Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
    
 | | 05/15/2006 4:33 PM |
| So, many of us thought that Helmed HOrrors might be running all over the place at the qualifiers.
Did the Marut/Cuoatl single handedly kill the concept, or are there more reasons? | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 05/15/2006 4:41 PM |
| This is a good question. After the MI qualifier, I'd kinda wished I'd run my 6-activation Quad-HH band. There were a LOT of bands there that I'd have done well against.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Pegasus Knight
Sergeant
896 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 4:42 PM |
| | I'm not so sure they vanished, really. Yeah, Sacred Watchers are more plentiful at the moment, and Marut/Couatl as a band core is more common, but the info so far shows plenty of Helmed Horrors and Chraals, in about equal measure. | |
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NightMoor
Sergeant
448 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 4:50 PM |
| The Dragon Shrine map really cuts their effectiveness down against regular armies, they get outdamaged by CE beater bands (who conveniently like to take the Dragon Shrine map), and Marut/Couatl is pretty good against them.
That said, there are plenty of Helmed Horrors flying around these days. I counted about 9 or 10 total at the Toronto qualifier, and it seems plenty enough Horrors are still present in many warband lists. They certainly are good units. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 4:52 PM |
| We don't have much data yet (only 4 qualifiers so far), but up to now they are the second most commonly appearing unit in the Top 4.
Here is the current Top 10 list:
Sacred Watcher 15
Helmed Horrors 6
Couatl 5
Duergar Champion 5
Kobold Miner 5
Timber Wolf 5
Cleric of Order 4
Goblin skirmishers 4
Mialee 4
Orc Warrior 4
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I am not gone. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 4:54 PM |
| It sure doesn't look like that when you read the reports.
Interesting what facts really say versus perception.
Still, in looking at the last two tourneys, multi-HH bands (bands that really featured this creature as the core of the band) seem to be less prevalent than many of us anticipated. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 4:56 PM |
| | Yeah, all of the Helmed Horrors were from the European Championship. I think the next two weekends will be particularly key in determining how the metagame is developing. | |
I am not gone. | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 4:59 PM |
| | Nice avatar, btw, Jesse. | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 5:03 PM |
| Thanks!
I just wish I had some sort of photoshopping skills so I could take the real picture (much better looking) and turn it into some sort of appetizing icon.
Ah well. | |
I am not gone. | |
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SneakyJoeKDB
Sergeant
593 Posts
Utah
| | 05/15/2006 5:04 PM |
| | Aramil and Dragonshrine! They have been effectively nerfed. Also, dont forget, a Couatl is a walking dragonshrine map and then some. | |
"Like a thief in the Night"
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 5:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
We don't have much data yet (only 4 qualifiers so far), but up to now they are the second most commonly appearing unit in the Top 4.
Here is the current Top 10 list:
Sacred Watcher 15
Helmed Horrors 6
Couatl 5
Duergar Champion 5
Kobold Miner 5
Timber Wolf 5
Cleric of Order 4
Goblin skirmishers 4
Mialee 4
Orc Warrior 4
This is the total number of figures appearing including multiple ones from one band, though, so I think it is a fairly misleading measure.
5 couatls means that 4 or 5 bands probably featured couatls; 6 helmed horrors might mean only 2 bands. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 5:27 PM |
| Indeed.
Though I think the basis for Zaukrie's original post is V's claim there would be more Helmed Horrors in the Top 4 then number of players in the Top 4. Thats obviously been proven wrong.
To get a more complete look at the data you can go to my thread at the top of the forum. I've even divided things out based on warband type, so people can get an idea as to what is doing the best.
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I am not gone. | |
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robbdaman
Underboss
2380 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 5:48 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Thanks!
I just wish I had some sort of photoshopping skills so I could take the real picture (much better looking) and turn it into some sort of appetizing icon.
Ah well.
Wow! I just noticed you didn't have a Couatl. You traitor! [:p] What are you trying to do with the pic? I can whip something up easy.
R~ | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 05/15/2006 5:49 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Indeed.
Though I think the basis for Zaukrie's original post is V's claim there would be more Helmed Horrors in the Top 4 then number of players in the Top 4. Thats obviously been proven wrong.
Just you wait, you naysayer! They'll make a comeback, I swear!
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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robby
Sergeant
918 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 6:02 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
We don't have much data yet (only 4 qualifiers so far), but up to now they are the second most commonly appearing unit in the Top 4.
Here is the current Top 10 list:
Sacred Watcher 15
Helmed Horrors 6
Couatl 5
Duergar Champion 5
Kobold Miner 5
Timber Wolf 5
Cleric of Order 4
Goblin skirmishers 4
Mialee 4
Orc Warrior 4
Just for grins, by points:
Sacred Watcher 270
Helmed Horrors 270
Couatl 210
Duergar Champion 165
Cleric of Order 96
Timber Wolf 25
Mialee 24
Kobold Miner 15
Goblin skirmishers 12
Orc Warrior 12
Doesn't change it much, but it is interesting to look at it that way.
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 6:16 PM |
| Actually, it was partly Vrecknidj's prediction, and partly I thought HGB and HH would be the core of more bands.
Construction, meta analysiss - yuck - me bad.
Actually playing the game, not so bad.
Anyone want to do an anlaysis of Niles for me, in case I want to head there in June? | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 6:17 PM |
| And for more semi-useless data, the top 10 figures come from these sets:
Harbinger: 2 (Cleric of Order, Orc Warrior)
Dragoneye: 2 (Mialee, Goblin Skirmisher)
Archfiends: 0
Giants of Legend: 0
Aberrations: 0
Deathknell: 2 (Couatl, Timber Wolf)
Angelfire: 0
Underdark: 3 (Duergar Champion, Helmed Horror, Kobold Miner)
War Drums: 1 (Sacred Watcher) | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 05/15/2006 7:48 PM |
| Certainly, anyone who even considered running HH's without a magic weapon source should stand up and take notice of the Michigan qualifier...roughly 25% of the warbands were Marut/Couatl. Even with the Dark Moon Monk, I agree with Dave that I wouldn't feel comfortable running with less than 4 HH's, and that opens up a bunch of bad matchups vs. the rest of the field.
Anyway, I really like my chances vs. HH's running Marut/Couatl...now I just gotta find the perfect Marut/Couatl warband for the mirror match... | |
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"The focus is sharp in the city..."
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Felagund
Sergeant
922 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 2:13 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by IanB
And for more semi-useless data, the top 10 figures come from these sets:
Harbinger: 2 (Cleric of Order, Orc Warrior)
Dragoneye: 2 (Mialee, Goblin Skirmisher)
Archfiends: 0
Giants of Legend: 0
Aberrations: 0
Deathknell: 2 (Couatl, Timber Wolf)
Angelfire: 0
Underdark: 3 (Duergar Champion, Helmed Horror, Kobold Miner)
War Drums: 1 (Sacred Watcher)
Mialee is actually Archfiends, not Dragoneye. | |
Champion of Gnomes | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 2:43 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Felagund
quote:
Originally posted by IanB
And for more semi-useless data, the top 10 figures come from these sets:
Harbinger: 2 (Cleric of Order, Orc Warrior)
Dragoneye: 2 (Mialee, Goblin Skirmisher)
Archfiends: 0
Giants of Legend: 0
Aberrations: 0
Deathknell: 2 (Couatl, Timber Wolf)
Angelfire: 0
Underdark: 3 (Duergar Champion, Helmed Horror, Kobold Miner)
War Drums: 1 (Sacred Watcher)
Mialee is actually Archfiends, not Dragoneye.
My data was even more useless than I thought apparently! | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Sharn Inquisitor
Underboss
1623 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 3:53 PM |
| | Having played a Marut, dual-Couatl before I can say yes...HH's have serious problems with that build and other Marut builds. | | | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 05/16/2006 5:46 PM |
| When Alex was testing his band, I beat him with two bands: one was HHx4, Dark Moon Monk, Timber Wolf; the other was the Marut/Couatl variant that I took to Ypsilanti.
Two other bands came very, very close. One had Eye of Gruumsh x3 (I don't recall the rest off the top of my head), and the other was the very weird Ghaele Eladrin, dual-Large Air Elemental band.
Of all those, I think that the Quad Helmed Horror gave him the most fits. The Dark Moon Monk got off three magic weapons before he took her out, and the Wolf got me victory points for two rounds.
The Ghaele Eladrin band was a blast to play. Incited is not as big a problem as it looks--you don't have to move them 20 squares, just because you can. I put them both in the woods and waited until the second round. In the second round, he was close enough, and I was mobile enough, that I dropped them behind enemy lines and messed with all his tech pieces. I think a good Ghaele build could have done reasonably well in Ypsilanti, if it got paired with enough of the zillions of Marut bands out there.
But, I'm seriously considering a Quad Horror for Niles. Low tech, few tricks, just sturdy survivability. After the Monk and Wolf are gone, you are losing things in 45-point chunks. There's nothing to protect, there's nothing fancy to do (like keeping a Standardbearer in the right place, or making sure your caster can see only the right piece).
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 6:28 PM |
| | Bring all the lawful bands you want to Niles, that's what I say. | |
Fastest dropping DCI ranking on record!
Champion of Juiblex | |
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jgsugden
Commander
4320 Posts
Walnut Creek, CA
| | 05/16/2006 6:48 PM |
| Helmed Horrors are still viable. They just have bad match-ups. How many figures don't have a bad match-up?
One reason you don't see many 3X or 4X Horror Bands is that some people have trouble getting that many HHs. When you use moer than 2 of a particular rare in a warband, you have to go through some efforts to get the figures you want. | |
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Kevizoid
Sergeant
373 Posts
Southern California
| | 05/16/2006 6:52 PM |
| | Bringing Slaads are you Zaukrie :P | |
SoCal Colluder | |
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Zaukrie
Underboss
2007 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 7:46 PM |
| | I'm goint to post pretty much every band and quesiton I can think of. It is the opposite of being quiet - if you talk all the time, no one listens to you. I do admit to loving the death slaad. | |
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Knight of the
Round Table
Thenameless
Warlord
12507 Posts
The Fortress of Solitude
| | 05/16/2006 7:47 PM |
| | The Helmed Horrors are still out there. A quad showed up at our tournament last Saturday, and ended up 2nd or 3rd. Dual-Marut won the show. | |
Over 270 successful online DDM trades. | |
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rhane
Underboss
1412 Posts
| | 05/16/2006 8:26 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by rhane
Certainly, anyone who even considered running HH's without a magic weapon source should stand up and take notice of the Michigan qualifier...roughly 25% of the warbands were Marut/Couatl. Even with the Dark Moon Monk, I agree with Dave that I wouldn't feel comfortable running with less than 4 HH's, and that opens up a bunch of bad matchups vs. the rest of the field.
Anyway, I really like my chances vs. HH's running Marut/Couatl...now I just gotta find the perfect Marut/Couatl warband for the mirror match...
Just an addendum...Triple Horror is the A-1 warband that I "metagame" against. I consider it first when thinking about possible matchups. Sure, I'm tempted to jump on the Marut hate bandwagon, but any warband I bring will be solid vs. Helmed Horrors first and foremost. | |
Rhane
"The focus is sharp in the city..."
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Runelord151
Underboss
1203 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 2:59 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by doubtofbuddha
Thanks!
I just wish I had some sort of photoshopping skills so I could take the real picture (much better looking) and turn it into some sort of appetizing icon.
Ah well.
Wow, who painted that.......[:I] | | | |
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Runelord151
Underboss
1203 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 3:11 AM |
| And to add some small value to the conversation....
IMO the tripple HH build is the bare minimum needed at this point. The shear staying power of the figure makes it very forgiving to newer players if one makes a mistake or two.
Again the main problem with the figure seems to be it's relatively low damage output. That said, the staying power lets them do more damage over a longer amount of time (and hit they will, as long as the dice aren't against you!). Hill Giant Barbs, Aspects of Kord, any CE beater band short of quad is not a problem if you can engage them en mass.
I have not had the pleasure of going up against a marut or marut/coautl band as of yet, so my view may be slightly off. | | | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 05/17/2006 7:51 AM |
| One other observation.
I've notice that many multi HH warbands add a Dark Moon Monk or Kobold Sorcerer for the magic weapon on the HH. It just seems to me that this takes another hitter out of the mix. Depending on Commander and fodder choice, one could add a Doogie Champ or Zak Rak or Chraal for the cost. I've always been in favor of an extra hitter versus adding the tech piece for magic weapon.
Just my $0.02
[:p]
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 05/17/2006 8:30 AM |
| I went just the opposite direction. Instead of having 2 or 3 HH and 1 or 2 other pieces (plus a commander, usually), I chose 4 HH and a Dark Moon Monk just because Aramil, Dwarf Artificer, Couatl, DR, and the Dragon Shrine are (taken all together) so plentiful. There are too many ways to get a HH down to 5 + 5 fire, or 10 + 0 fire, or 5 + 0 fire, and then you've just got really hard-to-kill mosquitoes.
The magic weapon guarantees that the HH will do at least 10 damage per hit.
I wonder about the Dungeons of Blood (or whatever it's called). Lots of squares for 19-20 crits is really nice for pieces immune to crits....
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 05/17/2006 9:21 AM |
| That doesn't help against he glut of Maruts much though does it?
One thing I'll point out - when I first ... agreed to disagree ... with the statement about more HHs than players Vrecknidj made, it was a bit tongue in cheek - but not by much. I do think that people have largely figure out how to deal with them ... and that most bands are built (including things like map choice) with HHs in mind. Still, as a core beater piece that shows up in multiples in bands, their numbers really can increase (more so than the Drider, which was the basis for the more-figure-x-than-players statement ... the drider showed up in singular or dual quantities in a band - not three or four like a Helmed Horror).
Remember, the other thing the HHs don't really like are things that out-damage them consistently. FBs, Eyes of Gruumsh, etc. can concentrate damage and elminiate HHs completely pretty darn fast. | |
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