurai. | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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Moonglow
Sneak
56 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 3:09 AM |
| Well, then we pretty much have an authoroty suggesting the cost of speed 4 as far as I see it. The third one states that a speed drop from 8 to 4 costs 8 AC and a breath weapon. The second one states that speed 6 to 4 costs a ranged attack +13(10) (extra HP and AC covered by 3 pt and conceal/cleave). The first one... Well, I think it is too good...
If it was me I would add about 4-6 points cost to each of them, but that is just my gut talking.
All above "statements" taken lightly, not as solid facts of corse. [:)] | |
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 02/16/2006 6:24 AM |
| | I just hope WotC keeps ptting the LG faction down[:p]. Let the paladin lovers rpg them. | |
They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
To rip the boosters. To count the minis spilled out before you, and to hear the indifference of the women... | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/16/2006 8:24 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
Compare the second one to a Warforged Hero (which we know isn't tier-1 ... at least not right now).
You dirty rotten son of a rat! [:p] Is this some kind of hint!
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 8:56 AM |
| Interesting. The sand Giant does none of what we all think an LG hitter needs (other than have enough staying power that it can hit over and over for a little damage). No ranged to make opponents come, no big single attack, none of the cool abilities (AC nerfing is nice, but you gotta hurt someone in the game).
Are we all off, or are the designers? | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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SlantyEyedWeasel
Sneak
87 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 9:05 AM |
| What about something like this...
Cost 50 pts
80 hps
ac 22
+16/+12 (20 magic/15 magic)
speed 4
spell resistance
DR 5
[] Taunt swift action (all enemy units who have not yet activated this round and are able attack this creature must do so, DC20 negates)
This would definately make up for a lack of speed by forcing enemy units to come to you for at least one round. Fast enemies with no ranged attacks would be forced to base this creature, in which case you would be using your enemies' speed against him... | |
Completed Trades (4)cyderakk, Ihawk, Wayne, Fenris | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 1:32 PM |
| I've said it 100 times.
I'd like to see a Dwarf Champion with the girdle and hammer...
I know it is not I.P.-worthy, but damnit, its classic LG, baby.
You judge the point cost.
I would hope in the low 40s.
Northern Dwarf Champion
Level:10
HP: 75
AC: 21
Move: 4
Melee: +14/+9 (10 + 5 sonic)
Ranged: +11 (10, + Empowered Soundburst, range 6)
SA:
Stable Footing,
Stagger.
Empowered Soundburst (Radius 2, 10 Sonic Damage, Save vs Stun, DC17)
Giant Slayer: +10 Damage vs Giants
Note that he does not actually Stagger when charging - its just the ability I want that has already been named.
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Let it be. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 2:05 PM |
| Couldn't this be something as simple as the Battle Plate Marshall having two Grant Dwarf Move Actions?
Even with just one GDMA, If a tough dwarf beater came out with at least speed five... the GDMA would do a lot to get this unit in base to base with the enemy.
quote:
Hill Dwarf Hero - Cost 36 - LG
Save = 11
Speed = 5
HP = 75
AC = 22
Attack = +15/+10 (15 Magic)
Ranged = Masterwork Tanglefoot bag [ ] (range = 6)
Special Abilities:
Blindfight
Cleave
Tanglefoot bag (range = 6, target is entangled, DC=16)
Even with speed 5, four of these guys make a solid warband with the Battle Plate Marshall that leaves enough points to add filler.
With the BPM, if they swing at units that have already activated, they can hit harder.
Essentially, it's an LG version of the Duergar Champ.
The Tanglefoot Bag is there to disrupt Gith Monks or Frenzied Berserkers or whatnot. They could buy you a round or two to "focus fire" on a single enemy, and try to get ahead.
With GDMA, it's possible for these guys to move up to 15" in a round and base something (or 10" and attack), which should provide a lot of options from round 2 forward.
The warband is essentially fearless as long as the BPM is alive and commanding it.
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Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 02/16/2006 2:33 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Moonglow
Well, then we pretty much have an authoroty suggesting the cost of speed 4 as far as I see it.
Lol. I'm not an authority. I don't have any behind-the-curtain info from R&D on how things are costed. Those estimates are based purely on comparisons to existing tier-1 creatures.
quote:
The third one states that a speed drop from 8 to 4 costs 8 AC and a breath weapon.
And 5 damage per swing. (And other subtle stuff based on the fact that CE has different tools than LG.)
quote:
The second one states that speed 6 to 4 costs a ranged attack +13(10) (extra HP and AC covered by 3 pt and conceal/cleave).
You're missing some details: A Duergar also has a higher level, higher attack bonuses, and immunities to paralysis and poison. (As well as other faction-based stuff.) | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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Moonglow
Sneak
56 Posts
| | 02/17/2006 5:40 AM |
| Yeah, you are right, my estimates were a bit oversimplified.
Sadly, the only one I think is realistic is #3 and with a single breath weapon. #1 hits too hard for low cost and is out of flavor for LG and the second one adds a fairly powerful ranged attack to LG, something that they never had as far as I know. The Dwarf raider with Slow attack and a few so-so mages is the best offered so far (well, apart from Couatl). But I have my hopes for the rumored ballista though!
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Dyex
Skirmisher
39 Posts
| | 06/24/2006 3:53 AM |
| So much talk about Dwarfs, are we cursed to never see another Gnome or Halfling in Full-Plate again?. If Dwarfs almost always move speed 4 (and that seem to be a problem), than is it outright pointless have a speed 3 minis?
If I could have a Mini I think I would like this
Celestial Gnome Paladin -Cost 23-
Save = 7
Speed = 3
Hp = 50
AC = 23
Melee = +9(10)magic
Range = +7(5)
Special Abilities:
Fearless
Smite Evil XXX
Lay on hands 10
Resist 5 Acid,Cold,Electricity
Spell Resistance
DR
Sidestep (just for fun)
Do you this 3 speed is playable? | |
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| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
6650 Posts
| | 06/24/2006 8:29 AM |
| How about this one, as a LG beater? It's a modified version of my old Field Commander (if any of you saw this before).
LG 41pts (Humanoid-Human)
Lvl: 8
HP: 95
AC: 23
SP: 4
MELEE: +15/+10 (10 magic + 5 fire)
RANGED: +8 (10)
AB: Bold, Chaos Slayer +10, Cleave, Resist Fire 10
What's been dropped?
52pts
Cmnd: 5
MELEE: 5 added
AB: Willing to Follow, Bold was added
CFX: If this character makes its Morale (not Rally) check from being reduced to half HPs all Allies gain +5 melee damage.
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Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
Champion of a Medium Dog & then a Darkenbeast , Raistlin Majere, Nightmare WDQ25/60, Warduke WD60/60,
Anti-Champion of Guns, "Knight of Bugbears", and Joke Champion of Venger.
Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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KuH
Warrior
293 Posts
| | 06/24/2006 9:08 AM |
| Another way to dramatically compensate for Speed 4 issues is to use the existing 'Scout' special ability. How about:
Dwarven Patrol Leader
Humanoid (Dwarf)
Commander 0
LG
35 points
Lvl: 9
HP: 45
AC: 23
Spd: 4
Melee: +11/+6 (10 magic)
Scout
Phalanx Fighting
Willing to Follow
Leader's Pride (fearless when adjacent to follower)
Commander Effect: up to three followers of type dwarf and level 8 or lower may set up adjacent to Patrol Leader; followers of type dwarf gain morale save +4 | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 06/24/2006 9:21 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by KuH
Another way to dramatically compensate for Speed 4 issues is to use the existing 'Scout' special ability.
This would definitely appeal to one of my D&D players, his primary character right now is a dwarven ranger/fighter.quote:
How about:
Dwarven Patrol Leader
Humanoid (Dwarf)
Commander 0
LG
35 points
Lvl: 9
HP: 45
AC: 23
Spd: 4
Melee: +11/+6 (10 magic)
Scout
Phalanx Fighting
Willing to Follow
Leader's Pride (fearless when adjacent to follower)
Commander Effect: up to three followers of type dwarf and level 8 or lower may set up adjacent to Patrol Leader; followers of type dwarf gain morale save +4
So this commander effect is kinda like a "grant dwarves scout" ability? Cool. And, for the gnome and halfling lovers out there, it would work for them too. In particular, I think it would work well for halflings, given their RPG tendencies toward sneakiness and what not. Very nice solution to the speed problem. Give them a big head start.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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