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AsmodeusDM
Skirmisher
13 Posts
    
 | | 03/14/2006 8:41 AM |
| I use the term "new" because I've been playing D&D for like 10 years and been buying the minis since Harbinger, but only for use in RPGs. We've played a couple of games here and there just for fun, but now I'm thinking about getting some more use out of this collection and playing some tournaments.
I've read the LG-Toolkit and understand their reasoning for what makes a model top-choice: low (relative) cost, high HP, high AC, ability to bring some sort of winning condition to the board.
However I was wondering what some of the common warbands you'd see in LG was?
In particular what is the "way" in which LG wins? It would seem given their slow speed, high AC, high saves, healing, high attack bonus, low damages that the idea is to just form a solid defensive position somewhere and let the enemy come to you and slowly grind them down with your consistency.
However, this seems scary in light of some of the CE-hitters out there with +12 (or higher) to hit and 30-40 damage.
Well, like I said just getting my feet wet and looking for some advice and instruction.
Thanks,
Derik M
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 8:46 AM |
| Some currently played and winning LG bands include
Couatl, Marut, Justice Archons (2 or so I think - maybe 3), Cleric of Yondalla
Couatl, Marut, Justice Archon, Warforged Bodyguard (w/ the Bodyguard providing extra HP for the Marut essentially)
Young Master, 3x Gith Monks + adjustment of your choice (fourth Gith Monk, Couatl, other fun stuff)
These are some of the most competitive LG bands right now. There are some options that use Rikka or an Aspect of Kord (in from the Couatl's Warband Building).
Anyway, that's a set of things to look at.
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Gunthar
Commander
2903 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 8:57 AM |
| | One of the biggest things to remember in a tournament format is tile/victory points. They are big and counter-intuitive to many as it's keeping one figure out of the fight. The Warforged Scout is a great piece for this as he can start on any victory area on the map. | |
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AsmodeusDM
Skirmisher
13 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 10:56 AM |
| So I'm looking at the Couatl's card ( I have 2)... what makes this guy so great?
He's 42 points so 1/5th of your warband cost
It's obviously not his commander rating or his ability to do damage
His AC and HP aren't terrible but it's not like they really mattter too much
He gives everyone resistance 10: all and can do 2 15 point damage sonic attacks.. is that really all that game winning?
How does this guy help you against the archers of CG or the huge hitters of CE?
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 03/14/2006 11:01 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AsmodeusDM
So I'm looking at the Couatl's card ( I have 2)... what makes this guy so great?
He's 42 points so 1/5th of your warband cost
It's obviously not his commander rating or his ability to do damage
His AC and HP aren't terrible but it's not like they really mattter too much
He gives everyone resistance 10: all and can do 2 15 point damage sonic attacks.. is that really all that game winning?
How does this guy help you against the archers of CG or the huge hitters of CE?
The simple answer is Snake's Switness, since the Couatl casts sorcerer spells being able to give your big hitter a potential 6 extra swings over the course of a game can make a big difference. A Marut with an extra attack a round is a dangerous thing indeed. | | | |
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AsmodeusDM
Skirmisher
13 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 11:02 AM |
| Also what makes the Gold Champion "unplayable" (as in not on the core or extended toolkit).
Other than his slow speed he seems a pretty good value for the points especially with the breath weapon. | |
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AsmodeusDM
Skirmisher
13 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 11:12 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by jacksonm
quote:
Originally posted by AsmodeusDM
So I'm looking at the Couatl's card ( I have 2)... what makes this guy so great?
He's 42 points so 1/5th of your warband cost
It's obviously not his commander rating or his ability to do damage
His AC and HP aren't terrible but it's not like they really mattter too much
He gives everyone resistance 10: all and can do 2 15 point damage sonic attacks.. is that really all that game winning?
How does this guy help you against the archers of CG or the huge hitters of CE?
The simple answer is Snake's Switness, since the Couatl casts sorcerer spells being able to give your big hitter a potential 6 extra swings over the course of a game can make a big difference. A Marut with an extra attack a round is a dangerous thing indeed.
So I see that some bands include 2 Couatls.. In RPG you cannot benefit from more then one extra attack granted by snake's swiftness per round, I take it this is not the case in DDM. Hence leading to 3 Marut attacks per round?
Also allied spells must target closest ally yes? So you would need the Marut to be the closest ally to your Couatl correct? What if distances are tied, do you just get to pick?
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
882 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 03/14/2006 11:31 AM |
| Gold Champion: The problem with this guy is its hit points and its low level of 6 for its point cost.
A number of beaters can do 30 damage in one blow, which is an immediate morale save. Much has been made in the past of hitters at 65 hit points being significantly better than those at 60 hp (like the Gold Champ), because you can take a 30-point hit and not need to make a morale save.
But with a level of only 6, you don't want a quarter of your warband routing off the board after being struck just once in melee. This is what makes the Gold Champion less effective than, say, a Red Samurai. | | | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 12:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AsmodeusDM
So I see that some bands include 2 Couatls.. In RPG you cannot benefit from more then one extra attack granted by snake's swiftness per round, I take it this is not the case in DDM. Hence leading to 3 Marut attacks per round?
Also allied spells must target closest ally yes? So you would need the Marut to be the closest ally to your Couatl correct? What if distances are tied, do you just get to pick?
Yep, the marut can benafit from as many snake's swiftness spells as you can squeeze into a warband. One of the other differences that really threw me at first between skirmish and RPG was the magic weapon spell; It stacks with an attack that already does magic damage (but not multiple castings of magic weapon).
Spells must target the nearest enemy or ally. If the distance is tied, the player controlling the caster gets to pick.
Oh, and don't worry to much about the power of CG's archers. Nobody else does, either. | |
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AsmodeusDM
Skirmisher
13 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 12:18 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Damien the Bloodfeaster
Gold Champion: The problem with this guy is its hit points and its low level of 6 for its point cost.
A number of beaters can do 30 damage in one blow, which is an immediate morale save. Much has been made in the past of hitters at 65 hit points being significantly better than those at 60 hp (like the Gold Champ), because you can take a 30-point hit and not need to make a morale save.
But with a level of only 6, you don't want a quarter of your warband routing off the board after being struck just once in melee. This is what makes the Gold Champion less effective than, say, a Red Samurai.
Is 30 then a bit of a cap in terms of max damages? | |
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AsmodeusDM
Skirmisher
13 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 12:22 PM |
| How important is it to have max activations?
Would it be better to put in 6 solid troops or drop it down to 5 and pick up 3 fodder units?
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1443 Posts
Spain
| | 03/14/2006 12:32 PM |
| The best creatures in LG are(not in order):
-cleric order
-marut
-githzerai monk
-cleric yondalla
-young master
-cleric lathander
-cleric dol arrah
-azer raider
-aspect kord (via couatl).
-large silver dragon
-dragon purple knight
-hill dwarf warrior
-aramil adventurer
-standartbearer
-justice archon
-healer
-eberk adventurer
-Rikka angelic avenger (via couatl).
-warforged scout
-iron golem (not eveybody agreed).
-Warforged bodyguard
-Gold champion (not everybody agreed).
Well,surely I have forgotten any,but theyre a lot of.... | |
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taliesin
Underboss
1113 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 12:39 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AsmodeusDM
How important is it to have max activations?
Would it be better to put in 6 solid troops or drop it down to 5 and pick up 3 fodder units?
Activation control is very important. If you only field 6 troops, and your enemy has eight, he can theoretically activate six creatures before you can respond. If you went first in the round, he gets all four of his remainig activations at the end of the round, and if he wins init the next round, two more. It's very likely he will have swarmed one of your key pieces and annihilated it, without any counterattack possible from you. | |
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Rolland
Sneak
105 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 12:45 PM |
| | Activations can be very important, because all pieces (with only a few exceptions ie - dual activation units) can only go once in around this means that if you bring fewer activations to the table your opponent can then swarm you free of retaliation after you've activated all your guys, and then gain a huge advantge if he then wins the next initiative. So that being said, most people try to bring the max # of activations 8 (or more with minions) to the table. Some builds are okay with seven activations, but most people here would suggest not going to six activations or less. | |
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AsmodeusDM
Skirmisher
13 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 1:19 PM |
| Okay let's say you bring a Marut and some Justice Archons (for damage) a Couatl for SS and resistance and maybe a commander that can heal + some others (wf bodyguard, wf scout, etc etc).
What are CG, LE, CE gonna be bringing to counter that? | |
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Zippy
Underboss
1984 Posts
Whitewater, WI
| | 03/14/2006 1:22 PM |
| Keep in mind the Couatl has sorcerer spells, meaning it can use higher level slots to cast lower level spells. That's 6 Snake's Swiftness (SS), 2 SS and 4 Empowered Sonic Orbs, or heck sometimes it's worth the Undeniable Gravity spell to try to ground a Helmed Horror or two.
Couatl's Commander Effect can be very important, especially against LE bands (Chraal, Gauth, etc.).
30 dmg / hit is not a cap. Hill Giant Barbarians do 35 (or 40 to non-larges) per hit, Aspect of Kord does 40 dmg if he activates 1st in a round, and many epic figures can top the 30 dmg per hit mark. | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
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Damien the Bloodfeaster
Sergeant
882 Posts
Portland, OR
| | 03/14/2006 2:40 PM |
| quote:
Okay let's say you bring a Marut and some Justice Archons (for damage) a Couatl for SS and resistance and maybe a commander that can heal + some others (wf bodyguard, wf scout, etc etc).
What are CG, LE, CE gonna be bringing to counter that?
All that adds up pretty quickly; you'll never be able to squeeze everything you can possibly want into a single warband.
With regard to damage caps, you should be aware that there are several grades of melee hitter in the game:
20-30 points - hitters in this category are not that popular; they are usually too weak, too low level, or don't have the hit points or staying power to last against the more potent hitters
35-45 points - this is the primary zone where DDM's main hitters reside. It includes (for LG) things like the Justice Archon, Githzerai Monk, and Warforged Hero; the Duergar Champion, Helmed Horror, Efreet, and Chraal for LE; the Orc Champion, Red Samurai, and Ogre Ravager for CE; and the Goliath Barbarian for CG. As you can see, the evil factions are best represented in this category. The best have 65+ hit points, do significant damage (generally 20+), and have a decent mix of okay saves, immunities, fast speed, etc. A warband can easily field 4-5 of these guys plus a commander and fodder units.
Then you have the 48-55 category, which includes some of the best hitters in CG--the Frenzied Berserker, and (though unproven as yet) the Wemic Barbarian and Warforged Barbarian. You can generally only field 2-3 of these guys, but they tend to be even tougher and harder hitting.
Beyond that (60+ points) you start getting into the realm of titan figures. Titans such as the Hill Giant Barbarian, Marut, etc. often can hit for 30+ damage, but they tend to be so expensive that you could just as easily get two hitters in the 35-40 point range, which can effectively increase your activations, double your damage output, etc. You also are less vulnerable to anti-Titan units like the Archmage, whose mordenkainen's sword spell can easily spell doom for a titan.
LG's best hitters are the Justice Archon (weakness = low "to hit" bonus) and Githzerai Monk (weakness = significantly less useful without the Young Master's commander effect to boost their damage). The Marut is a decent titan, with good immunities and fearlessness, but it does have relatively few hit points for its cost (a problem with many titans). Fortunately, the new Warforged Bodyguard may help offset this problem, making LG titan bands more viable. The Large Silver Dragon used to be the faction's premier titan (and LSD builds were for a time considered LG's only viable competitive option), but it seems to be decreasing in use with the arrival of the Archmage and other good anti-titan figures.
As far as commanders for LG, the Young Master is only worthwhile in a multiple-Githzerai Monk type band. The Couatl has a great commander effect with energy resistance, which can minimize damage from spells such as the Elf Pyromancer's fireball as well as from the attacks of many beaters, including the Marut, Helmed Horror, Efreet, and Red Samurai. It's also handy vs. damaging breath weapons. The Snake's Swiftness is of course another major reason to use it, though the fact that it has other spells gives it much needed flexibility. It's biggest drawback is the fact that it is only Commander 0, which means you need another commander or you'll be losing most of your initiative rolls, which with the new map format has become more crucial than ever.
The Cleric of Dol Arrah is an excellent commander, with good healing spells and a solid commander rating. The Cleric of Yondalla is very cheap, and while it's not much use as a combatant, it gives you an initiative boost and solid bonus to rally checks if you are short on points and need it. The Cleric of Order is also a great commander, with a good commander rating and some nice buffing spells for a reasonable cost. | | | |
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True_Blue
Underboss
2370 Posts
| | 03/14/2006 4:39 PM |
| | Yes definetely check the LG toolkit, but also look at the other toolkits so you know what kind of bands you will be facing on a constant basis. Then you can try to plan on what you are going to do if you face them. | |
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