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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
    
 | | 02/27/2006 11:54 PM |
| My take on it is that the squares of its base become a wall, but the creature is still inside the wall. It can't attack or be attacked (even by incoporeal creatures) from inside the wall because it doesn't have line of sight to anything, nor does anything have line of sight to it. Similarly, it won't be affected by fireballs, cones, lines, etc.
It can't move after becoming a wall, since it doesn't have burrow or incorporeal or any other such ability.
It's not under command while in the wall (no line of sight, and can't count 6 squares through walls) so if you do something like park it on risky terrain and the damage forces a morale check, you're out of luck (though you can't move.) | |
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md3
Sergeant
702 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 1:07 AM |
| | Hey shouldn't a caster with Disintegrate be able to affect the wall? Just my 2 cents. | |
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Jefftyjeffjeff
Warrior
214 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 2:14 AM |
| I have the card and the Wardrums rules in front of me. The card says:
Wall Transformation [][]
(Replaces attacks: Each square of this creature's space becomes a wall in all respects until the start of this creature's next turn)
The rules glossary has no entry for "wall" or "transformation." Page 27 of the rulebook defines how walls interact with other rules. I'm not going to type it here, except for one sentence: "A creature can't move or make a ranged attack through a wall."
From what I can see, the card doesn't say anything about the creature at all. It only talks about the squares the creature occupies.
The rules don't seem to say anything about existing within a space that contains a wall, although it says incorporeal creatures can't end movement "...inside a wall, or in any other illegal position." implying that ending movement inside a wall is illegal.
An elemental wall can't move, because the space is, in all respects, a wall, which interacts with the wall rules.
The elemental wall is still a creature the whole time. If your elemental wall is in a victory area, it counts for victory points.
I also interpret that you can attack/heal/affect the creature, since it's still a creature occupying the space at all times. It's just that the space itself makes you refer to wall rules instead of clear space rules. So area effects (line, cone, radius) would affect the elemental wall creature, but not creatures behind it.
I think it's a little wonky, but cut and dried if read rigorously. However, a clarification would be good for tournament's sake.
To me, more interesting are the other uses for the elemental wall:
- A well-placed elemental wall redefines the shape of the battlefield space, giving your speed 4 LG grunts time to get to a good position.
- Mobile cover. (The flavor text mentions this.)
- Since command lines have to count around walls, you could block a creature from receiving commander effect.
I'm not clear whether those 33 points are well spent in 200 point fights. In epic though, I'd look real hard at how to use an elemental wall to my advantage.
Using one with an Aspect of Moradin band (Stone Lord commander effect grants dwarf followers +5 melee damage to enemies bordered by a wall) could give you a flanking AND damage bonus. That gives your 17 point gold dwarf soldier +10, 20 magic damage.
Which to my understanding, does not suck. | |
Jeff Quick, Philadelphia
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 02/28/2006 4:07 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Jefftyjeffjeff
except for one sentence: "A creature can't move or make a ranged attack through a wall."
I also interpret that you can attack/heal/affect the creature, since it's still a creature occupying the space at all times. It's just that the space itself makes you refer to wall rules instead of clear space rules. So area effects (line, cone, radius) would affect the elemental wall creature, but not creatures behind it.
How do you reconcile those 2 sentences.?
If the creature is in 4 squares all of which are walls.
Then by the 1st sentence, no attack etc. could be made against the creature. trying to melee the Elemental wall would be exactly like trying to hit a creature in a square on the opposit side of a thin wall, wouldn't it... | |
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Jefftyjeffjeff
Warrior
214 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 10:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
quote:
Originally posted by Jefftyjeffjeff
except for one sentence: "A creature can't move or make a ranged attack through a wall."
I also interpret that you can attack/heal/affect the creature, since it's still a creature occupying the space at all times. It's just that the space itself makes you refer to wall rules instead of clear space rules. So area effects (line, cone, radius) would affect the elemental wall creature, but not creatures behind it.
How do you reconcile those 2 sentences.?
If the creature is in 4 squares all of which are walls.
Then by the 1st sentence, no attack etc. could be made against the creature. trying to melee the Elemental wall would be exactly like trying to hit a creature in a square on the opposit side of a thin wall, wouldn't it...
Magic, friend!
Okay, seriously, a number of intutive readings (such as "treat it like a thin wall") make great sense, but don't align with the written rules. I'm trying to make all the written things cohere.
Maybe it would help to imagine that the "skin" of the elemental remains inches outside the wall, so that you can affect the creature while still following appropriate wall rules.
It's clear that you can't make ranged attacks through a transformed elemental wall space (like if you have selective shot or something). And you can't fly through that square.
In either case however, the creature does not cease to be in play just because the space contains a wall. And since the creature still exists, that creature must interact with the rules the way any creature does.
Note that the rules:
1) don't say anything about how melee attacks interact with walls (which suggests that therefore, no special rules are needed).
2) say only that you can't make a ranged attack through a wall (i.e., line of effect to but not beyond the wall).
3) do go out their way to state that you can't attack incorporeal creatures inside walls (the lack of such specific wording for wall transformation suggests that attacking is still okey-doke).
What I'm proposing appears to be consistent with all the rules as written. Though that doesn't mean I'm right. [:)]
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Jeff Quick, Philadelphia
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 11:30 AM |
| Hey Jeff,
Seems like you've been quiet for a while. Welcome back! Thanx for posting the card text and the stuff from the rulebook.
Anyway, since we're still in speculation mode, here's how I think it will play out. Note, that Guy has never in his life had to post that "rhane is correct", and frequently posts things like "rhane is about as bright as a sack full of wet mice", so, by merely typing this, I'm in effect ensuring that this ISN'T the way it will play out.
- While transformed, the creature will still score victory points. Like Guy said, there's nothing that precludes a wall from being an Assault space, and nothing that says the Elemental Wall is no longer a creature.
- Despite what Jeff said (which is still possibly a valid interpretation), I think that while transformed, the Elemental Wall will be incapable of being the recipient of any affect, attack, or spell. I don't think that any other creature will have LOS/LOE, so they can't target it with a spell or attack. I also feel that any Area Affect ends as soon as it touches the wall. Likewise, Commander Effects and the like are specifically worded to count around walls.
So, there you go...my baseless speculation.
Enjoy. | |
Rhane
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 12:34 PM |
| lol
I hope the intuitive, and least wierd interpretation, is adopted.
The creature becomes a wall; hence is no longer a creature. Full stop.
It'll make life much, much easier. | |
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| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 12:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Balduran I
The creature becomes a wall; hence is no longer a creature. Full stop.
But then you could never activate it again. Creatures activate. Walls don't. If it can't activate, it will never start another turn, and thus it remains a wall forever [:(] | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 12:42 PM |
| Ahhh.
Damnable irrefutable logic there. It's why you do the job.
Now for the fix... hmmmm.... whatever it is, making the fig a wall/creature seems like it would have even more ramifications with the rules. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 1:03 PM |
| I still speculate that an incorporeal creature can attack the Elemental Wall even when it's using the Wall Transformation ability. I've seen done but have never been given direct confirmation that it can happen that incorporeal creatures can attack through walls. Usually it's only thin walls that are attacked through simply because there are no incorporeal creatures with Melee reach. So reaching through a normal sized wall isn't possible as yet. That'd be a mean incorporeal creature that has melee reach and can attack through thick walls. I also speculate that the Elemental Wall cannot perform attacks of opportunity while incased in the wall as it isn't incorporeal itself and can't attack through walls including the one it is in.
R~ | |
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 1:16 PM |
| One fix.
Change:
Wall Transformation [][]
(Replaces attacks: Each square of this creature's space becomes a wall in all respects until the start of this creature's next turn.)
To:
Wall Transformation [][]
(Replaces attacks: Each square of this creature's space becomes a wall in all respects until the end of the next round.)
This does change how the Elemental can be used – it’s less flexible, locked into being a wall for at least an entire round rather than being able to choose to transform back earlier in the next round. It also precludes activating the fig, since the round is over. But this would allow the ruling that “It’s no longer a figure when transformed into a wall, it’s a piece of terrain.” to make sense.
PS. This makes the big assumption that the designers intended it to be only a wall when transformed, not a wall-creature simultaneously. Could be wrong on that.
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 1:34 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
What becomes a wall in all respects? You're missing the subject of that sentence. it could say "your car becomes a wall in all respects."
Now that is thinking outside the box. If I ever win the Championships, I think I'll make a figure with some sort of uber ability that contains the condition "whenever you use this ability, you must send Felagund $1 in US currency." Guess I better start practicing...[:D] | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 1:42 PM |
| This is what I've gleaned from Guyf 'hints'
1) The creature is still a creature, as such it can still move and score victory points after using Wall Transformation.
2) Each square it occupies becomes a wall. This does not cause any problems with the creature occupying an illegal square.
3) Neither line of sight, nor line of effect can be traced to this creature. This has the following effects:
__a) it cannot be subject to melee/ranged attacks, spells, special abilities, or commander effects; except those that have a range of 'warband', or those that are already inflicted upon it, such as poison, spiritual weapon, or Mordenkainens Sword (note that these cannot technically happen since there occur before Wall Transformation is used, or after its effect ends).
__b) it cannot be put under command.
__c) it cannot the nearest ally, nor the nearest enemy.
Thus the following may happen, although not intuitively obvious
1) The creature may use Wall Transformation, and then move. Doing so will provoke no attacks of opportunity. It may not move through and opponents creatures, but may move through allied creatures.
All of this, is of course, my guess, and subject to complete and total annihilation by Guyf [)] | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 1:47 PM |
| | That's about what I understand from Guy also, meaning you have 90% chance of being wrong![:D] Can't wait to judge this on Sunday. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 1:53 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Ack
how is the creature going to move thru the walls that encase it?
Okay.. so the wall can get tile points. Is there a way to do a complete denial band? just collect tile points first then plant wall after wall in the way.
Yep, it boxes itself in. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 1:57 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
I still speculate that an incorporeal creature can attack the Elemental Wall even when it's using the Wall Transformation ability.
It can not. It can pass through walls, but can not perform an action where it "stops" with in a wall. Strangling something through a wall would mean it's "arms" "stopping" in teh wall, for a relatively easy to see example. It also can't operate on both sides of the wall. Basically, it goes Astral (or whatever) to pass through the wall and can't materialize on the Prime Material Plane while "within" the wall. | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 1:58 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Zaukrie
That's about what I understand from Guy also, meaning you have 90% chance of being wrong![:D] Can't wait to judge this on Sunday.
Looks like I'll have to Judge this on Friday. | |
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 2:08 PM |
| | The main problems with the wall+creature (Weature? Crall?) idea are the lack of brevity in explaining it and the lack of it actually contributing anything to the play of the game. The posts here don’t address all the contradictions in the rules that are created if a Crall is declared, and it would take a large number of words to address them sufficiently. And at the end of the day what would it really add to the game? | |
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 2:10 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
I still speculate that an incorporeal creature can attack the Elemental Wall even when it's using the Wall Transformation ability.
I initially disagreed with you on this.
While an incorporeal creature can move through walls it cannot see through them. As such it does not have line of sight to the Wall Elemental even when adjacent, and as such cannot make an attack.
The only problem is that, as far as I can see, there is no requirement when making a melee attack (excluding melee reach), that you actually have to have line of sight to your target. Searched through the aberrations rulebook, the FAQ, the errata, and Guy's page, but nowhere is it stated that you have to have line of sight to make a melee attack. It is stated when using melee reach, but not for a straight adjacent to the enemy melee attack.
I'm sure this is unintended, but there you are. Currently anything can make a straight up, adjacent to the enemy, melee attack against the wall elemental, even when it is a wall.
Edit: The adjacent entry in the new rulebook covers this. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 2:15 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Balduran I
The main problems with the wall+creature (Weature? Crall?) idea are the lack of brevity in explaining it and the lack of it actually contributing anything to the play of the game. The posts here don’t address all the contradictions in the rules that are created if a Crall is declared, and it would take a large number of words to address them sufficiently. And at the end of the day what would it really add to the game?
I agree that there are odd circumstances that occur with this creature. As I stated before the fact that it creates a wall in it's spaces causes it to end it's turn in what would normally be an illegal position by the rules. Obviously it gets around this by it's ability alone but it needs to be clarified.
R~ | |
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Ack
Underboss
1476 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 2:23 PM |
| perhaps including a clarification that you must be able to see the target to swing at him wouldnt be bad.. but havent we beaten to death targetting models when we went thru the smoke map / new rules? You have to be able to see a target to swing at him. In smoke, you need to be adjacent or have Blindsight to hit a target. Those still apply to being in / aroudn the corner of walls.
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 2:24 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by robbdaman
quote:
Originally posted by Balduran I
The main problems with the wall+creature (Weature? Crall?) idea are the lack of brevity in explaining it and the lack of it actually contributing anything to the play of the game. The posts here don’t address all the contradictions in the rules that are created if a Crall is declared, and it would take a large number of words to address them sufficiently. And at the end of the day what would it really add to the game?
I agree that there are odd circumstances that occur with this creature. As I stated before the fact that it creates a wall in it's spaces causes it to end it's turn in what would normally be an illegal position by the rules. Obviously it gets around this by it's ability alone but it needs to be clarified.
R~
But it's not obvious at all. It's worse. Every single line of the rules would have to be gone over and read in the light of something that is BOTH a Creature and a Wall, with an explaination of how it works if it affects either.
This is not a small deal. There is no precident for a Weature in the rules, beause a basic assumption is that something isn't both a figure and a wall (or any map feature really) at the same time. Hence EVERY place that either is mentioned it must be explained which takes precidence in the case of the Weature.
We discuss things here so much that we indeed think things are obvious. But unless something can be written to be explicit to someone who doesn't already know the rules, then it's a bad rule. | |
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Tried
Sergeant
501 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 6:22 PM |
| I don't get the confusion.
Its a wall. Its a creature. So?
It can't attack. It can't be attacked.
It gains immunity (everything). Essentially, anyway.
(kind of like an "amped up" sanctuary spell)
It can score VP. Sure, it may be a wall.
But dammit, its YOUR wall.
And its in a place the enemy doesn't like it.
Because it is temporary, you can create "illegal spaces" where large creatures cannot fit. Cool.
And as far as "Becomes a wall in all respects."
Well, I guess this means that it can't be moved through or grant LOS. It grants "hard cover" to figures with hide. It can allow a diagonally adjacent fig to withdraw from melee with NO aoos if the opponent does not have melee reach. It likes to stand next to Asp/Moraddin's enemies. Like most walls, it fears small children with crayons. (No figure of this type released yet.)
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Let it be. | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 6:38 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum
The only problem is that, as far as I can see, there is no requirement when making a melee attack (excluding melee reach), that you actually have to have line of sight to your target. Searched through the aberrations rulebook, the FAQ, the errata, and Guy's page, but nowhere is it stated that you have to have line of sight to make a melee attack. It is stated when using melee reach, but not for a straight adjacent to the enemy melee attack.
Hmm, you're right. And furthermore, I can't find it in the War Drums rulebook either. In fact, the invisible glossary definition sort of implies that you can attack things that you don't have line of sight to. How else would an invisible creature ever gain Conceal 11, since nothing has line of sight to it? | |
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 6:50 PM |
| | Yeah, so the guys at the table next to me at the prerelease had to look up the rules for squeezing because the elemental wall did his thing in a T-intersection. Have fun with that, Guy. :P | |
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Bert the Troll
Commander
3964 Posts
Adelaide
| | 02/28/2006 6:56 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Benimoto
quote:
Originally posted by Gnolaum
The only problem is that, as far as I can see, there is no requirement when making a melee attack (excluding melee reach), that you actually have to have line of sight to your target. Searched through the aberrations rulebook, the FAQ, the errata, and Guy's page, but nowhere is it stated that you have to have line of sight to make a melee attack. It is stated when using melee reach, but not for a straight adjacent to the enemy melee attack.
Hmm, you're right. And furthermore, I can't find it in the War Drums rulebook either. In fact, the invisible glossary definition sort of implies that you can attack things that you don't have line of sight to. How else would an invisible creature ever gain Conceal 11, since nothing has line of sight to it?
Invsibie/smoke rules all seem to imply that you dont need too see you foe if it is adjecent to strike it. | |
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 7:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Tried
I don't get the confusion.
Its a wall. Its a creature. So?
...
Sure you do. [:)]
Is it the closest creature for targeting? If it can't be targeted, why not? Even if it can't be targeted is it affected by area effects? If not, why not?
The questions go on, and the "why not" is not rhetorical. It doesn't matter what we think, it's how the rules read. If it's both, then where in the rules does it say that a creature can't be targeted just because it is also a wall?
Even a global "Always take the most restrictive aspect of the rules for the fig" e.g. walls don't move, figs move, it can't move, or walls cannot be targeted, figs can be targeted, it can't be targeted, doesn't work. As Guy caught (moving backwards, with the sun in his eyes... man he is good!), walls can't activate.
The concept of a figure simultaneously being both a figure and a piece of terrain simply doesn't exist in the rules. Creating something that is will open a very smelly can of worms. | |
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synecdoche
Warrior
252 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 7:46 PM |
| Doesn't seem that hard to me. The creature is still a creature, its just that the space it is occupying is wall.
Think about this way. What if incorporeal creatures were allowed to end their movement inside wall spaces. No big deal, it just means there is no line-of-sight to the incorporeal creature and no line-of-effect either. Thus, no melee attacks, ranged attacks targeted special abilities or area-of-effect special abilities could affect it. Spells or special abilities with effect "warband" would still work though (for example, Legion's Undeniable Gravity and the Trumpet Archon's peal).
Same thing for the wall. Its still a creature that just so happens to be occupying wall spaces.
-Synecdoche
PS, oh and until the start of its next turn, it cannot move (eg by a GMA or failing a morale check) because, as a large creature, any way it moves it would have to move "through" a wall space, which is illegal. I'm not sure what the result would be if it was a medium sized creature. | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 8:06 PM |
| | Of course half the questions about it moving while it's a wall are already taken care of: The Elemental Wall can't fail a morale check because it's fearless. | |
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 02/28/2006 8:14 PM |
| synecdoche,
Point taken. I'm not saying I can't/don't understand the concept, I'm saying that reading the rules as they now stand no one can draw the conclusions that underpin the concept. Even if we say the fig doesn't become a wall, because it's "space" becomes a wall (a torturous use of language that DDM thankfully lacks now!), a wall is simply not a legal space for a fig to end its turn in. Without some kind of rewrite nobody reading the rules and card would see it the way you're saying, not only because it's such a weird reading of the ability but because the whole concept directly contradicts the legal space rule.
Much easier to say explicitly that the fig becomes a wall for a time, then work out a way for it to 'come out of it' that doesn't contradict yet another rule. | |
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Jefftyjeffjeff
Warrior
214 Posts
| | 03/01/2006 3:06 AM |
| I think I've got it. I knew there was a simple way to put this, and I think this is it.
People seem to want to read this ability like it says, “This creature turns into a wall.” It’s tricky, because the ability is named “Wall Transformation.” But that’s misdirection. It doesn’t transform into a wall. It’s still a creature.
What the ability really says is that you treat the space like a wall. You don't treat the creature like a wall.
So as a creature, it gets attacks of opportunity and victory points, and can be damaged, healed, flanked with, and yes, even loved.
However, if any figure or ability wants to interact with the space this creature is standing in, that figure or ability has to interact with a wall instead of an occupied square.
I think that’s what’s going on. I think it’s about that complicated. If this isn't it, then I am resigned to wait patiently for the official clarification. Thank-you-and-good-night. | |
Jeff Quick, Philadelphia
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Kissmykiester
Sergeant
525 Posts
| | 03/01/2006 3:34 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Jefftyjeffjeff
I think I've got it. I knew there was a simple way to put this, and I think this is it.
People seem to want to read this ability like it says, “This creature turns into a wall.” It’s tricky, because the ability is named “Wall Transformation.” But that’s misdirection. It doesn’t transform into a wall. It’s still a creature.
What the ability really says is that you treat the space like a wall. You don't treat the creature like a wall.
So as a creature, it gets attacks of opportunity and victory points, and can be damaged, healed, flanked with, and yes, even loved.
However, if any figure or ability wants to interact with the space this creature is standing in, that figure or ability has to interact with a wall instead of an occupied square.
I think that’s what’s going on. I think it’s about that complicated. If this isn't it, then I am resigned to wait patiently for the official clarification. Thank-you-and-good-night.
Jeff is right you know. I think we're over complicating it. | |
Vassal Tournament Constructed Group#
1 & 2-Champion
"You are, what you do, when it counts".
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Sucessful Trade - Pan(2), Lexander (2) Trilistria (1) | |
| DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 03/01/2006 3:48 AM |
| | I think there's being way too much thought being put into this. | |
Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
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rilos
Skirmisher
34 Posts
| | 03/01/2006 3:59 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Balduran I
Even if we say the fig doesn't become a wall, because it's "space" becomes a wall (a torturous use of language that DDM thankfully lacks now!), a wall is simply not a legal space for a fig to end its turn in.
The rules say that you cannot move through a wall and that incorporeal creatures cannot end their movement inside a wall, not that creature cannot end their turn inside a wall.
Wall transformation happens either after movement, so the creature ended its movement in a space which wasn't a wall, or before movement so the creature cannot simply move until its next turn.
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 03/01/2006 7:18 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Bert the Troll
Invsibie/smoke rules all seem to imply that you dont need too see you foe if it is adjecent to strike it.
But definition of "adjascent" is;
adjacent: Occupying a square next to this space (including diagonally). A creature is not adjacent to creatures behind walls.
So the elemental wall is not "adjascent" to any other figures.
That is the aberration rulebook definition of adjascent, and I suppose wardrums could have changed it...? | |
Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Fry
Underboss
1724 Posts
| | 03/01/2006 7:24 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Jefftyjeffjeff
What the ability really says is that you treat the space like a wall. You don't treat the creature like a wall.
I agree with this...
quote:
So as a creature, it gets attacks of opportunity and victory points, and can be damaged, healed, flanked with, and yes, even loved.
However, if any figure or ability wants to interact with the space this creature is standing in, that figure or ability has to interact with a wall instead of an occupied square.
I think that’s what’s going on. I think it’s about that complicated. If this isn't it, then I am resigned to wait patiently for the official clarification. Thank-you-and-good-night.
Except it can't interact with most other creatures because there's a wall in the way. No attacks (of opportunity or otherwise), no flanking (because it's not adjacent, due to the wall), etc. | |
"Why am I all sticky and naked? Did I miss something fun?"
-Vindicated champion of Tordek, Dwarf Champion | |
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Benimoto
Underboss
1125 Posts
| | 03/01/2006 8:52 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
But definition of "adjascent" is;
adjacent: Occupying a square next to this space (including diagonally). A creature is not adjacent to creatures behind walls.
So the elemental wall is not "adjascent" to any other figures.
That is the aberration rulebook definition of adjascent, and I suppose wardrums could have changed it...?
No, it's the same. | |
Champion of the Rakshasa. Check out my Mini Terrain Maker, or my new Dungeon Map Maker (under development). | |
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 03/01/2006 9:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Jefftyjeffjeff
People seem to want to read this ability like it says, “This creature turns into a wall.” It’s tricky, because the ability is named “Wall Transformation.” But that’s misdirection. It doesn’t transform into a wall. It’s still a creature.
Um... yeah... misdirection... that's what the designer's were after... much better than simply calling the ability "Create Wall: A wall is created in this creature's space." if that's what they meant. [:)]
"Space" is used on the card to define where the wall is, not what the wall is made from. The wall is made from the creature, hence the name.
I too will wait for the official ruling. I really hope that the verbal gymnastics are set aside and that the Elemental Wall has the ability to... turn into a wall. And then turn back into a creature. Seems like what it was meant to do. | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 03/01/2006 10:41 AM |
| Wow, I think we are making a 40 foot wall out of a knee wall... [)]
Everyone is reading into this stat and trying to figure out how it is broken. It becomes a wall, it can do this, it can't do that... but when we read into this we are looking for our own interpretation to be correct.
If I was to think about this ability and wonder on how it worked. I would say that yes, to the initial question, you would gain tile points. The creature is an elemental wall, so when it "walls" up it is still a creature. As a creature and a wall I think it would share traits with each.
Wall: Block line of sight, stop effects and cones, no diaginal movement around corners, etc
Creature: Be attacked, have spells effect it, flank, gain tile points, etc
Now it can be also a combinatio on special things as well: cannot move, can create illegal spacing for large movement, etc
Now I'm not on the same calliber as Guy, but I think we are trying to hard to pigeon hole this figure into either being a wall or a creature and not looking at the fact that it mihgt just be both at the same time. I'll have to check the WotC boards for more info. | |
Sean Banks
Champion of Elementals
Official Organizer
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 03/01/2006 2:15 PM |
| And the answer is (from Guy's Clarifications page):
(03/01/06, War Drums) Wall Transformation: While this creature's space is a wall, all of the following apply:
It can't move or be forced to move by other effects. It can't attack or be attacked for any reason (including attacks of opportunity). Neither line of sight nor line of effect can be traced to it, and it can't trace line of sight or line of effect to other creatures or squares. It doesn't count as adjacent to other creatures or squares. It doesn't count as the nearest enemy. It can't be targeted by ranged spells, ranged special abilities, or spells and special abilities with a range of touch. It can't be affected by area effects or any effect with a range limit (including commander effects). It can still be affected by effects with a range of your warband or any warband, as well as effects that affect all creatures on the battle map.
Spells and abilities with continuous or recurring effects that affected this creature before its space became a wall continue to affect it normally so long as the recurring effect is not prevented by the other Wall Transformation restrictions. For example, although this creature can't be targeted by a Mordenkainen's sword spell while its space is a wall, a previously-cast Mordenkainen's sword spell can continue to damage this creature even while its space is a wall. In contrast, this creature can't be attacked by a previously-cast spiritual weapon spell while its space is a wall because all attacks are prevented by Wall Transformation; of course, spiritual weapon can continue to affect this creature after Wall Transformation has ended.
The normal terrain in its space is replaced by walls; any other terrain in its space does not function. Thus It can't use teleporter terrain, can't be affected by risky terrain, and so on. Victory areas and starting areas are unaffected, since those are not terrain types. Thus, it can still score victory points for occupying a victory area. The walls in its space are contiguous with other walls that this creature's space is adjacent to (including diagonally, where the two walls touch just at a corner).
If this creature is somehow eliminated before the start of its next turn, the Wall Transformation effect ends immediately.
As always, thanks Guy! You da bomb! | |
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