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One_Wing
Sergeant
494 Posts
    
London
 | | 03/09/2006 3:22 AM |
| Before I start on my opinions, I feel obliged to tell you that I strongly feel that the Helmed Horror should be banned, for reasons that will hopefully become clear.
When the Helmed Horror stats were leaked in the run up to the release of underdark, people thought it looked fairly efficient and nice in ones or twos as blockers for titans or ranged killers such as naga-gauth. The exception to this rule were all the people who had run the stats through a spreadsheet to see what Helmed Horrors were more points efficient than. The answer seemed to be pretty much everything. The few things more efficient than them all seemed to have some sort of drawback, such as the Iron Golem, which draws pretty much guaranteed loss against Horrors due to requires commander, and Dire bears which, though they are narrowly more efficient than the Helmed Horror once enchanted with Legions Magic fang, will always be outnumbered by the Horrors due to having to bring the Green Fang Druid. Lets look at the Horrors strengths:
1). 95 HP, 22 AC, Fearless, Spell immunities, Construct immunities, Level 10. Helmed Horrors are one of the toughest units relative to their cost currently in the game. Add to this the fact that they are fearless, and you realise that killing them will take time. Just to make sure they are hard enough, they are immune to three of the core damage dealing spells in the game, and also immune to being stunned, paralyzed, sneak attacked, Beholdered (largely anyway) and many others. Broadly, you have to kill them, and you have to do it with combat damage or Mordenkainen’s sword. They have a chance greater than 50% to save against just about anything that can affect them.
2). High attack bonuses, medium damage, blindsight. The faction with the best chance of beating Helmed horrors is probably Chaotic Good. This is because they do the most straight up combat damage, generally at better bonuses than Chaotic Evil. This falls down when you realise that against CG, helmed horrors will generally hit with both their attacks about 70% of the time. The poor beleaguered (who knew) Frenzied Berzerker, on the other hand, while generally getting hit for 30 a turn will only double hit back about 25% of the time Since it will mostly be outnumbered, it will likely do 60 damage to one horror before dying. The helmed horrors can afford this, since the FB costs more points than they each do, so against four HH’s there can at most be 3 FBs. This is an example, but it is not that unusual in spirit. The final addition is blind sight, which not only means that a hit stays a hit (except against incorporeal), but that they can operate on hellspike, which allows them to advance without fear of ranged attacks, and charge those who can’t charge them.
3). Flying. This I will discuss more in the metagame section, but flying is almost the worst part of the horrors. It makes them the best commander assassins in the game, and gives any band built around a commander effect fits. It also allows them to flank easily in the unlikely occurrence that they are having trouble hitting something. Essentially, flying takes everything that’s evil about the horrors and makes it 30% worse.
So there are the core advantages of the things. I feel that I should also list their main disadvantages:
1). Irregular damage. 10 + 5 fire is not the best damage stat. against most things that are good against helmed horrors, such as FBs, Dire Bears, and Hill Giant Barbarians, full damage will be dealt. A few things however, have DR, fire resistance or both. The last category is on the way up thanks to Dragon temple. What this means is that, in the current metagame, Helmed Horror bands need a source of magic weapon. They also now need a reasonably good commander, to try and limit matches played on dragon temple. They can, however, get these and still have 3 Horrors in a band.
2). Slow. OK, so they could be slower, but CG/CE bands with speed 8/10 will be able to dictate where the battle happens.
Most players, along with myself reckon that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages quite significantly. Because of this, the Horrors are currently quite a force in the metagame. Looking at the UK challenge cup warband lists, a whole quarter of the field had at least 1 Helmed Horror in their band. More relevantly, out of these five players, 3 ended up in the top four, taking 1st 2nd and 4th places. This is reasonably alarming. At qualifier tournaments in the US, 1st and 2nd place get the invitation. It is unlikely, but possible if you follow this sheet that every single person who qualifies for the world championship this year will be playing Helmed Horrors. The counter argument for this is that the players near the top of the UK challenge cup were also highly rated, so it was skill that determined the winners. This has a lot of merit as an argument, but the fact that highly ranked players not playing helmed horrors came further down indicates that when highly skilled players are dropped into the same metagame, those playing Helmed horrors do slightly better.
Right, now lets assume that Helmed Horrors are both highly prevalent and highly effective. How does this affect warband building? Either you need to somehow heuter the horrors, or you need to be simply better at dealing damage than them. Both of these things are tall orders. In order to neuter the horrors, you need a core of hitters with DR and fire resistance (or a high commander and dragon temple + DR). This is best epitomised by 4x Night hag, who including ray of enfeeblement take no damage from helmed horrors without MW. The straight Combat damage is harder. I would reckon the best shots on this front to be [Orc champion x4 + Eye of Gruumsh], Triple Frenzy, Hill Giant Barbarians or Quad Red Samurai. The neuter bands tend to be unviable, since they, while generally better at beating Horrors themselves, will lose to the straight damage bands. The damage bands rely slightly more on luck to beat the Horrors, but certainly can do it about 50% of the time. It really does come down to the attack rolls.
So Horrors can be beaten. Not, however, by very interesting bands. The straight combat bands vs Horrors tends to largely come down to how the dice come up on the day, with the role of skill being minimised. This is not what DDM is meant to be about. It should be about skill. What taking the Horrors out will do, I reckon, will increase the level of skill at both warband building and playing required to do well. This is largely due to the fact that without the Horrors, many more pieces become viable to use. In fact, my main complaint with the Horrors apart from how good they are is how many pieces they make useless. Lets just have a quick look from the last three sets:
Angelfire
Ulmo Lightbringer; without sneak attack, he is useless
Chraal; remember the commander assassins thing?
Underdark
Loyal Earth Elemental; ^ what he said
Slayer of Domiel; See Ulmo
Iron Golem; see Chraal
Artemis Entreri; See Ulmo
Balor; No enslave, no fun
War Drums
Warpriest of Moradin; morale saves no
Mephling Pyromancer; fireballs no
Warbound Impaler; Paralysis no
Flameskull: fireballs no
Shuluth, Archvillan: stun no
Elemental wall: Zig Fly
If these were boring pieces, this would be less important. But they’re not. These are actually some of the more interesting pieces that require skill to use. I reckon that the metagame would be more fun with these pieces in it. DDM is meant to be competitive, but it is also meant to be fun. For this reason, I reckon that the Horrors should be removed.
You have my opinion, I would like yours, should they be banned or not? IF you have a strong opinion, please say why. | |
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|
Sean-Khan
Commander
2717 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 3:46 AM |
| I hate them. Still, there's many pieces that makes others useless; There's beholders that seriously harm spellcasters for example, or Rikka that endangers weaker commanders and most spellcasters. And your claim about Balor - it's been said to be maybe the best unit against Horrors.
I don't like idea of banning. These pieces have strong effect on metagame and they are really strong, but not invincible. In competitive play one must take this kind of opponents into account, but I don't want to see this kind of bands in casual play.
What I don't like is that removing speed 2 makes two of these a viable band in 100p play - and they will be hard to win if you aren't prepared. Still, they aren't invincible. For example, two night hags would be almost impossible to win with two Horrors. | |
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Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 3:48 AM |
| No banning necessary. Not by a long shot.
The metagame is ripe with all kinds of cool & different concepts that handle HHs just fine.
Individually, the HH is a solid piece, but we're certainly not doomed to be fighting 3x and 4x HH warbands in the War Drums timeframe.
Also, you can't base your conclusions on just the UK Cup. Look at the opposition the top warband had to face on its way to #1: *Zero* enemy creatures with fire resistance/immunity, *two* enemy creatures with DR, and *one* enemy creature with any kind of damage-reducing ability (ie. Aramil). (And the one match against Aramil was a loss.) Look at how few Underdark time-frame tier-1 warbands were in that tournament.
This isn't to detract from the top players' play skill. They clearly played exceptionally well. It's *very* hard to do well at a large tournament, regardless of the opposition warbands you face.
My point is that the warbands fielded in the UK Cup isn't an accurate snapshot of the true Underdark metagame. | |
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Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 3:52 AM |
| This is a very interesting question. It's worth noting that up until now, no piece has caused this level of controversy aside from the Drider Sorcerer. The Helmed Horror is the second time this topic has come up in any significant amount, in, what, 9 sets? That's an incredible success rate WotC has had in ensuring as few pieces are sickeningly overpowered as possible. So when I weigh in on this matter with as much venom as I'm going to, realize that I do so only because the Helmed Horror is abberant amongst its kin.
I don't think Helmed Horrors should be banned. I say this despite the fact that I absolutely hate these pieces and think anyone who plays with more than one of them in their warband is completely uncreative. They're boring, ridiculously strong pieces that render a lot of other pieces unplayable. That's really a shame, since otherwise I might actually run a Wand Expert, but with these flying junkheaps around I don't dare; one hit from them will force a morale save and I hand over 33 points from one blow. Lame.
But for all their Top Tierness, they are beatable. Just before War Drums came out, I finished researching an anti-Dark Flames band for Chaotic Good. A side effect of being tooled to beat Dark Flames (Gauth, Dark Naga, one Helmed Horror, a few Duergar Champions and Kobold Miners to fill it out) was that if they over-emphasized the Helmed Horrors, I annihilated them. Between Aramil and the Elf Pyromancer, I could make several units outright unable to be hurt by the Helmed Horror. Toss in Rikka and a Pegasus, and I had nothing to fear but a pair of Duergar Champs and the Gauth, which didn't live long while Rikka and a Pegasus swarm-beat it to death. Granted, I had "spoiler-banded"; built something specifically to beat it. But it wasn't a bad band in general as far as CG goes; I'd have taken it to a tournament and expected to do okay.
That was before War Drums. Now we have even more options to work with. The Brass Samurai has Resist Fire 5; good luck Magic Weapon'ing your way past that. Toss in an Aramil Nerfium Beam and you're good to go. Warforged Barbarians are another possible counter, Magic Weapon aside. And if you set up the right circumstances (admittedly hard to do without counter-banding), Rikka can also rock their world. Granted, I'm speaking from CG's side of things only since I don't play LE or CE, and LG's my Secondary while CG's my Main.
Helmed Horrors dominated for...what, four months? Is that how long it is between sets? I wouldn't know; War Drums was the first set to be launched since I joined the DDM community. Helmed Horrors are still popular now, and I imagine many LE players will always include at least one just for the sheer power they provide. But I'm not sure we'll see Helmed Horror "phonebooth bands" (i.e. "How many can you cram in?") for much longer. Between Dragon Shrine and pieces that specifically give Horrors a hard time, I think they're able to be controlled with what's available, and more counters get introduced all the time.
There's no need to ban the Helmed Horror. There's counters for it, and said solutions are not so exotic as to be auto-losses against everything else in the game. It's admittedly a pretty telling sign that this one piece can drive so much of the metagame thought, but they can be beaten with purely average dice rolls.
If anything, people running Helmed Horrors need to be given a stern, disapproving stare and renamed to "Mervin." That should take care of the problem. | |
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Cormulan
Sergeant
533 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 3:56 AM |
| I think Helmed Horrors are like vanilla icecream. Tasty and satisfying, but lacking in pizzazz. While they do have solid stats, they are lacking in 'impact'.
If they become a HUGE part of your metagame, try one of the following:
Dwarf Artificer - Rust Construct drops the damage output to 5 + 5 fire.
Aramil - Ray of Enfeeble drops damage output 5 + 5 Fire.
Couatl - drops damage output to 10.
Hill Giant Barbarian - Expensive, but hits Hook Horrors at +14/+9 (40)
Hookies also lack reach - which can be potentially exploited. | |
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| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 3:59 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus Knight
It's worth noting that up until now, no piece has caused this level of controversy aside from the Drider Sorcerer.
No, that's not true. Here is a list of creatures that caused far, far more controversy (and cries of brokenness) than the Helmed Horror:
Axe Sister (!)
Ogre Ravager
Gauth
Graycloak Ranger (!)
LSD
Orc Champion
Inspiring Marshal
(and, of course, the Drider as you mention) | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
| D&D Miniatures
Guru
guyf
Sergeant
545 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 4:02 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus Knight
Helmed Horrors dominated for...what, four months?
Do you have tournament results to back that up?
We've seen them do well in the UK Cup. I believe the Northeast Open had them do well. And I believe they also did well in the Winter Fantasy constructed events. However, the rest of the four months of tournament reports in the Underdark *didn't* show anything close to dominance of HHs. | |
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Guy Fullerton
Official D&D Miniatures Net Rep | |
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Cormulan
Sergeant
533 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 4:15 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
[quote]Originally posted by Pegasus Knight
No, that's not true. Here is a list of creatures that caused far, far more controversy (and cries of brokenness) than the Helmed Horror:
Axe Sister (!)
Ogre Ravager
Gauth
Graycloak Ranger (!)
LSD
Orc Champion
Inspiring Marshal
(and, of course, the Drider as you mention)
You are forgetting one of the first and foremost 'unbeatable' warbands - Displaced Agression (Human Blackguard and 2 x Displacer Beasts).
Back in Harbinger days Conceal 11 and 50HP was 'da bomb'. | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 4:18 AM |
| Guy: I stand corrected on many counts, then. I'll concede that my 'sphere of experience' is pretty limited, so I'm going by reading a random variety of tournament reports, some old threads, and what I see on Vassal, which is probably as close as I'll get to simulating an national-level metagame since I live in the middle of nowhere. I've made efforts to study the metagame behind DDM though, to the point of knowing a lot of the historically common bands (CE Quad, etc.) before I owned a single DDM piece; did a lot of study while waiting for my starter to arrive. Still, I'll concede a lack of truly extensive knowledge on this matter. As a result, the list you provided to contradict my showing of Helmed Horror and Drider Sorcerer surprises me, but I concede the specifics.
It does blow my mind to think that some of the pieces you listed have caused the same level of controversy. The only piece on the list you cited that makes me twitch is the Gauth, the rest all seem readily able to be dealt with. And even the Gauth isn't unbeatable, just friggin' frustrating to face. Of course, that's with several extra sets worth of knowledge on how to play against them in the community's general pool of info. Still, even going by that math we have...about 8 to 9 pieces stirring debate, out of well over 200-300 (probably more)? That's an incredible success rate for balancing the 'characters' in a competitive game, if only about 10 of them have caused "OMG NERF!" discussions in any real quantity.
"Do you have tournament records to back that up?" -- Not quite, but I phrased my statement poorly; I was using the "What, four months?" question/statement to illustrate that they'd only been around for one set. While I'm new to DDM, I'm not new to competitive gaming in general. It takes time for a community to adapt to newly dominant characters, strategies, or weapons. Could it take literally months for them to do so? Yes. Easily. My question/statement was admittedly spawned by my experiences on Vassal, where in just two months I'd seen so many Helmed Horrors that I honestly wondered if LE simply didn't have many other pieces. I had to look through the Vesivus gallery for them to see otherwise. Can't totally blame a fella for getting the wrong perspective of Dark Flames bands and Helmed Horror phoneboothing if they honestly do see a lot of that in their 'region of play', eh?
So I'll admit that I got a lot of the specifics wrong due to lack of experience/perspective, and I'm glad you set me straight on them. But the general gist still stands; Helmed Horrors are boring pieces, but they're not God Tier, they don't need to be banned. | |
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zenthrus
Commander
4913 Posts
SLC, UT
| | 03/09/2006 4:26 AM |
| I fall in the "not necessary to ban Helmed Horrors" camp.
As has already been noted this isn't the first piece that has spurred a call for a ban and there are numerous counters (my favorite being the Dwarf Artificer's Rust Construct).
If Helmed Horrors reach a point where they are the only factor in the metagame enough anti-Helmed Horror bands (Couatl + Marut + Dwarf Artificer + Aramil or Red Samurais, etc. ) will pop up to discourage people only running the Helmed Horror. | |
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alepulp
Underboss
1536 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 03/09/2006 4:55 AM |
| One_Wing beat my triple HH warband - and I was the winner of the UK Challenge Cup with the Rasta Horror build.
Skill does come into DDM, not just warband building, but also guessing what the metagame might be. This is based on a number factors. I felt that there would be a number of Couatl/Marut warbands - so I went to a combo with HH and Rakshasa and Dark Moon Monk to counter that. Now - I don't feel that that was an unimaginative combination since the vast majority of the metagame to date was to play a Dark Naga combo with them. However, this just wouldn't have worked very well against mirror matchups - cast your lightning bolts as much as you want to, my HHs are also immune. Nor would it do well against Couatl/Marut combos.
My other guess was that there would be Helmed Horrors there in reasonable numbers - not expecting a 4xHH version though - and I felt that the Rakshasa was the best counter to those warbands.
Lastly, I knew there would be an Archmage in the mix from our Polish player (a very skilled AM player) and I felt that the Rakshasa would be the best counter for his skill in commander assassination (it is easier to hide a medium creature than a large one).
So, was it without imagination - no, it took a lot of consideration to work out the bext combo. Now, I may be wrong here, but I don't think I'd seen a 3xHH + Rak combo discussed before the UK Cup (although I might have digested it subliminally).
Should it be banned? No way - as with all these figures - we'll get over it. Probably some of the up and coming tournaments will show just how this is done. Certainly, I'm am expecting the metagame at the EU Champs to be even more complex to read than the UK Champs - and that was very difficult based on the fact that I got the main reason wrong for choosing the Rakshasa - Couatl/Marut. | |
One of these days WoTC will update their tournament page when I'm in the top 5... they never seem to do when I'm in that bracket :(
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2717 Posts
| |
One_Wing
Sergeant
494 Posts
London
| | 03/09/2006 5:43 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
Also, you can't base your conclusions on just the UK Cup. Look at the opposition the top warband had to face on its way to #1: *Zero* enemy creatures with fire resistance/immunity, *two* enemy creatures with DR, and *one* enemy creature with any kind of damage-reducing ability (ie. Aramil). (And the one match against Aramil was a loss.) Look at how few Underdark time-frame tier-1 warbands were in that tournament.
So? One of my points was that people shouldn't have to build warbands with this sort of thing just in case of Helmed Horrors. It goes to show that in a helmed horror enviornment they will do well unless specifically countered.
I know that building the best Helmed Horror build also requires large amounts of skill, as several of you ahve and since they are there for everyone to use you can argue that it is just as much of a skill test as ever, just more concentrated on one faction, but it does cut down seriously on the number of bands that are valid, and the options for those who don't want to play horrors or can't afford them. Also, you should add the Khumat to the list of figures that Helmed horrors make useless. | |
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orcdoubleax
Sergeant
694 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 5:47 AM |
| | helmed horrors are not even close to being necesary to be banned. It is a good piece, but it not even the best piece being played right now. | |
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Kiddoc
Underboss
1797 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 7:00 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by guyf
quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus Knight
It's worth noting that up until now, no piece has caused this level of controversy aside from the Drider Sorcerer.
No, that's not true. Here is a list of creatures that caused far, far more controversy (and cries of brokenness) than the Helmed Horror:
Axe Sister (!)
Ogre Ravager
Gauth
Graycloak Ranger (!)
LSD
Orc Champion
Inspiring Marshal
(and, of course, the Drider as you mention)
Man, you should have heard the people SCREAMING for the Axe Sister to be banned. "The Most Br0ken P13c3 EVARRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!" ranted the hoi poloi...
I had a Cleric of CR, 3x Axe Sister, 4x Gnome Recruit band that didn't lose a match for almost 3 months. [:D] Bah-roken. Everyone at my FLGS hated that piece. Hated seeing her pop up everywhere.
Now if you take a good look at that list (Displacer Beasts are missing? *sniff*), you'll notice a trend in order of the time they were released.
At some point, between 6 and 12 months after all those pieces were relased, they suddenly became less of a problem. Wacky! What could be behind that? | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10365 Posts
United States
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 8:14 AM |
| As someone who has played Helmed Horrors and likes them I think this kind of talk is silly.
It's an efficient piece. Heck, even a "very good" piece. There are lots of very good pieces though.
The problem with the Helmed Horror is that it fits into the same mold as the LSD, Gauth and other warband-construction-affecting pieces. Players get hung up on how their band is going to fare against piece X and can't get past the mental-wall they've created. It intimidates far more than it's actual future tournament presence.
Here's a hint for all those who have read this far ... multiple Helmed Horror bands are not the future of the game. The top players recognize this and are testing all sorts of other bands/combinations. Multi-HH bands will continue to pop up, but then I had to play against a dual LRD band at my last local event. Single HHs will still show up ... just like single Chraals still show up but multi-Chraal bands are few and far between.
"What point is my Archmage if multiple Helmed Horrors show up?"
Is no different than ...
"What point is my Champ/Ravager/Eye/FB of multiple Justice Archons show up?"
Except to the person who's asking the question. | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 9:51 AM |
| | You can tell they are doing something right at R&D, since the game balances itself, unlike Magic, for instance. If take a broken card from magic from an early set, it's still broken as hell. But if you take an "broken" mini from an early set, say... LSD, for example its no longer broken. | |
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Sulaco
Underboss
1605 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 9:56 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by One_Wing
You have my opinion, I would like yours, should they be banned or not? IF you have a strong opinion, please say why.
No, they should not be banned. Banning figures is the worst idea in the long, sad history of bad ideas. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 10:40 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sean-Khan
What I don't like is that removing speed 2 makes two of these a viable band in 100p play - and they will be hard to win if you aren't prepared. Still, they aren't invincible. For example, two night hags would be almost impossible to win with two Horrors.
WORD! Now I'm not saying a strong analysis of the metagame figures should have been considered or that it wasn't but the Helmed Horror was certainly one that sort of fell through the cracks in many ways (sounds familiar as the Drider) with respects to the change over to no speed 2 rule. However it is not unbeatable. For that matter the Drider isn't anymore either but oddly it stays banned but that's neither here or there. Helmed Horrors do have some weaknesses and can be taken down with some luck. Currently the Lawfuls are what is played for specific reasons that are quite obvious. Chaotics have miserable Levels, ACs and attack bonuses that can't hit them. The Orc Wardrummer will help them from routing so easily but it won't fix the problem that too many Lawful figures are now in autohit territory against them. We've all looked at our dice and said to ourselves "anything but a 1".
I for one was disappointed in the War Drums figures for the pool of Chaotic figures that we got. There was a power creep from Angelfire and it continued even further into Underdark but dropped off for War Drums (sans a few pieces which are interestingly enough Lawful). Every Chaotic figure that could be effective is also insanely costed and most good players will be making the distinction to not play them after testing them out. Come on how could anyone think the WarDuke is worth his absurd cost?! I'm not saying most of the set sucks but the figures are just okay. There are some cool little pieces but nothing special that is as altering to the metagame as Helmed Horror is. I am hoping that some of these figures will turn out to be of use and make for games that won't be so dull as playing or playing against Helmed Horrors is.
R~ | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 11:17 AM |
| Guys, the Drider and the Helmed Horror are in vastly different categories.
The Drider REALLY DID create a problem in-game ... all that looking around, measuring, checking to see where the transpositions could happen, etc. were an issue.
The Helmed Horror is just a good piece. If it didn't exist folks would be complaining about some other piece being near the top of the heap. There HAS to be pieces that are better than others ... and just because something is better doesn't make it a problem. | |
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XAos
Underboss
2390 Posts
London
| | 03/09/2006 11:21 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sean-Khan
And your claim about Balor - it's been said to be maybe the best unit against Horrors....
Yes that has been said. And no, it's not true. Whoever said Balors were good against HH. Clearly didn't consider casting magic weapons on the HH's. One balor V's 2 HH with magic weapon is an easy win for the HHs.
quote:
Originally posted by Sean-Khan
Still, they aren't invincible. For example, two night hags would be almost impossible to win with two Horrors.
At first glance Night Hag certainly looks like a "golden bullet" against the HH. DR, resist fire & ray of enfeeblement, looks perfect. However detailed analysis puts them at the short end of the odds. If the HH have magic weapon.
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Don't worry about the current metagame. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, bad, or the best ever. In 2 years time, set rotation will ban everything. | |
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wildger
Sneak
67 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 11:31 AM |
| | I play mainly in the 500 point environment. HH is a good piece but far far from dominating. | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 11:32 AM |
| Yes, the Helmed Horror should be banned. Send all of your illegal and useless Helmed Horrors to me, I'll find something to do with them. [:D]
Seriously, the HH just isn't that tough. When I'm building an LE band, of course I want to be sure to include at least one, it's a no-brainer. But the same goes for the Orc Champ in CE, the Frenzerker in CG, or the Couatl in LG.
An OC needs 4 hits to kill an HH. An HH needs 3 hits to force morale on the OC, 6 to kill it outright.
An FB needs 4 hits to kill an HH. An HH needs 5-6 hits to kill the FB, depending on burnout.
There are other factors, of course. The point is, it's better to build a band that can handle HHs than to eliminate them from the scene. | | | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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orcmonk220
Underboss
1608 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 11:36 AM |
| Sure, it's a good piece. Yes, it is very powerful, and man, do I hate it. but lets slow down a minute and look at it is a productive and easy way.
The Helmed Horror (HH), as far as I can see, is simply a nasty piece. We've seen nasty pieces before, but there are still warbands out there that can beat them down. I do feel HH warbands are a slight bandwagon jump, but when is a good idea not? The HH phase will pass, but until them a few warbands will work.
I'm now going to break down the pieces I feel are competetive, listing why, and why they may fall.
LG
Couatl - Dropping the Flight can really give the Helmed Horrors a nasty shock. Flight makes them difficult to defend against. You also gain energy resistance here, and extra attack.
Justicator - +17/+12 beats the Helmed Horror, and that can result in 30 magic damage. Also, melee reach means they have to move in.
Marut - A solid unit, with great damage potential, but needs a magic weapon and snakes swiftness to use well.
Mounted Paladin - Too overlooked, imho. With smite, you can get 30 damage off, and still retreat quick enough to avoid strikes.
Warforged Bodyguard - Has potential to defend your units, with reinforced 5.
CG
Rikka - An ideal unit to take them down, the damage output is decent.
Aspect of Kord - Nasty damage output, but could really do with a second attack.
Crow Shaman - A tech piece with Snakes Swiftness. He's pretty handy.
Wand Expert - Able to kick out a load of damage to the HH from a safe distance, and grant MW
Rask - Great damage and bonuses from a safe distance
LE
Aspect of Hextor - Nasty damage here with reliable attack bonuses.
Fire Giant - If your willing to pay, thenthere's some nasty damage to be had.
Helmed Horror - Nothing like fighting fire with fire
Slugurth - The Disorienting presence can really hurt the HH
Lord Soth - A potential fireball and serious damage output.
Justicator
CE
Hill Giant Barbarian - Damage, Damage, Damage.
Fiendish Girallon - Can hurt if he hits both times.
Balor - Surprisingly effective, but losing Vicious Attack is a blow.
orc Champion - A low chance for second attack, but is worth trying.
So, as you can see, there are many pieces out there that can hurt the HH, and a lot of chances to win.
In closing, while the Helmed Horror is good, it's not the best around. Play around, and try to locate a weakness. And remember...
The player makes the pieces!
Chris, dishing out 0.02 cents since 2006
[:)] | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 11:37 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
...CE Quads w/ Warchanter...
He means Wardrummer. It's hard to think straight with all this chanting and drumming and carrying on. | | | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4462 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 11:40 AM |
| We need to keep in mind that the Drider was not banned wholly because it was deemed to be to good a value (in play) for the points.
It led to stalling tactics, and slow play, which took away from the competitive spirit of the game.
Was it highly effective for its cost? Yes. Proof of this can be found by the simple fact that they didn't "only" ban it from CE (i.e Drider would be great in LE via the Red Wizard, no?), but banned it all together.
The helmed horror is a pain in the arse. I too have spent a good deal of time thinking about it, because the meta in my area is heavy with it. Just as in the past the LSD was strong in some area's, and the Gauth was as well.
Gauth is a great example. At the time of its release, the call went out to ban. The solution however was a reemergence of 2 figures: Gold Champion, and Azer Raider's. Dual Gold Champ bands helped to stamp out the Gauth.
Do we still see Dual Champ bands? NO
Do we still see Gauth's? Yes, but not in the same numbers....
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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striderlotr
Commander
3370 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 11:59 AM |
| I think that banning in general is a bad idea. I also think that WotC will be slow to ban any other figures unless they see a similiar problem with the game. As Pat said, the figure was banned for a variety of reasons, not just for the point cost. The Helmed Hoor has some great abilities, but to think that it is the end all be all in every band is wrong. People will build bands just to beat it eventually.
I say, let's be slow to want to ban any more figures, but find ways to beat them instaed. | |
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Champion of Elementals
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Gnolaum
Sergeant
854 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 12:09 PM |
| | People who call for bannings should be banned [:D] | |
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 12:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by One_Wing
In fact, my main complaint with the Horrors apart from how good they are is how many pieces they make useless. Lets just have a quick look from the last three sets:
Balor; No enslave, no fun
Oh, wow, you're right. Enslave doesn't work on the Helmed Horrors. All the Balor can do is sit there and take 5 damage a swing from them. He's totally doomed.
Wasn't there a "how to beat Helmed Horrors" thread about a month ago? Any chance we could get that stickied? | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 12:21 PM |
| Helmed Horrors have alot of problem matches up with Wardrums and the new maps. They are a great figure but not the be all end all by any means.
For newer players this is where we share the story of the off-season. Last off-season from quals when Aberrations came out, Inspired Frenzy came to be and it became common thought that it would win every tourney from there out and it would own the world etc. It didnt happen, the Drider ban contributed to it, new figures contributed to it, but overall IF did ok at quals getting a few IF bands through but it wasnt broke. Off-season tournaments are a weird thing to judge by, though I think with the opens this one has been more competitive than the previous one. There is no way the Helmed Horror needs banned based on any of this data. I appreciate that you forumlated your thoughts and arguments well instead of just saying BAN. But it is not something that needs to happen. | |
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Wish
Sergeant
399 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 12:21 PM |
| | I've been having my best results with a LE quad band that doesn't even include a helmed horror (HH). I'm running two duergar champs (DC), an efreeti and a chraal. I've experimented with versions that include a helmed horror (though never more than one) and I find I like the versions without the HH better. If I drop one of the DCs for the HH, I find I'm almost compelled to include a dark moon monk or kobold sorcerer to start ramping up the magic weapons and all of a sudden I'm out of points. If I drop the efreeti, I miss his ranged threat and higher damage output. If I drop the chraal I miss the breath weapon and large blocking base. | | | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 12:21 PM |
| I like to chime in every time this debate comes up...
Helmed Horrors are strong creatures. If you're going to a tournament, you can bet that they are going to show up, and you'd better have a plan for dealing with them. Your plan may be as simple as I hope I don't get matched against them, or you could build a HH hate band. However, if you expect to win any tournament, you either gotta be lucky, or you have to consider ALL the potential warbands you'll face.
Planning for Helmed Horrors is no different from planning for Gith Monks, or Ryldfecta, or Couatl/Marut, or Archmage, or Beholder, or Chraals, etc, etc. The fact that HH's are possibly stronger and perhaps more prevalent means that you just have to put a little more weight on their consideration.
There is no perfect warband anymore. If I choose to bring a heavy spellcaster warband, and I'm matched up against a Beholder, I don't claim that Beholders are broken. I just do the best I can and hope to have a better matchup in the next round. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 1:01 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by One_Wing
So? One of my points was that people shouldn't have to build warbands with this sort of thing just in case of Helmed Horrors. It goes to show that in a helmed horror enviornment they will do well unless specifically countered.
Exactly. I don't know what makes this concept so incredibly difficult to grasp, but people completely and consistently ignore this half of the argument against Helmed Horrors.
The problem isn't just that Helmed Horrors are incredibly strong, the problem is that they are so strong that they (1) force out many otherwise viable and interesting pieces, and (2) absolutely force any seriously competitive player to build against them. Not "build with them in mind;" actually "build against them." (And, yes, being forced to pack the Dragon Shrine when it's not actually a good map for your warband is being forced to build against Helmed Horrors.)
If for no other reason than it's boring, that's a good reason to do something about Helmed Horrors. There is a difference between League Night play, and even four- to six-person "fun" tournaments, and the true competition ramping up to Nationals, which is when the players who really want to win are going to break out their triple- and quad-Horror bands.
I'm pretty sure that what's going to happen is that Helmed Horrors are going to utterly dominate many qualifiers, at which point the folks who don't quite grok their dominance right now will say one of two things: (1) "Oh, but they didn't face a field designed to nerf them," or (2) "Gosh, who could have anticipated this?" | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 1:42 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
Exactly. I don't know what makes this concept so incredibly difficult to grasp, but people completely and consistently ignore this half of the argument against Helmed Horrors.
The problem isn't just that Helmed Horrors are incredibly strong, the problem is that they are so strong that they (1) force out many otherwise viable and interesting pieces, and (2) absolutely force any seriously competitive player to build against them.
Don't think it's being ignored, and certainly not because folks don't grasp the concept. People here *defined* the concept of what makes a piece "bad" for the game, namely that it too greatly limits viable warbands.
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grifter100
Skirmisher
48 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 2:09 PM |
| If I had a cookie for every "BAN this-and-that" thread, I´d be...well, not exactly rich, but...well...I´d have more cookies then I do now anyway...
I think I´ll go get some cookies now. Unless them damned Helmed Horrors have eaten them all up again...I tell you, they just ruin EVERYTHING!
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| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 2:16 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
I'm pretty sure that what's going to happen is that Helmed Horrors are going to utterly dominate many qualifiers, at which point the folks who don't quite grok their dominance right now will say one of two things: (1) "Oh, but they didn't face a field designed to nerf them," or (2) "Gosh, who could have anticipated this?"
Yes, you are right. Helmed Horrors are dominant and everyone who says otherwise is ignorant of that fact. [:D] | |
I am not gone. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 2:22 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by One_Wing
So? One of my points was that people shouldn't have to build warbands with this sort of thing just in case of Helmed Horrors. It goes to show that in a helmed horror enviornment they will do well unless specifically countered.
Exactly. I don't know what makes this concept so incredibly difficult to grasp, but people completely and consistently ignore this half of the argument against Helmed Horrors.
Not ignoring it ... rather trying to apply some perspective. There have been a number of pieces that affected warband construction in this way ... and they have all dropped a bit by the wayside. A new set was JUST released, breathing new life into CE. Fearless (or nearly so with the Wardrummer) CE pieces w/ lots of damage output or resist damage have yet to be taken against the multi-HH bands.
Frankly, not very many people are running multiple Helmed Horrors ... and most of the folks in the top XX DCI ratings are actively testing OTHER things at this point.
I'm advocating a bit more of a wait and see attitude.
WF Bodyguards, Maruts, multi-FB w/ Rikka, new CE quads/LRD bands, near-fearless LE bands are all things that I know are being tested.
Helmed Horrors are/were one of the pieces to beat in the previous set ... but I think Duergar Champs, Maruts and Kobold Miners will have a longer-term life. Where are the multi-Chraal bands now? | |
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Draxle
Sneak
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