One_Wing
Sergeant
494 Posts
    
London
 | | 03/09/2006 2:46 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Helmed Horrors are/were one of the pieces to beat in the previous set ... but I think Duergar Champs, Maruts and Kobold Miners will have a longer-term life. Where are the multi-Chraal bands now?
Killed by the ultimate flying commander assassins. | |
Thousands of Zulu's, behind You!
Proud member of PK's team low tier beasting; CG for ever!
Champion of the Dragon Disciple | |
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Gristlemane
Sergeant
623 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 2:50 PM |
| | I'd really like to see a CG arcane trickster with a couple casts of blur, energy protection and then the golem strike spell. That would fix those horrors. And if the trickster is a gnome I will have to prostrate myself before a shrine of the great Shubert. | |
It's deja vu all over again. | |
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Eliminator53
Sergeant
628 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 2:55 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Not ignoring it ... rather trying to apply some perspective. There have been a number of pieces that affected warband construction in this way ... and they have all dropped a bit by the wayside. A new set was JUST released, breathing new life into CE. Fearless (or nearly so with the Wardrummer) CE pieces w/ lots of damage output or resist damage have yet to be taken against the multi-HH bands.
Frankly, not very many people are running multiple Helmed Horrors ... and most of the folks in the top XX DCI ratings are actively testing OTHER things at this point.
I'm advocating a bit more of a wait and see attitude.
WF Bodyguards, Maruts, multi-FB w/ Rikka, new CE quads/LRD bands, near-fearless LE bands are all things that I know are being tested.
Helmed Horrors are/were one of the pieces to beat in the previous set ... but I think Duergar Champs, Maruts and Kobold Miners will have a longer-term life. Where are the multi-Chraal bands now?
Exactly, once the pieces from wardrums have found thier place in the current meta, the helmed horror won't be as abundant. I for one only know of three or four people in my area that have used them, and even then the most in one warband was two. Things will change as they always do. | |
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Knight of Knights
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Somethin-or-another of Big Arse Swords | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 3:18 PM |
| I don't buy that the fact that we have to take HH's into account when building warbands translates into 'the piece is broken.'
There are a lot of pieces we have to take into account when building warbands.
Locally if you built a tournament warband without considering how you were going to deal with death slaads, I would say you're not thinking ahead very well - but is the death slaad a dominant, broken piece? | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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PatEllis15
Commander
4462 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 3:27 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
Helmed Horrors have alot of problem matches up with Wardrums and the new maps. They are a great figure but not the be all end all by any means.
For newer players this is where we share the story of the off-season. Last off-season from quals when Aberrations came out, Inspired Frenzy came to be and it became common thought that it would win every tourney from there out and it would own the world etc. It didnt happen, the Drider ban contributed to it, new figures contributed to it, but overall IF did ok at quals getting a few IF bands through but it wasnt broke. Off-season tournaments are a weird thing to judge by, though I think with the opens this one has been more competitive than the previous one. There is no way the Helmed Horror needs banned based on any of this data. I appreciate that you forumlated your thoughts and arguments well instead of just saying BAN. But it is not something that needs to happen.
Heh... to put this in greater perspective, IF was actually the "end" of the development cycle for Aberrations. The reality is that "Malice HEBI", and "Guerilla Warefare" were the the squad's thought to be "uber" dominant.
They didn't even last till Deathknell, Malice HEBI in particular.
Pat E | |
"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 3:29 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I don't buy that the fact that we have to take HH's into account when building warbands translates into 'the piece is broken.'
There are a lot of pieces we have to take into account when building warbands.
Locally if you built a tournament warband without considering how you were going to deal with death slaads, I would say you're not thinking ahead very well - but is the death slaad a dominant, broken piece?
The same thing applies to considering how you would deal with fast heavy-damage beaters. Are fast heavy-damage beaters broken? No. Are they forcing certain creatures out of the metagame? Yes. Every single competitive creature forces something else out of the metagame. Should we whine because borderline-competitive or poor creatures aren't in the metagame? Well, you are perfectly allowed to, but you shouldn't be too surprised when other people are less tha impressed. | |
I am not gone. | |
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 3:37 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
I don't buy that the fact that we have to take HH's into account when building warbands translates into 'the piece is broken.'
There are a lot of pieces we have to take into account when building warbands.
Locally if you built a tournament warband without considering how you were going to deal with death slaads, I would say you're not thinking ahead very well - but is the death slaad a dominant, broken piece?
Wow. I'm glad death slaadi are actually recognized locally. It's a really great piece (I think). I have an odd obsession over it. I KNOW Aravis is partial to them as well.
Helmed Horrors... I get the feeling that the next Endgame tourney will see a few, now that the speed 2 rule is gone. It's certainly something to watch out for... but 45 points really is a deal-breaker. It's cheap for what it does, sure. But ignoring the commonly accepted definition of "efficiency" for a second, there aren't many mid-point beaters more expensive. If I lose a HH, and my opponent ends up with one dead Orc Champ, and another injured Red Sam, he still wins when time is called. This means I gotta go hunting (forcing me to be active).
I don't see much stopping an opponent from withdrawing before time is called... and I hate using timing to my advantage. It just feels sleezy. So no multi-HH bands for me (ignoring the fact that I don't have multiples of it anyway). | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 3:54 PM |
| I'd be really surprised if multi-HH took more than a handful of tournaments. Every faction has ways of dealing with them, often toolkit-based ways of doing so. And there's enough hate out there for these Helmed Horrors that someone'll run a anti-HH band just to prove a point, I'm sure.
LG can use the Couatl + Aramil to shut them down. Toss in a Justicator and Justice Archon and you've probably got it. Not sure if this is an optimal LG band in general, but it'd certainly deal with the multi-Helmed Horror problem.
CG has several DR figures in the 30-point range; Rikka and the Pegasus come to mind. Elf Pyromancer can give you resistances. Brass Samurai has an applicable resistance too, and at +13/+13/+8 (or 15/15/10 with a flank, which CG can easily, casually get) you'll be pouring on the pain. Add in Aramil for even better results.
LE...well, LE can run Helmed Horrors, I guess. I don't play LE so I'm not too familiar with them beyond their Top Tier pieces. But they're who's "on trial" here anyway, or rather one of their pieces is.
The possible new forms of CE Quad using the WarDrummer look promising. I haven't run CE Quad in any form, I don't play CE at all. But just looking at the math, there's some beaters who, with their newly gained ability to make morale saves...have pretty good odds against the Horrors.
Helmed Horrors are strong pieces, but even with the removal of the speed 2 rule I'm not so sure they'll be ungodly powerful, if they ever were to begin with. There's ways of dealing with them. It's unfortunate that one of them is "Map Choice", but this same map also shuts down Chraals, so I'm not going to weep over it much. Definitely no need to ban the Helmed Horror. | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 4:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Gristlemane
I'd really like to see a CG arcane trickster with a couple casts of blur, energy protection and then the golem strike spell. That would fix those horrors. And if the trickster is a gnome I will have to prostrate myself before a shrine of the great Shubert.
Here Here!
I'm gonna say no to the ban.
Banning is silly, and for one reason, the designers already have 2 sets in pre-production. We don't know whats coming down the road, Modron Artificer?, Arcane Trickster?, something with Construct Bane? It's fun to guesstimate. History shows us one thing though, the designers are REALLY good at balancing the scales. I don't know why the Drider was banned, probobly the ridiculously low point cost, it was before my time. Not one piece since I started playing has maintained dominance though. They all are "reckoned" with in the next 6 months.
I think the thing that has already hurt the HH is the speed 2 Rule. No longer can they go commander hunting and then switch to keep away. At least in my experience the Trip and Quad HH bands were playing point denial and thats really not fun. Now they have to fight and they aren't doing stellar damage all by their lonesome. I'll agree that this might be the most aggressively costed piece of '05 but it's along way from broken.
As to HAVING to build against them, I'm fine with that. This is their Achilles Heel, they are too good. So everyone is thinking to counter them and most of thier counters work against other pieces (as Orcmonk220 showed). If they really become that prevalent in 3 months they are gonna have a tough path to champion status.
As an example last night I beat a better player running Quad Horror with a decidedly NON tier -1 band.
Warduke
new Tiefling
Blood ghost Berserker
my purple Girallion
some trogs
I wanted to play new figures, and he is still obsessed with the HH. I did get A crit with WD, so luck played a part. The speed thing killed him. No more "keep away".
Let us wait till Dairy Queen cometh, before banning. My gut says new goodness will steal the HH thunder.
Till then go with Pegasus Knight's strategy;Mervin! | |
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forkedmoon
Underboss
1305 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 4:28 PM |
| Adapt and conquer.
Sure HHs are one of the bands you will have top contend with if you want a top spot but so are the bands being designed to drop them. The new CE with great saves, the whirlwinding CG, etc., etc.
Time will tell where we go and what dominates this season. If we look back throught he seasons has any piece been top all the time? To me it appears only one. Orc Champion. Now I am a newer player so I haven't experienced the metagame transitions but no piece other than the OC has been a continual part of the championship scene.
While it would be great to see a wide variety of figures and bands in championships, I don't this has ever really been true. Wasn't last year the year of the Chraal? Maybe this year will be the year of the helmed horror but I doubt it. | |
Champion of Cyclops
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alepulp
Underboss
1536 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 03/09/2006 4:35 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Prince o the Raven Banner
quote:
Originally posted by Gristlemane
I'd really like to see a CG arcane trickster with a couple casts of blur, energy protection and then the golem strike spell. That would fix those horrors. And if the trickster is a gnome I will have to prostrate myself before a shrine of the great Shubert.
Here Here!
I'm gonna say no to the ban.
Banning is silly, and for one reason, the designers already have 2 sets in pre-production. We don't know whats coming down the road, Modron Artificer?, Arcane Trickster?, something with Construct Bane? It's fun to guesstimate. History shows us one thing though, the designers are REALLY good at balancing the scales. I don't know why the Drider was banned, probobly the ridiculously low point cost, it was before my time. Not one piece since I started playing has maintained dominance though. They all are "reckoned" with in the next 6 months.
I think the thing that has already hurt the HH is the speed 2 Rule. No longer can they go commander hunting and then switch to keep away. At least in my experience the Trip and Quad HH bands were playing point denial and thats really not fun. Now they have to fight and they aren't doing stellar damage all by their lonesome. I'll agree that this might be the most aggressively costed piece of '05 but it's along way from broken.
As to HAVING to build against them, I'm fine with that. This is their Achilles Heel, they are too good. So everyone is thinking to counter them and most of thier counters work against other pieces (as Orcmonk220 showed). If they really become that prevalent in 3 months they are gonna have a tough path to champion status.
As an example last night I beat a better player running Quad Horror with a decidedly NON tier -1 band.
Warduke
new Tiefling
Blood ghost Berserker
my purple Girallion
some trogs
I wanted to play new figures, and he is still obsessed with the HH. I did get A crit with WD, so luck played a part. The speed thing killed him. No more "keep away".
Let us wait till Dairy Queen cometh, before banning. My gut says new goodness will steal the HH thunder.
Till then go with Pegasus Knight's strategy;Mervin!
I assume you remembered that as a construct, the crit damage didn't get doubled [)] | |
One of these days WoTC will update their tournament page when I'm in the top 5... they never seem to do when I'm in that bracket :(
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True_Blue
Underboss
2385 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 4:54 PM |
| HH's will probably always be used, until there is more construct and fearless hate that is released. I'd personally like to see more hate in those two areas, so they arent so popular in the metagame. But, others seem not to have one problem with it, so its all good. It seems like Morale is happening less and less, in my opinion. You have several fearless peices, commander 6's, tyrannical morale, the new wardrummer, etc.
*edit* I do think the use of 3-4 HH's will go down drastically tho. But you will still have to contend with 1-2 for awhile I think. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 5:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
Helmed Horrors have alot of problem matches up with Wardrums and the new maps. They are a great figure but not the be all end all by any means.
For newer players this is where we share the story of the off-season. Last off-season from quals when Aberrations came out, Inspired Frenzy came to be and it became common thought that it would win every tourney from there out and it would own the world etc. It didnt happen, the Drider ban contributed to it, new figures contributed to it, but overall IF did ok at quals getting a few IF bands through but it wasnt broke. Off-season tournaments are a weird thing to judge by, though I think with the opens this one has been more competitive than the previous one. There is no way the Helmed Horror needs banned based on any of this data. I appreciate that you forumlated your thoughts and arguments well instead of just saying BAN. But it is not something that needs to happen.
Heh... to put this in greater perspective, IF was actually the "end" of the development cycle for Aberrations. The reality is that "Malice HEBI", and "Guerilla Warefare" were the the squad's thought to be "uber" dominant.
They didn't even last till Deathknell, Malice HEBI in particular.
Pat E
Ahh yes, Malice HEBI died off pretty quick. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 5:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
Just wait until the commander effect "+5 damage against fearless creaturs" or "+10 damage versus constructs" shows up ...
See, that's what I'm afraid of.
The problem isn't "fearless creatures." There's nothing wrong with the Frenzied Berzerker or The Blood Ghost Berzerker or -- God knows -- most of the undead. And the problem isn't "constructs." There's nothing wrong with the Iron Golem or the Marut or -- God knows -- most of the warforged.
The problem is the Helmed Horror. And I'm worried that because the Helmed Horror is so clearly an overpowered piece, somebody in Development is going to do exactly what you suggest here: unnecessarily screw with entire classes of pieces in order to fix one.
Should the Helmed Horror be banned? My gut says no, perhaps because I was an was old-time Magic player, and perhaps because -- aside from being ridiculously cheap for its abilities -- it really doesn't have the kind of in-game drawbacks that a truly troublesome piece like the Drider has.
I am not a Chicken Little. I did not trumpet the brokenness or call for the banning of any of the pieces mentioned in posts above.All of them have clear weaknesses ... weaknesses that can be exploited without fundamentally altering otherwise competitive warbands. And none of them, claims to the contrary notwithstanding, have forced dozens and dozens of otherwise viable pieces out of warband consideration.
The Helmed Horror has no weaknesses, and it singlehandedly eliminates dozens of otherwise viable pieces from competitive play.
Banned? No. But something needs to be done about it. It's just a damned shame it's going to take four months, at least. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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Zyla
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 5:52 PM |
| | Maps will also play a big part in how HH does | |
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nedleeds
Warrior
239 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 5:55 PM |
| | I have 7 (!!!) HH's ... I am tempted to try quad horror but am more enthralled at the moment with the Z-Rak. How about 3 x Z-Rak, Rak, and a Duegar Champ vs. HH. 18 points of fodder for 3 activations. l-Rak and the D-Champ both have a decent shot at hitting on both swings. | |
Champion of Zarak - Evil Half-Orc Assassin | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 5:56 PM |
| I guess if you wanted to go extreme on it, one could introduce a specific Helmed Horror 'hate piece'. Something that doesn't hose the other categories, but does single out Helmed Horrors by name on their card and goes to town on 'em.
Dunno how viable that'd be, or how to make it work in D&D RPG mechanics, but that's one possibility. | |
- Irrationally Fanatical Champion of Pegasus-mounted cavalry
- Proud member of Team Low Tier Beasting: I play CG as my main faction!
- Garland, TX 2006 Qualifier Champion
My trading thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19725 | |
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Zyla
Underboss
1189 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 5:58 PM |
| | There is a HH hate piece, its called the Dwarf Artificer with its rust construct spell, bad thing is it only has 1 casting of Rust construct. | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 6:05 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Pegasus Knight
I guess if you wanted to go extreme on it, one could introduce a specific Helmed Horror 'hate piece'. Something that doesn't hose the other categories, but does single out Helmed Horrors by name on their card and goes to town on 'em.
If it were otherwise a decent piece for the cost, that one possibility, although somewhat unsatisfying (as I think you feel also).
One possibility might be some spell, ability, or commander effect that can slap "Requires Instruction" on a construct (no save, but SR applies). (SR and the fact that it usually has a commander protects the Marut, and SR All protects many other non-trouble pieces.) | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 6:11 PM |
| They could introduce duplicates hate like they have in MTG. I remember trying out an MTG draft a few months ago, and they have quite a few cards that attempt to hose decks with multiple duplicates (high redundancy).
R&D could make something similar to the WF Captain:
"Name one creature at the start of skirmish. Followers get +5 melee and ranged damage against any creatures with that name."
Or make it a special ability:
"Name one creature at the start of skirmish. All creatures get +5 melee and ranged damage against any other creatures with that name."
This punishes redundancy, and deters warbands that saturate themselves with a single efficient piece.
~John | |
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Eliminator53
Sergeant
628 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 6:12 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
[quote]Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
The Helmed Horror has no weaknesses, and it singlehandedly eliminates dozens of otherwise viable pieces from competitive play.
Everything in this game has one weakness, bad die rolls. If you don't hit any and the oppostion hits a lot you got problems. The Aspect of Kord looks like he can do a pretty good job of knocking out helmed horrors, as with some of the other titans out there. I know they are more exspensive but when you have to go up against more support pieces w/ them, the floor is evened out a bit more. | |
Champion of Tavern Stripper
Knight of Knights
Squire of Death Giants
Somethin-or-another of Big Arse Swords | |
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nasamonkey
Warrior
296 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 6:14 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
quote:
Originally posted by PatEllis15
quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
Helmed Horrors have alot of problem matches up with Wardrums and the new maps. They are a great figure but not the be all end all by any means.
For newer players this is where we share the story of the off-season. Last off-season from quals when Aberrations came out, Inspired Frenzy came to be and it became common thought that it would win every tourney from there out and it would own the world etc. It didnt happen, the Drider ban contributed to it, new figures contributed to it, but overall IF did ok at quals getting a few IF bands through but it wasnt broke. Off-season tournaments are a weird thing to judge by, though I think with the opens this one has been more competitive than the previous one. There is no way the Helmed Horror needs banned based on any of this data. I appreciate that you forumlated your thoughts and arguments well instead of just saying BAN. But it is not something that needs to happen.
Heh... to put this in greater perspective, IF was actually the "end" of the development cycle for Aberrations. The reality is that "Malice HEBI", and "Guerilla Warefare" were the the squad's thought to be "uber" dominant.
They didn't even last till Deathknell, Malice HEBI in particular.
Pat E
Ahh yes, Malice HEBI died off pretty quick.
What's "Malice HEBÏ''? i just got back into minis again.i know HEBI,but whats the Malice bit?
CHEERS
P.s. i think the helmed horror should stay,so it gives the game designers more challenge in the next set to bring interesting figures to weaken this build.like a rust monster perhaps...aaahhh.... | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 6:15 PM |
| Wayne: bring the nastiest HH band you can make on Friday, I'm curious to see what the results are. I think in terms of our local metagame that the HH has not shown much in terms of being a dominant piece, which makes me wonder why you're so concerned about it.
The dominant LE bands locally have typically been duergar champion centered it seems to me. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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neilasaurus
Sneak
134 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 6:21 PM |
| Heh with Wardrums I was beginning to wonder if Helmed Horrors would even be Tier 1 anymore. I guess some people think so. I dislike the thought of losing map and side initiative for some reason with helmed horrors now, and since one of the better commander synergies for them is only Commander 3... A figure that can easily end up hitting for 5 damage needs to be banned? My bet for thing most likely to end up banned is not a figure but a map, guess which one? (Hint: It pretty much does what the Drider Sorcerer was banned for, slow down game as you consider a million different possibilities. Also seems like it cancels out the removal of the Speed 2 rule. Although I shudder to think of playing that map with the Speed 2 rule. Be lucky to get through 1 round in an hour.)
The figure that troubles me the most is the Orc Wardrummer. But I am keeping an open mind. Seems like you are a fool not to take it if playing CE. And anyone else might as well forget about taking any nondamaging spells or special abilities that arent at least DC 20. Unless the thought of paralyzing stuff with 5 hit points really excites you.
All this helmed horror hate, calls for banning, and the dragon shrine map, really confuse me. Almost as much as the Khumat love. To my chagrin a band including a Khumat won the release tournament I played in. Although that was in part due to its secret ability to cause opponents to add up the score wrong. And I think the Hill Giant Barbarian had more to do with the bands victories than the Khumat.
I wish someone would explain to me how both the Helmed Horror can be so good that you are a fool to play any band that doesnt have 4 of them, and also a Khumat is Tier 1. That seems like quite a paradox to me. | |
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John05
Warrior
246 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 6:24 PM |
| | Multi-HH isn't as popular in our local metagame because Derry seems partial to the Red Sam lately... [:p] | |
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DDM Australian Champion 2005
psistef
Underboss
1572 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 6:50 PM |
| Just some thoughts on this thread.
Calls to ban are nothing new. Happens every set. Wait it out.
For example, we've already had calls that the Wardrummer is broken, as the ability it adds to CE makes it seem like an auto-include. As LE bands see their special abilities fail, we'll see more calls.
As an aside, the Wardrumer is a Marshall, and that is awesome. Truley creative design.
There's always figs that are pushed out of the meta. I lovelovelove spellcasters. I find them some of the most challenging and satisfying pieces in the game. Sure, I was upset to see the Gauth come along to fry them, but I got over it. Then the Couatl ruined their auto-damage. Worked out. Beholders made them 50 per cent useless. Bugger.
Despite all this, I still played the Archmage heavily. In doing so, I of course had to deal with people saying he was 'broken'. [:)]
The circle of life my friends.
Of course, the thing that squeezes out most figs is better figs. People get upset when a fig's abilities shut down certain other abilities, but accept that high-damage beaters shut down evey figure in the game with 60hp or less [generalising]. This is the same, but understood.
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Champion of the Prestige Class where mages focus on telekenesis and start throwing people into the ceiling and uber stuff like that.
Desirer of a Commander Effect in CG that grants Sidestep to followers with a ranged attack. | |
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Void
Sneak
156 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 7:14 PM |
| | Wouldn't FB based bands (maybe even with 2 FB and a warforged barbarian) on the Dragon Temple (or whatever the elemental resist map is called) have quite the good game vs HHs? And with a command rating difference of 4, the IF band would get to choose map and side quite often. But then again, things have been *supposed* to beat HHs before... | |
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frogrodeo
Sergeant
706 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 8:16 PM |
| I don't think the HH needs to be banned any more than the Gith Monk or the much feared and hated _(insert nasty piece of the month)___.
Good, yes. Great, yup it can be. Unbeatable? Nope.
thats my 3 coppers | |
Champion of Remorhaz, and the Mighty Goblin Frog Riders | |
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Balduran I
Sergeant
404 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 8:53 PM |
| | It'll be interesting to see how new Chaotic (Fear No) Evil bands will work out vs. HH. Assasinating the Wardrummer with HH will be no mean feat; the effort to get three hits on it will demand commiting more than one, and each round spent moving to get there is a round you're not doing 30 damage to the beaters. Which are, of course, beating on them (die willing). | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1344 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 8:59 PM |
| | I think the HH does have weaknesses, namely the non-magic damage and the fire damage. Including creatures with DR and/or fire resistance and/or using the Dragon Shrine map is just a good idea nowadays. Doing so exploits the weaknesses of HHs without the need for creating a hate band. | | | |
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minatoman38
Underboss
1346 Posts
Minaniuonuma-shi, Japan
| | 03/09/2006 9:05 PM |
| I don't think anyone is our local game has more than one Helmed horror and there are only two of us who are fond of using multiples of the same figures. (I like using effective multiples like double orc champions or double frenzied berserkers and he likes using odd multiples like 5 gibbering mouthers or minotaur squads)
The only times I've faced the helmed horror it was on its own in very mixed squads and they just didn't have to damage output to be competitive. Before maps we almost always played 4 man games with first to 140 points the winner. This has meant being able to get in there fast and hit hard is the secret to winning. I've found I can pretty much ignore the helmed horrors and go after the meatier guys for quick (but sometimes painful) points.
Admitly he does look like a worrying piece. | |
Robert Rosehart
Champion of the pixie
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northking
Skirmisher
20 Posts
| | 03/09/2006 10:07 PM |
| | Helmed Horrors banned? Can't see why. Maybe I'm playing them wrong or something, but they can't take out my friend's Gith Monk band. I can barely hit one at AC 28 (after buffs), damage them to decent effect (after Aramil's RoE's & Couatl) or run away and claim tile points (spd 6 vs spd 10?). With a Dwarf Artificer going around and Rusting my HH's, I barely have a strike force once they are done. Ban the Gith Monk, I say![)] | |
positive trades: rav950 | |
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Wayne
Underboss
1371 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 1:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by northking
Maybe I'm playing them wrong or something, but they can't take out my friend's Gith Monk band.
Yeah, if you can't take out a Gith Monk band with Helmed Horrors, you're playing them wrong. They're just about the worst thing a Gith Monk band can face. | |
Jeff "Wayne Laredo" Wilder | Email | Have/Want List | Trade Policies | Are You an Ethical Trader?
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True_Blue
Underboss
2385 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 3:25 AM |
| I really dont think banning things help us out much in the long run anyways. Unless bands that dont feature the peice cant win, banning shouldnt really happen much. I realize some peices are stronger than others, but even if you got rid of those, then a whole new crop of great peices would be there. And then ppl would talk about banning them.
I'd just like to see the game keep evolving with newer peices that make other ones maybe not so good, or have potential bad matchups.
I just dont think the HH is in the area of needing to be gotten rid of. | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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alepulp
Underboss
1536 Posts
Manchester, England
| | 03/10/2006 3:43 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by northking
Maybe I'm playing them wrong or something, but they can't take out my friend's Gith Monk band.
Yeah, if you can't take out a Gith Monk band with Helmed Horrors, you're playing them wrong. They're just about the worst thing a Gith Monk band can face.
This is very true... | |
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grifter100
Skirmisher
48 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 4:31 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by alepulp
quote:
Originally posted by Wayne
quote:
Originally posted by northking
Maybe I'm playing them wrong or something, but they can't take out my friend's Gith Monk band.
Yeah, if you can't take out a Gith Monk band with Helmed Horrors, you're playing them wrong. They're just about the worst thing a Gith Monk band can face.
This is very true...
Well, he did mention the use of a Dwarf Artificer, Couatl and Aramil on the Gith´ side, so the Helmed Horrors would be doing very little to no damage at all... | |
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Humble Minion
Sneak
121 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 5:02 AM |
| I personally think the Helmed Horror should be banned from skirmish use immediately.
Why? Because that way every second skirmisher on the planet won't want four of them, and so us RPG players might have a chance of trading for one or two of the damn things!
(And on a similar note, ban the Gauth, the Marut, the Celestial Pegasus, and the Iron Golem! [)]) | |
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Trade reference thread: http://www.maxminis.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12743 | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2385 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 5:15 AM |
| | Well, banning the drider didnt exactly bring his price down heh. So I dont know how well that would work for the rest of those =] | |
Champion of a Knight of Takhisis/Knight of Neraka | |
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Sean-Khan
Commander
2717 Posts
| | 03/10/2006 5:19 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by XAos
quote:
Originally posted by Sean-Khan
And your claim about Balor - it's been said to be maybe the best unit against Horrors....
Yes that has been said. And no, it's not true. Whoever said Balors were good against HH. Clearly didn't consider casting magic weapons on the HH's. One balor V's 2 HH with magic weapon is an easy win for the HHs.
Much possible. One balor might be great against horrors, but it needs something else to support.
But again about magic weapons - a first -turn fireball, chaos hammer or other effect might well spoil everything for HH -band - possibly no damage to HH's but no magic weapons either.
quote:
Originally posted by XAos
quote:
Originally posted by Sean-Khan
Still, they aren't invincible. For example, two night hags would be almost impossible to win with two Horrors.
At first glance Night Hag certainly looks like a "golden bullet" against the HH. DR, resist fire & ray of enfeeblement, looks perfect. However detailed analysis puts them at the short end of the odds. If the HH have magic weapon.
True again, but I talked about 100pt matches and AFAIK there's no way for LE to get a magic weapon with two Horrors there.
What we REALLY need is a good piece with construct -bane. Constructs are doing almost too well right now. That way all the constructs aren't nerfed but there exists something that makes people consider again before putting up all -construct warband. | |
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