XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
    
London
 | | 02/25/2006 9:40 AM |
| If it "walls" on an assault point area. Can it score VP's for that round.
I know you can't attack, cast spells at it etc.
And hence you can't heal it.
And I suspect you can't get VP's either. But I could imagine players arguing that they do...[?]
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azuretide
Sergeant
407 Posts
| | 02/25/2006 9:45 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
If it "walls" on an assault point area. Can it score VP's for that round.
I know you can't attack, cast spells at it etc.
And hence you can't heal it.
And I suspect you can't get VP's either. But I could imagine players arguing that they do...[?]
I am also interested in this | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/25/2006 10:16 AM |
| If the figure is on a victory area, then it will score victory points. I don't think the accidental insertion of a wall will change this.
A far more interesting application, in my view, is that you can use this piece to prevent an opponent from getting victory points. The proper insertion of a wall can either completely block a path to a victory area, or cause a diversion of enough squares as to make one unreachable at the listed speed of the victory area grabber.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
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juice
Warrior
175 Posts
| | 02/25/2006 11:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
If it "walls" on an assault point area. Can it score VP's for that round.
I know you can't attack, cast spells at it etc.
And hence you can't heal it.
And I suspect you can't get VP's either. But I could imagine players arguing that they do...[?]
A wall cant score VP. So if an Elemental Wall is a wall in all respects, it cant score VP as well. [:D] | |
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Tactician
Sergeant
888 Posts
| | 02/25/2006 11:45 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by juice
quote:
Originally posted by XAos
If it "walls" on an assault point area. Can it score VP's for that round.
I know you can't attack, cast spells at it etc.
And hence you can't heal it.
And I suspect you can't get VP's either. But I could imagine players arguing that they do...[?]
A wall cant score VP. So if an Elemental Wall is a wall in all respects, it cant score VP as well. [:D]
This does make sense. Hope guy clearifies many of these questions soon. | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 02/25/2006 11:52 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by juice
quote:
Originally posted by XAos
If it "walls" on an assault point area. Can it score VP's for that round.
I know you can't attack, cast spells at it etc.
And hence you can't heal it.
And I suspect you can't get VP's either. But I could imagine players arguing that they do...[?]
A wall cant score VP. So if an Elemental Wall is a wall in all respects, it cant score VP as well. [:D]
this is a very interesting question...where in the rules does it say that a wall can't score victory points? Odviously the question was irrelevent before, since there was never a casep of a wall being a creature as well before.... | |
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XenoZephyr
Underboss
1083 Posts
| | 02/25/2006 12:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by juice
A wall cant score VP. So if an Elemental Wall is a wall in all respects, it cant score VP as well. [:D]
It does not say that the creature is a wall in all aspects, it says that each square of this creature's base becomes a wall in all aspects. It is clearly still a creature and would thus clearly still obtain victory points.
I do like it for the idea of blocking off victory areas though and also noticed that with the Elemental Wall we may finally have to use the squeezing rules. | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/25/2006 1:43 PM |
| It can go either way. We'll need to see the insert/clarifications/rulings.
Each square the creature occupied becomes a wall. Whether that means that those squares lose all properties (difficult terrain, victory area, etc ...) while it is a wall is not clear. I can see a ruling going either way. | |
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11464 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 02/25/2006 2:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XenoZephyr
quote:
Originally posted by juice
A wall cant score VP. So if an Elemental Wall is a wall in all respects, it cant score VP as well. [:D]
It does not say that the creature is a wall in all aspects, it says that each square of this creature's base becomes a wall in all aspects. It is clearly still a creature and would thus clearly still obtain victory points.
I do like it for the idea of blocking off victory areas though and also noticed that with the Elemental Wall we may finally have to use the squeezing rules.
I agree with this assessment. It is still a creature, and can score VP. But, I've been wrong before. | |
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11464 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 02/25/2006 2:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by nycfarmkid
Another question would be, can this figure be attacked once it has turned into a wall? this may sound silly, but we generally are not allowed to attack a wall in DDM. This could make for some interesting point denial options at the end of a game if you could all the sudden wall off your figures and they can't be attacked.
I emphasized "generally", because I think this will be the exception. But you're right, if it can't be attacked while in wall form, that would be the ultimate in point denial. | |
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alepulp
Underboss
1537 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 02/25/2006 2:24 PM |
| | It's still the creature that is a wall - thus is should score VPs. IMHO. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/25/2006 2:40 PM |
| Let me rephrwase what I said before:
When the square becomes a wall, it may lose the characteristic of being a victory area. If so, it is no longer a square for the creature to score points. So, although the creature in the wall might retain the ability to score points, the squares it occupies might no longer be victory areas because they've been changed into walls. | |
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zenthrus
Warlord
5082 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 02/25/2006 3:52 PM |
| | Walls aren't victory point areas. Since the Wall changes the squares it occupies into walls they cease to be Victory Point areas. That's the simplest reading. I imagine that there will be a clarification that the Elemental Wall becomes a Wall (can't attack/be attacked/score VP/etc) while using its special ability. The wording in Scrye implies this but we'll have to see if the wording on the card is identical. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/25/2006 5:18 PM |
| My own guess is that, while the spaces occupied by the figure become walls for the purpose of combat, they do not become walls for the purpose of determining victory areas.
Here's another fun use of these guys: to block exit squares. You could either prevent one of your own pieces from routing off the board, or prevent an enemy piece from routing (though why you'd want to might be a tough one to figure out).
And, suppose you have several of these and you happen to somehow place enough of them on your opponent's starting areas that (for example) a newly spawned Imp doesn't have a place to start, or one of the new Horde Zombies doesn't have a place to start. I'm guessing that the new piece would start in any of the closest legal non-starting-area squares.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 02/25/2006 8:58 PM |
| | Is there a rule that says only certain kinds of squares can be victory areas? | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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nycfarmkid
Underboss
1210 Posts
Wadsworth, OH
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madda
Sergeant
714 Posts
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D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 12:38 AM |
| | I didn't necessarily intend that to be an answer. My question is at least half-serious. | |
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Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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Kithmaker
Commander
3926 Posts
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 1:18 AM |
| Victory areas are defined by the area located on a map so it's simple as that I am guessing for determining what is an appropriate victory area as defined by the floor rules. The area doesn't change because there is suddenly a wall there or not. What is in question is whether the Elemental Wall is still considered a creature/model in play when it uses the Wall Transformation ability. Since it becomes a wall in all respects until the start of this creature's next turn the real clarification we will need is whether it is still actively in play. Since it says specifically "becomes a wall in all respects" is it no longer considered a creature/model and part of the map until the start of it's next turn? Walls don't score victory points, only models do. It could be argued that since a wall doesn't get turns it would have to be still considered a creature even though it can't be attacked or targeted in any way. Quite a confusing little piece. I'm sure we'll get some solid info in the very near future either way. Hopefully before the Release tournament next weekend.
R~ | |
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md3
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 1:52 AM |
| I like the suggestion to block my warbands exit. :)
What about locking your warband into a victory area. | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/26/2006 3:19 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
Is there a rule that says only certain kinds of squares can be victory areas?
HEY! You're not allowed to give rule answers until the middle of next week! You're on vacation! No trying to sneak around it by limiting the answers to hints!
Go rest up, young man. We're going to be POUNDING you with questions starting in the middle of next week, and we want you fresh and ready for the onslaught.
On the other hand, if you were truly asking if we knew of any rules that prevent a wall space from being a victory area, I'd be happy to look. Just hand me a War Drums rule book and I'll search it very closely to see if I can find it ...[)]
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 2:32 PM |
| | Im gonna go with the idea of "its a wall, not an active creature and therefore cant get tile points. | |
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D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 3:04 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
Since it says specifically "becomes a wall in all respects" is it no longer considered a creature/model
Are you sure about that? Does the card really say the creature becomes a wall in all respects? | |
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Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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BudLeiser
Warrior
218 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 3:11 PM |
| | Is guy ALLOWED to give us answer yet? I think we have to wait. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 3:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
Since it says specifically "becomes a wall in all respects" is it no longer considered a creature/model
Are you sure about that? Does the card really say the creature becomes a wall in all respects?
No, I haven't seen the actual card so this would depend on whether the information in Scrye was correct or not. Only someone that has the actual card can say for sure.
R~ | |
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D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 3:42 PM |
| | I'm asking whether the info from Scrye even supports what you're saying. | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 4:28 PM |
| It does say "becomes a wall in all respects" on the spoilers. So you tell me.
R~ | |
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D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 4:48 PM |
| | What becomes a wall in all respects? You're missing the subject of that sentence. it could say "your car becomes a wall in all respects." | |
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Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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XenoZephyr
Underboss
1083 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 5:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
It does say "becomes a wall in all respects" on the spoilers. So you tell me.
R~
I posted this on the very first page of this very thread.
quote:
It does not say that the creature is a wall in all aspects, it says that each square of this creature's base becomes a wall in all aspects. It is clearly still a creature and would thus clearly still obtain victory points.
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Thespian
Sergeant
442 Posts
Lethbridge, Alberta
| | 02/26/2006 5:17 PM |
| It says that the squares are considered walls? That says to me that the squares block all line of sight and line of effect. It doesn't cause the creature to disappear. If he is in the VA, then he gets the points. The creature is still in the area....in whatever form it takes.
My 2cps. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/26/2006 5:35 PM |
| I think it says that the "space" that the figure is in becomes a wall. And, I think that a creature's space is not defined as literally co-extensive with the squares on the map that are occupied by the figure. So, I'm betting that the squares are not considered to be walls even though the spaces on those squares are.
I'm still willing to guess that the victory area requirements are still fulfilled.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 6:19 PM |
| So essentially the space it occupies becomes a wall but if the creature is still a creature then it can still move and attack and is subject to the normal rules of a creature. By the rules it's automatically going to end it's turn inside a wall which is an illegal position. So by using it's Wall Transformation ability because it's making itself illegal by current rules. Like I said it needs some real clarification because it's a confusing piece.
R~ | |
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B.A.Baracus
Skirmisher
39 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 11:06 AM |
| | Lets all hold off on assumtions till we see the rulebook. Then we can decide if this needs clarification. | |
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XenoZephyr
Underboss
1083 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 12:28 PM |
| Yes, I would like to see the actual card and the rulebook, but I do not think that this creature is confusing at all.
I think it is very clear as to what the intend of this creature is and I also believe that the rules support it.
Wall Transformation is a special ability and special abilities are just that, "special". They are exceptions to the rules. The Elemental Wall does not end it's turn in an illegal position because its special ability give it the ability to do that. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/27/2006 3:03 PM |
| Here's how I've imagined the figure all along. It's probably wrong, but that's okay, we're still in speculation mode. I envision this critter from the comics that looks a lot like a living wall. It moves around and hits stuff, and every once in a while, it can use this cool power to make the ground beneath it move up and around it, sealing it off from the outside world. It's as though it's in tune with the rock beneath it.
So, in the DDM game, I see it similarly. It's not like the creature is "in" a wall when it exercises this ability, it's more like there were a 2x2 region on the map where the judge steps in with a Sharpie and draws a Large-sized square around the figure. It's like the figure is encased in thin walls for the duration of the ability.
That's how I'm picturing it.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/27/2006 3:19 PM |
| It seems from Guy's hints that it may work this way:
When in a victory area and using its special ability, the aquares occupied by the creature become wall squares. The creature is still inside that wall. However, as walls block line of sight, etc ... it will be very hard to have an effect on that creature.
Further, from Guy's hints, even though those squares have become walls in all aspects, it retains the victory area conditions. Accordingly, it continues to accumulate victory points while in the squareas marked as victory areas, even when the elemental wall has made those squares into wall squares in all aspects.
I don't think this piece will be that confusing in the long run ... unless we somehow find a way to give it burrow, or deal damage to it during another creature's activations. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 5:09 PM |
| There's a few questions I have at this point. Since it's still a creature can it move once it creates a wall? Obviously it's allowed to end it's turn inside that wall because the duration is until it's next turn even though this would normally be illegal under Abberations rules. No one has specified that it's not illegal for a creature to end it's turn inside a wall under War Drums rules either. I think that is the biggest bit of information I'm wanting to know since for every other creature in the game ending a turn inside a wall is an illegal position. So could it create a wall in each of it's spaces, then move wherever it wants to? Basically making it a moving wall until it's next turn. I'm sure that's not what they intended it to be. Since it's technically inside a wall and it's not incorporeal does that mean it can't move? That would be my guess. Since it's in a wall does that mean incorporeal creatures can attack it through the wall it makes? If an incorporeal creature moves through the wall (and the creature obviously) does it get an attack of opportunity? I would guess no since it would be making that attack through the wall it is in. I understand full well how they were wanting the creature to be but how it is makes me have more questions than not.
R~ | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 10:30 PM |
| how is the creature going to move thru the walls that encase it?
Okay.. so the wall can get tile points. Is there a way to do a complete denial band? just collect tile points first then plant wall after wall in the way. | |
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