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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
    
 | | 02/23/2006 3:52 AM |
| Hi all,
I felt inspired by Krush's recent request for feedback and advice on commanders. He got some good replies from people about commanders they like, but because of the nature of the request (what do you like to use), it tended more towards sentimental favorites over tips on picking good commanders or what to look for in a skirmish-worthy commander.
With that in mind, and with the recent War Drums list giving us more than several new commanders to consider, I thought I'd start a thread on selecting good commanders and examining what makes a commander viable in a tournament environment.
1. What's a Commander For?
This question should be the first one you ask. Step back and before you ask what stats a commander needs, ask what you need the commander for.
1. Commanders are there to boost your initiative rolls.
2. Commanders are there to boost your morale checks.
3. Commanders are necessary to rally routing troops.
4. Commanders can use their commander effects to benefit the followers in your warband.
4a. As an adjunct to point 4, certain commanders are necessary to build a particular warband (i.e. they are necessary to break given warband building rules and pull in out-of-faction figures)
4b. Commanders can also be there to provide tech. As a general rule, many commanders also double as tech pieces (Couatl, Dark Naga, Cleric of Order, etc.) and they benefit your warband through this tech.
With the move to War Drums, it's time to toss out several old reasons for the existence or use of commanders:
-Commanders were required to give all figures full speed
-Commanders were required to negate the rushing disabilities (i.e. out of command figs must generally rush and attack the nearest figure)
So, understanding what a commander gives you, ask yourself this next question:
2. Do I need a commander?
Yes, this is a question you need to ask. Some people are trying out quad Helmed Horrors and quad Blues, for instance. No commander required.
Pre-War Drums, this wasn't viable because a commander was necessary to give your figures full speed. Without one, the Helmed Horrors and Blues were moving at spd 2! Not very viable.
However, post-War Drums, you no longer need a commander to move at your listed speed. Let's look at the quad HH build a little and our Raisons D'etre for a commander.
Reason 1 (init rolls): By not having a cmdr, you do miss out on init bonuses.
Reason 2 (morale checks): This reason doesn't exist for a quad HH band. HHs are fearless and Blues die from one hit. So you will never need to make a morale check.
Reason 3 (to rally): Likewise for reason 3. A quad HH band will never need to rally since it never routs.
Reason 4 (cmdr effects): This reason is highly variable and dependent on your warband. In this warband example, I argue that you lose more by chasing a good existing commander effect than you do by forgoing a commander altogether.
I'll explain a little later on about building your warband around a commander or assigning a commander around your warband. In this case, what commander effect really benefits you? Do you gain more from adding say an Urthok for his +2 to hit bonus, when you lose the offense of one HH? Since your band doesn't require Reason 2 or 3, can you justify a commander solely for reason 1 and 4. Not really. Moreover, adding a squishy commander in this instance introduces vulnerabilities to your band that didn't exist before. Now you have a figure that can rout. Now you have the uncertainty of morale and rally checks. You have a figure that dies much quicker and thus awards your opponent points faster.
This example is here to make warband builders think. Don't always assume you need a commander. Often times you do. But first ask, "what's my commander for?" If you run a fearless band with high hp units, then you might not need a commander. Or you might not need a commander with a high rating (since Reason 2 doesn't exist for you). This is the rationale for building Couatl based bands with Couatls as the sole commander.
This point segues into my next point.
3. Two Ways To Build With Commanders: Building Around A Commander Effect or Fitting a Commander to the Band
So when building your warband, you can generally go about it two ways. In the first way, you usually see a commander effect you really like and then build a warband around it. An example of this is the Nentyar Hunter. Her commander effect lets you get additional ranged attack attempts from archers. So to support this effect, you need to add archers to your warband. In this way, you create a warband expressly to support Reason 4, or the commander effect.
The second way in which you might build a warband is to go with the figures first. You start with a general theme: fast chaotic beaters, point denial, spellcasters, a titan build. Then you choose a commander that best supports that build.
Let's look at the titan build for example. The classic example is LSD. The rest of your warband is then built to support what the LSD does. With an aggressive LSD band, you would add Barb Mercs to take advantage of the paralysis breath and Mialee to magic weapon the LSD, since it's your main tank and beater. Your victory is also predicated on your LSD being able to move at full speed and choosing any target to attack. With the majority of your chances riding on the one LSD, you also must improve its durability and ensure that you can move first if necessary. Understanding those requirements, you start looking at the Raisons D'etre for a commander. In this warband you need:
To ensure your titan does not rout! So you need to make your morale and rally checks.
To ensure you can move first if you must. So you need to win init.
To make your titan better. So you need a commander effect or tech from your commander that supports your titan.
There are lots of commanders that can fit the bill. The Cleric of Dol Arrah meets all those criteria. She adds +7 to morale checks. She adds +7 to init rolls. And she can heal the LSD with 2 cure critical wounds spells. Others also work well, such as the Cleric of Dol Arrah (+5 morale checks, +5 init, tech to improve the AC and saves of the LSD).
4. Why Building Around the Commander Effect Fails More Often Than Building Around the Band
Okay, so we've looked rather generally at the two methods of fitting a commander to a warband. New players often get mesmerized by commander effects. The Dark Traveler, Nentyar Hunter, and Red Wizard are great examples of commanders with really cool commander effects that just beg to be built around. The problems with building a band around this though are many:
1) Commanders with great effects are priced really high; you pay extra for the effect so that leaves you with less points to build a better band.
2) When you support a commander effect with a figure, you look at the figure's ability to benefit from the effect first, rather than looking at the figure's durability and individual viability. A Frenzied Berserker is a great piece, but doesn't support the Nentyar's CFX. The Half-Elf Bow Initiate is considerably less viable than the FB, but because you've locked yourself into the Nentyar and her effect, you end up choosing the HEBI instead.
3) When your commander dies, so does the effectiveness of the rest of your band. You've obviously optimized your band to take advantage of the effect, rather than picking pieces that can stand on their own. So when the commander goes, so does the glue that holds the band's offense together.
If I could caution new players to do one thing, it is to go ahead and play fun bands built around commander effects, but try to understand what happens if you take away that commander. What will you do if your commander dies? What can your other pieces do?
5. Commander Survivability
So let's assume you are trying to choose a commander to support a band you've been kicking around. You've decided to ditch building a band around a single commander effect. So now you're going with a general theme - melee. You've decided heavy hitting CG beaters are what you want to play with. A warforged barbarian, a wemic barbarian, and a goliath barbarian. A crow shaman to add some more offense.
Now, it's time to pick a commander. You already know a commander is there to lend init roll bonuses, morale check bonuses, and hopefully a good commander effect or tech to improve the rest of your band. You also want to make sure your commander can survive long enough to impart these benefits for the entirety of the match or as long as possible.
So in general, you want to look for the best commander ratings and effects at the lowest cost but that still gives you a commander with great survivability. Consider this when looking at:
Cost: Cheaper is better. Go with less here so you can add a better beater.
Commander Rating (Init): Shoot for CR 4. Most tier 1 warbands try to go into battle with a commander rating of 4. Going below this number means you tend to lose initiative more often than not. Going above means you'll win init more often than not. Avoid CRs of 1 and 2.
Commander Rating (morale checks): Aside from winning init, your rating also improves your morale checks. Again, 4 is a good number to shoot for. But this depends on the saves of the figures in your band. I tend to like my chances with morale check bonuses of around +13 or higher. Any lower than that I feel I rout too often. That means if I play CG, I never go lower than commander rating 4. Even then, it's not an ideal situation, because my Goliaths (save 6) still only get +10 on their morale checks. But if I play LE, I have a little more wiggle-room. Most of my beaters in LE are save 10, so I don't hurt as much from going with a Dark Naga (rating 3) as opposed to a Trog Captain (rating 5). Depending on faction and your need to win inits, you can avoid lower CRs or not.
Commander Effect: Be sure your commander effect is benefiting your warband. Don't add a commander who won't help your troops. The Bladesinger helps because she gives all your figures a bonus to hit after they move. The GFD does not because none of your humanoid hitters are animals.
HP: Don't get trapped into thinking your commander must have 65 hp. This is the magic number for melee units and should be observed for hitters in nearly all instances. The rationale is this: You don't want to get morale checked in one hit. When Frenzieds, Orc Champs (under command of an Eye), and Ogre Ravagers were king, 65+ hp was a must. The Aspect of Kord and Marut still mean 65 is important. But that's only if you anticipate being hit and hit often. Your commander is not a front-line fighter. For a commander, the Tiefling proved you could get by with 25 hp pre-Angelfire. Post-Angelfire, I see 45 hp as the necessary threshold. Here are my reasons why: Wizard Tactician and Rikka. Both can hit your commander from anywhere on the board, regardless of how well you hide your commander. If the WT can see your commander or Rikka is within 8 of your commander, you can pretty much guarantee that your commander will be hit for 15 or 20 dmg. 45 hp lets you avoid that crucial morale check from either attack.
Save/Lvl: You want high. If you have only the one commander, try to hit lvl 8 or more. You don't want your commander to rout. But at the same time, remember that ideally you'll play it so your commander never gets hit.
Attack, Damage: Pretty much irrelevant. Unless you are choosing a fighting commander, attack and damage don't need to factor into your equation.
The reason why I caution players to think about using commanders with high level, attack, damage, and offensive capaibilities is that most fighting commanders are costly. You pay dearly for a commander that can contribute offensively.
6. Fighting Commanders (i.e. Commanders who fight)
However, here is one caveat to picking a cheap and non-combative commander. If you anticipate long games or feel like your games (for whatever reason) tend to go into late rounds, then you might want to pick a commander who can pull his own weight. That's because by a round 9 or 10, most of your main offense will be gone. And in that case, if you've survived that long, then you're likely going to need your commander to pick up the slack to pull off a victory. In those cases, you want a beefier commander.
Keep in mind that those commanders that can contribute in a fight and handle a few hits are rare and expensive. Orog Warlord is among the beefiest around, and he costs 71. Ryld is similarly strong, and he costs 55. The GFD costs 50. Soth costs 98. Of course, these all also have very high commander ratings and pretty good commander effects in the right band. If you must fight with your commander, I recommend picking one of those.
But understand that good players will swarm and kill your fighting commander, no matter how strong. So if your gambit is to commit your fighting commander early, as with an Eye of Gruumsh, then make sure you have a secondary commander. One who stays back and lends her commander rating to morale checks and init rolls. Currently, I don't think any faction but CE can and should go the dual commander rout. It's simply too expensive and buys you less benefit than choosing a semi-sturdy commander and another hitter.
So, I am getting tired. And this started out simple. I would list some good commanders for new players to try and why they were good.
I also want to dispel the myth that a commander with less than 65 hp sucks. You really need to look at cost to hp ratio more than just the hp itself. Yes, the Lion of Talisid is too expensive for its given hp. But if it were 10-15 points cheaper, I dare say it could be a good commander. So don't just look at hp.
Anyway, I hope new players will find this useful. I hope veteran players don't scoff and moreover, I hope they can contribute so we can get a good dialogue going about effective commanders. If someone can pick up the torch and list some good commanders and why, that'd be great for new players to see.
Thanks for reading. | |
Champion of Neogi
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LeClaire
Warrior
225 Posts
| | 02/23/2006 4:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
... The Cleric of Dol Arrah meets all those criteria. She adds +7 to morale checks. She adds +7 to init rolls. And she can heal the LSD with 2 cure critical wounds spells. Others also work well, such as the Cleric of Dol Arrah (+5 morale checks, +5 init, tech to improve the AC and saves of the LSD).
Clearly you meant the Cleric of Order. I too get all of those LG clerics mixed up. [)]
Very interesting article. | |
It is I, LeClaire!
So we have to champion something? Alright, I pick the mighty Flumph! | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/23/2006 9:42 AM |
| Very nice article. Thanks for the contribution.
I think a piece of good advice to newer players is to avoid commanders with lots of fluff and tricks. They look impressive (for example, the Balor), but against a field of skilled players, they're not going to give you the return on your investment that you're hoping for.
This doesn't mean that you have to look for commanders with minimal effects. But, it does mean that you have to carefully consider why you're picking one commander instead of another.
There are excellent reasons, for instance, to choose Ryld over the Tiefling Captain for Chaotic Evil. But, you have to make sure that the particular band you're building (and the kinds of bands you expect to face) will make it advantageous for you to spend those extra 34 points on Ryld.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 02/23/2006 10:19 AM |
| Great article, Feathers!
You may want to stress in the Initiative part that when deciding whether you need a commander or not, you should ask if there's a certain map or map side that may be particularly detrimental to your warband (Quad HH on Dragon Shrine, for instance).
In any case, this belongs in the toolkit! | |
Rhane
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Aramus
Warrior
181 Posts
| | 02/23/2006 10:25 AM |
| | Very nice post feathers | |
Play and have fun, this hobby is an escape from the harsh realities of life | |
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 02/23/2006 10:38 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Feathers
....
I also want to dispel the myth that a commander with less than 65 hp sucks. You really need to look at cost to hp ratio more than just the hp itself. Yes, the Lion of Talisid is too expensive for its given hp. But if it were 10-15 points cheaper, I dare say it could be a good commander. So don't just look at hp.
Thanks for reading.
Very nice article, thanks for writing it.ΖD]
I agree that with the speed-2/rush rules gone. Commanders don't need to be past the 65hp barrier.
Pre-wardrums, if your one & only commander could be routed in a single hit. That made commander assasination a serious risk to your entire warband. But without the speed:2 rule. A fragile commander is just a risk to the commander. The rest of the warband won't fall apart if that commander routs. Just don't use them to command Iron Golems. [)]
quote:
Originally posted by rhane
In any case, this belongs in the toolkit!
I second that. | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/23/2006 10:42 AM |
| | I am not sure its wise to run low-hp commanders any more. There are lots of way to punish opponents for running weak commanders, and the introduction of so many morale save inducing pieces in this set makes it even worse. Do you really want to be minus a commander if you are going up against the Warpriest of Moradin or the Khumat? I certainly do not... | |
I am not gone. | |
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 02/23/2006 10:59 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
I am not sure its wise to run low-hp commanders any more. There are lots of way to punish opponents for running weak commanders, and the introduction of so many morale save inducing pieces in this set makes it even worse. Do you really want to be minus a commander if you are going up against the Warpriest of Moradin or the Khumat? I certainly do not...
I'm not sure Feathers was suggesting people run low HP (less than 65hp?) commanders. That commanders generally don't enter the fray of melee until a late endgame allows for more flexibility on selecting commanders which don't meet the 65HP mark. At least, this is how I read it.
Great article Feathers, and I also think it belongs in the toolkit. It was very educational.
edit: I mistunderstood the context of your post, Doubt. [:I] | |
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doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/23/2006 11:03 AM |
| I was refering more to Xaos's response then Feather's original article, which I think was good.
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I am not gone. | |
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LeClaire
Warrior
225 Posts
| | 02/23/2006 12:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Do you really want to be minus a commander if you are going up against the Warpriest of Moradin or the Khumat? I certainly do not...
Generally, no. However if my warband contained mainly fearless and/or independent creatures... Quite possibly, yes. Especially if I made him pay a relatively high price of the squishing of my squishy commander. | |
It is I, LeClaire!
So we have to champion something? Alright, I pick the mighty Flumph! | |
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Balrog
Sneak
169 Posts
| | 02/23/2006 8:50 PM |
| | excellent article ! | |
I <3 Orcs.... what does that say about me?
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Krush
Commander
3769 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 2:30 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by rhane
Great article, Feathers!
You may want to stress in the Initiative part that when deciding whether you need a commander or not, you should ask if there's a certain map or map side that may be particularly detrimental to your warband (Quad HH on Dragon Shrine, for instance).
In any case, this belongs in the toolkit!
Hear hear! First off my regards to Feathers for moi giving him the inspiration. Secondly, initative is the most important part of the current game. It does not matter what skill level what your skill level(maybe it does)but overall, it can make or break a match.
I have had a run of unfortunate run of bad dice (endless it seems) and it is bound to change.
Back to the reply at hand, map choice is critical but Commander int is important as well, I think for me personaly a combination of both is probably the best. It is most difficult to plan ahead when the map your playing on can be several different choices and left in the dark.
Futhermore a moot point. It really boils down to how well the dice are your friends.
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Zyla
Underboss
1191 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 2:55 AM |
| The Balor is a rather good commander if you dont play it like a commander, thats the problem people tend to have, its more of a 95 pt CE beatstick thats independant and not effected by commander effects.
Even IF you pick a commander you need to have a good supporting cast for that commander, thats a general rule of warband building, and your commander will also effect how you build the warband.
If you use a commander with a low raiting (such as a Couatl or Balor) without a backup commander, you have to plan your warband around many types of maps as odds are you wont be playing on the map you select most of the time, which is referd to as a swiss type warband (neither strong or weak in any specific point)
If you use a commander with a high rating (like Ryld Argith), you can then make a warband designed around a specific map, but you have to make sure you can cover that very small chance of loosing map initiative and make sure it will be effective on other typs of maps as well. For example you may have the warband designed for Hellspike Prison, but how will the warband do on the teleporter map? | |
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Feathers
Underboss
1140 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 2:57 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Krush
Futhermore a moot point. It really boils down to how well the dice are your friends.
Krush, something to think about. Dice will always be a variable. It's what makes this game interesting and keeps the Derrys, Dagnis, Trieds, Kiddocs, and Fenrises in the world from always beating us 100% of the time.
However, players that play often in tournaments always gravitate towards figures and bands that minimize randomness. The less able you are to accurately predict an outcome of a given action, the more likely you are to be at the mercy of the dice. Therefore, top-ranked players look to use pieces that guarantee an outcome regardless of dice. This is what makes Fearless pieces, auto-dmg pieces, high save and high atk bonuses so valuable and highly costed in DDM.
Take for instance the Frenzied Berserker. Even if you feel you have a propensity for rolling 1s on morale checks, it still doesn't matter with the FB, because she is Fearless and never has to make morale checks. Or take the Marut for instance as an attacker. At +20 to hit, you'll only miss on a 1 against most of the competitive field. Even a 2, 3, or 4 is still success against the Helmed Horror. So that's a 5% miss chance always. Very good players go into matches armed with this knowledge and thus can make informed decisions during battles. Consider in contrast a player who takes a Draegloth into battle against a Helmed Horror. You now miss on a roll of 1 to 9. So you are no longer virtually guaranteed a hit. And a miss at the wrong time could screw you.
Long story short: If you feel dice are against you, try this experiment. Look for pieces that take the dice out of the equation as much as possible. Then build a warband around that. Choose nothing below Cmdr Rating 7 on inits. Choose nothing but Fearless units and attack bonuses of +18 or higher. Play Ryld, Cleric of Dol Arrah, and Battleplate Marshal for awhile and field Frenzied Berserkers and Maruts. Minimize your vulnerability to randomness.
And now, back to our regularly scheduled thread. [)] | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/24/2006 3:06 AM |
| I thought I had too much time on my hands recently ... geesh. [)] When selecting a commander, I ask myself these simple questions:
Morale Utility: Will it be likely to be alive and helpful when the morale checks come?
Combat Utility: How effective is it in my warband if I disregard the commander aspects of it?
Opportunity Cost: How many points can I save by downgrading it, and how would I spend those points?
Those questions are really all there is to it. | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 5:12 AM |
| Feathers' article makes a lot of good points, which is what an article should do. It should have some impact on your thinking, and explains things pretty well.
However. I should note this article is much more fun to read if you mentally 'read it aloud' in either John Madden's voice, or Strong Bad's (of Homestar Runner fame).
Try it; you'll like it. | |
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