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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
    
United States
 | | 06/09/2006 8:18 AM |
| Has the appearance of so many Couatls in the tournament scene so completely harmed the potential of using energy damage? I haven't seen Chraals, Efreet, Gauths, fireballs, scorching rays, lightning bolts, or any of the usual culprits in numbers like I used to, and I'm quite sure it's the almost ubiquitous Couatl.
On the one hand, the tournament scene seems to be the most balanced (between the factions) that it's ever been. On the other hand, I wonder if there are too many Couatls out there these days.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Orion72
Underboss
1917 Posts
| | 06/09/2006 8:31 AM |
| | I don't think so. The Couatl is the first thing I'd try to kill off in any LG band anyway, more for the swiftness than the elemental resistances. Besides, everyone except LE has cheap, effective Countersong. Ironically, LE has the best elemental damagers... | | | |
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Eliminator53
Sergeant
628 Posts
| | 06/09/2006 8:49 AM |
| | They probably are the reason that gauth's don't show up as much anymore, but many of the pieces in the meta are probably more to blame. HH is immune to the three most pevalent spells that damage, Marut is immune to the Gauth's paralysis as well, Sacred Watchers have thier Incorporeal, etc. The Couatl contributes to it, but not as much as it appears. I do agree though that this is the most balanced that the meta has ever been, and that helps the game alot. | |
Champion of Tavern Stripper
Knight of Knights
Squire of Death Giants
Somethin-or-another of Big Arse Swords | |
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RobWreck
Warrior
295 Posts
| | 06/09/2006 10:58 AM |
| I agree with you 100% that there are too many Couatl's around. It's a shame that fear of facing a Couatl (which is unavoidable if you're going to place well in a tourney) has virtually eliminated energy damage-based bands as an option. The couatl is GREATLY underpriced for what it brings to LG... effective immunity to elemental damage, 5+ Snake's Swiftness' and a back-up commander (albeit not much of one) to provide a rally attempt, all for less than 50 points? Who wouldn't run one of those in their LG band?
Rob | |
Champion of Aspect of Pelor
If the Founding Fathers of our country were conservatives, we'd still be colonies of England... | |
| Hero of Skirmish
doubtofbuddha
Commander
3371 Posts
| | 06/09/2006 11:03 AM |
| | In contrast, I like what the Couatl brings to the table. It prevents Chraals and Helmed Horrors from completely dominating, and allows for a slightly more balanced metagame. Without them, it would definitely be a Helmed Horror and Chraal show as the California Open implied... | |
I am not gone. | |
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jacksonm
Warlord
5560 Posts
River City
| | 06/09/2006 11:09 AM |
| | Knowing I'm going to face Couatls has certianly affected my warband choices in certain situations. Then again I use the Couatl a lot too so I can't complain. [:)] | | | |
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johnny.quest
Underboss
1386 Posts
| | 06/09/2006 11:26 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Eliminator53
They probably are the reason that gauth's don't show up as much anymore, but many of the pieces in the meta are probably more to blame. HH is immune to the three most pevalent spells that damage, Marut is immune to the Gauth's paralysis as well, Sacred Watchers have thier Incorporeal, etc. The Couatl contributes to it, but not as much as it appears. I do agree though that this is the most balanced that the meta has ever been, and that helps the game alot.
Agreed, and I'd add Dragon Shrine as a contributing factor. | | | |
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RobWreck
Warrior
295 Posts
| | 06/09/2006 12:38 PM |
| But the Dragonshrine is only 5 points of resistance, not 10 like the Couatl. A standard 20 pt fireball still hurts someone relying on a Dragonshrine to protect them, but is completely neutered by a Couatl. Plus, a Couatl stops ALL energies, even sonic, which the Dragonshrine doesn't offer. The Dragonshinre requires winning two rolls... map init and then placement init, and even that can be countered by taking out the guy sitting in that zone. The Couatl, otoh, is mobile, more effective, more resiliant and has all those beautiful Snake's Swiftness's to throw around.
Rob | |
Champion of Aspect of Pelor
If the Founding Fathers of our country were conservatives, we'd still be colonies of England... | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/09/2006 1:13 PM |
| And, on top of it all, the Couatl stands a fair chance when the titan it's supporting falls--provided it falls late enough. If there are any sonic orbs left, there are very good odds that they'll do the full 15 damage to something; and, with a 22 AC, there's a decent chance it can handle an AoO or two.
It's not so great against a based Frenzied Berserker or anything like that, don't get me wrong. But if it's not out of spells and the endgame approaches, it's still an excellent piece to have left.
At 42 points, it's a little too good, I think. Honestly, I think we'd see almost as many if they cost 48 points.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
| Duke of Spoils
greyhaze
Warlord
7737 Posts
| | 06/09/2006 3:37 PM |
| Honestly, LG needed something like the Couatl to boost its faction. I'm glad to see it come around.
I'm just sad that it had to be at the expense of my favourite LE faction.
And why couldn't they have made Dragonshrine add +5 elemental damage when standing in particular areas? Why did it have to nerf energy instead. Bah. | |
Greyhaze's DDM Spoilers
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Called Shots: Frost Giant in Dangerous Delves. | |
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PerpetualStudent
Sneak
173 Posts
| | 06/09/2006 3:54 PM |
| I agree that the Couatl is the top choice piece for LG right now, and may continue to be for some time because of all the things people have mentioned already, but I am not sure that it is bad. Couatl is an amazing support piece, and a commander on top of that, but is he that much better than the Orc Wardrummer is for CE? I see more LG bands without Couatl than without the Wardrummer - Sword Archon bands have done well and do not use him, and while Aspect of Maradin bands have not really broken into the top, there are many being played at the qualifiers and they do not use a Couatl. This can not be said for the CE bands I have see.
I am just wondering what piece will be dominant for CE and LE. The Inspiring Marshal held that spot in CG for a while, but he obviously is not good enough or we would see more CG. And LE seems very diverse in choice of hitters, support, and commanders.
Overall, I am on the fence. I like the Couatl. | |
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Low Key
Underboss
1231 Posts
| | 06/09/2006 3:55 PM |
| Its true that LG needed the help, but Couatl offers too much in one package. It wouldnt be so bad if it was just the Energy Resistance, or just the spells. But since it gives both, its a little over the top.
However, I dont think it harms the metagame. In fact I like what it does. The problem it causes (IMO) is that its really hard to justify using any other LG 40p commander in its place. Without it I'd imagine the Half-Orc Paladin would see alot more play, for example. | |
Champion of the Sarrukh | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 06/09/2006 3:56 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by greyhaze
Honestly, LG needed something like the Couatl to boost its faction. I'm glad to see it come around.
I'm just sad that it had to be at the expense of my favourite LE faction.
And why couldn't they have made Dragonshrine add +5 elemental damage when standing in particular areas? Why did it have to nerf energy instead. Bah.
Well, this way it makes the couatl less needed, but if it added damage it would actually make it more needed- and possibly give LG a huge advantage, as it could essentially up the damage of it's creatures by five with no actual cost to them, all just by winnning init. | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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iluvxtina
Underboss
1501 Posts
Spain
| | 06/09/2006 4:17 PM |
| | Nowadays,playing energy damaging creatures is a suicide.In the last tournament I fought two couatl warbands of a total of five battles (and It was only me!).Simply,the number 1 in LG. | |
LOVE THIS GIRL | |
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Mortusbard
Sergeant
427 Posts
North Carolina
| | 06/09/2006 4:32 PM |
| You know I have been reading the boards for a little while now and really enjoy the game but pre during after.
The one thing that I see as a piece get more use and exposure it genrates more and more hate.
When I joined it was the Gith Monk/Youngmaster then the Helmed horror, then Marut now Coautl.
I am not saying that some of these pieces are not too powerful.
What I am saying is that in the greater scheme of things they balance each other out more quickly than we would think.
I personally Like the Coautl and think it is a great piece. If you are seeing to many of them. Adjust what you play assassinate it and let loose with the energy. | |
Unto Death We Strive,
From Birth unto the Dust, | |
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eMpTy Kay
Underboss
1068 Posts
| | 06/09/2006 4:39 PM |
| I would point out that the Coutal is from Deathknell. That was a long time ago, so it isn't so much the Coutal that is unbalancing, it is the fact that other units have come out that work well with the Coutal. There is the Marut, and Aspect of Kord to take advantage of the snake swiftness. There has not really been any good damage dealing unit that could be in LG until now. That is what is making the Coutal so good.
What will happen? People will build bands that are able to take the coutal out. And there are units that can do it now. Try to stop an archmage from Dimension door behond you and banish the coutal. True such a tactic would have problems since the archmage will probably be swarmed and die, and trading a 98pt unit to kill the coutal is not worth it, but my point is there are ways of stopping the threat. | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/09/2006 4:40 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Mortusbard
When I joined it was the Gith Monk/Youngmaster then the Helmed horror, then Marut now Coautl.
Yep. Once upon a time it was "Oh my God, the LSD is broken!" At about the same time people were calling for a ban on Orc Champs and Graycloaks. Shortly thereafter it was the Inspiring Marshal. Heck, once upon a time, it was Displacer Beasts and Axe Sisters.
I suppose that the end of Marut/Couatl will eventually come. But I'm sick unto tears of fighting them at tournaments (or preparing to).
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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IanB
Commander
3112 Posts
| | 06/09/2006 4:41 PM |
| | What's sort of interesting about that is except for that first-set stuff, the pieces that people complain about seem to be having shorter and shorter reigns as the overpowered piece du jour. The LSD and orc champ were on their thrones for a lot longer than the gith monk. | |
Anson on WotC boards | |
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Lord_rock
Underboss
2045 Posts
Portland OR
| | 06/09/2006 5:03 PM |
| I would have liked to have seen the Coutal give outsiders spell res and have a legions resistance spell personally...i think that taking one round to cast it and having one less spell slot when used would have made up for the coutal's other greatnessess...
Coutal really hurts LE...but also keeps them in check...i hate to play em but still manage to beat em...just glad marut coutal isn't huge around here... | |
Rock Bottom Pricing:
Arcane Archer 30, Centaur Hero 67, Human Cleric of Bane 25, Gold Champion 34, Death Knight 52, Goblin Blackblade 9, Silentwolf Goblin 7, Orc Raider 10, Dwarf axefighter 9, Healer 9, Thaskor 65, Aspect of Demogorgon 71, Ogre 9, Fire Giant 79, Human Wanderer 7, Drunken Master 18, Barghest 12, Longstider Barbarian 27, Longtooth Barbarian 22, Frost Giant 76, Ravenous Vampire 42, Large Earth Elemental: priceless | |
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Mortusbard
Sergeant
427 Posts
North Carolina
| | 06/09/2006 5:14 PM |
| Its not the length of reign that has people upset i think but the frequency of cloning a winning idea. There is also a lot more poeple playing now then there was in deathknell when i started.
I am not trying to belittle the complaint of certain bands just that if you design a counter band it has a better chance.
Marut Couatl is a tough band but it is not unbeatable.
Helmed Horros
GAS they all had ways to take care of them
CE Quad regarless of the lineup will always be viable.
Inspiring MArshall Plus whatever will be viable.
Couatl will always be around.
As we add more pieces to the lineup these bands will stay in some areas and change in others thats the nature of the game.
If we watch we can figure what the next band will be by what can handle this one.
Helmed Horror counter GAS Whiched Countered Trip Frenzies and CE Quad
Marut/Coautl counters Helemd Horrors and the list goes on.
As for the length of reign there is a lot more diversity in the arena. | |
Unto Death We Strive,
From Birth unto the Dust, | |
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trollbill
Warrior
176 Posts
| | 06/09/2006 5:18 PM |
| | I remember when people were complaining abouth the Couatl being overpriced because it was only a Commander 0. Of course, that was also when the most damaging LG creatures could only do 15 pts. in a single swing. | |
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SYB
Warrior
328 Posts
| | 06/10/2006 10:56 AM |
| I have a personal dislike for the Couatl, but not because of the energy protection. My annoyance with the Coautl is that it steals CGs thunder. I think CG would be more competitive if the Couatl didn't have the ability to steal two of its best pieces into LG (Kord and Rikka). Basically nobody plays a CG Kord band because LG does it better with the Couatl. With the exception of Brady Bunch, Rikka shows up more often in LG than CG. Energy protection is cool and powerful, but not unbeatable. The ability to pull over CG outsiders is really what makes the Couatl an unreasonable piece.
-SYB | |
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/10/2006 11:44 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by eMpTy Kay
I would point out that the Coutal is from Deathknell. That was a long time ago, so it isn't so much the Coutal that is unbalancing, it is the fact that other units have come out that work well with the Coutal. There is the Marut, and Aspect of Kord to take advantage of the snake swiftness. There has not really been any good damage dealing unit that could be in LG until now. That is what is making the Coutal so good.
What will happen? People will build bands that are able to take the coutal out. And there are units that can do it now. Try to stop an archmage from Dimension door behond you and banish the coutal. True such a tactic would have problems since the archmage will probably be swarmed and die, and trading a 98pt unit to kill the coutal is not worth it, but my point is there are ways of stopping the threat.
Bingo. Couatl's showed up at Nats last year, but the JA wasn't as good of a target as a Marut/Kord/Ballista etc, what happened LE ruled the day. When HH's were ruling the tourney scene (and Dave made his bold prediction about them) the Couatl existed.
It's more than the Couatl, there are just alot of things stacked against those figures right now.
Chraals- Dragon Shrine hurts them, Marut hurts them, Rikka can put the smack on them, maps like teleport open up nasty backdoors to get to the commander. Couatl help? no it doesn't but it isn't the only strike.
Efreets- Never made a large showing. Might have had helmed horrors stayed as prevelant because they hit helmed horrors for breakfast. But besides that we have never seen that many Efreets out there. Note an efreet is a pretty good way to take down a Couatl if there is an opening, two swings forces that MC.
Gauths- Gauths had a bit of a hay day with the Dark Flames band, but there is simply to much anti parlysis stuff for it to be worth it. Duergar champs, Helmed Horrors, Chraals, Sacred Watchers, Maruts, Wardrummer adding to the Giant doesn't help either. Basically all they want is CG now a days. Coautl hurts, but thats not the total package.
Fireballs- There was a bit of a rave about inspired pyro/frenzy around nats last year, but it didn't make a great show and has never been that dominant of a build. Maps that cut off first rd fireballs and helmed horrors don't help.
Lightning Bolts- There is just not alot of bands that I would use Dark Naga over Raksasha on right now. Couple new aberrations for it, that can change.
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Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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warty_nosed_goblin
Underboss
1384 Posts
| | 06/10/2006 2:07 PM |
| | funny, I remember when the Dark Naga came out that it was thought to be the final nail in the coffin of the rakshasha... | |
Call me: W.N. Gobo!
originally posted by grim:
While he is clearly insane, he does have a point. | |
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Dral
Skirmisher
29 Posts
| | 06/10/2006 5:54 PM |
| | I would love to see them ban the Couatl, just to aggrevate Jesse | |
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| The Great
Choco Monster
Ghendar
Warlord
13090 Posts
Mud Lick, Kentucky
| | 06/10/2006 6:11 PM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
On the other hand, I wonder if there are too many Couatls out there these days.
Dave
I think maybe there is, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. The cycle will eventually change, maybe as soon as the next set. | |
WotC - making me wish more and more every day for a return to the TSR days. :(
I fought the snark and the snark won. I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!
Some of my favorite Maxminis quotes
I actually love to be swallowed. - Posted By gss_000 on 09/04/2007 2:32 PM
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I dont mind butting heads every once in a while. It makes thing interesting. Thats why I'd be heartbroken if Ghendar ever left - Posted By Count Dooku on 04/03/2006 11:58 AM
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Zyla
Underboss
1201 Posts
| | 06/10/2006 6:21 PM |
| | I think the Couatl will still be a Tier 1 piece for some time yet, what may change is the Marut might be replaced with something else, but the Couatl will stay. | |
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Kalrin
Sneak
90 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 12:22 AM |
| The Couatl isn't overpowered. It's costed just about right and decently. It just happens to synergize really well with other aggressively costed pieces making for warbands which are greater then the (well-costed) pieces which make them up.
Same goes for the Marut.
Although I've pretty much decided that I like including an Efreeti when I run an LE Quad. It's actually a nice bit of tech. | |
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| The Defenestrator
AesophDarkfable
Warlord
5628 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 3:51 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Kalrin
The Couatl isn't overpowered. It's costed just about right and decently. It just happens to synergize really well with other aggressively costed pieces making for warbands which are greater then the (well-costed) pieces which make them up.
Same goes for the Marut.
Although I've pretty much decided that I like including an Efreeti when I run an LE Quad. It's actually a nice bit of tech.
Damage is never tech. The Efreeti is a figure that can deal ranged or up close damage, but Tech always does something else. Just my take, but yeah I stand firmly. | |
Im out- find me on Hordelings if you want to chat. | |
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Sirohk
Commander
3938 Posts
USA
| | 06/11/2006 7:42 AM |
| ROCK PAPER SCISSORS [:0]
IMO the Couatl is well costed. What makes the Couatl a monster is the Snakes Swiftness it can use on heavy hitters like AoK, Marut, Ballist, etc... [:p]
BUT, the Coutal can be beaten. Base it with two hitters (hopefully not in the woods) and put at least 15 or more damage on it. If it moves smack it again and maybe casue a rout. Four hits for 15 damage takes it out. [}:)]
My $0.02
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Sirohk, the Bard of Heartstone
Knight of the Rahshasa's
And Crusader of the Zakya, Ak'chazar, Naztharune, and Naityan Rakshasa's | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/11/2006 9:45 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by AesophDarkfable
Bingo. Couatl's showed up at Nats last year, but the JA wasn't as good of a target as a Marut/Kord/Ballista etc, what happened LE ruled the day. When HH's were ruling the tourney scene (and Dave made his bold prediction about them) the Couatl existed.
And the rest of your analysis is right on too. What I figured would happen this season (and which didn't) is that people would be afraid of certain kinds of bands, and default to a defensive posture. I have gone back to wanting to play HHx4 or HHx3 at least fifty times this season. I keep practicint with them, and they do well. The HH bands are sturdy, that's for sure--but, their damage output in today's scene, with tons of Aramils, DRs, and fire-resistances, is so low, that even though they last, they don't rack up enough victory points fast enough. They can win qualifier slots (as obviously they have), but, other bands have superior point-attaining power, and that's what wins.
But, I do think it's the Couatl that's done this. If there weren't Couatls, there wouldn't be Kord or Rikka in LG. If there weren't Couatls, there would have been fewer than 25% of the Maruts we've seen this season. If there weren't Couatls, there would be so many fewer LG bands, that there would be almost no Aramils. All those taken together spell "anti-HH" (in addition to other things [:)]).
I agree that in each season we may see something like this (i.e. the Chraal last year, the Drider Sorcerer the year before). I'm not sure that there's a way to drop the Couatl from its position of prominence like there's keep a way to drop the others (LSD, Graycloak, etc.).
The combination of resist 10 all, snakes's swiftness, and backup commander status, means that it's here to stay. I know that the designers might have developed pieces that will make Marut/Couatl and Kord/Couatl bands far less powerful by next year's tournament season--but I'm kinda afraid of what that would mean.
Balance is the way to go; and I think that's where the game is headed. (After all, several qualifiers had one of each faction in the top 4--that's balance.)
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 11:24 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Sirohk
ROCK PAPER SCISSORS [:0]
A certain amount of that is unavoidable and useful in game balance. But it can easily get out of hand. If no warband is without at least one bad matchup, that's fine. Bad matchups are an interesting challenge- auto-losses, however, are not. A single auto-loss can remove an otherwise viable warband from tournaments entirely. It's a fine line to walk sometimes.
The Couatl is not in any way broken. It does make me uneasy when a faction cannot build without a certain piece, but the last LG that kicked my butt was a Sword Archon/SW band with no Couatl. Still, the Couatl is pretty much ubiquitous, and popular here.
You just can't build a tourney band without accounting for Couatls. I now go out of my way to avoid putting elemental damage in my bands. The last time I built a LE band, the only elemental damage I had was the Dark Naga's lightning bolts- I didn't mind that because he has sorcerer spells and I could cast Slappy instead if need be.
I never had much luck with the Efreet. His fire spells would be an excellent boon, but far too many things resist or ignore them. Flight and reach are great- AC 19 and HP 65 are not. Every time I send him into melee he routs or dies before he can do anything. And why, why does the Efreet not have Magic damage? He's a friggin genie, for cryin' out loud! DR is just one more thing that nudges him out of tourney contention. I'll take a Justicator for only 6 points more.
I'll get to the other two, but I will say this: LG needs the Couatl. I can see how it is an important support beam for balancing the metagame. It wouldn't be such a problem for LE if we were less dependent on elemental damage. I'd like to see a wizard as a replacement for the Gauth, with his spells done in such a way as to support the hitters without relying nearly as much on saves or elemental damage. I'd like to see less "10+5 Fire" and more "15 magic". Or how about "20 magic", is that possible on something less than 75 points?
No, LE is not exactly weak. I just think we're too easy to just shut down completely. It's hard to build something in LE that's as robust as CE Quad, Dual HGB, Couatl/Marut, or Sarced Watchers. | |
Mine is an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
-Wash, Firefly | |
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cerberuspuppy
Warrior
288 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 11:48 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Vrecknidj
What I figured would happen this season (and which didn't) is that people would be afraid of certain kinds of bands, and default to a defensive posture. I have gone back to wanting to play HHx4 or HHx3 at least fifty times this season. I keep practicint with them, and they do well. The HH bands are sturdy, that's for sure--but, their damage output in today's scene, with tons of Aramils, DRs, and fire-resistances, is so low, that even though they last, they don't rack up enough victory points fast enough. They can win qualifier slots (as obviously they have), but, other bands have superior point-attaining power, and that's what wins.
Exactly. I'd noticed this too. "Don't Die" is not a victory condition. Point denial works only if you score more points than the opponent. HH can kill things, but not as well as DCs or Zakyas. The things that nerf HH are prevelant enough that I think its tourney strength is overrated.
It is actually possible to face an opponent (who in no way intended to make a "hate band") who can reduce your HH to dealing zero damage. (Couatl + DR + Aramil) You can concieveably take Triple HH to a tourney and never deal more than 10 damage with a single swing in five games. Those are dramatic examples, but the point holds- the HH just can't deal enough damage.
It might be possible use multiple HH in such a way that doesn't rely on big damage- lock down opponents with Shuluth and pick them apart at your leisure maybe? But that doesn't look very reliable either. | |
Mine is an evil laugh! Muhahahaha!
-Wash, Firefly | |
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Shiva_0
Sneak
79 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 8:44 PM |
| This is my problem with the Couatl more than anything else: I take issue when one piece dominates competitive play in a faction, specifically when just about everyone is playing clones of all the same squads over and over. It's mainly Couatl/Titan in LG and multi-HH in LE. I don't mind when every squad of a faction uses one particular mini, for example the Wardrummer in CE, as long as that piece doesn't force you to design the squad a certain way. Competitive Couatl and multi-HH squads are based around those pieces, as opposed to the WD which costs little enough that you can play pretty much whatever you want with it and it can still be competitive.
I'm just so bored I could cry with all the Couatl/Titan and multi-HH squads. It's like music: typically once you play a song to death, you don't want to hear it for awhile. There is a qualifier at my LGS next weekend, but I'm not going to play in it because I know it will just be a cluster-F-bomb almost exclusively of all the usual suspects that I've had to deal with for too many games already and it's ceased to be fun for me. If you're in it for the competition, or the prizes, or simply the chance to get free entrance to Gencon, then more power to you, have at it, but I'm playing purely for the fun of it and I think narrowing the field of play to primarily a handful of specific squads and their clones because of the current "meta" hurts the game on the whole even if it does bring balance in competition. The only thing that brings me hope is further sets who will bring more power and variety among the factions, so that, even if we end up stuck facing cookie-cutter squads and the "Attack of the Clones" there will at least, maybe, be more than a handful of choices competitively speaking.
Specifically to answer the Couatl question: Yes, I think the Couatl is too cheap for its effectiveness, and yes it put the hurt on energy damage attacks, but no I don't particularly think it's broken as it does go down relatively easily.
I don't think any of the current squads are anywhere close to unbeatable, I just hate playing against the same stuff constantly. | |
"I am created Shiva, the Destroyer; Death, the Shatterer of Worlds."
- the Bhagavad-gita
"I just want to destroy everything"
- Johnny Rotten
Seeking to become the next Incredible Hulk since August 2005.
Champion of The Justicar (Not to be confused with that ****er Justicator) | |
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Wrackspawn
ChristopherGroves
Warlord
6093 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 8:50 PM |
| So Dave are you nodding your head to my greater predictive power? [)]
It's the combination of Couatls and Dragon Shrine that put elemental damage off the map. For me though, this is a good thing. It makes alot of the figures that I like much more usable ... Warchanter, etc.
When DQ comes out let's you and I put our heads together. I'm not playing at nationals, but it might be fun to make some behind the scenes predictions between the two of us (or a few more) and see how they pan out ... | |
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Prince o the Raven Banner
Sergeant
606 Posts
| | 06/11/2006 9:55 PM |
| What Shiva_0 said.
And I love the Couatl on it's own merits. A good sculpt with a great paintjob. An obscure yet utterly useful monster as it's base. A thoroughly useful skirmish piece that does alot well without being overpowered at any one thing. An appropriate costing, though Dave is right it'd still be prevalent at 48 points. Finally a commander effect that is both useful and balancing. All on a figure that is vulnerable without being squishy. | |
Two trades completed!! (Krush,Hides From Hurricanes)
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Herald Of Snig Goblin King | |
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Gunthar
Commander
2938 Posts
| | 06/12/2006 12:03 AM |
| | It's also a piece that lacks a commander rating. Commander 0 is a drawback. I HATE, yes HATE Commander 0 as a solo commander. When that crucial initiative comes up, being down 4, or more, in teh roll is not a position I like to be in, so a second commander is needed. | |
Champion of Prit(Wemic vindication is here)
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Completed trades: Aspect of Cheese (Love that moniker), Tickparasite, Elderthing, Lalato, Sodj, Grimoire, SmilinIrish, Zeb, RWarehall,Link, wikkawikkawa, Auramancer, Rommers, HK, Ivid5,Qillan_dvra, Puggins, Arcabius, Ironfist Boulderbender, Robby, Corim Danex, monster_slayer, DNDJUNKIE, Kelemvor, Krush, ckissee, Massawyrm, hockey fan, Wish, Uninspiring Lieutenant, vtloon x2, Vrecknidj, Darthpoke, WakeXX, AnarionZell, lycusmike, papabear5 and umpteen local trades with board members
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Dagni
Sergeant
870 Posts
| | 06/12/2006 7:44 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by Shiva_0
and I think narrowing the field of play to primarily a handful of specific squads and their clones because of the current "meta" hurts the game on the whole even if it does bring balance in competition. The only thing that brings me hope is further sets who will bring more power and variety among the factions, so that, even if we end up stuck facing cookie-cutter squads and the "Attack of the Clones" there will at least, maybe, be more than a handful of choices competitively speaking.
I understand this viewpoint a little bit. However, I'm a little surprised you make it sound so bad. In LE right now, Duergar/Zakyas seem about as strong as Helmed Horrors. People refer to Couatl/titan a lot, but there's huge differences between Aspect of Kord and Marut. Likewise, somehow Couatl/Kord/Ballista bands can get referred to as another Kord/Couatl band. Even though the Ballista makes the warband play far differently than anything else.
I mean, the entire first year of this game was CE Beater dominated with LSD as the other option. Eventually Frenzied Berserkers were added in as a third option. Now, by contrast, there's a shocking double-handful of reasonably competitive bands, and, well, I don't think things will ever get much more impressively balanced than they are right now.
- Dagni | |
Proud member of the GRUUMSH fan club! | |
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Vrecknidj
Warlord
10493 Posts
United States
| | 06/12/2006 8:12 AM |
| quote:
Originally posted by ChristopherGroves
So Dave are you nodding your head to my greater predictive power? [)]
For now, I am the padawan, and you are the master. For now.quote:
It's the combination of Couatls and Dragon Shrine that put elemental damage off the map. For me though, this is a good thing. It makes alot of the figures that I like much more usable ... Warchanter, etc.
Once I got this, I figured that this, combined with the arrival of the Wardrummer, could really put CG back into play. Interestingly, my only loss at the Niles qualifier was to a CG band (three missed conceal rolls against FB).quote:
When DQ comes out let's you and I put our heads together. I'm not playing at nationals, but it might be fun to make some behind the scenes predictions between the two of us (or a few more) and see how they pan out ...
Count me in.
Dave | |
Knowledge Arcana editor issues 5-9, Phoenix Lore Magazine editor, assistant editor for Rite Publishing;
My Trade Thread and My Reference Thread; Winner of WBC IV, IX and XIII; Rule #0: bshugg is always right! | |
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Avatar of the Tank
Newtoncain
Commander
2985 Posts
Land of 10,000 taxes
| | 06/12/2006 10:34 AM |
| The Couatl is really getting annoying to me. I'm just getting sick of seeing it "ALL the Time". Couatl/Titan is a top band along w/ GAS.
Quad LE or Tri-Horrors and some CE beater bands still have a chance(CG is still Tier 2 unless you have sweet dice). But its these 2 types of top LG bands that get the map they need that hurts the other factions slightly.
The Couatl/Kord/CoDA/WFBG is a very sturdy warband. I saw way too many of these at Niles yesterday.
I guess let the couatl (and LG this year) rule the roost for the championships. Unless WotDQ has some Uber unit that tips the scales away for LG. | |
They just don't know what's good in life...Conan, tell them what is good in life.
To rip the boosters. To count the minis spilled out before you, and to hear the indifference of the women... | |
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