Mortusbard
Sergeant
427 Posts
    
North Carolina
 | | 02/25/2006 7:36 PM |
| It would seem to me that with the addition of two more pieces with Fire Ball and the Dark Naga's Lithning Bolt that the Helmed Horror might rise even further.
I personally have just won my first 2 and am waiting for them to get here.
With there immunities no speed 2 and fairly cheap point values I can't wait.
I think we will all see this piece for a long time to come. | |
Unto Death We Strive,
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
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TruNutral88
Sergeant
522 Posts
| | 02/25/2006 8:08 PM |
| quote:
Sigh.
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Champion of Bruenor Battlehammer | |
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Wakalimasu
Sergeant
738 Posts
Calgary
| | 02/25/2006 8:17 PM |
| sweet.. i just got 2 more
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o_O | |
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zenthrus
Warlord
5082 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 02/25/2006 8:45 PM |
| | If Helmed Horrors remain prevalent the Marut + Couatl (DR + Fire Resistance) will also remain prevalent. I prefer the Marut [:)] | |
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Korvax
Warrior
263 Posts
| | 02/25/2006 8:50 PM |
| Funny how originally when I saw the HH's stats, I was thinking "meh, looks ok, would be great if it had 5 more damage".
Granted, that was before I realised it was a construct, and therefore had plenty of lovely immunities. It was also before I thought about how incredibly useful flight would be for an LE piece.
Now if only I could get a second one to fill-out some LE warband ideas. I guess I'm just happy that LE got such great warband options in the last few sets. I've been an LE fan for a long time now, back when they stood practically no chance in 200pt battles (yes, I had even attempted to make a "good" medusa band... HA!) I think it's great that it's now getting its moment in the sun. Mind you, I do not believe that LE is as untouchable as some have made them out to be at the moment... I find that there is a very good balance between the factions at the moment, and I'm curious to see what kind of combinations get unleashed with all the new Wardrums stuff.
Interesting times ahead... [)] | |
Champion of the Phoenix!
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Avatar of Skirmishes
tullywi
Sergeant
982 Posts
| | 02/25/2006 9:00 PM |
| If anything, this set gives LE more choices. Hopefully, this translates into fewer HHs in competitive play. For instance, the War Troll is a viable candidate to go against HHs. DR5, regenerate 5, Melee Reach 2, and a better ranged attack (because he can move) means he should be able to hold his own against warbands with just HHs.
Doing something like Dark Naga, 2 War Trolls, 3 Kobold Miners would be interesting on the new Dragon Map. I'd say this warband could take 4 Helmed Horrors that didn't bring a magic weapon along. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/25/2006 9:15 PM |
| I think that the value of the HH will continue to rise, but that it will do so rather slowly (nothing like the Archfiends pieces). As a skirmish piece, I think that it's pretty much at it's high point, but that it will sit on a plateau or have a very long, slow decline.
Some pieces, like the Tiefling Captain and Red Samurai, have remained playable since their introduction and will likely remain so for some time.
Others have spikes. I think the HH will be like the Red Samurai, and not so spike-y.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
11453 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 02/25/2006 9:31 PM |
| | They're good, steady pieces. But, things like the Iron Golem and the Marut can be really tough on them. Certainly not unbeatable the way CE tri and quad were at one time. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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CorneilleLoiseau
Sergeant
402 Posts
Qc, Canada
| | 02/25/2006 11:26 PM |
| I don't think it will rise in value. The sculpt is not so good and only the skirmish stat don't determine the price of a mini. Look at the FB...
I could be wrong but only time will confirm us.
Guillaume | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 4:49 AM |
| I think the Helmed Horror's value will remain roughly static...but so will its high deterrence value to running spellcasters. They're immune to the three most common attack spells in D&D; Magic Missile, Fireball, and Lightning Bolt. These are the spells that 'blaster mages' tend to need to be powerful, alongside Acid Arrow.
Being immune to these, on top of being relatively maneuverable (F6 speed), durable (95 fearless HP on AC 22, that can't be stunned or paralyzed), and relatively powerful in combat ensure that the Helmed Horror mulches mages. For this reason alone, they'll maintain some value; who wants to risk running a Pyromancer (either one) when it's very likely someone'll be running a Horror? A few people, potentially me included, but generally it's a strong deterrent.
The Horror will slightly decline in value at most, and generally stay pretty high. I wouldn't expect to see it vanish any time in the near future. | |
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 11:51 AM |
| | I think I'm now going to aviod HH out of protest. | |
My Trading Thread | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 02/26/2006 12:08 PM |
| | It isn't that hard to handle these guys, folks, if you focus on it. Marut + 2 Couatls (especially with Aramil hanging around) is a very hard match-up for 4 HHs. If they truly rise in power, people will metagame against them a bit more, and we'll slowly begin to see more ways to counter them. They are a warband that you should consider in tournament play, but they are far from being invulnerable ... | |
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Thespian
Sergeant
442 Posts
Lethbridge, Alberta
| | 02/26/2006 4:27 PM |
| | I can't wait for the rust monster..... | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 7:27 PM |
| | I love how the first two replies to this thread were "Sigh." That's funny. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 8:00 PM |
| I am amused at the panic that has started to appear over this guy, when he is already in decline. Lets see how many Helmed Horror builds are around a few months from now, come qualifier season...
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I am not gone. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 8:47 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
I am amused at the panic that has started to appear over this guy, when he is already in decline.
So, let me make sure I understand you ... even though the rules of the game have just been changed to (1) remove one the Helmed Horrors few weaknesses and (2) permit the inclusion of four quality pieces like Wolves with four Helmed Horrors, your belief is that fewer people will be playing Helmed Horrors?
Um, okay. I guess we'll see.
(Granted, nobody's sure of the full extent of the rules changes yet, but according to what we know right now, your "amusement" is, well, amusing.) | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 8:55 PM |
| More people may be playing with Helmed Horrors, but that doesn't mean that they are going to be winning with them. The introduction of the Dragon Shrine map, the Wardrummer, and even the Zakya Rakshasa all make the likelihood that the Helmed Horror is going to be anywhere near as successful as they have been even lower. Once the metagame settles down, you may still see 1 or 2 in a band here or there, but thats it.
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I am not gone. | |
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Avatar of Skirmishes
tullywi
Sergeant
982 Posts
| | 02/26/2006 11:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
More people may be playing with Helmed Horrors, but that doesn't mean that they are going to be winning with them. The introduction of the Dragon Shrine map, the Wardrummer, and even the Zakya Rakshasa all make the likelihood that the Helmed Horror is going to be anywhere near as successful as they have been even lower. Once the metagame settles down, you may still see 1 or 2 in a band here or there, but thats it.
I couldn't agree more. There are simply too many other options that people will need to throw in if only to defeat another Helmed Horror warband that we won't see them as heavily used. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 1:21 AM |
| The Helmed Horror is a nice figure, but I can guarantee you that if you were to hold the world championship today, right now, only the mediocre players would be showing up with 3x or 4x HH bands. If you seriously want to win in this environment, you need more firepower than just Helmed Horrors in your army.
The HH will stay useful for a long time as a utility piece - he's a mobile flanker/line-holder/magic soaker/survivor/assassin. Pretty useful having one in your LE band. | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 2:43 AM |
| I'm in agreement. The Helmed Horror is a great single-include piece. I run the Celestial Pegasus in a similar fashion; it's so incredibly versatile that I often can't imagine NOT doing it. But Multi-HH has been abused so much that a lot of warband builders are going out of their way to deal with it.
What's funny is when you run a "deal with HHs" build...and get exactly what you want. Ever seen a player just sigh and give up once they finally realize there's nothing they can do to defeat you with their multi-Horror band? It's hilarious.
Being a Spoiler-builder might not win you championships, but it sure is amusing. | |
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Dr.Cornelius
Warrior
338 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 3:34 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
...the Wardrummer ... make(s) the likelihood that the Helmed Horror is going to be anywhere near as successful as they have been even lower. Once the metagame settles down, you may still see 1 or 2 in a band here or there, but thats it.
Been out of the loop for a while- other than being a strong piece, does the Orc Wardrummer specifically counter the Helmed Horror?
As a general comment, someone should write an article on the advantages and disadvantages of running a warband with a majority of the points tied up in figure(s) with specific matchup issues (for example, DR & Fire Resist) versus running a more diversified warband. | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2386 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 3:48 AM |
| I don't really count "spoiler" bands as effective against HH's. Because in a serious tournament, how often is someone going to just run a band that kills one thing? Not at all. Thats not the way you win a tournament. Even if you know a few bands were running HH's, would you bring a band that pretty much only did well against them? You'd get creamed with everything else, wouldn't be worth it.
Now if you are playing one on one with a buddy and you run your spoiler band and get a laugh, good for you. But honestly it doesnt prove anything...every band has a spoiler match and all you did was correctly guess the "counter", but your band can't do much else..so so what.
What there needs to be, is viable bands that do well against HH bands and other bands that are popular, like Trifecta, Inspired Frenized, GAS, Snake Eyes, etc..ones that you are guaranteed to see versions of in tournaments. I dunno, I have yet to see a band that is proposed that can do this. Everyone just spouts off spoiler bands, and not real tournament worthy bands. Obviously certain peices seem better against HH's, but start proposing real tournament worthy bands that include them and can take on other stuff.
I dont like the reliance ppl have of saying "Just use Dragon Shrine". While some people may actually use the map, you're guarantee of winning map Init isnt always for sure. I hope that is not the *main* counter for HH bands because I dont think it'll do enough. And some tournaments will have a predetermined map, what do you do if its not the Dragon Shrine? See with your peices, when you pick them out you are guaranteed to use them. With maps, you may have a good chance, but its never for certain.
Again we need to see bands that are really good against HH's, but also Tier-1 or Tier 1.5 also. Anything else, just isnt worth considering honestly because in a real tournament you wont have to worry about it. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 4:04 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by True_Blue
Again we need to see bands that are really good against HH's, but also Tier-1 or Tier 1.5 also. Anything else, just isnt worth considering honestly because in a real tournament you wont have to worry about it.
Exactly. And that's what most people -- even a couple of presumably very good players -- don't seem to get.
You may have already seen it, but I posted quite a long post in another thread, going into more detail on this. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 7:22 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Dr.Cornelius
Been out of the loop for a while- other than being a strong piece, does the Orc Wardrummer specifically counter the Helmed Horror?
As a general comment, someone should write an article on the advantages and disadvantages of running a warband with a majority of the points tied up in figure(s) with specific matchup issues (for example, DR & Fire Resist) versus running a more diversified warband.
One of the problems that things like the red samurai previously had with defeating helmed horrors is the difficulty with running away on a failed morale save. With the Wardrummer around, this is far far less likely. Rather than a Red Samurai or Orgre Ravager needing to roll a 7 to make their morale save while under command of the Tiefling Captain or Ryld, they can get away with rolling a 3. This is significant.
And despite other's claims to the contrary the presence of the Dragon Shrine will force pure Helmed Horror builds out of the metagame. If you a running a Commander 0 and many of your opponents have an initiative bonus of +6 to +8 then you are going to be losing initiative a whole lot. (Somewhere on the level of 80% on the high end.) Now if I was playing in a helmed horror-heavy metagame I would almost certainly run the Dragon Shrine in order to ensure that I don't need to deal with 1/3 of the Helmed Horror's damage. Sure, I might not win initiative every time, but if I am playing an otherwise strong band, like a CE beater band, then the Helmed Horror bands are going to start to suffer.
I don't need some whacky spoiler band to beat Helmed Horrors. The new CE with the backing of the Wardrummer is plenty. If you disagree with me fine. Continue playing with them. Run a 4 Helmed Horror build at a Qualifer or other major tournament. I am sure that there are plenty of people who are going to be more than happy to face off against you. I know I will be.
Anyway, its reached the point where I feel like I am banging my head on a brick wall, so this is the last I am going to say on the topic. We'll see what starts happening at the Qualifiers in a few months. | |
I am not gone. | |
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bshugg
Underboss
1832 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 8:15 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Mortusbard
It would seem to me that with the addition of two more pieces with Fire Ball and the Dark Naga's Lithning Bolt that the Helmed Horror might rise even further.
I think we will all see this piece for a long time to come.
However the new Dragon Temple map just gave the helmed horrors a swift kick in the junk. Its a great map to play on and should be very popular. nerfing all the helmed horrors damage by 5 is really going to cause them trouble. Especially since any warband (like 4 hitter CE) can do so. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 02/27/2006 8:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by bshugg
However the new Dragon Temple map just gave the helmed horrors a swift kick in the junk.
I havn't yet analysed the new maps. But even if the dragon temple nerfs 4HH+kobold sorcerer. I don't think it can nerf 3xHH+desent commander. Because they can win the map selection.
If a whole tournament comes down to who wins the map selection rolls; It's going to be really borring.
quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
One of the problems that things like the red samurai previously had with defeating helmed horrors is the difficulty with running away on a failed morale save. With the Wardrummer around, this is far far less likely. Rather than a Red Samurai or Orgre Ravager needing to roll a 7 to make their morale save while under command of the Tiefling Captain or Ryld, they can get away with rolling a 3. This is significant.
Ryld, Orc wardrummer & 4 red samurai is over 200pts. So thats not an option.
Tiefling captain, wardrummer etc. Is, as you say. A significant improvement in the samurai's morale. But the Tiefling's command effect is wasted against HH's. So thats a significant waste of points. Net effect is the Samurai are better off with a commander that adds melee damage+5 (e.g. Gnoll sargent) and that warband can't afford a gnoll sargent+wardrummer.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 9:23 AM |
| | I don't go into a tournament expecting to use the Tiefling Captain's commander effect. He is worth it just for the commander rating and being a commander. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10425 Posts
United States
| | 02/27/2006 9:52 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
I don't go into a tournament expecting to use the Tiefling Captain's commander effect. He is worth it just for the commander rating and being a commander.
Ditto. It's a huge mistake to rely on or even expect an effect with a 1-in-20 or a 1-in-10 chance of occuring. Too much variance. You might, indeed, roll one 20 out of every 20 rolls, but, it could be on a save that you'd only miss on a 1 anyway, or on an initiative that didn't matter in that match, or whatever.
I'm with doubtofbuddha on this one. There are lots of CFX that are like this; if the commander doesn't stand on his own without a trick effect, don't use it.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 9:59 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
Ditto. It's a huge mistake to rely on or even expect an effect with a 1-in-20 or a 1-in-10 chance of occuring.
C'mon, Dave ... as a math teacher, you should know better than this.
Of course you can expect some result from a Tiefling Captain's commander effect. The amount of the boost you get to average damage (against crittable opponents) is even called "expectation."
No, you might not roll a 19 on five percent of your attack rolls ... but you definitely should expect to do so.
And it's a red herring to group every d20 roll -- saves, init, whatever -- in with attack rolls when you're talking about the Tiefling Captain. The expectation isn't "five percent of d20 rolls should give me good things from my commander." The expectation is "five percent of attack rolls should give me good things from my commander."
Let other people pretend that five percent isn't a significant number. If they really believe that, let's see how willing they are to let me play with 210 points to their 200.We know better. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 10:03 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
I havn't yet analysed the new maps. But even if the dragon temple nerfs 4HH+kobold sorcerer. I don't think it can nerf 3xHH+desent commander. Because they can win the map selection.
I agree XAos...simply because of the Dragon Shrine issue, I feel that 3 HH's plus decent commander (cmd 4 at least) has a better chance at winning in the long run that commanderless 4HH. But if you keep extending that logic...
Four threats is clearly better than three, and the only way to get there is drop another HH. Something like 2xHH, 2xDuergar Champ; or Efreeti, Gauth, 2xDuergar.
So...you can see how easy it is to talk yourself out of half or even all of your Helmed Horrors. Still...Helmed Horrors are a VERY strong addition to alot of good warbands. They will show up in numbers at most tournaments, and the Triple variants will do very well, and even win some tournaments. Powerful creature? Yes. Unbeatable? Absolutely not.
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Rhane
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 10:15 AM |
| This is a game primarily about math, time and points - hit points, victory points, etc.
As constructs with 95 hp, Helmed Horrors have an incredible amount of resiliency. They will always have value based on this unless we see construct-targetting abilities (ie., do more damage to constructs). They have no special vulnerabilities (double damage from XXX, etc.)
As creatues with a 10 + 5 fire attack they have a moderate amount of offense but one that can be easily reduced to negligible levels.
As the game moves in a way where more hitters have DR or fire resistance the Helmed Horrors will begin to lose more and more ground on the hit-point attrition race. | |
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NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 10:50 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
[quote]Originally posted by bshugg
But the Tiefling's command effect is wasted against HH's. So thats a significant waste of points.
Come now, it's no secret the real point of the Tiefling has always been the broken-ness of Commander 4 for only 21 points in the CE faction. Sure it's too bad about the command effect, but that's just icing on the cake.
I seriously don't think 3x or 4x HH is the way to go if you seriously want to win. While those armies are "solid" in the sense that you will not tend to outright lose a lot of battles because of your survivability, you sure as hell won't be winning too many with such poor damage output. Doubtofbuddha said it best - I don't need an "anti-HH" band to beat you, all I need is a standard band with four quality beaters of my own. With the Wardrummer, CE is in prime real estate again to be that band, but hell - what if you face two Frenzied Berzerkers?
The survivability of Helmed Horrors is a red herring, making some players believe they are "swarmable" when, at the highest level, they are not. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 10:57 AM |
| | Actually, I don't think that quad Helmed Horrors have too bad of a time against the Frenzied Berserkers, unless you face them on the Dragon Shrine map. In that situation you can end up with serious issues. In a Helmed Horror-strong metagame I would be tempted to play the Warforged Barbarian instead of one of the Frenzied Berserkers. As it is he is going to need to hit you 4 times in order to force a morale save, and on the Dragon Shrine that becomes 8 times.. | |
I am not gone. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2395 Posts
London
| | 02/27/2006 11:08 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by NightMoor
... all I need is a standard band with four quality beaters of my own. With the Wardrummer, CE is in prime real estate again to be that band, but hell - what if you face two Frenzied Berzerkers?
UK open had several HH warbands & several CG-beatstik (FB, rikka etc) warbands. They were the 2 most common types of warbands played. So that sort of matchup happend several times during the tournament. The helmed horrors won, fairly decisivly.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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lynchpt
Sergeant
926 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 12:35 PM |
| I'm a big fan of multi HH bands, have played them over 35 times, and won the Winter Fantasy Constructed event with one, so I'll make so bold as to venture my thoughts.
Today:
Multi (3 or 4) HH bands are at least as good (in my opinion slightly better) as any other band right now for serious tournaments. They beat 2 or 3 Frenzied Berserkers regularly, as well as up to 3 Red Sams (the sole Orc Champion or Death Slaad in alternate builds are too easy to kill without Resist Fire). The HHs also beat up triple Death Slaads.
The HHs only beat Red Sam x4 or Marut Coatl bands around 50% of the time, perhaps a little less. The HHs have big trouble against Marut and 2 Coatls and Kord/Coatl/CoDA bands.
Going Forward:
doubtofbudda beat me to the punch - the HHs take a step back. The Dragon Shrine map gives the whole opposing warband Resist Fire 5 for free. Most of those good matchups I discussed earlier take a turn much for the worse if you lose map init. One might object that the HH band could still win side init and take the fire shrine side. That is not as much a help as it seems since the HH bands don't have enough offense to leave a HH behind to guard the shrine. So when the HHs come out to engage, many bands will have enough speed to harrass/kill the little piece or commander guarding the shrine and take over the resistance. This map factor alone would make me reluctant to take a multi HH band to a high stakes tournament.
Perhaps less obvious but just as significant was the effect of the Wardrummer that dob mentioned. Multi HH only beats the CE quad bands because of the reliably failed morale checks. The 3 Red Sam/Orc Champ band that is not scary today becomes much worse when 4 CE hitters all make their MCs 58% of the time (the actual number when commanded by a TC and the Save + 4 drum beat is active).
When you put all these factors together, the multi HH bands take a step back from being one of the top bands to being merely a good, competitive band. That's what we all wanted, right? I include myself because I am tired of playing those boring figs just because they were so good [:)].
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roonechr
Sergeant
604 Posts
Kansas City, MO
| | 02/27/2006 1:18 PM |
| quote:
when 4 CE hitters all make their MCs 58% of the time (the actual number when commanded by a TC and the Save + 4 drum beat is active).
Obviously a typo - you mean 85%. | |
Champion Of Hydras | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 02/27/2006 1:21 PM |
| | No he means 58%. He is saying 58% of the time every single one of the hitters will make their morale save. | |
I am not gone. | |
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