| Author | Messages | |
YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
    
 | | 02/23/2006 2:16 PM |
| quote:
Number: 01
Name: Arcane Ballista
Faction: LG
Cost: 48
Level: 8
Speed: 4
AC: 18
Hit Points: 65
Melee: +16 (25 magic)
Ranged:
Type: Large Construct
Special: Fearless; Flaming Bolt [] (Ranged damage +10 fire); Freezing Bolt [] (Ranged damage +10 cold); Lightning Sphere [] (Replaces turn; sight; radius 2; 20 electricity damage; DC 17); Large Target Bonus (Attack +4 and damage +10 against large or larger enemies). No Reach (Can't make attacks of opportunity). Slow Ranged Attack (Can't make a ranged attack and move in the same turn); Spellcaster Crew (Can attack only if an allied spellcaster is adjacent)
Rarity: R
Pros: Accurate, long range damage for LG and lots of it. If a large foe shows itself early in the game, it's likely to take 45 damage from a special bolt.
Cons: An opponent just has to base it to stop it from firing. The spellcaster requirement is tough. It does not have precise shot. It can't move and fire. How do you get it off your starting tile, but still fire it before it's based and it's spellcaster is dead?
I don't know who's going to risk using this. Maybe in the days of tiles, it might have been used by a point-denial band? A guy like Derry probably has the best chance of figuring out how to use something like this... based on some of his point-denial success in the past.
quote:
Number: 02
Name: Arcanix Guard
Faction: LG
Cost: 9
Level: 4
Speed: 4
AC: 18
Hit Points: 35
Melee: +8 (10 magic)
Ranged:
Type: Humanoid (Human)
Special: Smite the Resistant +10 [] (Melee damage +10 against enemies with Spell Resistance or Spell Resistance All)
Rarity: C
Pros: 35HP and magic damage on a lowish cost unit. Some units in the set have Spell Resistance.
Cons: Speed 4 with only moderate AC. May have a hard time getting his points "back" and could be an easy kill since speed 4 means he's taking the first hit most times. Lowish level and making a check after 20 damage is risky.
quote:
Number: 03
Name: Aspect of Moradin
Faction: LG
Cost: 93
Commander Rating: 4
Level: 10
Speed: 6
AC: 23
Hit Points: 130
Melee: +15/+10 (20 magic)
Ranged: +12, range 6 (20 magic)
Type: Large Outsider (Dwarf)
Commander FX: Dwarf followers gain Stone Lord 5 (Melee damage +5 against an enemy in a square bordered by a wall)
Special: Cleave; Giant Bane (Melee attack +2 and melee damage +10 against Giant enemies); Melee Reach 2; Stone Lord 5 (Melee damage +5 against an enemy in a square bordered by a wall)
Rarity: R
Pros: Accurate, fairly hard hitting, and has a high damage, unlimited range 6' attack to extend his threat range. Should hit for 25 magic damage a lot of the time, and there are 4 giants in this set to hit for 30-35 magic damage. In sealed, he works as a nearly unkillable commander who makes his morale save 75% of the time. If I pulled this guy in Sealed, I'd have a hard time not choosing him.
Cons: Damage output is only mediocre considering he costs half your warband. He's not that fast to be able to support a spread out warband, and it's possible that an opponent can work on the other 107 points (and get assault points) while minimizing contact with the Aspect of Moradin.
quote:
Number: 04
Name: Axe Soldier
Faction: LG
Cost: 13
Level: 4
Speed: 4
AC: 20
Hit Points: 40
Melee: +8 (10 magic)
Type: Humanoid (Human)
Special: Cleave; Close-Order Fighter +5 (Melee damage +5 whenever 2 or more allies are adjacent to this creature). Squad Activation (All creatures in your warband named Axe Soldier must activate as a single activation)
Rarity: C
Pros: Good HP for cost. Does magic damage. Provides a sort of restricted/limited "tactics". By the time it gets to combat, it'll probably have opportunities to do 15 damage. Decent AC for cost.
Cons: Slow, and fielding two of them costs 26pts. Fielding one of them diminishes the ROI. Lowish level, morale save after 20 damage.
quote:
Number: 05
Name: Combat Medic
Faction: LG
Cost: 28
Level: 7
Speed: 4
AC: 20
Hit Points: 35
Melee: +4 (5)
Type: Humanoid (Human)
Special: Sacred Healing [][] (Replaces attacks; All living creatures within 6 squares heal 10 hp, no effect on nonliving creatures); Turn Undead 7 []
Spells: 1st-cure light wounds (unlimited uses) (touch; heal 5hp); 3rd-searing light [] (sight 10 damage, or 20 damage against Undead); 4th-cure critical wounds [][] (touch; heal 30 hp)
Rarity: U
Pros: Great counter to things like a "first turn fireball" as long as your allied pieces stay on the board. Good save for cost. Nice turn undead. Searing light is useful. Heals like the CoDA. There's a pretty good chance you can get your points worth out of this gal in sealed, but she stays a secondary option.
Cons: You get very little offensive output out of 28pts. Speed four is not good for a touch based support caster. This girl is a juicy, 28pt target.
quote:
Number: 06
Name: Elemental Wall
Faction: LG
Cost: 33
Level: 6
Speed: 6
AC: 20
Hit Points: 65
Melee: +9 (10)
Type: Large Elemental
Special: Fearless; Melee Reach 2; Wall Transformation [][] (Replaces attacks: Each square of this creatures space becomes a wall in all respects until the start of this creature's next turn)
Rarity: U
Pros: The Wall Transformation looks like it could be very useful in the hands of a skilled player, especially towards the end of a match to preserve points. 65 Fearless HP is always nice. If paired with the Aspect of Moradin, it's possible that the Wall could allow Moradin to do more damage and keep him from being surrounded.
Cons: Low damage. No DR. Slow for a large base. Doesn't burrow. Could be tough to use to it's maximum potential.
quote:
Number: 07
Name: Large Bronze Dragon
Faction: LG
Cost: 65
Level: 10
Speed: F7
AC: 20
Hit Points: 100
Melee: +10/+5/+5 (15/10/10)
Type: Large Dragon
Special: Flight; Breath Weapon [] (Replaces attacks; line 12; 20 electricity damage; DC 18); Breath Weapon [] (Replaces attacks; cone; affected creatures with 40 or fewer hp make a morale save); Camaraderie (On its turn, each commander in your warband may reroll 1 missed attack roll); Immune Electricity
Rarity: R
Pros: Moderate Damage, Flight, and great at clearning fodder. Good save. May pay off with a hard hitting commander in sealed.
Cons: That's a lot of points to spend for clearing fodder.
quote:
Number: 08
Name: Sacred Watcher
Faction: LG
Cost: 18
Level: 5
Speed: F6
AC: 21
Hit Points: 30
Melee: +10 (10)
Type: Undead
Special: Flight; Incorporeal; Fearless; Evil Undead Slayer (Damage +10 against evil Undead enemies)
Rarity: U
Pros: Incorporeal is always good, and combined with a High AC, it's even better. Fearless undead (duh). Highly maneuverable. In sealed, most units in this set can't deal 30 damage in one hit. Accurate when going after lower cost enemies. Will beat most foes 1-1 that cost 18 or less points. A lot of low cost units have a very low probability of damaging the Sacred Watcher at all. This unit deserves strong consideration in Sealed as one of those secondary picks that gets assault points or kills enemy assault point grabbers. If you get one of these, and don't play it, make sure you have a great reason.
Cons: Doesn't do magic damage. Can be turned by the Combat Medic in sealed. A few units in the set do 30 damage... so they get something like a 20%-45% chance of killing the Sacred Watcher each time they swing.
quote:
Number: 09
Name: Sand Giant
Faction: LG
Cost: 79
Level: 10
Speed: 8
AC: 23
Hit Points: 140
Melee: +19/+14 (15)
Type: Large Giant
Special: Cleave; Double Damage from Cold; Immune Fire; Melee Reach 2; Sand Blaster [] (Replaces attacks; cone; -4 AC; DC 22)
Rarity: R
Pros: May work in a point-denial build in sealed if you have no other choice. Solid in almost every stat... HP, Save, AC, Attack Bonus, Special abilities...
Cons: ...But HORRIBLE damage for it's cost. It doesn't need to hit as accurately as it is hitting for Sealed, where the best AC in the set is the 24AC WarTroll. There aren't very many units that it will need more than a 2 to hit with it's first attack... but it will suffer against DR or RoE from the Night Hag. Sand blaster just lowers a bunch of ACs that you don't need to lower for this giant to hit them.
quote:
Number: 10
Name: Shieldwall Soldier
Faction: LG
Cost: 7
Level: 3
Speed: 4
AC: 22
Hit Points: 20
Melee: +5 (5)
Type: Humanoid (Human)
Special: Close-Order Fighter +5 (Melee damage +5 whenever 2 or more allies are adjacent to this creature); Phalanx Fighting (+2 AC when adjacent to an ally with Phalanx Fighting)
Rarity: C
Pros: Cheapest unit yet for LG with Phalanx Fighting. Great AC. A better player than me figures out an obscure way to use these guys with a Couatl, CoDA and a few Balistas to own everyone...
Cons: But I can't do it so, who cares? With a save of 3, a successful save against a fireball will still probably route this guy... and in constructed, it can't keep up with a Couatl. Hey look, my shield wall is BEHIND my warband! I don't like it.
quote:
Number: 11
Name: Warforged Bodyguard
Faction: LG
Cost: 32
Level: 6
Speed: 7
AC: 17
Hit Points: 55
Melee: +10/+5 (10 magic)
Type: Construct (Living Construct)
Special: Bodyguard (If an adjacent creature in your warband would take damage from an attack, this creature can take the damage instead); Bold (Has Fearless when under command); Living Construct (Has only Immune Level Drain, Paralysis, Poison, Sleep); Reinforced 5 (Takes 5 less damage from melee and ranged attacks. This does not reduce damage taken with the Bodyguard ability)
Rarity: U
Pros: Bold, with Reinforced 5 and 55HP should translate into enough HP to make this a survivable choice... and it's pretty fast for a LG warforged. Bodyguard is a nice ability that adds flexibility, especially in sealed where you don't have to choose between this figure and a Gith Monk or Justice Archon. I'd say worth considering in sealed as a secondary option if you have room for it. It can help sit on an Assault tile and either stay alive or keep a friend alive.
Cons: Again, it's a point-denial piece that doesn't hit very hard or accurately... lowish AC won't help it too much eating 40 (35) points of damage from a Hill Giant Barbarian, and it will fail some saves vs area spells too.
quote:
Number: 12
Name: Warforged Captain
Faction: LG
Cost: 46
Commander Rating: 4
Level: 6
Speed: 4
AC: 19
Hit Points: 50
Melee: +12/+7 (15 magic)
Type: Construct (Living Construct)
Commander FX: Choose 1 enemy creature at the start of the skirmish. Followers get melee damage +5 against that enemy
Special: Construct Lock (If this creature's attack roll against a Construct enemy would otherwise be a critical hit, that enemy skips its next turn); DR 5 (Takes 5 less damage from nonmagical melee and ranged attacks); Fearless; Giant Bane (Melee attack +2 and melee damage +10 against Giant enemies); Living Construct (Has only Immune Level Drain, Paralysis, Poison, Sleep)
Rarity: U
Pros: Not bad if you pull it in sealed vs a band with a Titan build that uses a Giant for the Titan... the Commander Effect and Giant Bane is nasty. Fearless. Decent attacks and command rating. You don't really want to go after a giant right away, but, towards the end of a match, it's nice to be able to move in and finish one off.
Also, there are a lot of titan builds in this Sealed, so you'll have a chance to designate a 60+ point foe for the extra 5 damage.
Cons: Only 50 HP and takes full damage from magic weapons. Could easily die in a single round. There are a lot of scenarios where this commander could take 20 damage from an area spell, then take 30 damage and simply be gone without contributing anything at all. Be careful if you use him.
quote:
Number: 13
Name: Warforged Scout
Faction: LG
Cost: 8
Level: 5
Speed: 6
AC: 17
Hit Points: 35
Melee: +5/+5 (5)
Type: Construct (Living Construct)
Special: Hide; Living Construct (Has only Immune Level Drain, Paralysis, Poison, Sleep); Scout
Rarity: U
Pros: Scout... relatively fast. Could be good at getting It can hide. EDIT- For 8 points, and able to start closer to a victory area on the other half of the map, it should pay for itself on turn one. On some maps, with shared victory areas in the center, you may be able to start directly on a victory area for your team.
Cons: Low accuracy. Low damage. Low save. Reasonably low AC. On some maps, scouting doesn't give you that much advantage since, when I last read the rule for maps, you still had to start on a victory area on your half of the map.
quote:
Number: 14
Name: Warpriest of Moradin
Faction: LG
Cost: 49
Commander Rating: 6
Level: 12
Speed: 4
AC: 19
Hit Points: 55
Melee: +10 (15 magic)
Ranged: +7, range 6 (15 magic)
Type: Humanoid (Dwarf)
Commander FX: Moradin's War Cry (Each out of command enemy within 6 squares that takes damage must make an immediate morale save unless that damage already forces one)
Spells:2nd-deific vengeance [][] (range 6; 10 damage, or 20 damage to Undead; DC 14); divine protection [] (your warband; +1 AC, save +1); 3rd-close wounds [] (immediate; range 6; a target that would be reduced to 0 or fewer hp instead has 5 hp remaining); 4th-neutralize poison [][] (touch; remove Poison, and target creature gains Immune Poison)
Rarity: U
Pros: Commander effect could be huge in Sealed, especially if you can easily stun, disable, or kill an enemy commander. Good support spells and a few decent short range damage options.
Cons: Slow. HP/Cost ratio not that great. Most warbands that don't rely on a good commander use units like Helmed Horrors, Frenzied Berserkers, or other units that don't rely on a morale save. In constructed, wouldn't you almost always rather choose a PDK over this commander?
---
So out of all the LG options, I think the best of the bunch are:
- Sacred Watcher (tile grabber/defender)
- Aspect of Moradin (titan)
- Elemental Wall (tactical, tough... sort of beater, but not)
- Warforged Bodyguard (tactical, tough... sort of beater, but not)
- Combat Medic (good support for it's points)
- Warforged Scout (good assault grabber)
LG didn't add any new high quality LG beaters that I'm seeing, but one or two of the tactical or support pieces can make a difference in Sealed with a careful mindset.
The Sacred Watcher looks like a harder hitting version of the Cursed Spirit... lacking in the Curse Aura, but with solid AC combined with Incorporeal. It could be a piece that shows up in competitive play in it's odd point-range that is often ignored.
EDIT: Added the Warforged scout. I read it's number as it's point cost initially, and I'm still not 100% clear on the map/scout rules, since I haven't read the updated rules yet. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/23/2006 2:24 PM |
| I disagree with you about the Warforged Scout. The Warforged Scout is one of the best pieces in the set and an obvious choice for Construct LG bands who want to garauntee first turn tile points. I would always choose this piece over a Timber Wolf, for example, both because of its surviability, the garauntee you can get tile points with it, and because its hide makes it less vulnerable to ranged pot shots.
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I am not gone. | |
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 02/23/2006 2:28 PM |
|
Nice breakdown, YRM_DM, but the Warforged Scout is worth only 8pts, not 13, as you mention in its "cons". And why would it be a problem if an 18pt Sacred Watcher came to beat up on it? It's now the best option for LG to grap Assault points, not just a fallback in sealed, IMO.
edit: you're way too fast, Doubt. [)] | |
Completed trades: arbados
Completed 23 trades on Hordelings www.hordelings.com - http://www.hordelings.com/directory/profile.php?user_id=429 | |
|
YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 02/23/2006 2:53 PM |
| I copied and pasted from another listing on the WF Scout... for 8pts, it becomes a better option. I read it's set number instead of it's cost. Sorry.
Also, when I last read scouting, you could only start on victory areas on your side of the map. Did that change?
Granted, some maps, especially ones with shared victory areas in the center, it won't matter.
Anyway, I edited my post to include the scout. (I still love the ghost as a tile grabber and killer of tile grabbers)
| |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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roonechr
Sergeant
604 Posts
Kansas City, MO
| | 02/23/2006 3:10 PM |
| Good job all around. I agree that the Warforged Scout is almost a must have in LG bands. With 35 hp and Hide he should be able to sit on a victory area a good while to allow a slow warband to engage. It may even make sense at 8 points to put two in and sit them on two different victory areas.
The Arcane Ballista is definitely a piece for Epic play and won’t see much use in 200. I dread pulling one in sealed.
Compare the Axe Soldier to the Dwarf Axefighter and you will see that he is better even if you don't get to use his special abilities at all.
The Elemental Wall is certainly tech and not a beater. Used well it could be worth its cost in gold but used poorly it is a point sink and nothing else.
Like everyone else, I’m still waiting for the new, competitive, Dragons. I hope the Large Copper, Medium Silver, Large Deep, and Large Bronze aren't them because they're horrible. | |
Champion Of Hydras | |
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roonechr
Sergeant
604 Posts
Kansas City, MO
| | 02/23/2006 3:14 PM |
| quote:
Also, when I last read scouting, you could only start on victory areas on your side of the map. Did that change?
I think that is sill the case. However, even starting on victory areas on your side of the map will often afford you a better opportunity to get to one of your own victory areas in one turn. | |
Champion Of Hydras | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 02/23/2006 3:29 PM |
| quote:
Compare the Axe Soldier to the Dwarf Axefighter and you will see that he is better even if you don't get to use his special abilities at all.
True, but the Axefighter was how many sets ago? And they don't get used.
When a guy is slow, and has 40HP, and fireballs and cones are out there that do 20, you know that the Save of 4 is going to be a liability in a lot of situations.
If you have a Combat Medic, Commander 7, Couatl, and a bunch of Axe Soldiers, it could be interesting... but I don't think I'd be happy to use one in Sealed... or competitive play.
Consider that 2 or 3 Death Slaads are fairly common in competitive play and I just don't see what kind of role the Axe Soldier fills. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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roonechr
Sergeant
604 Posts
Kansas City, MO
| | 02/23/2006 5:36 PM |
| | I don't think that they do have a place in the current meta, but if it should shift back to low AC high damage they might. However, my point was basically that perhaps LG is getting the same things that they used to get but a little bit better each time. Perhaps eventually something with this flavor will be competitive. | |
Champion Of Hydras | |
|
Foo Fighter
Warrior
188 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 7:49 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by YRM_DM
quote:
Compare the Axe Soldier to the Dwarf Axefighter and you will see that he is better even if you don't get to use his special abilities at all.
True, but the Axefighter was how many sets ago? And they don't get used.
When a guy is slow, and has 40HP, and fireballs and cones are out there that do 20, you know that the Save of 4 is going to be a liability in a lot of situations.
My assumption is that the new LG fodder is purposly designed to work with either the Village Priest or the Cleric of Dol Amroth.
The VP gives guard/militia named units +4 atk and +4 save bumping the Arcanix Guard to an attack of +12 and save of +8, doing 10 damage for a cost of 9 pts.
Now the CoDA does some wonderful things for the Shieldwall Soldier (fighter/soldier named units).
If you take two Shieldwall Soldiers as fodder with the CoDA you spend 14pts. and get two 20HP pieces that become fearless due to the CoDA.
They also get +2 AC if they stay together, and another +2 AC if they stick with the CoDA bumping them up to AC 26. Finally when adjacent they hit for additional damage...up to +10.
It sounds good on paper, I don't know if it's better than taking 3 Hill Dwarfs or 4 Man-at-arms but it's interesting to me.
The Axe Soldier with the CoDA becomes an AC 22, 40HP fearless 13 pointer that could do up to 15 damage. Again sorta interesting but might not be that great in action.
~Foo Fighter~ | |
A Repo man is ALWAYS intense. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 8:47 AM |
| | Put me in the Warforged Scout and probably Sacred Watcher camp. That's about it. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
Minneapolis/St. Paul area
Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 8:55 AM |
| Maybe there's too much chatter going on, so I'm missing it, but where's all the love for the Sacred Watcher? I mean, LG just got a Cursed Spirit!
With 30HP, AC21 and Incorporeal, this piece will be an uber-annoyance to your opponent. Heck, run two of em and keep spell casters and ranged units tied up all game. And, if the mephling proves useful to LG, then the Sacred Watcher will be his homey as a fireball target. I just love this piece for LG, and if it weren't for the Warforged Scout and little drummer orc, it would be my pick for one of the best skirmish pieces in the set. Cool sculpt to boot. | |
Completed trades: arbados
Completed 23 trades on Hordelings www.hordelings.com - http://www.hordelings.com/directory/profile.php?user_id=429 | |
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Foo Fighter
Warrior
188 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 9:07 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by memphisto
Maybe there's too much chatter going on, so I'm missing it, but where's all the love for the Sacred Watcher? I mean, LG just got a Cursed Spirit!
With 30HP, AC21 and Incorporeal, this piece will be an uber-annoyance to your opponent. Heck, run two of em and keep spell casters and ranged units tied up all game. And, if the mephling proves useful to LG, then the Sacred Watcher will be his homey as a fireball target. I just love this piece for LG, and if it weren't for the Warforged Scout and little drummer orc, it would be my pick for one of the best skirmish pieces in the set. Cool sculpt to boot.
It's also noteworthy that not only is the Sacred Watcher the LG Cursed Spirit, but it's also a Cursed Spirit Slayer with it's additional damage against evil Undead.
~Foo Fighter~ | |
A Repo man is ALWAYS intense. | |
| 
Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 11:16 AM |
| Yeah, I like the Sacred Watcher quite a bit. I am just having trouble coming up with builds that I would like to use it in...
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I am not gone. | |
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 12:22 PM |
| | I am a large fan of the Aspect in this set. Pin a unit to the wall and dish the damage out. Also really excited about the Scouter and Phalanx Guy (name's gone) | |
My Trading Thread | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 3:13 PM |
| | You're talking about the Aspect of Moradin... not the Aspect of Hextor. Right? | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 3:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
The Sacred Watcher is so much better than the Ghostly Consort, it is sickening.
My opinion on the Sacred Watcher is going to deal entirely with how I can fit it into a warband ... it has the potential, but I'm not sure where its home will be. Alusair maybe?
I agree that building with it isn't readily apparent. Mephling *sounds* good, but who knows if it's realistic. As a flanker with JA's or Ulmo might be nice. It's also cheap enough,IMO, to simply include as a back-up points grabber, spell/ranged-nerfer, durable screener, fodder killer and squishy commander killer. For 18pts his utility is his(her?) versatility. It's going to be tough for an opponent to devote the resources necessary to kill this thing expediently enough to justify the 18pts it's worth. Love it. | |
Completed trades: arbados
Completed 23 trades on Hordelings www.hordelings.com - http://www.hordelings.com/directory/profile.php?user_id=429 | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 3:26 PM |
| Yeah, its a good piece, I am just having difficulty fitting it into any builds. Its also a tough piece to build around. Drat.
Besides, I am suspecting that the War Drummer is going to push Cursed Spirits out of common use in Chaotic Evil builds. | |
I am not gone. | |
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memphisto
Warrior
213 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 3:51 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Yeah, its a good piece, I am just having difficulty fitting it into any builds. Its also a tough piece to build around. Drat.
Besides, I am suspecting that the War Drummer is going to push Cursed Spirits out of common use in Chaotic Evil builds.
If I have the choice between a wardrummer and a cursed spirit, it's wardrummer the vast majority of the time, yeah. But if I want to lower saves --not just moral-- and have a boost to my own troops saves, then I'm still stuck with a drummer x 2, or a drummer and a CS. So I think the CS isn't quite dead (undead, dead again, whatever) yet.
It's still going to take some time to find good builds with Sacred Watcher though, I agree... | |
Completed trades: arbados
Completed 23 trades on Hordelings www.hordelings.com - http://www.hordelings.com/directory/profile.php?user_id=429 | |
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NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 3:59 PM |
| The Sacred Watcher is a great support piece in any band with LGs world-renowned Sneak Attacks - Skullclan, Ulmo, and the Slayer of Domiel. Makes getting their powerful Sneak Attacks off a lot easier, expecially for Mr. Slowpoke the Skullclan.
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/24/2006 4:04 PM |
| | I think two Wardrummers isn't really a workable concept in 200 point. I will definitely be grabbing two of them for my epic builds though. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| |
Goldmoon
Sergeant
986 Posts
| | 02/25/2006 7:49 AM |
|
Other that some good tech pieces. LG dont really get any beater for this set....pretty disappointed. | |
"HA! Activate take 10 and you cant hit me."
"Once I start, I will not flater."
"BLOOD make the grass grow!" | |
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 02/25/2006 1:33 PM |
| | Sacred Watcher might also be interesting in conjunction with the sword archon. Cheap, survivable units attacking at +10 (+12 with flank) for 15 damage might have some legs. Sword Archon, six sacred watchers and a standardbearer or celestial dire badger. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 4:48 PM |
| | The only problem there is that the Sacred Watchers can be turned... but most of the pieces that can do it don't get much play. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Zyla
Underboss
1191 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 7:34 PM |
| | I thinking of a warband use for the Large Bronze, that fear cone is tempting to experiment with :) | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 7:37 PM |
| Yeah, soften up a few foes with the line breath, then route a bunch of lower cost or wounded foes with the fear breath.
The dragon has decent damage vs low AC foes.
Still, I'm not expecting it to have great success to the point where it's part of a highly competitive warband. It'd be cool if someone figures out a way to do it though. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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elder_basilisk
Sergeant
410 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 8:11 PM |
| It might be competitive in epic if run with a bunch of non-epic aspects of moradin, sword archons, and a couple PDKs to round out the band. Lightning or fear breath through the sword archons (and fear coning through the archons for the PDKs) and granting every other figure in your warband a chance to reroll missed attacks could be pretty nice.
quote:
Originally posted by YRM_DM
Yeah, soften up a few foes with the line breath, then route a bunch of lower cost or wounded foes with the fear breath.
The dragon has decent damage vs low AC foes.
Still, I'm not expecting it to have great success to the point where it's part of a highly competitive warband. It'd be cool if someone figures out a way to do it though.
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Zyla
Underboss
1191 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 8:19 PM |
| | To make a competative warband you have to look at the warband as a whole, not the individual figures that make it up, the Large Bronze might be replacing a Marut in my LG warbands for experimenting. | |
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LeClaire
Warrior
225 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 11:05 PM |
| I’m just amused by the reversal of the usual way of things. Here we have a follower (Large Bronze Dragon) helping its commanders fight better.
“Get in there and fight, ‘boss’. I don’t want to hear any of that guff about how in your gran-pappies time the ‘followers’ were the ones out front. Next you’ll be wanting a share of the loot. Now shut up and bleed fer me!”
What a typical dragon.
Maybe we have a use for a few Merc Sgt.'s now... at least they're already used to following orders. =) | |
It is I, LeClaire!
So we have to champion something? Alright, I pick the mighty Flumph! | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 11:47 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by LeClaire
I’m just amused by the reversal of the usual way of things. Here we have a follower (Large Bronze Dragon) helping its commanders fight better.
“Get in there and fight, ‘boss’. I don’t want to hear any of that guff about how in your gran-pappies time the ‘followers’ were the ones out front. Next you’ll be wanting a share of the loot. Now shut up and bleed fer me!”
What a typical dragon.
Maybe we have a use for a few Merc Sgt.'s now... at least they're already used to following orders. =)
Heh. There are a few tough commanders in sealed that might be happy to take another swing at a foe.
Imagine if you're moving in for the kill in the last rounds of a match against a Hill Giant with your semi-fragile Warforged Captain, and you need your hit to kill it (BUT ROLL A 1).
At that point, having the Dragon pays off.
I think it's just one of those things that may help out in sealed a time or two if the Dragon is paired with a semi-beefy commander.
(like if the Inspired Lieutenant misses her smite attack) | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 2:04 PM |
| My thoughts:
Arcane Ballista - abso-damn-lutely. Keep in mind that 'spellcaster' in DDM terms does not mean 'arcane spellcaster'. A CoDA or Village Priest (or Combat Medic) can power it just fine, thank you. Heck, if you must use an arcane caster, you might even find a use for the old Warmage now. Or even a Mounted Paladin. LG 'caster' bands just got more interesting.
I expect one of the most common questions that's likely to come out of the first week of Wardrums is 'does the Arcane Ballista's Lightning Sphere ability count as an attack?'
Arcanix Guard - A Lawful Good figure with nearly a 4:1 HP/cost ratio and a better than 1:1 damage/cost ratio? Where have you been all my life?
Sadly, I think the AG would be best suited for a 100-point warband, but that's no longer a supported format in the post-Wardrums era. And in a 12-figure environment, a couple of AGs backed by a Village Priest secondary commander would make interesting anti-Iron Golem tech, but in eight figs you're only going to bother with that in a titan build. Not a horrible fig, but he'll be perceived as too specialized to get general play, I'm thinking.
Aspect of Moradin - would be better if existing epic figs weren't already driving classic 500-point giants like the Fomorian and Snurre out of the metagame. It'd be hard not to play him in Sealed, but his utility in Constructed is probably more limited than it would otherwise appear at first glance.
Axe Soldier - the fodder of choice for any band with a CoDA; the CoDA and all the Axe Soldiers can move on a player's turn, the CoDA makes the Soldiers Fearless and can heal them nearly back to full from near death, while enough 10 magic swings will eventually bring Cleave into play. I think this guy will appear in more post-release constructed bands than the Arcanix Guard will.
Combat Medic - I think Gunthar would be licking his chops at a chance to first-turn fireball a Combat Medic; depending on commander, you've got a decent chance of routing her off the map right away, racking up that juicy 28 points. She's cheaper than the CoDA, but I'm not sure she has the CoDA's survivability, so it may end up being a wash.
Elemental Wall - the thing I like about the Wall is the subtle effect of its Wall Transformation on enemy movement and targetting; you can move diagonally past enemy creatures, but not past walls, and you can't draw LoS through a wall the way you can through a creature. In addition, there doesn't seem to be any indication that the creature stops being a creature, so it would still get AoOs from enemies that try to move past it. (If that's not the case, then the Wall takes a bit of a hit in utility in my book.)
One thing to keep in mind, both for this guy and the Aspect of Moradin, is that Wardrums includes an outdoor map. That doesn't completely eliminate the utility of these figs, but it does mean you should be ready to be more circumspect on how you use those figures in an outdoor setting.
Large Bronze Dragon - Cries out for greater magic weapon, and maybe a Merc Sarge secondary commander as well. Notice something about the two breath weapons - they basically have the same effect (morale save for those figs with 40 or less HP is nearly equivalent to 20 damage); this fig, like the PDK, is going to draw a lot of attention, and like the PDK, will be disappointing - morale is not something that most warband builders neglect when constructing their warbands, so I'd be surprised if the fear breath was very effective outside of the sealed environment.
Sacred Watcher - a LG Incorporeal fig, which is interesting all by itself. The Evil Undead Slayer ability isn't as limited as you might think, as there are only two non-evil undead in the game: this one, and the Undying Soldier in CG. A very nice potential fodder piece in Epic versus Soth/Beholder style bands.
Sand Giant - wasn't all that impressed with the preview, still not all that impressed. Might be an interesting call in Sealed if you have no better damaging option, but I get the feeling that a titan with 15 non-magic damage is going to be hard to win with, even in sealed.
Shieldwall Soldier - not nearly as good a call for CoDA bands as the Axe Soldier; since damage is still king in constructed, making a 20 HP fig Fearless doesn't really do you all that much good, except against those poor suckers who still want to try and get something out of the PDK/Large Copper/etc. A red-herring fig.
Warforged Bodyguard - the Slayer of Domiel's new best friend. I so hope to pull one of these this coming weekend, if only to be able to try out that combo within a warband. Bold makes all the difference, and might provoke more play of Improved Countersong in enemy warbands if he catches on.
This is the sleeper in LG for this set.
Warforged Captain - will be much better in Epic than in regular Constructed, I think - my guess is that even after you've chosen the enemy for the WC's CFX, the followers in question only get the bonus damage if they're within six of the WC (it is a CE, after all). However, combine him with a Trumpet Archon, and all is forgiven.
Warforged Scout - Meh. Unless they've changed the Scout rule, he's not going to be all that useful. Those who say that starting on a nearby victory area will increase your chances of grabbing one of your own victory areas are making two errors:
1) They haven't looked at the maps - take a look at Mithril Mines or Magma Keep and explain how a speed 4 figure can move from one of your enemy's victory areas to one of your own in one turn. You're pretty much stuck with Drow Outpost and the other shared-victory area map as options here.
2) Unlike the Halfling Ranger, who remains a threat to the enemy warband if he's not dealt with, this guy can just be ignored. A tile-grabbing fig with DR can stand next to this guy with impunity, and even a fig with 10 damage and an AC of 17+ has a good chance to drive him away without loss. If you've Scouted with him, the odds that you'll have magic weapon on him are pretty much nil.
People will use him, people will be disappointed, and he'll disappear from the metagame. Maybe not fair, but I can see that's this guy's fate.
Warpriest of Moradin - Oh. My. God. You've looked at this guy, right?
The spells, man, look at the spells. Divine protection. Everybody likes Eberk for this, right? Now you don't need to pack him. Add in an immediate action spell to save the life of one of your figs. Then top it off with the ability to remove poison, which has already been discussed as a mechanic on the rise with the new Wardrums victory conditions.
Add in Commander 6, a cool CFX (though hard to use in LG - might be better to port him into CG via Epic El and pair him with a Voice of Battle), 15 magic damage (solid for LG), and level 12. He's pretty much fearless (morale save on 3+), will save against most spell effects outside of Elminster and his cronies, and thus his 55 HP are a bit better than they appear at first glance.
The only real drawback is speed 4, though pairing him up with the Battleplate Marshall makes for some really interesting all-dwarf and mostly-dwarf warband options:
Warpriest of Moradin (49)
Battleplate Marshall (43)
Dwarf Wizard x2 (42)
Gold Dwarf Soldier x3 (51)
Lantern Bearer (12)
8 activations, 197 points
If your meta is construct-heavy, you could swap out one Wizard for an Artificer as well. Me likey.
An interesting set for my favorite faction, I must say.
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Pauper | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 2:15 PM |
| Nice post Pauper but there is one fatal flaw in your analysis. The Warforged Scout is Speed 6. Not Speed 4. This makes him infinitely more usable.
Jesse | |
I am not gone. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 3:23 PM |
| quote:
Warpriest of Moradin - Oh. My. God. You've looked at this guy, right?
The spells, man, look at the spells. Divine protection. Everybody likes Eberk for this, right? Now you don't need to pack him. Add in an immediate action spell to save the life of one of your figs. Then top it off with the ability to remove poison, which has already been discussed as a mechanic on the rise with the new Wardrums victory conditions.
Add in Commander 6, a cool CFX (though hard to use in LG - might be better to port him into CG via Epic El and pair him with a Voice of Battle), 15 magic damage (solid for LG), and level 12. He's pretty much fearless (morale save on 3+), will save against most spell effects outside of Elminster and his cronies, and thus his 55 HP are a bit better than they appear at first glance.
The only real drawback is speed 4, though pairing him up with the Battleplate Marshall makes for some really interesting all-dwarf and mostly-dwarf warband options:
Warpriest of Moradin (49)
Battleplate Marshall (43)
Dwarf Wizard x2 (42)
Gold Dwarf Soldier x3 (51)
Lantern Bearer (12)
8 activations, 197 points
I think there are some flaws in the Warpriest of Moradin review.
You're right that he's nearly fearless, and his Close Wounds (great spell!) and Divine Protection are extremely useful.
- Even with DP, his AC is only 20.
- He has 55 HP.
- He doesn't benefit from Grant Dwarf Move Action since he's not a follower...
- In your listed warband, it severely lacks damage, accuracy, and speed, even with Grant Dwarf Move action. Yes, the Gold Dwarf Soldiers hit for 15 magic, and yes, you have multiple slapping hands... but they aren't accurate enough, or tough enough, to serve as your 3 primary hitters.
- The Warpriest and Battleplate Marshall aren't really fighting commanders on the level of even a PDK or Dwarven Defender.
- As soon as the Warpriest is based, he can't cast things like Diefic Vengence.
- Is poison really a problem for Dwarves? They have great saves and reasonably solid HP for cost in most cases (except the Warpriest)
- A band like this gets chewed apart by area effect spells or reliable ranged damage. Imagine taking this band against 2 or more Death Slaad, or Chuuls, or Red Samurai, or Soth/Beholder, or some LSD varient.
- Imagine trying to hit a Marut or Gith monks? Or trying to kill a WarTroll?
And as you said, the Warpriest's commander effect is going to be tough to use. (unless he is mixed with Gith Monks and a YM that work to assassinate the commander via their speed, then have a chance to route enemies with every hit...)
Although, absolutely he can be a big deal in "epic" where you might take out a lone commander and you'd like to force morale checks every round on the titan that's left over.
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Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Pauper
Sergeant
508 Posts
| | 03/01/2006 4:43 PM |
| doubt, I somehow missed his speed 6. Guess I throw out the whole list, eh? [)]
I still think this is going to be a fig that looks better than he plays.
quote:
Originally posted by YRM_DM
You're right that he's nearly fearless, and his Close Wounds (great spell!) and Divine Protection are extremely useful.
- Even with DP, his AC is only 20.
Fair, but I think that's more of a wash than a real drawback - attack bonus and damage are foci for warband-builders, so AC isn't a defense unless it's up around Marut levels, I agree. I don't think a 20 AC is low enough to be a weakness, though.
quote:
- He has 55 HP.
I'm not sure that's a weakness, either, given that he's nearly fearless. In terms of the typical damage breakpoints, there's no real difference between 55 and 60 HP (two hits from a 30, three from a 20, four from a 15). I'll admit that 65 HP would have been better, but not every fig in the game can have 65 HP.
quote:
- He doesn't benefit from Grant Dwarf Move Action since he's not a follower...
I don't know that you'd want him to - you're going to GDMA into the fight, not away from it. Keeping him a bit away from the front line isn't a huge problem, given his spells.
quote:
- In your listed warband, it severely lacks damage, accuracy, and speed, even with Grant Dwarf Move action. Yes, the Gold Dwarf Soldiers hit for 15 magic, and yes, you have multiple slapping hands... but they aren't accurate enough, or tough enough, to serve as your 3 primary hitters.
I disagree on the damage - 15 magic base with a decent chance of adding Retaliate from the Battleplate Marshall is nothing to sneeze at. Attack bonuses are light, even after flanking, but all you really worry about is Iron Golem/Marut style warbands along those lines, IMO - and swapping out a Wizard for an Artificer should fix that.
It's probably not 'tier 1' (whatever that means anymore), but I certainly think it would be the germ of an interesting idea.
quote:
- The Warpriest and Battleplate Marshall aren't really fighting commanders on the level of even a PDK or Dwarven Defender.
I can't speak for the PDK, but the Dwarven Defender has +3 attack, +15 HP, and no bonus to damage over the Battleplate Marshall (BPM). The AC bonus is effectively negated after the Warpriest's divine protection, which also gives the Battleplate a +5 advantage in saving throws. Add in the chance to Retaliate versus the Defender's CFX (which he can't benefit from himself anyway), and I have to disagree that the BPM can't hold his own in a fight, assuming the Dwarven Defender already can.
quote:
- As soon as the Warpriest is based, he can't cast things like Diefic Vengence.
I'd rather have him swinging if based than casting deific vengeance; unless the opponent is Undead, he's guaranteed more damage with at least as good a chance of delivering it. I probably wouldn't even use the spells over his range 6 ranged attack unless the opponent was seriously clustered in (and would thus gain cover and/or firing into melee bonuses).
quote:
- Is poison really a problem for Dwarves? They have great saves and reasonably solid HP for cost in most cases (except the Warpriest)
Given that most poison bands will probably have some degree of Conceal, I'd earmark one neutralize poison for the Lantern Bearer's use. After that, yes, a Dwarf should rarely fail a poison save.
quote:
- A band like this gets chewed apart by area effect spells or reliable ranged damage. Imagine taking this band against 2 or more Death Slaad, or Chuuls, or Red Samurai, or Soth/Beholder, or some LSD varient.
You're kidding, right?
vs Death Slaad - if the Dwarf player gets off his divine protection first, the commanders only fail the chaos hammer on a 1 or 2, and even the fodder has a far better than 50% chance to save. That's 10 damage, easily shoulderable in a band where the fodder packs 40 HP.
vs Chraal (I think you meant Chraal instead of Chuul) - tougher matchup, especially with the greater HP of the Chraal. Current Chraal theory, though, doesn't really prepare the Chraal pilot for a running fight that would take full advantage of his speed edge, and Chraals can be Bigby's slapped.
- vs Red Sam: as with the Death Slaad, even the fodder is unlikely to fail the save vs breath weapon; in addition, the Red Sam's AC14 makes it easy even for the fodder to paste him. His level 9 lowers the odds of Bigby's slap, but that's about the only drawback.
vs. Soth/beholder - another tough matchup, but not insurmountable. I'd actually consider leading with a Dwarf Wizard to give the Soldiers a good chance of getting through the beholder fire - neither Soth nor the beholder is likely to fail the Bigby's slap, even if it gets past the Antimagic Eye.
Vs. LSD - just ignore the dragon. Seriously. Go straight for the Cleric of Order or whatever he's using as a commander, wipe him out, then let the Warpriest's CFX do the rest - and if your opponent tries taking out the Warpriest first, you've still got the BPM to take advantage of his having to activate the LSD as early as possible in engagement rounds. Bigby's slap something other than the dragon, if you can. You probably won't beat a good LSD pilot, but that's the case for most warbands out there, and he's definitely not going to have a walkover on you, not with your great saves and solid damage output.
quote:
- Imagine trying to hit a Marut or Gith monks? Or trying to kill a WarTroll?
For Marut, see the Artificer modifier - you'll know if Marut is a viable fig in your metagame (it is in ours, for instance), so you can make that choice as needed. GDMA is a nice way to deploy him as well.
Gith Monk is a bigger problem, I have to admit, though without the threat of an area effect attack requiring you to GDMA earlier, you might store it up to attempt to rush the Young Master - if you can get in on him quickly enough, you've got a reasonable (though certainly not great) chance of routing him. His Mobility will probably be what costs you the fight, ultimately.
quote:
And as you said, the Warpriest's commander effect is going to be tough to use. (unless he is mixed with Gith Monks and a YM that work to assassinate the commander via their speed, then have a chance to route enemies with every hit...)
Even then it'll be hard - anybody who has ever run a warband with radically differing speeds can attest that it's hard to keep coordination with all your figs. And Warpriest of Moradin/Young Master? That's a lot of points in commanders for Gith Monks, and still no guarantee you'll be able to use the Warpriest's CFX.
quote:
Although, absolutely he can be a big deal in "epic" where you might take out a lone commander and you'd like to force morale checks every round on the titan that's left over.
Yep - I'm already trying to figure out how to fit him in my Epic El build without losing the CoDA; it's possible he's just not good enough to replace the CoDA, though.
I guess the Warpriest will take a bit more thought than I anticipated to use well. Doesn't mean it's a bad fig, though.
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Pauper | |
Champion of the War Wizard of Cormyr | |
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