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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
    
 | | 03/04/2006 8:43 PM |
| The Wizard's boards are down, so, I'm asking this here.
In the final match for 1st place in our local Release Tournament, I based a Brass Dragon with my Aspect of Moradin and hit it with a melee attack.
The Brass Dragon was adjacent to a corner of a wall.
My opponent said that "Stonelord" didn't grant me 5 more damage because his Bronze Dragon wasn't bordered by a wall.
Stonelord says you get 5 extra melee damage against opponents who are borded by a wall.
I felt that if you asked a person, "How many squares border a single square in the middle of a 1x1 grid?"
The answer in any math class I've been in is 8 squares (including the corners).
My opponent was unyeildingly sure that he was correct, that a corner does not "border" a square... otherwise, they would have said "adjacent". He felt that the wall was just adjacent, or touching, rather than bordering.
We disagreed, I asked for the judge.
The judge looked in the rule books and Guy's clarifiations, couldn't find it, and asked the store owner for an opinion.
They decided that since the word adjacent wasn't used, a corner of a wall did not border a square that only touched it's corner.
So, in their opinion, a single grid square is only bordered by 4 other squares, not 8... and a 2x2 base is bordered by 8 squares, not 12.
The ruling did not affect the outcome of the game, but I'd like some clarification.
I still feel that a grid square is bordered by 8 squares.
I feel anything that is adjacent to a square also borders that square.
The word "borders" is not defined anywhere that we could find, and while I thought the definition was obvious, three people disagreed.
I think they over analyzed that the word adjacent wasn't used, rather than considering the definition of the word "border" in an english dictionary. I believe that a border goes entirely around something... including the corners, like a picture frame.
Maybe I'm wrong, but, I'd love to know for sure, especially since the discussion between my opponent and myself was a bit heated.
We both felt that the other person was blatantly incorrect.
Anyone know for sure? | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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Richard II
Commander
3663 Posts
| | 03/04/2006 9:01 PM |
| I'm pretty sure you should've gotten the extra damage.
The situation was something like:
W[][]
[]LBLB
[]LBLBAoMAoM
[][][]AoMAoM
right? Where "W" would be the wall, LB would be the 4 squares occupied by the Large Bronze and then the AoM is the Aspect of Moradin. | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 03/04/2006 9:21 PM |
| Exactly.
The wall was actually on the bottom left corner, but, yes, it was the same idea.
The question is, "Is a 2x2 grid in the middle of a square grid area bordered by 12 squares, or 8 squares (but not the corners)?"
When Wizards comes back up, I'll try to get clarification from Guy.
I had a lot of missed rolls at important times, but it was still a very close game.
I'm extremely glad that the extra 5 damage from what I still think is an incorrect ruling did not impact the outcome of the game, because it was frustrating to still come very close to winning in spite of unfriendly dice at many critical points in the game (not where I needed a high roll, but where I might need, say, a 4... and I'd roll a 3... or I'd need a 2 and I'd roll a 1).
My opponent didn't make many mistakes, if any, so, he certainly deserved the win and deserves credit for making the most of his many high dice rolls. That's why dice are involved in the game. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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juice
Warrior
175 Posts
| | 03/04/2006 9:45 PM |
| FYI, a similar issue cropped up when someone queried Guy on Wall Walker's ability, that is to say, "This creature is considered to have Flight as long as it begins its move in a square bordered by a wall". I recalled that the answer was that a corner does not "border" a square; otherwise, the word "adjacent" would have been issued. For consistency, the same clarification on "bordered" ought to apply to the "Stonelord" ability.
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1341 Posts
| | 03/04/2006 11:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by juice
FYI, a similar issue cropped up when someone queried Guy on Wall Walker's ability, that is to say, "This creature is considered to have Flight as long as it begins its move in a square bordered by a wall". I recalled that the answer was that a corner does not "border" a square; otherwise, the word "adjacent" would have been issued. For consistency, the same clarification on "bordered" ought to apply to the "Stonelord" ability.
Exactly. | | | |
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YRM_DM
Sergeant
905 Posts
| | 03/04/2006 11:33 PM |
| Yeah, I looked on Guy's clarifications for "Wall Walker" and "Border" but didn't see anything.
Webster's says:
quote:
1 : an outer part or edge
2 : an ornamental design at the edge of a fabric or rug
3 : a narrow bed of planted ground along the edge of a garden or walk
4 : BOUNDARY
5 : a plain or decorative margin around printed matter
By that, you could say that either the edge constitutes a border, or that the full boundary constitutes a border.
I think if you were asked, on your SAT, how many squares border the square with an X in it, you'd answer 8, not 4.
[O][O][O]
[O][X][O]
[O][O][O]
I don't understand why this wouldn't be in the new rulebook or in Guy's clarifications if it'd been answered.
Based on the various definition of the word border, you could see it being interpreted different ways.
As a graphic designer, I know that if I put a border around something in Photoshop or Flash, the border isn't open on the corners. A 3 pixel border goes completely around the outside of whatever it is bordering...
Even on a rug with fringe, there is fringe on the corners, (sometimes a tassel) and that fringe is considered part of the border.
If corners do not count, the word "Border" does not properly convey that... and it needs to be defined in the rules or errata or FAQ or somewhere. | |
Completed good trades with Demagogue, PigSnot, DoB, and Alepulp.
I know you can hear MY thoughts... Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow, Meow... | |
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kgradert13
Sergeant
909 Posts
| | 03/05/2006 1:29 AM |
| Last I checked, it had to cover one side of a square, not just touch a corner.
So the below would work
Wxxx
BBxx
BBxx
AAxx
AAxx
This would not
wxx
xBB
xBB
AAx
AAx
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juice
Warrior
175 Posts
| | 03/05/2006 4:01 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by YRM_DM
Yeah, I looked on Guy's clarifications for "Wall Walker" and "Border" but didn't see anything.
Webster's says:
quote:
1 : an outer part or edge
2 : an ornamental design at the edge of a fabric or rug
3 : a narrow bed of planted ground along the edge of a garden or walk
4 : BOUNDARY
5 : a plain or decorative margin around printed matter
By that, you could say that either the edge constitutes a border, or that the full boundary constitutes a border.
I think if you were asked, on your SAT, how many squares border the square with an X in it, you'd answer 8, not 4.
[O][O][O]
[O][X][O]
[O][O][O]
I don't understand why this wouldn't be in the new rulebook or in Guy's clarifications if it'd been answered.
Based on the various definition of the word border, you could see it being interpreted different ways.
As a graphic designer, I know that if I put a border around something in Photoshop or Flash, the border isn't open on the corners. A 3 pixel border goes completely around the outside of whatever it is bordering...
Even on a rug with fringe, there is fringe on the corners, (sometimes a tassel) and that fringe is considered part of the border.
If corners do not count, the word "Border" does not properly convey that... and it needs to be defined in the rules or errata or FAQ or somewhere.
.
I ought to have saved the relevant web page, and would forward it to you as soon as I have access to my computer (writing this using PDA phone).
Perhaps more suitable word or words other than "bordered" should have been used to convey the intent to exclude a corner square from the effect. | |
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juice
Warrior
175 Posts
| | 03/05/2006 8:05 AM |
| YRM_DM, I have the saved html file but not the url. See below:
quote:
Thread Tools Display Modes
#1 12-16-05, 11:27 AM
spikegif
Member Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: West Jordan, Utah
[GUY] Mounted Drow Patrol and Wall Walker
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the card stats
Wall Walker (This creature is considered to have Flight as long as it begins its move in a square bordered by a wall)
Does a corner count as a "Border"?
Code:
......W.
....DD..
....DD..
........D=Mounted Drow Patrol
W=Wall
Does the MDP gain flight? it is not "Bordered" by a wall, it is adjesent (sp?) to the wall (corner)
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Last edited by spikegif : Today at 10:11 AM.
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#2 12-16-05, 12:28 PM
Orion72
Member Join Date: Oct 2005
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No, it doesn't. I think if R&D had meant it to work when touching a wall, they'd have put "adjacent" on the card instead of "bordering".
The way it works conceptually is that the lizard runs up a wall and along the ceiling to simulate the effects of Flight. Obviously, it can't do this if it's just at the corner of a wall. It needs at least one full "inch" of wall in order to achieve its pseudo-Flight.
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#3 12-16-05, 12:42 PM
Guy Fullerton
Minis Rules Rep Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
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Orion72 is correct.
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#4 12-16-05, 02:36 PM
spikegif
Member Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: West Jordan, Utah
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Fullerton
Orion72 is correct.
I though that was how it was to work,
Last night playing with another local player who attended GenCon SoCal said it was judged yes they could in the limited championships by some of the judges, so I just needed some extra clerification on this.
Thank you Guy and Orion72
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#5 Today, 03:37 AM
angelfiend
Member Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Utah
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Mounted Brow Patrol= Checks to see if your eyebrows are aligned.
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[GUY] Mounted Drow Patrol and Wall Walker
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 03/05/2006 10:18 AM |
| Thanks for digging up one of the few times I've been right!
"Bordered by" is meant to be distinct from "adjacent to". Corners don't count for "bordered by" but they do count for "adjacent to".
On a side note, if I pull Moradin today, I want a Lg Doogie, Frost Dwarf and Elemental Wall to go with him! | | | |
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