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kgradert13
Sergeant

909 Posts

04/13/2006 5:31 PM
It's not hard at all to work the system if you wanted to cheat, and I am by no means saying this is what occured, just a way it can be done Set up tournament with 19 fake people and the real player Have some of the faked players always lose, some always beat the lower ones, always lose to the higher ones, and then higher ones that win every match except against the person wishing to cheat or other high players. After a month, replace the lowest X players with new faked names, move the lowest scoring players to the low run, mid players in the middle and the highest stay where they are. Repeat. I don't know how fast you could raise your score, but I bet 1-4 times a week for a few months would boost you up pretty well, even if you are only getting 2-5 points per round after a while. Over 4-7 rounds you could still clean up. Again, this is in no means an accusation, just a way an unscrupulous person could mess with the system.

IanB
Commander

3112 Posts

04/13/2006 5:33 PM
To me that's the real problem if there is something going on here - if the ratings are indeed falsified, they take championship qualification spots away from more deserving players (not me, I'm nowhere close.)

Anson on WotC boards

lalato
Underboss

1546 Posts

Urbana, IL

04/13/2006 6:11 PM
quote: Originally posted by IanB To me that's the real problem if there is something going on here - if the ratings are indeed falsified, they take championship qualification spots away from more deserving players (not me, I'm nowhere close.) Ian, if I listed the top 50 players in the world, I'm sure I could find more than just the Tampa guys that have an inflated DCI ranking. Any one of those people, therefore, would be holding back "more deserving players"? I don't think so. The DCI rankings don't always equate to play skill. That's a known fact. Sometimes there are extreme examples of that. This might be one of those cases. There are examples that reflect the other end of the spectrum too. While I'm not saying that I am a top tier player, I've played and beaten some very good players. I went to Nationals last year, but I didn't get in through the Grinder the first year. I'm a decent player, but not great. I don't practice nearly enough. Would it surprise you to find out that my DCI rating is a lowly 1627? Why? I went 0-3 at Nationals last year with a "fun" band. I didn't have enough time to practice and I didn't feel like playing my Qualifier band so my rating plummeted. I haven't played a sanctioned game since so there hasn't been a way for me to raise that rating. Here's the thing... Instead of kvetching about all of this stuff, I would much rather settle it all at the game table. My sincere hope is that we can get the Tampa guys to come out to major sanctioned events and get them to participate in the local Florida scene. I also hope that they do, indeed, come to GenCon and play at Nationals. All that I see right now is a lot of innuendo (granted they aren't defending themselves and that doesn't look good), but all this does is create acrimony and bad feelings all around. I'm here to have fun with a game I enjoy. While I'm interested in finding out what's really going on here, I don't see anything constructive coming out of this conversation. There are only two people that can change that and they aren't posting here... so continuing this doesn't seem very useful. See you guys on VASSAL. I need to get some practice in. I wouldn't know an "A" Game if it hit me in the ***. [)]

I'm in Urbana, IL

IanB
Commander

3112 Posts

04/13/2006 6:27 PM
quote: Originally posted by lalato quote: Originally posted by IanB To me that's the real problem if there is something going on here - if the ratings are indeed falsified, they take championship qualification spots away from more deserving players (not me, I'm nowhere close.) Ian, if I listed the top 50 players in the world, I'm sure I could find more than just the Tampa guys that have an inflated DCI ranking. Any one of those people, therefore, would be holding back "more deserving players"? I don't think so. If those rankings were achieved through deliberate skullduggery, then yes, they would be.

Anson on WotC boards

Zoons
Underboss

1054 Posts

04/13/2006 7:18 PM
Ohhh. Tampa-gate. Disturbing. But, what can you do? We all have a chance to qualify on our own merrits at a qualifier. When I come in 187th place at mine, I'm not going to complain that some guy in Tampa took my spot.[)] Note: This is kinda easy for me to say. I'm not on the "bubble" by being ranked 30 to 60th.

Never teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig. Champion of the Blink Dog.

robbdaman
Underboss

2380 Posts

04/13/2006 8:47 PM
quote: Originally posted by Zoons Ohhh. Tampa-gate. Disturbing. But, what can you do? We all have a chance to qualify on our own merrits at a qualifier. When I come in 187th place at mine, I'm not going to complain that some guy in Tampa took my spot.[)] Note: This is kinda easy for me to say. I'm not on the "bubble" by being ranked 30 to 60th. I'm not in the bubble either since we have like one sanctioned sealed tourney a month around here. It all comes down to the non-reported tournaments. Lots of the Tampa players would have their rankings drop significantly if the reports for those tournaments they lost badly in were reported. R~

Champion of the Titan ****************************************************************************************************************************************************** Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.....

CSchroder
Sergeant

407 Posts

04/13/2006 9:31 PM
I find it highly unusual that someone is able to pass Kiddoc, Pat and Dagni in only about 2 months, especially as we congratulate Dagni for all his hard work and many victories to get to 1900 plus points in much more time. Like many others, I find it highly improbable that a large Tampa group came together to play more DCI tournament games, more frequently than anywhere else in the country and then burn out and disappear once passing Kiddoc. Jim and I have been trying to build a gaming group since GenCon and we had our largest turnout of 9, last weekend. Only 9, but much better than the 2-4 we got before and I'm drawing on players from 3 states (Maryland, Virginia and Pennsylvania). With people's schedules, we are lucky to get in games once a month. SoCal has a very active group--I believe playing twice a month. And they have a high concentration of top players as evidenced by their great showing at GenCon. Yet somehow this Tampa group was able to generate more DCI points over a shorter period of time than any other group (if there is another group out there, please speak up)--I just don't buy it.[V]

Charles AKA The Beardless One, Proud Member of Team Amish

2004 D&D Miniatures Champion
Kiddoc
Underboss

1797 Posts

The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
Warlord

5628 Posts

04/14/2006 1:43 AM
DCI is flawed to a point, but the big thing is that the people that get in from "big fish, small pond" situations usually go out quick. I really think DCI is the best it can be though. Its not perfect, but its good. On a side, Kiddocs self depritiation is funny. He had crappy luck (pulls) at WF and hes a little out of practice and he preaches that hes done. I played him at WF, I beat him, it was still one of the hardest games I've ever played. He's silly like that :)

Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat.

Mindtrick
Warrior
Warrior

233 Posts

04/14/2006 5:19 PM
In ref to the whole "Gaze All Day" issue, why couldn't his (Ryan's) enthusiasm for that band have come from misdirection instead of an actual feeling of how it would dominate. He knew most of us Orlando guys participated in these boards. He has not posted much here aside from the occasional tournament announcement. I spoke to him about our tournament we hosted before the event took place and he tried to convince me Gaze All Day was his end-all, beat-all solution to Jesse's and Bill Baldwin's dominance in the local DDM scene. I took it to mean he was trying to misdirect me and make me think that warband was worth worrying about. Both he and his brother showed up with a much different warband scheme. I am in no way defending them or claiming to know something more than I do, so take this with a grain of salt. As far as the DCI thing, I am betting WotC/DCI invalidated the tournament we went to at their shop since they have such a suspect record. The tournament we hosted wound up not being sanctioned because the shop we played at dropped the ball.

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DDM Constructed Champion 2006
derry
Warrior
Warrior

268 Posts

04/14/2006 5:33 PM
quote: Originally posted by Mindtrick I took it to mean he [Ryan] was trying to misdirect me and make me think that warband was worth worrying about. Both he and his brother showed up with a much different warband scheme. You have to give him credit for taking this misdirection to all facets of his life. His posts and especially his mastery of language and puncuation has almost no one on these boards not taken in by his effective misdirection. I have met many masters of language and framing a discussion, Ryan is definitely one of the greats. In fact he is so committed to being misunderestimated that he has carried the same mastery into his personal life too (see links provided by Kiddoc above if you want a glimpse into how he is able to stay on theme and within his legend at all times.) Few covert operators with decades of training can subsume their egos to allow even attempts at this kind of dominance of perception. For this reason alone, I salute his 2057 DCI rating. If you even hope to beat him at the championship, you need to start taking him VERY seriously.

Member of the Low Post Count but High Post Content Society

robbdaman
Underboss

2380 Posts

04/14/2006 5:43 PM
quote: Originally posted by derry quote: Originally posted by Mindtrick I took it to mean he [Ryan] was trying to misdirect me and make me think that warband was worth worrying about. Both he and his brother showed up with a much different warband scheme. You have to give him credit for taking this misdirection to all facets of his life. His posts and especially his mastery of language and puncuation has almost no one on these boards not taken in by his effective misdirection. I have met many masters of language and framing a discussion, Ryan is definitely one of the greats. In fact he is so committed to being misunderestimated that he has carried the same mastery into his personal life too (see links provided by Kiddoc above if you want a glimpse into how he is able to stay on theme and within his legend at all times.) Few covert operators with decades of training can subsume their egos to allow even attempts at this kind of dominance of perception. For this reason alone, I salute his 2057 DCI rating. If you even hope to beat him at the championship, you need to start taking him VERY seriously. I'm not sure if this was sarcasm or what but it made me laugh. R~

Champion of the Titan ****************************************************************************************************************************************************** Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.....

Shadow_Fox
Underboss

1751 Posts

Litchfield, MN

04/14/2006 6:08 PM
quote: Originally posted by robbdaman quote: Originally posted by derry quote: Originally posted by Mindtrick I took it to mean he [Ryan] was trying to misdirect me and make me think that warband was worth worrying about. Both he and his brother showed up with a much different warband scheme. You have to give him credit for taking this misdirection to all facets of his life. His posts and especially his mastery of language and puncuation has almost no one on these boards not taken in by his effective misdirection. I have met many masters of language and framing a discussion, Ryan is definitely one of the greats. In fact he is so committed to being misunderestimated that he has carried the same mastery into his personal life too (see links provided by Kiddoc above if you want a glimpse into how he is able to stay on theme and within his legend at all times.) Few covert operators with decades of training can subsume their egos to allow even attempts at this kind of dominance of perception. For this reason alone, I salute his 2057 DCI rating. If you even hope to beat him at the championship, you need to start taking him VERY seriously. I'm not sure if this was sarcasm or what but it made me laugh. R~ Thats sarcasm my friend. I have to agree with Derry. This guy is so good hes even got himself believing all the hype.

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Wish
Sergeant

399 Posts

04/14/2006 7:18 PM
quote: Wow, only open till 9:30, that would mean games have to start around 2pm to finish 6 rounds by then. Who gets off work at 2pm? Apparently 30 people in Tampa? I'm moving there! I wouldn't read too much into that one (not that there aren't other things fishy with the situation). Our FLGS closes at 10pm. Which doesn't mean we weren't there until 12:45 am last night. There's often a marked difference between the "closing time" and when people participating in scheduled events actually leave the store. The situation was even more extreme at the store I frequented in Toledo when I was there - it closed at 9pm in theory, but I don't think it ever actually closed before midnight, no matter what day of the week (it served a large college community, and the owners were regular particpants in the evening games, so there were always people there).

robbdaman
Underboss

2380 Posts

04/14/2006 7:34 PM
My FLGS opens at 10AM and closes at 3AM. Granted a normal life and job would prevent most people from palying DDM all night. R~

Champion of the Titan ****************************************************************************************************************************************************** Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.....

Dwilgar
Warrior
Warrior

215 Posts

04/14/2006 10:35 PM
I was still hoping he would report the results from his War Drums pre-release, but unfortunately, he both pulled the report from his website and the tournament got pulled from the DCI listing. Given the local crew (those with high DCI ratings) did rather poorly at the tourney and adding in the early posts on this thread, I am starting to see a convergence of facts that points to some rather shady action involving the DCI reporting system. Dwilgar

Dwilgar Have/Want List - Reference List Trades Completed: 2003: 3; 2004: Lucky KSU, Bonepinhimer, Puggins, skwave, Lance, War Golem, thomrb, enginer230, agonistes, PatEllis15 Trades Pending:

robbdaman
Underboss

2380 Posts

04/14/2006 11:11 PM
Someone needs to bug Ian to investigate this situation. I'd say it's warranted. R~

Champion of the Titan ****************************************************************************************************************************************************** Successful trades with: Tickparasite, Iyceman, Faragdar The Wise's friend, avrivah, Drakkengi, brucemc, Krush, maniacal_mini_monger, hung4treason, Gandy, NarlethDrider, Kunimatyu, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.....

Olan
Skirmisher

25 Posts

04/14/2006 11:38 PM
Man this kinda reminds me about those big time scandals that happened a few years back in MtG (anyone remember the Theron Martin thing?)... I gotta say while there are ways to screw around with the DCI system, it's still fairly reliable... Besides, I've never seen anything more efficient than that anyway. As far as the Tampa thing goes, I'm with those who say this thing warrants some investigation...

The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
Warlord

5628 Posts

04/14/2006 11:43 PM
Wow I just went through all those links Kiddoc posted. That is very interesting to say the least.

Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat.

TheDarkKnight
Sneak
Sneak

118 Posts

04/17/2006 3:27 PM
A couple of the stores around here have separate gaming rooms. The store might close at 7pm, but gaming might last until 6am. I don't want to play devil's advocate here, but you have to look at all the facts and possibilities. Only the Tampa people will ever really know what really happened and they will always have the suspicion of foul play hanging over them until someone from there shows that they are top calibre at GenCon or some other notable tournament scene.

Dagni
Sergeant

870 Posts

04/17/2006 5:04 PM
I'm quite sure this situation has been brought to Ian's attention. My guess is that not only has he looked into it, he's done looking into it. Suspicion is fine, we can suspect them, ahem, all day. More, we have no real reason to think that Ryan's DCI rating means all that much. Brian, Pat, and myself have all competed at the highest level and against other established players. Ryan hasn't done anything other than at the local level. However, that doesn't mean he didn't earn his DCI rating to the same extent any player can: by beating his local group - a lot. If they stopped playing sanctioned games after he got to #1 ... is that a surprise?! Why sanction them anymore? They achieved everything they might want from their sanctioned games already! It's actually gotten to the point where it bothers me just a bit how quickly we as a group dismiss his DCI points. We don't have to respect him - but I think the DCI rating system deserves more respect than we've been giving it. We should know very well that the top rated South American player - at one time these players were almost dominating the top 10 - may or may not be as good as an established top player like Pat Lynch. Such a player has probably only played against locals, therefore is unproven in the larger scheme. Likewise, such a player could be competing against a group that's in fact much tougher than the SoCal group, for all we know. We can even believe Ryan cheated. That's a personal choice. However, even if we don't give him the benefit of the doubt, we should give Ian Richards the benefit of the doubt. Do we really think that a player's DCI points should be taken away just because there's suspicion of cheating? Because his points have NOT been taken away, he IS the #1 rated player in Constructed right now. We've always known that the DCI ratings aren't the be-all end-all of player skill. So let's accept that, but admit that he's ahead of the rest of us, whether or not you personally put an asterisk after his points. As I was saying, before I got sidetracked, I don't care much about jokes . . . all day. But if you read the thread about myself breaking 1900, you'd have to read very closely to find out that I'm not, in fact the third person to break 1900, but the fourth. That bothers me. Oh, and if you so desperately want him listed lower than the three of us, use Composite ratings of Constructed and Limited together. We all pass him. One last comment: why would we expect him to come on here and defend himself? It's not like we're nice or polite to him or about the situation - ALL DAY. - Dagni

Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club!

PatEllis15
Commander

4462 Posts

04/17/2006 5:42 PM
Robert: I agree with a lot of what your saying. However, the part that bothers me so much is that the one time that Ryan WAS playing with other groups (When Doubtofbudda and some of the other Orlando crew went down), the results didn't get reported. Had that event been reported, I suspect that he would no longer be ranked #1 (as he lost at least twice that day (again from what I understand)). So your entirely right that his ranking up until the unreported events came about could be legit. But we know that after that event, it should be lower. Because they didn't report that event, it leads to obvious questions. Pat E

"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w

Mindtrick
Warrior
Warrior

233 Posts

04/17/2006 6:22 PM
As was stated previously, they DID report the event we went down to (Doubtofbuddah, Niel and myself). The problem is if WotC is investigating them and they post a tournament report that shows the T.O. participating in that same event, WotC will invalidate it. It turns out that Marc did participate in the tournament and he was listed as the T.O., hence the "indalivated" lable in the DCI system and it did not count towards our DCI ratings. I have it confirmed from WotC that the specific event was reported but that it looks to have been marked invalid. Lessen we learned: Don't go to a tournament where the T.O. is playing in it!

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robby
Sergeant

918 Posts

04/17/2006 6:30 PM
Interesting read of a thread. I'm just a spectator, but didn't I read earlier in the thread that there were two Marcs? It is pretty interesting that in all of those tournaments, the one where the "TO" Marc played instead of the "player" Marc is the the same one where out-of-towners showed up. I have nothing to add to this, but that as I read through this two comparisions leapt to mind and stayed firmly there: Barry Bonds and Chaotic Good.

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Felagund
Sergeant

922 Posts

04/17/2006 6:32 PM
quote: Originally posted by Kiddoc in the pizza is one timeflies CD one T-shirts and one stickers and one CD-ROM musicvideos If this guy can can fit a t-shirt and two cd's into a pizza, then it's hardly surprising that he can climb to the top of DCI constructed in two months.

Champion of Gnomes

PatEllis15
Commander

4462 Posts

04/17/2006 6:54 PM
quote: Originally posted by Mindtrick As was stated previously, they DID report the event we went down to (Doubtofbuddah, Niel and myself). The problem is if WotC is investigating them and they post a tournament report that shows the T.O. participating in that same event, WotC will invalidate it. It turns out that Marc did participate in the tournament and he was listed as the T.O., hence the "indalivated" lable in the DCI system and it did not count towards our DCI ratings. I have it confirmed from WotC that the specific event was reported but that it looks to have been marked invalid. Lessen we learned: Don't go to a tournament where the T.O. is playing in it! Then I'll back off anything more. Playing locally till the cows come home to drive up your rating is a flaw of the system, but not a flaw of those in Tampa. While the 2 Marc issue is outstanding, what concerned me most was the appearance of impropriety with not reporting the one event where people other than the locals showed up. If that isn't necessarily the case, then I'll watch his ranking with one eye brow raised in doubt, but say nothing more. Pat E

"Games evolve. Otherwise we'd still be pushing rocks around the dirt. What do you think the cavemen said when some dude showed up with sticks?" - Chairman7w

neilasaurus
Sneak
Sneak

134 Posts

04/17/2006 7:26 PM
If anyone had any delusion that DCI points meant anything, I was rated below 1600 and beat the number 1 player in the world. Although if they reported the first time I beat all of them, I surely would have been above 1600. To be fair they did come to Orlando once, and they were certainly not to blame for that not being reported. So maybe they are just incredibly lucky. For the sake of argument, assuming they earnestly tried to report the game where we came down there, there is something seriously wrong at DCI headquarters to let them post 1000 games to drive themselves to the top, and then when they finally lose start invalidating their games. For all I know, they are actually innocent of any shenanigans, but if so someone else at WOTC is doing something bizarre. Maybe someone there hates all the players that should be competing for #1? Maybe they are just insane? Is there a sinister conspiracy to deny me DCI points? When I went to the store in Tampa, I was a bit surprised to later learn that 20+ person tournaments had been held there. There were only like 6 people when we went. And the store did not seem big enough to fit 20 people inside. Maybe the other 14 people got tired of losing all the time. And I have certainly been to gaming tournaments in Sunny Florida where some of the games were played outside. Maybe they are so clever they deliberately lost all their games at Orlando once told it wouldn't be reported at the start. I can't imagine why they would purposefully lose when we went there though. I am really curious to see if they show up at the Orlando qualifier. They are already qualified for nationals, so don't need to, unless they want to win a free trip. Maybe they have actually practiced to the point where they almost deserve their ratings and will spanker us. Somehow doubt it though. But if they even show up to risk some of their precious DCI points that will surely make everyone think better of them.

neilasaurus
Sneak
Sneak

134 Posts

04/17/2006 8:34 PM
Not sure if this will work, awfully long url but very appropriate to this topic: http://webapp.wizards.com/tournaments.aspx?ratingformat=47&eventlevelcode=0&countryid=®ionid=&marketingareaid=&city=Tampa&postalcode=&distance=&status=All&startdate=2005,1,1&enddate=2005,12,29&action=search&brandid=31&page=1

lynchpt
Sergeant

926 Posts

04/17/2006 9:47 PM
To answer Dagni's trivia question, Patrick Snyder from ID was the second person to break 1900. He is currently at 1774, so a return to 1900 is not out of the question for him. Pat Lynch

Dreamblade Rules Advisor

Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
Warlord

7055 Posts

Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.

04/17/2006 10:19 PM
To add to the trivia bit, I have met and played Pat Snyder. I was amazed to see how someone could be ranked number one in the world (at least at the time of the deathknell prerelease)in anything, and be from Idaho. (I'm from here, and all we do is potatoes) He's a very competent player, who rose up the rankings, as previously stated, by whomping his local game. Every week. The difference for me lies in that eventually the locals caught up, and although he's still amongst the top 2 or 3 players there, he does still play, and lose occasionally. Also, the store there is freakin tiny. My living room is about the same size. Seriously. But we still fit 20-22 in for each prerelease. So some of the tampa arguments don't hold water for me. I've seen legitimate similarities. Do I think tampa was completely on the up and up? I'll just say I have concerns.

Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen."

kgradert13
Sergeant

909 Posts

04/17/2006 10:51 PM
Since the Midwest Open has never been reported, most (Shivan Darkeyes being the exception) of our local players rankings are completely locally gained. Not including Shivan, we have 1 hovering around 1800, myself (after the update) around 1715-1720, and another about 1700. If that's how they did it, great. I just hope they show up to Gencon so people can get a measure of them. When it's all said and done, unless I happen to be one of the final 2-3 players who doesn't get the ranking invite, it really no longer matters to me. I think I've said what I wanted, and if the DCI has looked into and not taken action, it's not my place to judge them either I suppose.

TheDarkKnight
Sneak
Sneak

118 Posts

04/18/2006 12:10 AM
Every system has flaws. The best thing about the way WotC does the championships for DDM is that your DCI ranking doesn't necessarily preclude you from playing. If you are really good enough to play in the championships, but your DCI is too low for an invite, you can qualify via the qualifiers. Unless you don't have one in your area. In the heart of the country, our closest one is more than 8 hours away. I don't think I really begrudge anyone for gaining lots of points by playing only their local group, heck most of us only play our local group 99% of the time. I just wish there was a qualifier here in KC so I could qualify and not rely on my DCI number. Like I have mentioned in other threads, I don't feel comfortable making it where currently rank. It would be a shame if I am at Gencon and several people with higher DCI rankings didn't show up and I still couldn't play. I would like to see the invites pass down to those in order who actually show up at Gencon to play. If the field will support 80 people, why play on 57 when you have some worthy players who just missed the cutoff mark in DCI points? Does that make sense or I am rambling?

Professional Fan of DDM
Shoe
Sergeant

804 Posts

04/18/2006 12:37 AM
quote: Originally posted by Teflon Jeff To add to the trivia bit, ... I was amazed to see how someone could be ranked number one in the world (at least at the time of the deathknell prerelease)in anything, and be from Idaho. (I'm from here, and all we do is potatoes) Hey now, I was from Idaho once... (did I say that out loud?)

Professional Fan of DDM

Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant

606 Posts

04/18/2006 4:38 AM
I asked the question about Maxminis members playing Ryan in Dagni's Congratulations thread. I may have inadvertently started a ruckuss. I asked because I'll be in Tampa soon. And wanted to know if these guys were as cool as the folks here. Sam says their nice guys, so I'll stop by their store if I can. I'd like to play some new people, and whether or not these guys are the greatest players in the world doesn't matter. I just want to skirmish. If I encounter any shady types maybe I'll figure out some way to sneak off to Orlando. I neither have, or foresee having a DCI rating anytime soon. So if I win sweet, if I lose ah well, I got to skirmish. [:D] It is unfortunate that some members here feel that cheating (if it's ever occured) on ratings hurts them. I'm not sure this is entirely correct though. We give weight to some peoples opinions not based on their DCI ratings but rather on their track record and reputation. As for the invites, if I was going to GenCon I'd play the Grinder anyway just to see if I could make it through and to get some practice on some of the games best. Why else would one go to GenCon other than to skirmish [)]. Besides, we all owe the Silver Dragon guys a small debt. The Gaze All Day gag has been running on these boards for the last 6 months. Thats a Bit with legs!

Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes) Champion of the Aaracokra Herald Of Snig Goblin King

Master of the
Awesome Sauce
Teflon Jeff
Warlord
Warlord

7055 Posts

Idaho. Yes, we have Gamers in Idaho.

04/18/2006 10:56 AM
quote: Originally posted by Shoe quote: Originally posted by Teflon Jeff To add to the trivia bit, ... I was amazed to see how someone could be ranked number one in the world (at least at the time of the deathknell prerelease)in anything, and be from Idaho. (I'm from here, and all we do is potatoes) Hey now, I was from Idaho once... (did I say that out loud?) Wait what part? when? Details, DETAILS!

Official Delegate, Wizards of the Coast Against The Giants Called Shot: Huge Green Dragon Icons Called Shot: Gargantuan Prismatic Dragon "Rejoice, for bad things are about to happen."

neilasaurus
Sneak
Sneak

134 Posts

04/18/2006 12:21 PM
I think some of you are missing one of the main points. They reported 3 games a week for months, got to the top, people from Orlando went there, beat them, and all of the sudden that game was invalidated. There is no doubt I was screwed by this, as I said before, I was rated below 1600 and would have gone far far above it if the games I played in Tampa had actually counted as promised. The only question is whether this was due to intentional shenanigans on their part or just dumb luck for them in which case DCI screwed me. However there is no doubt someone screwed me. I don't think anyone would be too happy about driving 2.5 hours only to get cheated. As for going to Tampa. I guess if you don't even have a DCI number there is nothing for them to screw you out of, so you might as well go and be able to return home and say you beat the number one player in the world. However I am certainly never going there again, because I have a strong suspicion that if by some fluke I lost to them, it would all of the sudden be reported, whereas if I win they will make sure it is sent in such a way it is invalidated. I guess the question is, these people in Idaho who got high rankings, if I showed up in Idaho and beat them would they report it accurately so it wasn't invalidated? I can only assume they would. My experience in Tampa has shown me that they would not. The point is that if you want to show up in their store and knock them down a few pegs, you would be wasting your time. The game is going to be invalidated. It doesn't matter whether it is the stores fault or DCI headquarters, either way the game isn't going to count. The only way they could fall from their lofty heights is if they go to an event outside their store that is reported. I hope everyone sees the difference between an overinflated rating that is just because no one better has showed up to play you, and an overinflated rating because anytime people better show up and beat you it is not reported (and you own the store).

Shivan Darkeyes
Warrior
Warrior

266 Posts

04/18/2006 1:29 PM
First a story of Star War Miniatures: Once upon a time, there was a guy named Brad Reddick. https://webapp.wizards.com/ratings.aspx?action=search_member&personid=2045856&brandid=32 He was the type of guy to play Yu-Gi-Oh and crush the competition (mostly because he was older, actually played the game strategically, and spent more money on his cards than other younger children). This guy decided that he loved Star War and SWM was the play it was at and started spending his entirely disposable income on SWM. This guy convinced a good portion of his Yu-Gi-Oh playing friends mostly around the ages of 13-17 to play SWM. The owner of the store sanctioned these tournaments and Mr. Reddick's rated claimed to the lofty heights of 1850+ leaving him 4th place in the world in constructed. Enter John Siadak (me). I have played in several DDM tournaments at this time and since I was formerly working at the store that did all this sanctioning I felt like I should try to play this guy, to see if he really was all that good (he claimed to be unbeatable since he had never lost a game). I played him in a tournament and lost. He wasn't amazing. The game played a lot like DDM and I had played many MANY DDM players that were better than he was and decided I should try again. After this I proceeded to play him 8-9 times over the course of the next 5-6 months and I never lost another game to anyone, both the kids that came every once and awhile, or the new SWM scene that had several accomplished players from ages 18-30, including him. I didn't play nearly as often as he did thus his rating is still much higher than mine; possibly because this is a large flaw in the DCI system. The most ironic part about the whole thing is that he walked around bragging that he was "Number 4 in the world" and how he was "unstoppable". Eventually after I started beating him regularly he claimed that I "just used cheap warbands" or that I "didn't play something original and fun" against him which is why he always lost. His rating was so high because he played against (initially) little children. He played in a very isolated location and was able to jack his points through the roof through near-constant play. The DCI system is imperfect, but IF players play on a national level with some degree of regularity it works very well. Even if players only play at a "local" level even local metagames start to work themselves out. Players don't get that many points most of the time because if one person's rating gets too high eventually he (or she) will lose to another player whose rating is very very low because that player will inevitably beat him or her. Additionally, practice improves play skill and eventually even the "bad" players will become decent at the game because they have played so many times and have gotten stomped by the same pieces and strategies over and over. To the issue of the "Tampa Crew" I don't know much besides what is posted in this thread, but after reading it I have to conclude that it is 100% possible that the ratings were obtained legitimately and the DCI noticed inconsistencies in current tournament practices which led to the invalidating of more recent tournaments. The TO playing in the tournaments would be such an inconsistency. Maybe there is some shadiness on the part of the TO, but that does not mean the players are bad people, it probably just means that the TO doesn't have his act together (as is consistent with Kiddoc's other information provided). Just my 2 cents. Shivan Darkeyes (John Siadak)

13th Place at the 2005 DDM Championship in GenCon

lynchpt
Sergeant

926 Posts

04/18/2006 2:25 PM
Speaking strictly of the "music" links Kiddoc provided - "doesn't have his act together" is the absolute kindest possible way anyone could characterize Mr. Michalski's attempted business model[:)] Did you read those links? Pat Lynch

Dreamblade Rules Advisor

The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
Warlord

5628 Posts

04/18/2006 2:39 PM
quote: Originally posted by lynchpt Speaking strictly of the "music" links Kiddoc provided - "doesn't have his act together" is the absolute kindest possible way anyone could characterize Mr. Michalski's attempted business model[:)] Did you read those links? Pat Lynch Painfully yes I did.

Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat.

neilasaurus
Sneak
Sneak

134 Posts

04/18/2006 5:34 PM
You guys still aren't getting it. Their ratings aren't bs because they only play locally. Their ratings are BS because whenever someone shows up at their store and beats them THE GAMES DO NOT COUNT. That is 100% different than what you are saying. They sucessfully got 100 games accepted by DCI and then the Orlando crew shows up, crushes them at their own tournament, and they all of the sudden forget how to fill out a tournament report? Do you see how if you only report tournaments that you win, that is without a doubt cheating? Do you see how easy it is to get your own tournaments intentionally invalidated because you don't like the result when you own the store? The prize for their tournaments should be a TShirt that says "I beat the #1 DDM player in the world, and all I got was this lousy tshirt."

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